The DO I shadowed said "I will write the letter and he will sign/send it"

[iliveinmyguitar]

First post on the forum and I have a question,

I only shadowed this DO one day. He is a family friend and lived an hour away. It was bad timing and I was not available to come any other days of the summer. However, he said that if I write the letter he will sign it and send it out to wherever it needs to go. Does this mean I can write anything I want about myself and make it look like I walk on water? He's really close friends with my dad so he wouldn't care much if I lie about the amount of hours I spend with him. But is there a way that the medical school can find out?

Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

First post on the forum and I have a question,

I only shadowed this DO one day. He is a family friend and lived an hour away. It was bad timing and I was not available to come any other days of the summer. However, he said that if I write the letter he will sign it and send it out to wherever it needs to go. Does this mean I can write anything I want about myself and make it look like I walk on water? He's really close friends with my dad so he wouldn't care much if I lie about the amount of hours I spend with him. But is there a way that the medical school can find out?

Thanks!

Pretty sure its pretty strict that you arent even supposed to see the letter, let alone write it, and pretty sure its generally bad form. Best to try and get some other experience that can get a letter out of it. But definitely still include the shadowing experience in your application.

My two cents

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Don't be an idiot. He'll read it. If you write something outrageous and stupid, he'll not sign it. Make yourself look good, but not walk on water level.

 

[WalSlave]

There are way better ways to write an awesome letter than to lie about the amount of hours you shadowed, good lord. I wouldn't even mention the hours if that's something you are worried about. A letter isn't somewhere to include technical junk that is easily read on your primary app. Just write a nice letter that's honest and flattering, and you'll be fine. Don't mess this up.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Plus think of it this way... if the experience was not sufficient enough to get a real letter out of it, what types of stuff would you be able to talk about during an interview, if someone asks about your experiences with DOs...

 

[medickdb]

Don't lie about anything. Whether or not he signs it, please be ethical. I know there are applicants out there who fudge certain aspects of their applications, but have a backbone.

Just write something straightforward that doesn't sound too generic.

Ideally, he should be writing the letter, but I think most of us understand that not everyone has the time and/or insight to be through.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Ok apparently I am the stick in the sand here about this whole letter thing. Do what you do then heh

 

[Stoptheclot]

Ok apparently I am the stick in the sand here about this whole letter thing. Do what you do then heh

From my experience, its actually somewhat common for very busy PIs/physicians to ask the student to write their own letter. Just as described above, you would know what would be most important to include in the letter. By them signing the letter, they are endorsing that the information is correct. I've had some great physicians/shadowing experiences where he/she wrote a really poor letter that read "I support PROFNL Griefer as a doctor. Call me with any questions. Signed, Dr. Doctor."

My PI told me to write my own letter, I was very modest with my descriptions/characteristics. He turned around and added his touch, changing my descriptions to make me sound like Mother Theresa and SEAL Team Six all in one... I jokingly asked him who he was describing, and he said "I signed it, didn't I? These are the standards I have held you to, and you have met them. Keep striving for the goal!" Truly humbling. AND inspiring.

OP - be honest and descriptive. It isn't unethical until you have someone sign off on a lie (i.e., helping your brother with a papercut and making it sound like an amputation), but I admit... it definitely felt strange at first!

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Its actually very common for very busy PIs/physicians to ask the student to write their own letter. Just as described above, you would know what would be most important to include in the letter. By them signing the letter, they are endorsing that the information is correct. My PI told me to write my own letter, I was very modest with my descriptions/characteristics. He turned around and added his touch, changing my descriptions to make me sound like Mother Theresa and SEAL Team Six all in one... I jokingly asked him who he was describing, and he said "I signed it, didn't I? These are the standards I have held you to, and you have met them. Keep striving for the goal!" Truly humbling. AND inspiring.

OP - be honest and descriptive. It isn't unethical until you have someone sign off on a lie (i.e., helping your brother with a papercut and making it sound like an amputation), but I admit... it definitely felt strange at first!

You're right, it does happen. I had 3 people who either wanted me to write the letter or sit with them as they wrote the letter. They were either too busy or had no idea how to write a meaningful LOR. I just gave them a printout of what makes a strong LOR that I found online. I politely declined to read the letters but one person asked me to mail the letter because he just didn't have enough time. I asked him to sign along the flap and put some really strong tape across it. If the tape was ripped off it would take part of the signature with it and show the letter had been opened.

OP, the reason other posters are being strict is because it's really unfair if you get to write whatever you want. I volunteered at a position for close to 5 years to get a good letter and someone else who had connections and never even bothered to finish orientation got a similar one. This is why ECs are getting more and more competitive.

As PROFNL Griefer said, as long as the letter is honest and descriptive I don't see the issue.

 

[EMDO2018]

This is more common than you think. Physicians are busy, you know yourself better than anyone, and if he reads and agrees then he will sign. His signature basically says "I agree". As long as you don't hype yourself as the best premed in the world, you should be fine.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I mean I couldve sworn that they have to sign off saying that the student has never seen it... something along the lines of "waiver of access" form... Heck even to upload on interfolio they have to sign a paper like that...

 

[WalSlave]

I could be missing something, but I'm pretty sure there is no rule keeping someone from showing you your letter. YOU sign a waver on interfolio waiving your right of access to them, but that doesn't mean they must be kept from you. I emailed in my own letters when applying to my graduate program last year. That's not really a big deal, typically, unless some schools have some weird rule about it.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I cannot for the life of me find the official place it said. But I am 100% sure that you want confidential (ie you not seeing it ever)... Heck my own school wont even take letters that arent confidential.

If for a smidge of proof (until I get more time to thoroughly look), please refer to this thread.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/confidential-vs-non-confidential.931704/

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I am seriously not trying to throw people for a loop. I would just definitely look this stuff up carefully. I without any hesitation have been under the strong impression that you are not supposed to see your letters (whether it happens or not).

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I could be missing something, but I'm pretty sure there is no rule keeping someone from showing you your letter. YOU sign a waver on interfolio waiving your right of access to them, but that doesn't mean they must be kept from you. I emailed in my own letters when applying to my graduate program last year. That's not really a big deal, typically, unless some schools have some weird rule about it.

Seriously no... the letter writer signs it. I havent fiddled with interfolio in a few months. But I 100% remember printing a paper, having my letter writer sign it, and shipping it with my LoR he wrote for me.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I am seriously not trying to throw people for a loop. I would just definitely look this stuff up carefully. I without any hesitation have been under the strong impression that you are not supposed to see your letters (whether it happens or not).

Relax. We believe you.

 

[GUH]

Don't lie, but this is a great opportunity to highlight your strengths AND get a DO letter. Never pass up a good opportunity.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

Don't lie, but this is a great opportunity to highlight your strengths AND get a DO letter. Never pass up a good opportunity.

This.
Keep it honest, but highlight your strengths. Don't make it an unrealistic depiction of you.
And to Awesome sauceome- students do this all the time. You waive your right to access the letter from the school; this does not prevent you from seeing the letter via the letter writer. Lots of students have read (and written) letters similar to this scenario. Really not a huge deal.

 

[HooliganSnail]

Don't lie, but this is a great opportunity to highlight your strengths AND get a DO letter. Never pass up a good opportunity.

Exactly correct. If he signs it, then he agrees to any statements made therein. Lying is always stupid, but I don't think that is what the OP is stating they would do.

 

[WalSlave]

Seriously no... the letter writer signs it. I havent fiddled with interfolio in a few months. But I 100% remember printing a paper, having my letter writer sign it, and shipping it with my LoR he wrote for me.

Fair enough. Thanks for the info!

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Actually it is precisely what he stated



It borders on the ethical integrity that is expected for physicians . It also reads very badly to adcoms who may come across this searchable thread for any poster who use the same screen name on multiple sites. Many schools now include a "formal" google search (ie becomes a formal part of the applicant's file. Tact and discretion is important for doctors and perhaps should be one for premeds as well

They have time for this?

 

[HooliganSnail]

its what gets assigned to the student intern or similar to do. Often it is a later step or post interview process to ensure no red flags are raised. Though I know of several schools where it is part of the early review. But I would be confident in saying that the majority of schools have some pre-matriculation step that at minimum does a google/facebook search before that you start in classes. Remember that acceptance can be withdrawn for a variety of vague enough reasons that will stand legal muster.

And rather than get bogged down in the process and legalistic points, perhaps thinking about in the integrity and ethical standards that one would like to see in those wishing to become physicians

Yeah yeah yeah, ethical yawn. Please spare us all the high and mighty lecture from on high.

Listen, the advice to the OP is still the same. Never lie.

However, if someone asks you to write your own LOR, and says he will sign it, then that is perfectly fine in my book. No ethical breaches there.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Actually it is precisely what he stated



It borders on the ethical integrity that is expected for physicians . It also reads very badly to adcoms who may come across this searchable thread for any poster who use the same screen name on multiple sites. Many schools now include a "formal" google search (ie becomes a formal part of the applicant's file. Tact and discretion is important for doctors and perhaps should be one for premeds as well

its what gets assigned to the student intern or similar to do. Often it is a later step or post interview process to ensure no red flags are raised. Though I know of several schools where it is part of the early review. But I would be confident in saying that the majority of schools have some pre-matriculation step that at minimum does a google/facebook search before that you start in classes. Remember that acceptance can be withdrawn for a variety of vague enough reasons that will stand legal muster.

And rather than get bogged down in the process and legalistic points, perhaps thinking about in the integrity and ethical standards that one would like to see in those wishing to become physicians

This is absolutely frightening. I hope the student interns can sift through this data in the proper manner.

Let says BobwantsHarvard comes on SDN and posts his stats and very unique ECs allowing the schools to identify him. BobwantsHardvard is a great candidate for medical school and is all prepped up for the upcoming cycle. Unfortunately he gets into a heated debate with CognitiveDissonance69er. CognitiveDissonance69er decides to retaliate by signing up on other forums with the name "BobwantsHarvard" and posting racy things. The student intern goes through Google and reports these findings.

It turns out Bob's real name is Harry and he's really a grapefruit.

---
Years ago a friend had his entire profile copied. The person saved every picture in the right order since he knew a fair amount of coding he made it look really legit. He then went through the friends list and added every female then continued to flirt with them for weeks before we finally caught him.

---
Imagine this being done with Facebook. Someone copies my name and pictures and starts saying some really racy things. The problem is my profile is on private so no one can search for it. When the student intern searches my name they will find the person who copied my profile and kept it public.

 

[studentp0x]

its what gets assigned to the student intern or similar to do. Often it is a later step or post interview process to ensure no red flags are raised. Though I know of several schools where it is part of the early review. But I would be confident in saying that the majority of schools have some pre-matriculation step that at minimum does a google/facebook search before that you start in classes. Remember that acceptance can be withdrawn for a variety of vague enough reasons that will stand legal muster.

And rather than get bogged down in the process and legalistic points, perhaps thinking about in the integrity and ethical standards that one would like to see in those wishing to become physicians

What do you really find on facebook? Either a profile picture or you get lucky and get to creep on someone who forgot to fix their security settings. Can't really see what could possibly be on there to change anyone's mind.
Google's a bit of a different story, but again... does it really matter?

 

[Stoptheclot]

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

So now that this topic has come up, I figure its as good of a time as any ask about my facebook. So my pre-med adviser has strongly suggested to turn off facebook or have the highest security settings on. But seriously, I have like nothing even remotely incriminating on my facebook. Even if you have the patience to scroll through the million wedding pictures that friends and family recently uploaded and tagged me in, you will then find pictures of me camping, chilling with family, stuff like that. I have gone through all of my stuff several times just to be sure, but seriously there is nothing even remotely incriminating on my facebook (this also includes my facebook wall). So with that being said, should I still close it down a bit before the cycle starts?

Is there any positive to keeping it open? Like they can get a pretty good idea of who I am by my facebook (pretty average family man).

 

[iliveinmyguitar]

So much insight from you guys! I really appreciate everyone's feedback. I will not be lying on the letter! I was just wondering about the whole situation of a physician telling me to write the LOR in general and was looking for advise from people who have shared similar experiences. I threw in "lying about hours" to exaggerate my question. Bad phrasing.. But yeah I just don't have much shadowing experience and was wondering how I can take advantage of writing my own letter for the few experiences that I had shadowing. The thing is I work in the hospital and I follow doctors around all the time. Technically it is not shadowing but I have spent hours locked in a room with a physician who needed assistance holding a patient or providing him/her with the tools for the procedure. I guess I don't get the attention that shadowing students get however I'm always proactive and always ask physician question about what just happened. I've been doing that for 3 years. So i guess I have another question.

If its not technically shadowing, can I still ask for a LOR from a physician with whom I've worked with for a really long time as apposed to looking for a new doctor to follow around so that its technically shadowing?

I've seen a lot working in the ER, and the experiences that I have been exposed to solidified my certainty of becoming a physician like nothing else in my life.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

So much insight from you guys! I really appreciate everyone's feedback. I will not be lying on the letter! I was just wondering about the whole situation of a physician telling me to write the LOR in general and was looking for advise from people who have shared similar experiences. I threw in "lying about hours" to exaggerate my question. Bad phrasing.. But yeah I just don't have much shadowing experience and was wondering how I can take advantage of writing my own letter for the few experiences that I had shadowing. The thing is I work in the hospital and I follow doctors around all the time. Technically it is not shadowing but I have spent hours locked in a room with a physician who needed assistance holding a patient or providing him/her with the tools for the procedure. I guess I don't get the attention that shadowing students get however I'm always proactive and always ask physician question about what just happened. I've been doing that for 3 years. So i guess I have another question.

If its not technically shadowing, can I still ask for a LOR from a physician with whom I've worked with for a really long time as apposed to looking for a new doctor to follow around so that its technically shadowing?

I've seen a lot working in the ER, and the experiences that I have been exposed to solidified my certainty of becoming a physician like nothing else in my life.

Oh my gosh absolutely! That should be a WAY better letter, dude totally highlight that. Like THIS is what you need to be highlighting on your app as exposure to medicine. There are people on here that get very little shadowing experience solely because they have awesome experiences like that to draw on in their application and on interviews. Shadowing is more or less just what most people do because they cant find good experiences like that...

 

[studentp0x]

Yes it does matter in ways from where you might get an attending position, to matching residency, being accepted to medical school, and now even getting into college. All students need to understand medicine overall has a culture that is slow to change in many ways and tries to shape the public perception of physicians through the many institutional bodies that govern the professional from AMA and AOA thru all the specialty academies and the rest. This issue of social media has been hitting residency programs for several years ( studies from at least 2008 below). This now rolls down hill to medical schools, then medical admissions, then prehealth advisors. It is topic widely discussed with the consensus to encourage student to be professional on their personal social media sites.

So what are you really looking for when you look someone up? What if they screwed up on some forum or something along those lines 8 years ago, do you hold them "accountable" for that?

I swear there was a thread on here a while ago about some admin people (not sure if it was adcoms or know it was) being concerned over some students on social media.. apparently it was just pics of them partying.

 

[Stephanopolous]

I would strongly advise against doing this.

FYI
Under the FERPA law you have the right to access/read all letters written for you.

Develop a relationship with a physician so they know you well enough to feel comfortable to write you a great letter.

Like another post on this forum said, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't set yourself back by making an ethical mistake.

 

[jbay99]

I would strongly advise against doing this.

FYI
Under the FERPA law you have the right to access/read all letters written for you.

Develop a relationship with a physician so they know you well enough to feel comfortable to write you a great letter.

Like another post on this forum said, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't set yourself back by making an ethical mistake.

Why are people still talking about this? OP, some schools require a letter from a D.O. Many school strongly recommend a letter from a D.O. Do you want to get into medical school or not? Write the letter, make it good but don't make up a bunch of stuff that you obviously would never have done in that setting. You can include things about yourself that are true that the doctor you shadowed maybe didn't know about you. Make sure you have someone proofread it. I shadowed a D.O. for a month and he still wanted me to write my own letter and he signed it. Some doctors are just too busy and that's how they do things. Unless you do something above and beyond while you shadow, most letters are pretty generic anyway and that's okay. It's more about getting a letter than what it says. They just want to know that you are a normal person and can be professional in that environment.

Yes, by law it is your right to read all of your letters, but admissions know when you do and it doesn't look good. Normally, if you ask someone for a letter there shouldn't be any doubt whether or not it will be good.

 

[studentp0x]

Here is an issue that was presented in previously posted papers that parents of pediatric patients a various hospitals/residency programs look up the 3rd resident treating their child, see him/her in whatever outrageous party picture from years earlier and demands a different doctor. And how fast do think that anxious parents will pass that info around? What do you do with a pediatric resident who gets this reputation? what does a director do?








The other issue I hear about all the time, which was my initial concern for the
perception that the OP setting is what is said on SDN about a school or by an applicant, in this case the implication of



writing his/her own evaluation. The list of grievous errors that students make include using very inappropriate email/scree
n names, using the same address/screen name that the schools gets for a website where you talk trash about something, like the s

chool. I was at a presentation by an Adcom Ass't D
irector for one of the DO schools a few years ago under the heading of



Not What To Do

Depend on SDN as a reliable resource
Post things about Adm

issions on SDN (We do read it)
Post questionable photos, remarks or discussions on your Facebook Page!

"M
y professor is a pain"
"this rotation site stinks"
"Jack and Coke are my best friends"

Maybe they should look up one of their own party pictures from the past and reassess their ability of being a parent.

 

[studentp0x]

You can argue the validity or value of these items, but that is not the point. The reality is, it is a subject that premedical students should be aware of during their application to medical school

Maybe schools shouldn't look into applicants' personal lives beyond a criminal background check.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There are a lot of stick in the mud types on this forum. Like I feel like I'm in church where everyone says they're doing one thing, but yet I sincerely doubt it.

 

[Chillywilly]

Don't lie about anything. Whether or not he signs it, please be ethical. I know there are applicants out there who fudge certain aspects of their applications, but have a backbone.

Just write something straightforward that doesn't sound too generic.

Ideally, he should be writing the letter, but I think most of us understand that not everyone has the time and/or insight to be through.

To be honest this happened to my friend years ago. Really close relationship with his doctor, shadowed him, and the doctor said he can write the letter. Of course my friend wrote a good letter. He went on to great DO school, and he Honored all his classes, and scored above a 240 on his USMLE (idk about his COMLEX).

I have another friend who let his brother take the SAT for him. He got into one of those early assurance programs where all you needed was an SAT not the MCAT. He got accepted, and is doing fine.

Look, sometimes applicants do bad things, but in the end they become good students and doctors. Not in every case, but you get the idea. Just as long as you don't get into med school and start killing people....like the med student known as the Craigslist Killer.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

To be honest this happened to my friend years ago. Really close relationship with his doctor, shadowed him, and the doctor said he can write the letter. Of course my friend wrote a good letter. He went on to great DO school, and he Honored all his classes, and scored above a 240 on his USMLE (idk about his COMLEX).

I have another friend who let his brother take the SAT for him. He got into one of those early assurance programs where all you needed was an SAT not the MCAT. He got accepted, and is doing fine.

Look, sometimes applicants do bad things, but in the end they become good students and doctors. Not in every case, but you get the idea. Just as long as you don't get into med school and start killing people....like the med student known as the Craigslist Killer.

How someone got to switch bodies for the sat without ****ting themselves in fear is impressive.

And yah, most people on here buy into this moralistic bull that if a doctor stole candy at age 5 he'll probably sell opioids at 50 or become a pharm rep.

I mean what's more hilarious is the fact that they're so moral when they're probably not all that in reality or so statistics show.

 

[Chillywilly]

How someone got to switch bodies for the sat without ****ting themselves in fear is impressive.

And yah, most people on here buy into this moralistic bull that if a doctor stole candy at age 5 he'll probably sell opioids at 50 or become a pharm rep.

I mean what's more hilarious is the fact that they're so moral when they're probably not all that in reality or so statistics show.

Idk he took the sats back in the early 2000s. He and his brother almost looked like twins so maybe that's why.
But then again the security for taking the SAT is no where near like it is for taking the MCAT.

 

[IMDoc607]

I am seriously not trying to throw people for a loop. I would just definitely look this stuff up carefully. I without any hesitation have been under the strong impression that you are not supposed to see your letters (whether it happens or not).

Dude...no one cares. I was offered to see all my letters and as a toolbag premed I declined. Now as a fellow, I have people write their own and I sign it.

 

[Back 5]

The physician who asks you to write your own letter isn't going to sign off on it without scanning it first. Write the absolute best letter you can and feel comfortable knowing that you've, at least, got a very strong set of LoR's in your file. One less thing to worry about in this hoop-jumping experience.

 

[futurexray]

The Committees know this happens and they also take into account the only one day shadowing. So I would not walk on water and you don't want to start out with a lie, nothing like that can end up good in the long run.

First post on the forum and I have a question,

I only shadowed this DO one day. He is a family friend and lived an hour away. It was bad timing and I was not available to come any other days of the summer. However, he said that if I write the letter he will sign it and send it out to wherever it needs to go. Does this mean I can write anything I want about myself and make it look like I walk on water? He's really close friends with my dad so he wouldn't care much if I lie about the amount of hours I spend with him. But is there a way that the medical school can find out?

Thanks!

 

[Goro]

Maybe they shouldn't, but they do.

Maybe schools shouldn't look into applicants' personal lives beyond a criminal background check.

 

[Silent Cool]

First post on the forum and I have a question,

I only shadowed this DO one day. He is a family friend and lived an hour away. It was bad timing and I was not available to come any other days of the summer. However, he said that if I write the letter he will sign it and send it out to wherever it needs to go.

Awesome. Golden Opportunity.

Does this mean I can write anything I want about myself and make it look like I walk on water?

Yes. Also see my previous point.

He's really close friends with my dad so he wouldn't care much if I lie about the amount of hours I spend with him. But is there a way that the medical school can find out?

No. See points number one and two.
But in all seriousness, if the doc is cool, he'll get it/understand. Just spend more time shadowing him to make the number of hours legit. Rec Letters are BS so make sure you write a glowing one.

Last point: have you read the famous farce of medical training, 'The House of God?' In it, at the very end, one of the main characters is ecstatic because one of the fellows or professors says to him, 'you can write your own letter' (and I'll sign it).

Be glad you found a cool doc, and good luck.

Thanks!