the end of urm classification?

[Aeterni]

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To whom is your post addressed? I welcome affirmative action with open arms.

The post above you by zwitterion (which I assumed was sarcastic, forgive me if it was not) and the other posts throughout the thread stating similar sentiments. It was mostly for general knowledge on the topic, as the two articles I posted do an excellent job of addressing many common arguments against AA and the first provides compelling numbers to back it up.

 

[Sephiroth]

http://www.timwise.org/2011/09/getting-what-we-deserve-wealth-race-and-entitlement-in-america/

Please scroll down to the part headed "Unearned advantage and its opposite," read it, and understand why affirmative action is necessary.

(Edit: Feel free to read the rest of the article, as well.)

Then read

http://www.timwise.org/2010/10/affi...ifference-between-oppression-and-opportunity/

And understand why affirmative action is not reverse racism.

While I agree with many of the points made in the article, it frequently commits the ecological fallacy. Regardless, as others have stated, I think measures such as these avoid the actual problem. The actual problem isn't so much overt racism in the now, but due to artifacts of past racism, blacks started off in a much worse position. There are many really crappy schools, many of which are in predominantly black and hispanic areas. Ultimately, AA serves as a crutch, but does nothing to address the actual problem. Overly generalized number adjusting makes some people think we are fixing the problem, but it isn't. The only way to fix the matter is to create truly equal access to high quality education - the kind you find in affluent suburbs - to all people in all areas. It's no easy task, but that is the only real solution.

 

[235788]

Can't wait until white applicants get raped by the Asians and start crying for affirmative action.

ehh the interview will always be used as an "equalizer."

 

[235788]

Truly, there is no ideal solution. However, the beauty of a standardized test is it's a standardized test. Everyone has the chance to demonstrate their knowledge, and the cards fall where they fall. I took one practice test and then took the real thing. I did not take any prep course, nor did my school focus on it, nor did any of my teachers, ever, focus on it.

I agree that we need a bottom-up approach. I think we ask far too much of schools and teachers. "Here, take these 30 kids from 30 different backgrounds, please make them smart and teach them manners. Btw we're only going to pay you $35,000 a year, some of which you'll have to use to buy supplies for your classroom." Where is the parental involvement? Where is the personal accountability?

Bingo. There is none -- hence why disparity exists.

My parents cared very much about me taking advantage of every opportunity and "caring" about education. I'm sure many of the poeple who are on here had parents who did the same, or else you probably wouldn't be here.

And I'll do the same for my kids. The cycle will continue on.

 

[management]

http://www.timwise.org/2011/09/getting-what-we-deserve-wealth-race-and-entitlement-in-america/

Please scroll down to the part headed "Unearned advantage and its opposite," read it, and understand why affirmative action is necessary.

(Edit: Feel free to read the rest of the article, as well.)

Then read

http://www.timwise.org/2010/10/affi...ifference-between-oppression-and-opportunity/

And understand why affirmative action is not reverse racism.

Great articles. Tim Wise is on point.

 

[Aeterni]

Bingo. There is none -- hence why disparity exists.

My parents cared very much about me taking advantage of every opportunity and "caring" about education. I'm sure many of the poeple who are on here had parents who did the same, or else you probably wouldn't be here.

And I'll do the same for my kids. The cycle will continue on.

I do not agree that this adequately explains disparity. It is a factor, of course. Since this discusison is about affirmative action we'll focus on disparity between blacks and whites.

From what you said, I ask two questions:

If we assume that black parents do indeed push their children less, why is this the case? Is it because black parents are somehow inherently less driven to push their children? Asserting that is borderline racist, and difficult to substantiate at best; I hope you'll agree with me that that is not the reason for the lessened emphasis on academics. So from where does it arise? I would argue that it arises out of a long history of not seeing the education system work for them, a relatively recent access (a few generations, maybe two for it to be widespread) to higher education and more limited opportunity after that education is completed - that is to say, directly out of the history of systematized racism in America.


Second, if two children, one black, one white, have the same emphasis on academics at home, would they end up the same? My money is that, on average, you would see less acheivement, however defined, from the black children, on average. This points to a systemic mechanism of producing disparity.

What I'm trying to say is, blaming the parents for not pushing the kids is an oversimplification.

EDIT: As for the personal accountability aspect, I think my response is easily translatable into those terms.

 

[Aeterni]

While I agree with many of the points made in the article, it frequently commits the ecological fallacy. Regardless, as others have stated, I think measures such as these avoid the actual problem. The actual problem isn't so much overt racism in the now, but due to artifacts of past racism, blacks started off in a much worse position. There are many really crappy schools, many of which are in predominantly black and hispanic areas. Ultimately, AA serves as a crutch, but does nothing to address the actual problem. Overly generalized number adjusting makes some people think we are fixing the problem, but it isn't. The only way to fix the matter is to create truly equal access to high quality education - the kind you find in affluent suburbs - to all people in all areas. It's no easy task, but that is the only real solution.

Allow to answer one metaphor with another - I hope, in your career as a physician, you give a man a crutch while waiting for his broken leg to heal.

I agree that AA isn't the end. I doubt that any advocate of AA thinks we should stop there.

 

[SoonerFromTexas]

I COULD CARE LESS whether you think it is a stereotypical response or not. All i am saying is that, these constant threads about URM/AA is really annoying, especially when all those complaining can't do squat about it. Like i said, if they want change, maybe they should march to capitol hill and demand it. These weekly debates are not going to accomplish anything. Exactly where did starting this thread lead? No one gained any valuable insight into the matter than they knew before.

My #1 pet peeve...It's "I couldn't care less." Sorry, but the world needs to know.

 

[eHombre]

http://www.timwise.org/2011/09/getting-what-we-deserve-wealth-race-and-entitlement-in-america/

Please scroll down to the part headed "Unearned advantage and its opposite," read it, and understand why affirmative action is necessary.

(Edit: Feel free to read the rest of the article, as well.)

Then read

http://www.timwise.org/2010/10/affi...ifference-between-oppression-and-opportunity/

And understand why affirmative action is not reverse racism.

👍 The man's on point. Lots of myopic reasoning on this thread.

 

[el poblano]

👍 The man's on point. Lots of myopic reasoning on this thread.

A desperate man justifying codified biased practice based upon the actions and beliefs of generations past. Trust me, working from nothing to something takes much more than special perks for luck of the draw genes- it takes sacrifice and hard work.
Whatever happened to personal accountability and self reliance? I can tell you one thing for sure, my success (thus far) was my doing. I say suck it up and accept that some of us will have to work harder than others for success, but that's life. I had to study harder than our class geniuses, put more time in shadowing than the kids of doctors, and all the while work harder than the rich carrying a job in construction in school to pay my bills.

Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk

 

[Dartmouth2005]

I love this part of her petition:

"Ms. Fisher brought this challenge to the use of race in UT’s undergraduate admissions process seeking monetary and injunctive relief."

Annnnnyway, I agree the process should have nothing to do with race. It is DISCRIMINTATION. No matter what way you look at it. If I had the money I would sue too! Only not for monetary relief, just a fair system for everyone. Anyone with me? Anyone?!?!? No? Have a good day 🙂

Injunctive relief can mean a lot of things. For example, in the law school fraud lawsuits, the plaintiffs are asking that the law schools be ordered to obtain independent third party auditing of their salary and employment data.

Here, she can be asking that they grant prospective relief barring AA in UT admissions for future students.

 

[Sephiroth]

Allow to answer one metaphor with another - I hope, in your career as a physician, you give a man a crutch while waiting for his broken leg to heal.

I agree that AA isn't the end. I doubt that any advocate of AA thinks we should stop there.

and nowhere in my post did I call for the immediate and complete removal of any level of AA. it is something I'd like to see fade away over time, but as I've said, there are problems we need to fix first. And also I think AA over-generalizes. If it benefited people that came from poor areas rather than strictly race, for most nothing would change, but I think a lot of people would have a lot less of a problem with it.

 

[235788]

and nowhere in my post did I call for the immediate and complete removal of any level of AA. it is something I'd like to see fade away over time, but as I've said, there are problems we need to fix first. And also I think AA over-generalizes. If it benefited people that came from poor areas rather than strictly race, for most nothing would change, but I think a lot of people would have a lot less of a problem with it.

i think so too.

 

[ppfizenm]

No More URM

Now I can't pretend to be 1/16th Native American anymore

 

[MumDoc]

And I am sorry, but I don't give a damn whether it is your pet peeve or not. I will write exactly what I want, when I want. I don't need some internet dude to correct me.

My #1 pet peeve...It's "I couldn't care less." Sorry, but the world needs to know.

 

[theseeker4]

And I am sorry, but I don't give a damn whether it is your pet peeve or not. I will write exactly what I want, when I want. I don't need some internet dude to correct me.

Ignorance SHALL NOT be corrected!

 

[MumDoc]

Yep it will not. Especially not by (the self righteous, pompous people) on this pre-med forum of SDN who think they know it all. I like my ignorance and I don't need you or anyone else to worry about it. Keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't need or care for it. Thank you!!

Ignorance SHALL NOT be corrected!

 

[sliceofbread136]

Yep it will not. Especially not by (the self righteous, pompous people) on this pre-med forum of SDN who think they know it all. I like my ignorance and I don't need you or anyone else to worry about it. Keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't need or care for it. Thank you!!

So you will write what you want when you want but everyone else has to keep their thoughts to themselves because you don't care for it? That doesn't seem fair.

 

[SoonerFromTexas]

And I am sorry, but I don't give a damn whether it is your pet peeve or not. I will write exactly what I want, when I want. I don't need some internet dude to correct me.

 

[chopes31]

Yep it will not. Especially not by (the self righteous, pompous people) on this pre-med forum of SDN who think they know it all. I like my ignorance and I don't need you or anyone else to worry about it. Keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't need or care for it. Thank you!!

Is this serious? 😕

 

[kpcrew]

Yep it will not. Especially not by (the self righteous, pompous people) on this pre-med forum of SDN who think they know it all. I like my ignorance and I don't need you or anyone else to worry about it. Keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't need or care for it. Thank you!!

I don't care about your thoughts so I will frequent this public forum, read your posts and type a rebuttal!! Ignorance is Strength!!

 

[FattySlug]

Yep it will not. Especially not by (the self righteous, pompous people) on this pre-med forum of SDN who think they know it all. I like my ignorance and I don't need you or anyone else to worry about it. Keep your thoughts to yourself. I don't need or care for it. Thank you!!

then perhaps you should shut up then since people should keep their thoughts to themselves.