The DEBT... The Reality of Being a DENTIST!

[Cold Front]

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So almost every pre-dent is so stressed about DAT scores, interviews and getting into a program.

.....

Where is all this hard work leading to financially?

.....

Majority of general dentists with EXPERIENCE make $200-300k pre-tax. Which is about $12-15k/month post-tax. Do you know how much of that goes towards student loans?

.....

Majority of pre-dents applying this cycle will more likely get into a program that charges $100k+/year in tuition and cost of living, some as high as $150k a year. The debt goes up every year while in school (no more subsidies), from years 1-4, by 3-5% (the surprise factor). The total debt to finish dental school, if you finish school, and after “compounding” interest today is “500k-700k+ for majority of schools, specially the new schools. Yes, military is an option, but over 90% of dental school graduates do not enter the military. Yes, 10-20% of you might be lucky to go to a cheaper school - but the debt is slightly lower, at $300-500k in 2019 (not in the future).

.....

This level of cost and debt is very likely a financial disaster than none of the dentists pre-dents shadowed ever discussed with, and would certainly not be discussed at the interviews. So, I post this to find out in the pre-dent forums... Would you still pursue dentistry with all these flashing red lights?

 

[CGtoDentistry]

Hey Cold Front! Non-traditional here. I would still pursue dentistry, but that is because of the following factors being kept in mind:

• As a military veteran with 100% access to the Post 9/11 GI Bill, the cost is severely negated at public schools and a few private schools that participate and have generous yellow ribbon funding. The GI Bill covers all tuition and fees at public schools.
• I'm debt free. Since the military paid for my undergraduate education I have no student loan debts, and recently paid off the low-interest loan I took when I received a military commission.
• I still need the necessary science prerequisites
• I think there's something incredibly rewarding about serving others and interacting with different members of a population. I haven't been out of the military too long and I can sense already how corporate life is different

Here are some challenges I'm seeing potentially. Would love your perspective:

• I'm 28 years old currently. That would put me around mid-thirties when I graduate dental school. I'm open to the variety of ways I could practice. Dentistry/health care are one of those fields where there's tons of flexibility. I could do corp, open my own office, go back into the military/public health service, etc.
• 4 years of school is a rather large opportunity cost, even if the debt becomes negligible thanks to the GI Bill. I'm currently working at a cyber security firm and am in the low 100K range. Once I get a year of experience my market rate will go up to about 150-160K. More so potentially if I get hired at one of the FAANG firms due to stock options. Monetarily, that's potentially losing out on 400-600K a year I calculate. Plus benefits and all of that jazz
• I live in one of the major metro areas and love it. It's nice not needing a car. Taxes are high for sure, but thanks to being debt free I'll get close to maxing my 401K this year as well as my IRA. And I'm unmarried w/out kids so this is the spot to be for dating
• Shelf-life of tech. I like learning and everything but it's difficult in tech. Lots of changes, need to job hop, etc. I know I don't want to be staring at command line prompts or IDEs when I'm in my 40s

Thoughts with these factors? Maybe I'm starting to feel my age haha

 

[Bigjt1420]

So almost every pre-dent is so stressed about DAT scores, interviews and getting into a program.

.....

Where is all this hard work leading to financially?

.....

Majority of general dentists with EXPERIENCE make $200-300k pre-tax. Which is about $12-15k/month post-tax. Do you know how much of that goes towards student loans?

.....

Majority of pre-dents applying this cycle will more likely get into a program that charges $100k+/year in tuition and cost of living, some as high as $150k a year. The debt goes up every year while in school (no more subsidies), from years 1-4, by 3-5% (the surprise factor). The total debt to finish dental school, if you finish school, and after “compounding” interest today is “500k-700k+ for majority of schools, specially the new schools. Yes, military is an option, but over 90% of dental school graduates do not enter the military. Yes, 10-20% of you might be lucky to go to a cheaper school - but the debt is slightly lower, at $300-500k in 2019 (not in the future).

.....

This level of cost and debt is very likely a financial disaster than none of the dentists pre-dents shadowed ever discussed with, and would certainly not be discussed at the interviews. So, I post this to find out in the pre-dent forums... Would you still pursue dentistry with all these flashing red lights?

Luckily, I go to a school where I get in-state tuition after my first year, and because of that, my COA will be around $250K.

But I agree with you, if I were to have gotten into a school like USC or NYU, I wouldn't have gone to dental school. $500K Cost of Attendance for those schools, before even starting with the interest, is not worth it in my opinion. All that said, it really does depend on the situation most of the time. One of my parents is a dentist who owns a private practice -- dentistry is worth it for me. However, others who are going to be $500K in tuition debt and not have the fortunate opportunity to walk into a practice like I do -- maybe not so much.

It depends on many, many factors and I'm sure there are many students applying that understand this. Unlike our parents generation, many people my age (mid-20's) can see and appreciate the ballooning cost of education in this country, we aren't naive.

 

[deleted903013]

many people my age (mid-20's) can see and appreciate the ballooning cost of education in this country, we aren't naive

If this were true, nobody would bother applying to NYU and USC. It's hard for young people to grasp compound interest until they finally start paying it. Some people are waking up but not fast enough.

 

[macsak]

Hey Cold Front! Non-traditional here. I would still pursue dentistry, but that is because of the following factors being kept in mind:

• As a military veteran with 100% access to the Post 9/11 GI Bill, the cost is severely negated at public schools and a few private schools that participate and have generous yellow ribbon funding. The GI Bill covers all tuition and fees at public schools.
• I'm debt free. Since the military paid for my undergraduate education I have no student loan debts, and recently paid off the low-interest loan I took when I received a military commission.
• I still need the necessary science prerequisites
• I think there's something incredibly rewarding about serving others and interacting with different members of a population. I haven't been out of the military too long and I can sense already how corporate life is different

Here are some challenges I'm seeing potentially. Would love your perspective:

• I'm 28 years old currently. That would put me around mid-thirties when I graduate dental school. I'm open to the variety of ways I could practice. Dentistry/health care are one of those fields where there's tons of flexibility. I could do corp, open my own office, go back into the military/public health service, etc.
• 4 years of school is a rather large opportunity cost, even if the debt becomes negligible thanks to the GI Bill. I'm currently working at a cyber security firm and am in the low 100K range. Once I get a year of experience my market rate will go up to about 150-160K. More so potentially if I get hired at one of the FAANG firms due to stock options. Monetarily, that's potentially losing out on 400-600K a year I calculate. Plus benefits and all of that jazz
• I live in one of the major metro areas and love it. It's nice not needing a car. Taxes are high for sure, but thanks to being debt free I'll get close to maxing my 401K this year as well as my IRA. And I'm unmarried w/out kids so this is the spot to be for dating
• Shelf-life of tech. I like learning and everything but it's difficult in tech. Lots of changes, need to job hop, etc. I know I don't want to be staring at command line prompts or IDEs when I'm in my 40s

Thoughts with these factors? Maybe I'm starting to feel my age haha

stay in tech

 

[BluntForceTrauma]

If this were true, nobody would bother applying to NYU and USC. It's hard for young people to grasp compound interest until they finally start paying it. Some people are waking up but not fast enough.

Amen and hallelujah

 

[FanOfCostco]

Don’t forget that every pre dent from California wants to practice in California. 550k in debt and they want to be working in LA or SF for 25% or less in collections.🤣

 

[BasicG]

Imo a lot of the applicants are too invested into dentistry at this point. After prepping for dent school for 4 years, they'd rather go into 500k of debt than start from scratch and find another career path

 

[Cold Front]

Imo a lot of the applicants are too invested into dentistry at this point. After prepping for dent school for 4 years, they'd rather go into 500k of debt than start from scratch and find another career path

So using that logic, a dental school debt of $500k plus daily interest is not high enough. Where would you draw the line for 4 years of prep to not proceed with the cost of dental school? $800k? $1M? More? Undergrad and specialty program debt are not included.

Many pre-dent courses overlap with pre-med, pre-pharmacy, and many other health fields. The only field that has 3:1 student debt to income ratio is dentistry, while more and more dentists graduate with 4:1 ratio every year.

 

[deleted942432]

So using that logic, a dental school debt of $500k plus daily interest is not high enough. Where would you draw the line for 4 years of prep to not proceed with the cost of dental school? $800k? $1M? More? Undergrad and specialty program debt are not included.

Many pre-dent courses overlap with pre-med, pre-pharmacy, and many other health fields. The only field that has 3:1 student debt to income ratio is dentistry, while more and more dentists graduate with 4:1 ratio every year.

If you truly want to help, instead of talking on a predent website, take action. Join the ADA and lobby to congress against high cost of dental education. You are complaining to the wrong crowd.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

Great post as always, Cold Front. Unfortunately, for the most part, it falls on deaf ears.

It’s concerning how unconcerned pre-dents are about this. But then again, that’s what the schools want

 

[ab117]

Don’t forget that every pre dent from California wants to practice in California. 550k in debt and they want to be working in LA or SF for 25% or less in collections.🤣

This one always weirds me out, you see the same post in the predent forums all the time. Hey guys, I’m 100% sure I’ll never consider doing anything but being a dentist, what do you think of my school list? UCLA, USC, Western, maybe UCSF and Pacific but maybe not cause that’s hella NoCal, also there’s no possible way I can leave my family in Cali for 4 whole years like thousands of other predents who go OOS, and btw I already have a gravestone lined up in San Diego so there’s no way I’ll ever practice outside of SoCal.

 

[Cold Front]

If you truly want to help, instead of talking on a predent website, take action. Join the ADA and lobby to congress against high cost of dental education. You are complaining to the wrong crowd.

The same ADA that’s accrediting new programs with high tuitions? Nope!

 

[Cold Front]

Great post as always, Cold Front. Unfortunately, for the most part, it falls on deaf ears.

It’s concerning how unconcerned pre-dents are about this. But then again, that’s what the schools want

It can be attributed to arrogance (why don’t you complain to ADA and not pre-dents!), pride, defensiveness, and unwillingness to admit the mistakes. Maybe it’s the bad advise from parents, friends and the “old” dentists they shadowed that supersedes everything younger dentists are warning them about, that the ROI in dentistry is no longer attractive and is a financial trap.

If a pre-dent had 500k plus interest to blow... there are many ways to be ahead financially than a dentist - at least for the first 10-15 years in the profession. The pre-dents are growingly becoming minions for dental schools.

 

[321931]

This one always weirds me out, you see the same post in the predent forums all the time. Hey guys, I’m 100% sure I’ll never consider doing anything but being a dentist, what do you think of my school list? UCLA, USC, Western, maybe UCSF and Pacific but maybe not cause that’s hella NoCal, also there’s no possible way I can leave my family in Cali for 4 whole years like thousands of other predents who go OOS, and btw I already have a gravestone lined up in San Diego so there’s no way I’ll ever practice outside of SoCal.

I lived in California for a decade. I have many college friends and my parents reside in the Bay Area. I also practiced for about 3 years in California.

I couldn't make it work. Making average dentist salary on 5-6 days a week. Alternating hours 8-5, 10-8, working saturdays 8-5. Seeing 1/3 of my income go to rent, another 1/3 going to loans, 1/3 going to taxes.... I was literally living paycheck to paycheck on a dentist salary. I contemplated asking my parents for help for a downpayment for a starter home in the bay area for 1 mil... I contemplated buying a starter home in tracy for half a mil and commuting 1+ hour day one way...so 2 hour commutes working 5-6 days a week.

I mean is it THAT bad? No...but my friends who went out of state had a better lifestyle. 4 days week, a starter house, literally double/triple my CA income, traveling on trips, and were making enough to have a decent amount of savings at the end of the month.

I moved out of California 3 years later. Now I work 4 days a week, have 5 weeks off a year, literally doubled my income, have a nice starter house that would of cost easily 1.0+ mil plus in the bay area, and I have made a plethora of friends in my area that rivals my bay area buds. Oh and I have savings meaning if there is a recession on the way, I can chill out and not worry about anything. Good luck if you are over-leveraged in the bay area.

My bay area dental friends are still "grinding" as they call it. But life''s to short to be "grinding." And I know what their definition of "grinding" is. It means working 5-6 days a week, don't have any savings in the bank, living in a house with 4 roomates and paying 2000$ in rent for a bedroom while the landlord rakes in cash... but have a bunch of instagram photos of Boba and food giving the appearance that everything is all good.

Dentistry is a good job, you just really have to manage your finances, your debts, your expectations- and of course- where you want to live.

 

[mrdeez]

If you truly want to help, instead of talking on a predent website, take action. Join the ADA and lobby to congress against high cost of dental education. You are complaining to the wrong crowd.

Attacking the problem at the pre dent level gives the added benefit of reducing saturation.

 

[FanOfCostco]

This one always weirds me out, you see the same post in the predent forums all the time. Hey guys, I’m 100% sure I’ll never consider doing anything but being a dentist, what do you think of my school list? UCLA, USC, Western, maybe UCSF and Pacific but maybe not cause that’s hella NoCal, also there’s no possible way I can leave my family in Cali for 4 whole years like thousands of other predents who go OOS, and btw I already have a gravestone lined up in San Diego so there’s no way I’ll ever practice outside of SoCal.

I heard grave sites are expensive and only going up. Maybe it’s a long term investment?

 

[FanOfCostco]

I lived in California for a decade. I have many college friends and my parents reside in the Bay Area. I also practiced for about 3 years in California.

I couldn't make it work. Making average dentist salary on 5-6 days a week. Alternating hours 8-5, 10-8, working saturdays 8-5. Seeing 1/3 of my income go to rent, another 1/3 going to loans, 1/3 going to taxes.... I was literally living paycheck to paycheck on a dentist salary. I contemplated asking my parents for help for a downpayment for a starter home in the bay area for 1 mil... I contemplated buying a starter home in tracy for half a mil and commuting 1+ hour day one way...so 2 hour commutes working 5-6 days a week.

I mean is it THAT bad? No...but my friends who went out of state had a better lifestyle. 4 days week, a starter house, literally double/triple my CA income, traveling on trips, and were making enough to have a decent amount of savings at the end of the month.

I moved out of California 3 years later. Now I work 4 days a week, have 5 weeks off a year, literally doubled my income, have a nice starter house that would of cost easily 1.0+ mil plus in the bay area, and I have made a plethora of friends in my area that rivals my bay area buds. Oh and I have savings meaning if there is a recession on the way, I can chill out and not worry about anything. Good luck if you are over-leveraged in the bay area.

My bay area dental friends are still "grinding" as they call it. But life''s to short to be "grinding." And I know what their definition of "grinding" is. It means working 5-6 days a week, don't have any savings in the bank, living in a house with 4 roomates and paying 2000$ in rent for a bedroom while the landlord rakes in cash... but have a bunch of instagram photos of Boba and food giving the appearance that everything is all good.

Dentistry is a good job, you just really have to manage your finances, your debts, your expectations- and of course- where you want to live.

And don’t forget that you have to pay 15 cents for your 1 dollar taco at jack in the box to pay for restaurant employee health insurance.

 

[Cold Front]

“None” of the pre-dents that are applying to dental school this cycle know what their first year (2020-2021) tuition and fees will be. Let that sink in for a second.

They will not know until they are accepted and in most cases pay a non-refundable deposit, and are few months away from their first semester of dental school. They will not know what their second year tuition and fees until they finish their first year of dental school. And so on for year 3 and 4.

Hypothetically speaking, what “if” schools tell pre-dents that tuition went up 10% or even 20% after they got accepted into a program. Would the pre-dents withdraw from the program? Ofcourse not! Schools raise their tuition and fees at 4-5% range because that’s a low single digit number that can be argued to be inflationary - but when it happens over 5-10 years, it’s equivalent to 100-150k in additional debt to earn a degree.

 

[mmc12]

Maybe all of those dental students from CA who wanna reside in CA after graduation would have been better of going to medical school instead.... I don't think physicians are affected so much by saturation in major cities. Can anyone correct me?

 

[BasicG]

So using that logic, a dental school debt of $500k plus daily interest is not high enough. Where would you draw the line for 4 years of prep to not proceed with the cost of dental school? $800k? $1M? More? Undergrad and specialty program debt are not included.

Many pre-dent courses overlap with pre-med, pre-pharmacy, and many other health fields. The only field that has 3:1 student debt to income ratio is dentistry, while more and more dentists graduate with 4:1 ratio every year.

Not sure, I bet the high cost of entry defers some people but not enough because schools like midwestern still have a plethora of students that are willing to attend their 500k school over cheaper schools.

It doesn't help that dentists are still ranked in the top 5 best jobs in the US even though new dentists are graduating with 400k-600k of debt that continues to grow unless they throw more than 1/3 of their post tax income at it

100 Best Jobs of 2020

These are the 100 best jobs in America.

money.usnews.com

 

[FanOfCostco]

Maybe all of those dental students from CA who wanna reside in CA after graduation would have been better of going to medical school instead.... I don't think physicians are affected so much by saturation in major cities. Can anyone correct me?

But dentist are just people who can’t get into medical school 🤣


Med students have it worse. Imagine being a resident for 3 years minimum making 50ish K

 

[Cold Front]

Not sure, I bet the high cost of entry defers some people but not enough because schools like midwestern still have a plethora of students that are willing to attend their 500k school over cheaper schools.

It doesn't help that dentists are still ranked in the top 5 best jobs in the US even though new dentists are graduating with 400k-600k of debt that continues to grow unless they throw more than 1/3 of their post tax income at it

100 Best Jobs of 2020

These are the 100 best jobs in America.

money.usnews.com

Average school gets 2,000 applicants. That number was steady for the last 10 years, with no sign of deferment due to cost anytime soon.

These job reports with income rankings are outdated and don’t factor in income to debt ratios and other factors that accompanies the job. Very misleading.

 

[TanMan]

500k is a sizable amount of debt, when compared to the average dentist compensation. However, is 500k the average debt these days? I'd prefer to look at averages (what's the average debt v. what's the average pay). Comparing near maximum/peak debt to average salary doesn't seem to be a fair comparison. Of course, when it comes to averages, there will always be winners and losers. From a future provider perspective, you have to look at the anatomy of a loser (below average/average) to avoid becoming one of the losers in the averages. If someone doesn't recognize their mediocrity when they are truly mediocre, then they are failing to see the problem that needs to be resolved in the first place.

Your profession and training is your business. If you don't have the flexibility to move where there's demand, you're too slow to react on your feet, cannot sell or execute procedures, or just way too timid (conservative), then you may not necessarily have what it takes to pay that 500k+ in a few years. People will not go to you because of your DDS/DMD. They will go to you for customer service, public perception via marketing, and local demand.

Another aspect is to look at it is from an employer/corporate perspective. If these future dentists are tied down so much to debt, is there any way to pay them enough just to afford them a few creature comforts, make enough to pay their loans for 25+ years, but not really save anything in the long term? This is where the exploitation of average/below average/H1-B dentists occur. Essentially pay them enough to keep them somewhat satisfied, but not enough to be able to go anywhere else.

As long as money is available to fund these debt, there will be no shortage of applicants. It's just up to the applicants to step up and become profitable.

 

[FanOfCostco]

500k is a sizable amount of debt, when compared to the average dentist compensation. However, is 500k the average debt these days? I'd prefer to look at averages (what's the average debt v. what's the average pay). Comparing near maximum/peak debt to average salary doesn't seem to be a fair comparison. Of course, when it comes to averages, there will always be winners and losers. From a future provider perspective, you have to look at the anatomy of a loser (below average/average) to avoid becoming one of the losers in the averages. If someone doesn't recognize their mediocrity when they are truly mediocre, then they are failing to see the problem that needs to be resolved in the first place.

Your profession and training is your business. If you don't have the flexibility to move where there's demand, you're too slow to react on your feet, cannot sell or execute procedures, or just way too timid (conservative), then you may not necessarily have what it takes to pay that 500k+ in a few years. People will not go to you because of your DDS/DMD. They will go to you for customer service, public perception via marketing, and local demand.

Another aspect is to look at it is from an employer/corporate perspective. If these future dentists are tied down so much to debt, is there any way to pay them enough just to afford them a few creature comforts, make enough to pay their loans for 25+ years, but not really save anything in the long term? This is where the exploitation of average/below average/H1-B dentists occur. Essentially pay them enough to keep them somewhat satisfied, but not enough to be able to go anywhere else.

As long as money is available to fund these debt, there will be no shortage of applicants. It's just up to the applicants to step up and become profitable.

Someone pay this man to speak to pre-dents.

 

[Cold Front]

Someone pay this man to speak to pre-dents.

There are few of us/dentists who talk about this topic on weekly basis on the dental forums. Pre-dents can’t understand the advise, even if it was staring right at them. They are too busy excited about being a “dentist” one day, at all cost.

 

[setdoc7]

Dentistry is a business, not a profession with a bunch of procedures that we perform. Debt is a part of business to some extent, and debt service must be factored into the business plan for anyone wanting to go into the business of dentistry. I'll say it again...the business of dentistry. Unfortunately, the shools and institutions are run mostly by academic minds who would not want to have anything to do with running a business, that is why they are in education.
For instance, most D schools do a poor job training the students to work in the private sector. They teach them how to do procedures...that's it. Unfortunately, that is really not enough.
Imagine D school and institutions are Sears, chugging along for decades as the leader in catalog sales and retail sales. There is little change. Along comes Walmart, Amazon, and well...we know the rest. This must stop ASAP. Dental education needs to be revamped, streamlined, and made affordable...and it can be. Our young grads know where to begin, but are thwarted by the old folks in power who demonize change.
I have written about this many times. The ADA is not the answer. Our student leaders in ASDA and NSDA must demand to address the ADEA Council of Deans. Demand answers about how tuition is going to be roled back. What plans are in place. When can they expect action?

Those of us out of school can talk about this, but those in school must be heard...it's their future.

 

[TanMan]

Dentistry is a business, not a profession with a bunch of procedures that we perform. Debt is a part of business to some extent, and debt service must be factored into the business plan for anyone wanting to go into the business of dentistry. I'll say it again...the business of dentistry. Unfortunately, the shools and institutions are run mostly by academic minds who would not want to have anything to do with running a business, that is why they are in education.
For instance, most D schools do a poor job training the students to work in the private sector. They teach them how to do procedures...that's it. Unfortunately, that is really not enough.
Imagine D school and institutions are Sears, chugging along for decades as the leader in catalog sales and retail sales. There is little change. Along comes Walmart, Amazon, and well...we know the rest. This must stop ASAP. Dental education needs to be revamped, streamlined, and made affordable...and it can be. Our young grads know where to begin, but are thwarted by the old folks in power who demonize change.
I have written about this many times. The ADA is not the answer. Our student leaders in ASDA and NSDA must demand to address the ADEA Council of Deans. Demand answers about how tuition is going to be roled back. What plans are in place. When can they expect action?

Those of us out of school can talk about this, but those in school must be heard...it's their future.

I think it's a bit idealistic to think that things will change, starting with the young. While the money flows freely and you have many volunteers to borrow that freely flowing money to give to schools, I don't think things will change. No one in the system has an incentive to change. The admins want more money and applicants >>> spots (for GP and specialty), and because demand outstrips supply, people are willing to keep their mouth shut in fear of being cast out (either through expulsion, being held back, or not admitted).

Now the bigger question, who can make more of a difference? Not the students, they are powerless pawns and hopeless consumers of education due to the demand and lopsided power structure. If a school is highly dependent on alumni for money, they have more power and say... I'm not optimistic that alumni would have any vested interested or true altruism in fixing the system. Many alumni hate their dental school and are happy never to hear from their dental school ever again. Those that donate either really care, or want their child in the school or respective specialty program. It's pay to play.

It's not a great system, but it's the system that's in place. That's why I think dental school is just one long hazing process, like a frat.

 

[CaliforniaCrentist]

I lived in California for a decade. I have many college friends and my parents reside in the Bay Area. I also practiced for about 3 years in California.

I couldn't make it work. Making average dentist salary on 5-6 days a week. Alternating hours 8-5, 10-8, working saturdays 8-5. Seeing 1/3 of my income go to rent, another 1/3 going to loans, 1/3 going to taxes.... I was literally living paycheck to paycheck on a dentist salary. I contemplated asking my parents for help for a downpayment for a starter home in the bay area for 1 mil... I contemplated buying a starter home in tracy for half a mil and commuting 1+ hour day one way...so 2 hour commutes working 5-6 days a week.

I mean is it THAT bad? No...but my friends who went out of state had a better lifestyle. 4 days week, a starter house, literally double/triple my CA income, traveling on trips, and were making enough to have a decent amount of savings at the end of the month.

I moved out of California 3 years later. Now I work 4 days a week, have 5 weeks off a year, literally doubled my income, have a nice starter house that would of cost easily 1.0+ mil plus in the bay area, and I have made a plethora of friends in my area that rivals my bay area buds. Oh and I have savings meaning if there is a recession on the way, I can chill out and not worry about anything. Good luck if you are over-leveraged in the bay area.

My bay area dental friends are still "grinding" as they call it. But life''s to short to be "grinding." And I know what their definition of "grinding" is. It means working 5-6 days a week, don't have any savings in the bank, living in a house with 4 roomates and paying 2000$ in rent for a bedroom while the landlord rakes in cash... but have a bunch of instagram photos of Boba and food giving the appearance that everything is all good.

Dentistry is a good job, you just really have to manage your finances, your debts, your expectations- and of course- where you want to live.

What state did you move to if you don't mind me asking? I've lived in california my entire life and would be totally okay with going to a state with lower cost of living and some personal space!

 

[FanOfCostco]

What state did you move to if you don't mind me asking? I've lived in california my entire life and would be totally okay with going to a state with lower cost of living and some personal space!

Reno is doing well

 

[Blueshirts]

I think it's a bit idealistic to think that things will change, starting with the young. While the money flows freely and you have many volunteers to borrow that freely flowing money to give to schools, I don't think things will change. No one in the system has an incentive to change. The admins want more money and applicants >>> spots (for GP and specialty), and because demand outstrips supply, people are willing to keep their mouth shut in fear of being cast out (either through expulsion, being held back, or not admitted).

Now the bigger question, who can make more of a difference? Not the students, they are powerless pawns and hopeless consumers of education due to the demand and lopsided power structure. If a school is highly dependent on alumni for money, they have more power and say... I'm not optimistic that alumni would have any vested interested or true altruism in fixing the system. Many alumni hate their dental school and are happy never to hear from their dental school ever again. Those that donate either really care, or want their child in the school or respective specialty program. It's pay to play.

It's not a great system, but it's the system that's in place. That's why I think dental school is just one long hazing process, like a frat.

You hit the nail on the head in terms of student fear of consequence. I wish I could say that I would publically speak out, but with the debt already set in stone, if by any chance there was a school retaliation, I'd be on the hook for money that I realistically could not pay back and it would directly impact my family. It's like the saying 'you don't crap where you eat'.

 

[pubhealthdent]

So almost every pre-dent is so stressed about DAT scores, interviews and getting into a program.

.....

Where is all this hard work leading to financially?

.....

Majority of general dentists with EXPERIENCE make $200-300k pre-tax. Which is about $12-15k/month post-tax. Do you know how much of that goes towards student loans?

.....

Majority of pre-dents applying this cycle will more likely get into a program that charges $100k+/year in tuition and cost of living, some as high as $150k a year. The debt goes up every year while in school (no more subsidies), from years 1-4, by 3-5% (the surprise factor). The total debt to finish dental school, if you finish school, and after “compounding” interest today is “500k-700k+ for majority of schools, specially the new schools. Yes, military is an option, but over 90% of dental school graduates do not enter the military. Yes, 10-20% of you might be lucky to go to a cheaper school - but the debt is slightly lower, at $300-500k in 2019 (not in the future).

.....

This level of cost and debt is very likely a financial disaster than none of the dentists pre-dents shadowed ever discussed with, and would certainly not be discussed at the interviews. So, I post this to find out in the pre-dent forums... Would you still pursue dentistry with all these flashing red lights?

There are plenty of options to decrease the debt load. Theres HPSP, NHSC, S2S, PSLF, IHS, etc, etc, etc. Yes it would be irresponsible to not consider the high debt lad that will be incurred on the path to becoming a dentist, but all it takes is doing some due diligence on the variety of ways to reduce that load to realize that it's totally doable.

For example. I am 1 year out of school working in a small town at an FQHC making $250k. I recieved the S2S repayment which dropped my $523k down to just under $400k. I'm paying back under PAYE, which is income based, with plans to apply for PSLF in 9 years. My current loan payments are $1500. Under a standard 10-yr repayment, they would be about $5600. On the off chance that the PSLF program completely dissolves in the next 9 years, I'm socking away about $3k into a taxable investment account with let's say 8% return on investment (right now it's closer to 10%) that will be just short of $400k at that 10 years. Now obviously my income should increase over the next 9 years, allowing me to invest more money in this account over time.

So what I'm getting at is that it's totally doable. You just have to do your homework. And if you're thinking that seems like a lot of work to look at all these different programs and questioning if it's worth it, maybe it isn't. But if you know dentistry is for you, then you'll make it work. Public health, military, or rural private practice are all easy ways to do that.

 

[Cold Front]

So what I'm getting at is that it's totally doable. You just have to do your homework.

You are not the “average” new grad. Ofcourse some grads have done their homework, but for everyone like you, there are 5-10 new dentists who don’t have your plan/financial vision.

The fact dentistry has resorted to FQHC, military, etc - compared to directly going to private practice, is a reversal of what dentistry most wanted to be before entering the profession. Soon, if the tide continues in this direction, we will soon see extended commitments with the FQHC, military or some other delay before joining private practice. There is no longer 4 years of dental school, there is now 4 years plus “debt pay off arrangements” years before you actually see your first private practice patient, or you call always choose to get on IBR and don’t do these extra years of reducing the debt.

 

[pubhealthdent]

You are not the “average” new grad. Ofcourse some grads have done their homework, but for everyone like you, there are 5-10 new dentists who don’t have your plan/financial vision.

The fact dentistry has resorted to FQHC, military, etc - compared to directly going to private practice, is a reversal of what dentistry most wanted to be before entering the profession. Soon, if the tide continues in this direction, we will soon see extended commitments with the FQHC, military or some other delay before joining private practice. There is no longer 4 years of dental school, there is now 4 years plus “debt pay off arrangements” years before you actually see your first private practice patient, or you call always choose to get on IBR and don’t do these extra years of reducing the debt.

You're right, I'm definitely not the average new grad. But what I'm getting at is rather than all the doom and gloom about how bad student debt is, why don't we focus on educating these people on ways to avoid that heavy debt burden.

And for what it's worth FQHC/military/(reluctant to add this but even corporate) can be a great entrance step for new grads. Go somewhere for a couple years to get your sea legs under you. Pick up speed, gain confidence, get some business education, develop a business plan for opening a new practice or buying out an older dentist ready to retire and then when they've completed that, they can have the knowledge and speed to jump right into a new practice and start making money quicker.

 

[deleted903013]

why don't we focus on educating these people on ways to avoid that heavy debt burden.

The best way to avoid a heavy debt burden is to not get into heavy debt.

 

[pubhealthdent]

The best way to avoid a heavy debt burden is to not get into heavy debt.

Well until we get some student loan reform then we just have to live with it if we want to go into dentistry. Obviously the smartest thing to do if you can't get a full ride is to not go into dentistry but believe it or not theres some people who still want to go into this field so let's help them to find a way through it and not just saying 'don't do it.' That's not beneficial

 

[Cold Front]

Pick up speed, gain confidence, get some business education, develop a business plan for opening a new practice or buying out an older dentist ready to retire and then when they've completed that, they can have the knowledge and speed to jump right into a new practice and start making money quicker.

All these steps are getting harder every year:

1. Building an office cost has gone up and will continue to go up as labor and supply costs continue to go up in this strong economy.

2. Corporations are buying the good old-dentist offices at a record pace. A lot of close to retiring dentists are already in private equity radars, even I get letters to sell my practices to them - and I’m not anywhere close to retiring.

3. Dental insurances are lowering reimbursements and make everything difficult for providers.

4. More dental schools = more saturation at urban areas. Majority of young dentists want to stay in urban areas... so dentist to patient ratios are getting worse. Essentially not a viable area to open a new office.

 

[deleted903013]

Well until we get some student loan reform then we just have to live with it if we want to go into dentistry. Obviously the smartest thing to do if you can't get a full ride is to not go into dentistry but believe it or not theres some people who still want to go into this field so let's help them to find a way through it and not just saying 'don't do it.' That's not beneficial

There was a major drop in law school applicants recently because of law school sites the Top Law School forum where everyone was warning of how bad the legal market was with all of the debt. Getting the word out on these forums is extremely helpful. I hadn't even thought of debt until I found SDN. It's good to inform people in massive debt ways to get out of it, but people need to see major warning flags if they're about to go into half a million dollars of debt with an average starting salary of 120k.

 

[Cold Front]

believe it or not theres some people who still want to go into this field so let's help them to find a way through it and not just saying 'don't do it.'

Why do they want to be a dentist?

If it’s for the money, in the short run (maybe first 10-15 years) there are plenty of other 6 figure jobs that only need 4 yrs bachelor degree, with far less student loans.

If it’s for the passion, then they should go to the military, FQHC and other shortage areas and truly do it and avoid financial motives and headaches - mostly of which will come in the form of more debt (practice ownership and beyond).

 

[pubhealthdent]

Why do they want to be a dentist?

If it’s for the money, in the short run (maybe first 10-15 years) there are plenty of other 6 figure jobs that only need 4 yrs bachelor degree, with far less student loans.

If it’s for the passion, then they should go to the military, FQHC and other shortage areas and truly do it and avoid financial motives and headaches - mostly of which will come in the form of more debt (practice ownership and beyond).

I'd be totally fine if this scared away those only wanting to become dentists for the money.

 

[321931]

There are plenty of options to decrease the debt load. Theres HPSP, NHSC, S2S, PSLF, IHS, etc, etc, etc. Yes it would be irresponsible to not consider the high debt lad that will be incurred on the path to becoming a dentist, but all it takes is doing some due diligence on the variety of ways to reduce that load to realize that it's totally doable.

For example. I am 1 year out of school working in a small town at an FQHC making $250k. I recieved the S2S repayment which dropped my $523k down to just under $400k. I'm paying back under PAYE, which is income based, with plans to apply for PSLF in 9 years. My current loan payments are $1500. Under a standard 10-yr repayment, they would be about $5600. On the off chance that the PSLF program completely dissolves in the next 9 years, I'm socking away about $3k into a taxable investment account with let's say 8% return on investment (right now it's closer to 10%) that will be just short of $400k at that 10 years. Now obviously my income should increase over the next 9 years, allowing me to invest more money in this account over time.

So what I'm getting at is that it's totally doable. You just have to do your homework. And if you're thinking that seems like a lot of work to look at all these different programs and questioning if it's worth it, maybe it isn't. But if you know dentistry is for you, then you'll make it work. Public health, military, or rural private practice are all easy ways to do that.

8-10% return? Jeez you should be a financial advisor instead of a dentist.

 

[TanMan]

Why do they want to be a dentist?

If it’s for the money, in the short run (maybe first 10-15 years) there are plenty of other 6 figure jobs that only need 4 yrs bachelor degree, with far less student loans.

If it’s for the passion, then they should go to the military, FQHC and other shortage areas and truly do it and avoid financial motives and headaches - mostly of which will come in the form of more debt (practice ownership and beyond).

There's nothing wrong with doing dentistry for the money. It's how you're going to make a ton of money from dentistry that's key. I don't think a lot of us posters on the forums can say that dentistry is so bad, when we're doing relatively well directly and indirectly from dentistry. I see it slightly hypocritical of us to say don't do dentistry when we're blessed to be doing well in dentistry (and we're not even that old yet).

Also, although there might be plenty of 6 figure jobs that only need 4 year bachelor's, most of those jobs are low 6 figures. Can they get into the 7 figures based on their education alone? Highly unlikely, not as likely in dentistry, but more likely than the 4 year bachelor's.

I'd be totally fine if this scared away those only wanting to become dentists for the money.

Even in public health, you seem to be doing well, and you seem to have a backup plan if PSLF fails. I think proper planning helps ensure that future dentists won't be broke. The big issue is whether these students have the willpower to make money and become successful. I've learned that not everyone has this willpower. Seeing the discipline that a lot of these future dentists have to do all sorts of things (such as studying hard, working out, eating 6 times a day of bland ass chicken breasts/protein, climbing mountains and going through all the BS of getting into dental school), these future dentists should have the willpower to succeed financially - in theory.

 

[Cold Front]

Also, although there might be plenty of 6 figure jobs that only need 4 year bachelor's, most of those jobs are low 6 figures. Can they get into the 7 figures based on their education alone? Highly unlikely, not as likely in dentistry, but more likely than the 4 year bachelor's.

When you factor in the dental student loans/debt ($500k+)... $200-250k income as dentist = other low 6 figure jobs with almost no debt. Also, other 6 figure jobs have more PTO’s/time offs from work and benefits than associate dentist jobs. Don’t get me wrong, I understand it’s not apples to apples... but in terms of “averages”, dentistry is getting less and less financially attractive (beside the prestige of being called a “Dr.”)

If you are the rare meticulous planner, hard working, and have dotted lines to help you capitalize on dentistry, then this profession is financially rewarding.

 

[TanMan]

When you factor in the dental student loans/debt ($500k+)... $200-250k income as dentist = other low 6 figure jobs with almost no debt. Also, other 6 figure jobs have more PTO’s/time offs from work and benefits than associate dentist jobs. Don’t get me wrong, I understand it’s not apples to apples... but in terms of “averages”, dentistry is getting less and less financially attractive (beside the prestige of being called a “Dr.”)

If you are the rare meticulous planner, hard working, and have dotted lines to help you capitalize on dentistry, then this profession is financially rewarding.

I suppose it all depends on someone's life goals. If someone is content with a low 6 figure job, working the majority of their life, with benefits (and under the assumption that they will always stay with the same company or always employed) and with less debt, then that path would appear more appealing. However, I think that you have to look at your ability to move up within the ladder to get out of the low 6 figure job to move up to a mid/high 6 figure(or even 7 figure) job. I think vertical income mobility is easier with dentistry than with other professions. I feel that it's worse to be stuck in a low 6 figure job with minimal risk/minimal upward mobility than to be in a mid 6 figure job with a lot more debt but more potential to move up to high 6 figure/low 7 figures.

Also, I think being called a Dr. is the most overrated concept ever. If I'm stuck on a plane and someone is having a heart attack, I don't want to be responsible for trying to save the patient.

 

[mmc12]

I suppose it all depends on someone's life goals. If someone is content with a low 6 figure job, working the majority of their life, with benefits (and under the assumption that they will always stay with the same company or always employed) and with less debt, then that path would appear more appealing. However, I think that you have to look at your ability to move up within the ladder to get out of the low 6 figure job to move up to a mid/high 6 figure(or even 7 figure) job. I think vertical income mobility is easier with dentistry than with other professions. I feel that it's worse to be stuck in a low 6 figure job with minimal risk/minimal upward mobility than to be in a mid 6 figure job with a lot more debt but more potential to move up to high 6 figure/low 7 figures.

Also, I think being called a Dr. is the most overrated concept ever. If I'm stuck on a plane and someone is having a heart attack, I don't want to be responsible for trying to save the patient.

How would you compare dentistry with top paying medical specialties? (Plastics, etc). Seems like the income is generally higher with medical specialties and although their residencies are long, they are always paid (unlike dental specialties). Also, incomes in medicine have risen in the past 10 years while I don’t think the same is true in dentistry.

 

[TanMan]

How would you compare dentistry with top paying medical specialties? (Plastics, etc). Seems like the income is generally higher with medical specialties and although their residencies are long, they are always paid (unlike dental specialties). Also, incomes in medicine have risen in the past 10 years while I don’t think the same is true in dentistry.

Compare the specialties, not from an annual income standpoint, but from an hourly standpoint. Dentists work way less hours than most physicians.
Second, compare how difficult it is to get into those top paying lifestyle medical specialties v. dentistry. Dentistry is easy to get into. Medicine is harder, the competitive specialties are even harder.
Third, the amount of time spent on education.

Taken as a whole, I think dentistry is way better for the following reasons:
1. Easier to get in. I don't have to compete so much to get in. A lot less BS overall
2. Less time in school. I don't want to spend most of my life in school. Time in school could mean time you could be using to start your life, investing, and getting ready for retirement.
3. More early entrepreneurial opportunities. Not bound to a hospital/surgical center.
4. Less liability - I'm responsible for the oral cavity and that's it. You got to be pretty dumb or unlucky to kill someone in general dentistry practice.
5. Less political than medicine. This is why I don't want ADA and other organizations to push the agenda that dentistry is mandatory, not elective. Once you make it non-elective, then it becomes a public good. Public goods are more highly regulated. Honestly though, once I'm done with dentistry, I don't really care so much anymore.

Even if top paying specialties made more, they had to go through more school, have more liability, had to work harder to beat everyone for the spot, and have to work more hours. By the time they were done with school, I'm enjoying life already.

TL;DR Less training, headstart on work, comparable hourly, less BS makes dentistry better.

Edit: I forgot to mention, you have to work a lot harder in medical school to get into competitive specialties., to add to the list, you have to work harder in school. I think dentistry is great for those that adopt a minimal effort, maximum gain type of philosophy. Those that care about the law of diminishing returns when it comes to input of time to money would be a great fit for general dentistry.

 

[allantois]

“None” of the pre-dents that are applying to dental school this cycle know what their first year (2020-2021) tuition and fees will be. Let that sink in for a second.

They will not know until they are accepted and in most cases pay a non-refundable deposit, and are few months away from their first semester of dental school. They will not know what their second year tuition and fees until they finish their first year of dental school. And so on for year 3 and 4.

Hypothetically speaking, what “if” schools tell pre-dents that tuition went up 10% or even 20% after they got accepted into a program. Would the pre-dents withdraw from the program? Ofcourse not! Schools raise their tuition and fees at 4-5% range because that’s a low single digit number that can be argued to be inflationary - but when it happens over 5-10 years, it’s equivalent to 100-150k in additional debt to earn a degree.

Many state schools have mandatory freezes on their tuition. My private school hasn’t raised tuition in the time I’ve been there. Predatory schools raise their tuition by 4%, but not all schools are like that

 

[princeafrica]

What’s the maximum amount of dental school debt would you consider fair or make dentistry still worth it?

 

[TanMan]

What’s the maximum amount of dental school debt would you consider fair or make dentistry still worth it?

That's a bit of a difficult question to answer, but I'd look at it from a few objective parameters and the type of dentist that you are. I will assume that your student loan will be 1k/month for every 100k borrowed. I will also assume that base pay is 750/day*22 days, total of about 16.5k/month pre-tax, 11k/month post-tax. So, for an average/below average dentist, we will assume low living expenses of 2k/month if single. This brings you down to 9k. So, if I were a dentist, I'd want to have saved up 100k by the first year (or two years if you can't go above 750/day) to be able to start an office. I'll need to save at least 4-8k/month if I'm going to cash it, unless I can do it via credit cards and other loans. You can't pay construction loans via credit card, but you can with equipment, so from my experience, you can probably put equipment on loan and credit at the tune of 30-40k, dropping cash requirements to 60-75k for construction. Either save all of it or leverage yourself even more. If you choose to leverage yourself, then borrow the money first before utilizing credit cards so your credit doesn't tank and you can borrow more. Paying 1k/month does not seem feasible, so this is where IBR can come in.

This also assumes that you have to start making payments to your loans immediately. If you can hold off on paying your loans for 6 months or so, you will have a major headstart (if you can save almost all of that 9k/month for 6 months, that gives you 54k to start, 30-40k to put on CC for equipment (or equipment finance), to start your office.

Once you get your office started, you can start writing off all sorts of expenditures to drive your income down for IBR while you're in the ramping stages of your office. Work for someone while you're ramping up and this is where the largest risk exists... can you ramp up your office for maximum profitability. The key to making this work with this highly leveraged route is to go beyond 750/day and getting fast.

If your associate takehome is 9k/month, then I'd say a comfortable buffer for student loans is 3k/month if you are a dentist who's never going to get better, faster, or earn more money. That would equate to 300k at most. 6k/month is not great, but enough to live a middle/lower middle class life. If you hate dentistry, then I wouldn't consider this path.

If you can ramp up to 1k/day or more, lets assume worst case it's 1k/day @ 22 days, that's 22k/month, 15k takehome, minus 2k for living expenses giving you 13k for pre-student loan, then 600-700k in loans may be doable. With 6-7k/month in loans. Again, this depends on interest rate, I decided on 1k/100k because it's easier, but plug in your own numbers.

So, I hope this logic makes sense. It's all about getting to the starting line of owning your own office. Once you get there, 600-700k doesn't really matter so much anymore. It's just a lot because associate incomes tend to be paltry in comparison to owner incomes. Tons of assumptions here, lots of oversimplications, but add your own variables to my simplified calculations for a better modeling and approximation of how much you should borrow for dentistry to be worth it.

Edit: If you really don't want to read all that, if you're slow and stuck at base pay of 750/day, 300k would be my estimate. If you can get faster and go 1k/day, 600-700k would be max. If you are in an area where you make 400-500/day, I'm going to say don't go to dentistry unless you can get away with 100k-150k (at the absolute max) in loans

 

[Cold Front]

Many state schools have mandatory freezes on their tuition. My private school hasn’t raised tuition in the time I’ve been there. Predatory schools raise their tuition by 4%, but not all schools are like that

Which state dental schools froze their tuition and fees?