The GRE FACTOR

[sweetlemon]

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This has been an interesting discussion.
I know many people already disagreed that GRE is a measure of intelligence, but I just wanted to voice my own disagreement too.
My native language is not English, and I had never been in an English speaking country up until I started my undergraduate in the United States.
In my own country, I went to the best schools for which we had to pass two rounds of intelligence tests and very hard math and science exams every three years. After moving to the U.S., Even though my English was not good, I went to one of the best UC-s in California. I think I can safely say that I am not stupid and possibly somewhat intelligent.
In my Verbal GRE, I didn't do well at all. I had 400s, (while I was in 700s in math and 5 for writing.) There were words I had never seen or heard before. Second time after more studying, I only had a 570 for verbal and the rest was about the same. Now is verbal section a predictor of my intelligence?
I seriously doubt it. It just shows how many words you know and your knowledge of English. There is nothing creative or tricky in the questions in the verbal section. You either know the words, or you don't. It is just a test of knowledge to me.

[ And, for better or worse, the scores on the Verbal correlate fairly well with traditional measures of intelligence (that's part of the reason that section is so hard to study for).]
That said it's not a perfect test.

 

[UnLurked]

This has been an interesting discussion.
I know many people already disagreed that GRE is a measure of intelligence, but I just wanted to voice my own disagreement too.
My native language is not English, and I had never been in an English speaking country up until I started my undergraduate in the United States.
In my own country, I went to the best schools for which we had to pass two rounds of intelligence tests and very hard math and science exams every three years. After moving to the U.S., Even though my English was not good, I went to one of the best UC-s in California. I think I can safely say that I am not stupid and possibly somewhat intelligent.
In my Verbal GRE, I didn't do well at all. I had 400s, (while I was in 700s in math and 5 for writing.) There were words I had never seen or heard before. Second time after more studying, I only had a 570 for verbal and the rest was about the same. Now is verbal section a predictor of my intelligence?
I seriously doubt it. It just shows how many words you know and your knowledge of English. There is nothing creative or tricky in the questions in the verbal section. You either know the words, or you don't. It is just a test of knowledge to me.

Being a non-native speaker certainly means a test of verbal ability wouldn't be a great gauge of your intelligence and I didn't mean to imply it would be. Verbal ability and, particularly, vocabulary size are highly correlated with IQ. Being a non-native speaker, however, puts you on an uneven playing field because you don't have the lifetime of practice that native speakers have. So you are right that what amounts to a foreign language vocab test is not a good indicator of your IQ.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Being a non-native speaker certainly means a test of verbal ability wouldn't be a great gauge of your intelligence and I didn't mean to imply it would be. Verbal ability and, particularly, vocabulary size are highly correlated with IQ. Being a non-native speaker, however, puts you on an uneven playing field because you don't have the lifetime of practice that native speakers have. So you are right that what amounts to a foreign language vocab test is not a good indicator of your IQ.

Agreed; verbal ability is generally considered an integral part of intelligence, and vocabulary is an integral component of verbal ability. Beyond that, the verbal portion of the GRE tests more than straight vocabulary, as the reading comprehension passages do require some level of reasoning and attention to detail, as do the analogies.

That being said, as you've mentioned, to assert that the GRE is not a measure of intelligence because it is affected by one's non-native speaker status is a potentially-flawed argument. Most traditional IQ tests would be affected by such a factor, but they are still generally considered to be estimates of the underlying factor of IQ. But as with any psychological test, potential error variance must be accounted for. Thus, while the GRE may not be especially valid (in terms of IQ correlations) when administered to an individual struggling with significant language barriers, to say that the test as a whole is globally invalid in such a way would be incorrect.

 

[sweetlemon]

Agreed; verbal ability is generally considered an integral part of intelligence, and vocabulary is an integral component of verbal ability. Beyond that, the verbal portion of the GRE tests more than straight vocabulary, as the reading comprehension passages do require some level of reasoning and attention to detail, as do the analogies.

That being said, as you've mentioned, to assert that the GRE is not a measure of intelligence because it is affected by one's non-native speaker status is a potentially-flawed argument. Most traditional IQ tests would be affected by such a factor, but they are still generally considered to be estimates of the underlying factor of IQ. But as with any psychological test, potential error variance must be accounted for. Thus, while the GRE may not be especially valid (in terms of IQ correlations) when administered to an individual struggling with significant language barriers, to say that the test as a whole is globally invalid in such a way would be incorrect.

My knowledge might be limited in terms of IQ tests. But as far as I remember, in those tests even though they have to use a particular language, the focus is not the depth and breadth of knowledge of that particular language itself. It's true that a lot of the tests would be somewhat effected by a certain language and culture, but GRE verbal is solely a test of knowledge of one language and heavily effected by a knowledge and exposure to that particular language.
It's true that the verbal section has some reading and analogy. The reading, I found, to be pretty much straight forward. If you read through the passage once, and it makes sense, then it's not hard to answer the questions. Only the analogy might be a bit interesting, but even that, if you don't know the words (which I found hard) in the question, it's very unlikely that you will be able to find the bridge and get close to anything that resembles a test of intelligence.


However, I am not really against having a standardized test. I like the idea of having a test that is more or less similar for everyone, but I don't have much faith in the general GRE.

 

[Aura5]

In case it warms some hearts, I also took the LSAT and the GRE and I felt the latter was more difficult. I scored in a higher percentile on the LSAT.

Yes you warmed my heart!

 

[Grif]

It just shows how many words you know and your knowledge of English. There is nothing creative or tricky in the questions in the verbal section. You either know the words, or you don't. It is just a test of knowledge to me.

Oh yes, I feel the same way. After studying some of the more common antonym/comparison words, I had a near-instant 50-point jump in practice test scores. Overall, the antonym portion is totally useless.

The GRE is weighted a bit too much by admissions in it's current state. I think with the big revamp in 2011 it will be a much better tool. Right now, with how the GRE is scored, missing 5 questions can mean a 50-point change in your score. Miss a few here and there and you may miss your goal by a hundred points or more. Notice I said "your goal" not "1200."

In quantitative, honestly some of those questions are tricky f*ckers. Especially hen the answer is "Cannot be determined." Realistically you can infer whether angle A is larger than angle B etc by looking at it, but it doesn't count because they don't necessarily use scale. I'm terrible at memorizing equations, but it's something that has to be done. So far so good as I've bumped my pre-test score up about 200 points.

Weirdly, I always fall asleep during standardized math exams. It's happened in the PSAT, ACT, GED, and most Accuplacers. I seem to be okay with computerized exams, so maybe I won't snooze my way to a 350 Quantitative score.

I personally am not sitting the GRE until my pre-test score hits at least 1350. That way, I have a good leeway for unforeseen messups.

 

[Grif]

Quick GRE Quantitative Practice Test

Crappy Question One: Which is larger, A or B?

A=angle a, B=angle b

Answer: cannot be determined, even though a snap judgment would lead you to angle b.



Better Question Two: which is bigger, A or B?
A=angle a, B=120 degree angle

Answer: B, since a flat plane represents 180 degrees total. a=60, like pshaw.

 

[Aura5]

Quick GRE Quantitative Practice Test

Crappy Question One: Which is larger, A or B?

A=angle a, B=angle b

Answer: cannot be determined, even though a snap judgment would lead you to angle b.



Better Question Two: which is bigger, A or B?
A=angle a, B=120 degree angle

Answer: B, since a flat plane represents 180 degrees total. a=60, like pshaw.

Well I'll hafta keep an eye out for these shenanigans when I take it.