The fine print.

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a gray man

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Yeah except ortho, EM and GS now have to apply civilian which I don’t think was previously the case.
 
Gastrapathy said:
Yup. That’s why the transition for Navy Aerospace Medicine from the inservice list to FTOS/OFI has me suspicious
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Your suspicions are unfounded regarding the Navy unless you have specifically been told RAM is now FTOS. The documents showing it as part of FTOS are not consistent with how the program is actually run from a payback scenario. The MPH at an outside institution is handled via a the FTOS people, but that is strictly and admin thing.
 
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I’m glad you are 100% sure that they haven’t changed the rules. I, however, witnessed the transitions where fellowship was changed to consecutive (yes FTIS fellowship used to be concurrent with residency obligation), where FTOS went consecutive with UME and where 1 year FTOS fellowships went from a 1 year to a 2 year commitment. For the last, they posted a one line “clarification” on the GME website because “this was a reinterpretation of the statute” and that’s all Eli M felt was needed. I knew several people caught by surprise when they signed their fellowship agreements that year.

Show me an email from Eli that states FTIS obligation persists and I’ll be as confident as you. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke. Stuff like that happens all the time. I mean look at this thread, mandatory FTOS application with consecutive obligations.
 
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An O6 friend of mine is just starting RAM. He said the assistant PD said it was just an administrative change due to RAM being under NMOTC and not a standard MTF. Payback is the same per my discussion with this person.

As for the OP. Need clarification on if Army ortho/GS now ONLY apply civilian or this is just part of verbiage explaining what happens if they also apply civilian and get deferred. I imagine just the latter.
 
militaryPHYS said:
An O6 friend of mine is just starting RAM. He said the assistant PD said it was just an administrative change due to RAM being under NMOTC and not a standard MTF. Payback is the same per my discussion with this person.

As for the OP. Need clarification on if Army ortho/GS now ONLY apply civilian or this is just part of verbiage explaining what happens if they also apply civilian and get deferred. I imagine just the latter.
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The latter is mostly correct. First, this is the verbiage from the army letter of instruction for this application cycle. Second, the listed specialties are mandated to apply to both the military and civilian match with the caveat above applying if they get selected for the civilian match. The only change from previous cycles being that now these applicants must apply to the civilian match. I think it’s safe to assume this is the result of the restructuring that is currently underway.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Army ortho, em, and gs are required to apply civilian? As in you absolutely will not get a FTIS spot?
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My guess is that when all the military slots are full that any remaining applicants will match into their civilian deferred residency slot. Seems like a good way to expand those bucket 1 specialties.
 
a gray man said:
My guess is that when all the military slots are full that any remaining applicants will match into their civilian deferred residency slot. Seems like a good way to expand those bucket 1 specialties.
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Right, okay. That's different. HPSP and HSCP students in the Navy are required to apply to ERAS in case all the military spots fill up too. That's not the same as what I thought you were saying, i.e., that HPSP students in the Army are required to do a civilian residency.
 
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a gray man said:
My guess is that when all the military slots are full that any remaining applicants will match into their civilian deferred residency slot. Seems like a good way to expand those bucket 1 specialties.
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They've had Army civilian deferred spots for a few years now, it just wasn't required before to apply through ERAS. And the civilian deferred spots have had consecutive instead of concurrent payback.

Source: am Army civilian sponsored GS
 
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Can HPSP/USUHS medical students choose to only apply for a PGY-1 spot or are you forced to apply for a full residency? I don't think I would want to apply for residency if it came with an inherent risk of extending my AD obligation.
 
DeadCactus said:
Can HPSP/USUHS medical students choose to only apply for a PGY-1 spot or are you forced to apply for a full residency? I don't think I would want to apply for residency if it came with an inherent risk of extending my AD obligation.
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For Army you can apply for just a TY but for USUHS folks that’s quite the payback without completing a residency
 
DeadCactus said:
Can HPSP/USUHS medical students choose to only apply for a PGY-1 spot or are you forced to apply for a full residency? I don't think I would want to apply for residency if it came with an inherent risk of extending my AD obligation.
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In the Navy you are only obligated to apply for pgy-1. You could theoretically gmo/FS/umo your way out, but for USUHS that would be 7 years of that.

But you’re also guaranteed a mil spot from usuhs so it’s a different situation (though you can apply for NADDS or FTOS).
 
So what are the possibilities of deferment (i.e., without Army FTOS support) for those bucket 1 specialties? The requirement that you apply both to civilian and to military is one thing, but is it required that you also apply for FTOS even if you don't want it or the obligation for the additional consecutive repayment term? Will they allow you to defer for unsupported training in bucket 1 specialties as a civilian?
 
orbitsurgMD said:
So what are the possibilities of deferment (i.e., without Army FTOS support) for those bucket 1 specialties? The requirement that you apply both to civilian and to military is one thing, but is it required that you also apply for FTOS even if you don't want it or the obligation for the additional consecutive repayment term? Will they allow you to defer for unsupported training in bucket 1 specialties as a civilian?
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Based on how the letter of instruction reads it looks like those that are allowed to do civilian training will have to do it in a civilian sponsored status which incurs the consecutive obligation.
 
a gray man said:
Based on how the letter of instruction reads it looks like those that are allowed to do civilian training will have to do it in a civilian sponsored status which incurs the consecutive obligation.
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It would appear that one has to apply for the FTOS along with the civilian match. What happens if you request deferment for civilian training but don't ask for FTOS? The instruction doesn't appear to address that option at all (and possibly deliberately out of their sinister interest in applying more years of repayment obligation to their accessions.) They could deny the request for civilian deferment (but that would work contrary to their interest anyway since they would be getting a bucket 1 specialist for free vs the costs of FTOS, which would be ~90K+/yr). That would be stupid, obviously.

The huge additional service obligation is a significant negative element except for those who already have service years and are willing to stay until retirement-eligible under their repayment term, and would possibly have higher pay with higher rank in residency.
 
Mace1370 said:
Mandating FTOS application seems a little malignant to me. Applicants should have the option to specify deferral vs FTOS, imo.
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I confess I don't have the energy to thoroughly examine the fine print.

But interpreting this as a Machiavellian scheme to funnel people into ever-longer ADSOs seems to me to be simultaneously wrong on two fronts.
1) They're really not bad people out to screw anyone.
2) It implies a certain committee cohesion and competence they probably don't have.

Even if applying FTOS is now actually mandatory, and this isn't a misprint or otherwise a mistake, the GMESB has a long history of selecting individuals for multiple positions that are mutually exclusive, and leaving it to the individual to choose which select to accept and which to decline. Every year people get selected for multiple residencies +/- flight or dive. If an applicant applies for FTIS, FTOS, and deferral ... there's no reason the GMESB couldn't select them for both FTOS and deferral.

Would they do that? I don't know. If I'm wrong and this really is an ADSO-stretching scheme, and they hand out a bunch of FTOS selects and few/no deferrals, it's a guarantee they won't get their projected numbers. There will be at least some FTOS-declines in favor of GMO-&-out ... and next year they won't play the same game.

GMO-&-out is always the applicant's trump card.
 
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It’s pretty smart. They are popular specialties with a large applicant pool. You can make half of them stay an extra 4-5 years indentured.
 
I’m also not sure that GMO and out is really a trump card in this scenario unless you accept never getting back into that specialty. Say you apply as instructed, match FTOS Ortho and then leave that program after internship. That would burn some bridges. I’m not sure what happens if you apply, are accepted FTOS and decline. I dont see how you end up in a 1 year program from that.
 
We don't have any Army personnel on here that have access to GME leadership for weighing in?! Theres got to be someone who at least knows a guy/gal to get some input on this.

Otherwise #1 send me the full document and I will take it for action after I finish my boards this week OR #2 someone in the Army just e-mail patricia and ask for a senior level POC for further discussion and clarification. I guess we have more Navy/USMC Oorah on here than Army Hooah. Or is it Huh?! Sounds all the same to me.
 
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