The Kind of Anti-DO Bias We Should REALLY Be Talking About

[deleted645092]

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So during my time in medical school I’ve heard all kinds of things about the upcoming merger and speculation about the types of bias we’re going to be seeing, whether it be former AOA programs preferring to still take DOs, going half and half, etc, pros and cons of students taking Step 1 and it opening doors to programs, and the like. However with my classmates preparing for their 4th year rotations and setting up always/ sub-Is/ auditions, I’ve seen some really obvious anti-DO bias on the part of some of the programs...

Specifically certain programs in Florida and Colorado, specifically University of Colorado, charging DO students $4,150 dollar application processing fee to apply to rotate through VSAS, while MD students pay $150. With everyone being worried that programs might screen out DO students or not rank them because of anti-DO bias, at least this is basically under the radar and can’t be proven, short of taking them to court and sifting through the applications of every student looking for a spot at a program. I thought this kind of overt discrimination would be frowned upon or at least talked about, if not illegal.

No matter your opinion on the quality of a DO student vs. an MD student, I had never thought that programs would actively screen out DO students by actively preventing them from even making it to a program to rotate as a 4th year, and basically rule them out before application season even comes around. I’m really surprised I’ve never even seen this talked about.

 

[Goro]

Is this legal for them to do,??

If so, good way for former AOA slots in uber specialties to protect DO grads. Payback is a b****, after all.

 

[Rekt]

So during my time in medical school I’ve heard all kinds of things about the upcoming merger and speculation about the types of bias we’re going to be seeing, whether it be former AOA programs preferring to still take DOs, going half and half, etc, pros and cons of students taking Step 1 and it opening doors to programs, and the like. However with my classmates preparing for their 4th year rotations and setting up always/ sub-Is/ auditions, I’ve seen some really obvious anti-DO bias on the part of some of the programs...

Specifically certain programs in Florida and Colorado, specifically University of Colorado, charging DO students $4,150 dollar application processing fee to apply to rotate through VSAS, while MD students pay $150. With everyone being worried that programs might screen out DO students or not rank them because of anti-DO bias, at least this is basically under the radar and can’t be proven, short of taking them to court and sifting through the applications of every student looking for a spot at a program. I thought this kind of overt discrimination would be frowned upon or at least talked about, if not illegal.

No matter your opinion on the quality of a DO student vs. an MD student, I had never thought that programs would actively screen out DO students by actively preventing them from even making it to a program to rotate as a 4th year, and basically rule them out before application season even comes around. I’m really surprised I’ve never even seen this talked about.

You'll probably be really upset to learn that DOs get a different version of VSAS with programs that don't take DOs already taken out.

 

[ortnakas]

You'll probably be really upset to learn that DOs get a different version of VSAS with programs that don't take DOs already taken out.

In my opinion, that’s a good thing. It would be worse if programs took your application, money and a month of your time as an audition if they had no intention of seriously considering you as a potential resident anyway.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Since when is this news? I thought this info has been conveyed to us by previous upperclassmen throughout the years.

U of Colorado isn't open towards DOs unless your Step 1 is 20+ above their normal MD class plus a great personality, A+++ audition performance there, and 9/10 on the hot level scale.

 

[atomheart]

Pay to win an II. Though I know of one DO who paid the Colorado fee and did not match after interviewing and ranking it #1. Yes, it is downright disrespectful and unjustifiable. It is a precursor experience to the joke that is the modern day residency matching system.

 

[Oh_Gee]

So during my time in medical school I’ve heard all kinds of things about the upcoming merger and speculation about the types of bias we’re going to be seeing, whether it be former AOA programs preferring to still take DOs, going half and half, etc, pros and cons of students taking Step 1 and it opening doors to programs, and the like. However with my classmates preparing for their 4th year rotations and setting up always/ sub-Is/ auditions, I’ve seen some really obvious anti-DO bias on the part of some of the programs...

Specifically certain programs in Florida and Colorado, specifically University of Colorado, charging DO students $4,150 dollar application processing fee to apply to rotate through VSAS, while MD students pay $150. With everyone being worried that programs might screen out DO students or not rank them because of anti-DO bias, at least this is basically under the radar and can’t be proven, short of taking them to court and sifting through the applications of every student looking for a spot at a program. I thought this kind of overt discrimination would be frowned upon or at least talked about, if not illegal.

No matter your opinion on the quality of a DO student vs. an MD student, I had never thought that programs would actively screen out DO students by actively preventing them from even making it to a program to rotate as a 4th year, and basically rule them out before application season even comes around. I’m really surprised I’ve never even seen this talked about.

better for it to be on the radar than under the radar

 

[Lawpy]

The continued anti-DO biases are unfortunate but elitism is sadly predominant in academia.

 

[sab3156]

So during my time in medical school I’ve heard all kinds of things about the upcoming merger and speculation about the types of bias we’re going to be seeing, whether it be former AOA programs preferring to still take DOs, going half and half, etc, pros and cons of students taking Step 1 and it opening doors to programs, and the like. However with my classmates preparing for their 4th year rotations and setting up always/ sub-Is/ auditions, I’ve seen some really obvious anti-DO bias on the part of some of the programs...

Specifically certain programs in Florida and Colorado, specifically University of Colorado, charging DO students $4,150 dollar application processing fee to apply to rotate through VSAS, while MD students pay $150. With everyone being worried that programs might screen out DO students or not rank them because of anti-DO bias, at least this is basically under the radar and can’t be proven, short of taking them to court and sifting through the applications of every student looking for a spot at a program. I thought this kind of overt discrimination would be frowned upon or at least talked about, if not illegal.

No matter your opinion on the quality of a DO student vs. an MD student, I had never thought that programs would actively screen out DO students by actively preventing them from even making it to a program to rotate as a 4th year, and basically rule them out before application season even comes around. I’m really surprised I’ve never even seen this talked about.

First of all, it is not illegal. Programs have the right to prohibit DOs from rotating and applying to their residency programs. DO students rotating through and attending residency programs does in fact make those programs look less competitive and less prestigious. Programs are protecting themselves from that, and it is a very simple concept to understand.

Second of all, you should ask AOA and COCA to clean up their act before contemplating how to even begin asking the question of DO and MD parity.

 

[deleted645092]

Since when is this news? I thought this info has been conveyed to us by previous upperclassmen throughout the years.

U of Colorado isn't open towards DOs unless your Step 1 is 20+ above their normal MD class plus a great personality, A+++ audition performance there, and 9/10 on the hot level scale.

I understand that they're not DO friendly, my general surgery preceptor trained there and told me all about it, but it was just surprising to see that they blatantly force you to pay $4k just to apply to rotate. I didn't expect to see it be so obvious I guess.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Second of all, you should ask AOA and COCA to clean up their act before contemplating how to even begin asking the question of DO and MD parity.

Current leadership is pimping us out like cheap suits dude. There are a lot of aware DOs who were trained at prestigious ACGME programs in non-primary care who all agree that a lot of things need to be changed, mainly the support for our clinical ed, in order to remain relevant in the future. Otherwise, the DO profession is in deep trouble bc ACGME residency hospitals are kicking out DO students and starting MD medical schools all in the name of profit.

Just work hard and hope for the best dude.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I understand that they're not DO friendly, my general surgery preceptor trained there and told me all about it, but it was just surprising to see that they blatantly force you to pay $4k just to apply to rotate. I didn't expect to see it be so obvious I guess.

Forget Colorado and that overrated program. Mayo or Cleveland Clinic GS program will welcome you if that's what you're interested in.

 

[deleted645092]

First of all, it is not illegal. Programs have the right to prohibit DOs from rotating and applying to their residency programs. DO students rotating through and attending residency programs does in fact make those programs look less competitive and less prestigious. Programs are protecting themselves from that, and it is a very simple concept to understand.

Second of all, you should ask AOA and COCA to clean up their act before contemplating how to even begin asking the question of DO and MD parity.

I'm familiar with the fact that DO residents gives an impression of decreased competitiveness. I just thought part of the goal of the merger was to alleviate some of the discrimination. My schools dean was a past AOA president so he told us all about some of the goals and consequences, and assured us this kind of thing wouldn't happen, so this type of overt discrimination is surprising.

 

[deleted645092]

Current leadership is pimping us out like cheap suits dude. There are a lot of aware DOs who were trained at prestigious ACGME programs in non-primary care who all agree that a lot of things need to be changed, mainly the support for our clinical ed, in order to remain relevant in the future. Otherwise, the DO profession is in deep trouble bc ACGME residency hospitals are kicking out DO students and starting MD medical schools all in the name of profit.

Just work hard and hope for the best dude.

Do we go to the same school cause what you said about hospitals kicking out DO rotating students and opening an MD school is exactly what just happened with my core site. My class is the last class to rotate here.

 

[sab3156]

I'm familiar with the fact that DO residents gives an impression of decreased competitiveness. I just thought part of the goal of the merger was to alleviate some of the discrimination. My schools dean was a past AOA president so he told us all about some of the goals and consequences, and assured us this kind of thing wouldn't happen, so this type of overt discrimination is surprising.

There was no such goal. The merger was the result of a power play by the ACGME. The DO leadership continues acting like it is going to magically reduce anti-DO bias, but this is just a baseless lie. And they also lie about legal ramifications for programs refusing to allow DOs to rotate and for programs refusing to interview/rank DOs.

 

[Wjldenver]

The last time I looked into rotation expenses at CU Med, there was a 50% discount for DO students who are Colorado residents. Of course, even with the discount, DO rotation expenses are outlandish at CU Med. I have always advised DO students not to waste their $ there. Rotate and apply for residencies at places which will at least consider you as viable candidates.

 

[IsWhat]

Interestingly enough, I worked for a University of Colorado PD. When confronted about the DO “bias” his/her response was always, “they have their own residencies, they don’t accept our students - so why should I accept them”. The year the MD/DO residencies merged you saw an influx of DOs in various UC programs... Interesting.

 

[thepoopologist]

Its a jungle out there, good luck

 

[MrTaco92]

Interestingly enough, I worked for a University of Colorado PD. When confronted about the DO “bias” his/her response was always, “they have their own residencies, they don’t accept our students - so why should I accept them”. The year the MD/DO residencies merged you saw an influx of DOs in various UC programs... Interesting.

I'm confused. The merger isn't finalized until 2020 so what merger are you referring to?

 

[getfat]

Specifically certain programs in Florida

Which programs are this? (Or a link). Just curious.

 

[alprazoslam]

Who cares don’t go there

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Myself and some students recently brought this up (the CU charge) to our dean and he actually told us to gather as many example of this as we could find on website and send them all to him. I have no idea if this is actually true are not and I’m not holding my breath on anything changing, but he said based on certain aspects and agreements of the merger this would be warrant for legal again.

 

[Oh_Gee]

Myself and some students recently brought this up (the CU charge) to our dean and he actually told us to gather as many example of this as we could find on website and send them all to him. I have no idea if this is actually true are not and I’m not holding my breath on anything changing, but he said based on certain aspects and agreements of the merger this would be warrant for legal again.

Visiting Medical Student Clerkships
for DO students not in florida
"Effective January 1, 2018, there will be a weekly rotation fee of $900 and application processing fee of $30.00 for students from Osteopathic schools outside of the state of Florida and international medical schools."
they do have a decent number of DO's on their IM roster so not sure why they're doing this

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Visiting Medical Student Clerkships
for DO students not in florida
"Effective January 1, 2018, there will be a weekly rotation fee of $900 and application processing fee of $30.00 for students from Osteopathic schools outside of the state of Florida and international medical schools."
they do have a decent number of DO's on their IM roster so not sure why they're doing this

Honestly the better argument against this can be made by the fact that these fees drastically disinfranchise poorer medical students. I know plenty of DO students whose rich parents would pay that and it wouldn’t even be a drop in the bucket for them. But a DO student on full loans and a poor family is at even more of a disadvantage.

 

[Goro]

Visiting Medical Student Clerkships
for DO students not in florida
"Effective January 1, 2018, there will be a weekly rotation fee of $900 and application processing fee of $30.00 for students from Osteopathic schools outside of the state of Florida and international medical schools."
they do have a decent number of DO's on their IM roster so not sure why they're doing this

On the face of it, it looks like that they are trying to protect rotation sites for in-state Florida DO students

 

[puahate]

I have a dream that DOs and MDs will one day live in a MATCH system where they will not be judged by the letters behind their names but by the STEP scores and clincal performance.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

First of all, it is not illegal. Programs have the right to prohibit DOs from rotating and applying to their residency programs. DO students rotating through and attending residency programs does in fact make those programs look less competitive and less prestigious. Programs are protecting themselves from that, and it is a very simple concept to understand.

Second of all, you should ask AOA and COCA to clean up their act before contemplating how to even begin asking the question of DO and MD parity.

As I have said in prior posts, we got kicked out of ACGME several years ago when 500 MD students didnt match after the SOAP. AOA didnt have enough slots for all of DO grads. AOA agreed to merger as it was the most politically expedient. The merger will not end DO bias nor will changing the degree to MD. PDs will notice the name of the prior DO school when screening candidates. We need to stop opening new schools and stop taking marginal candidates for DO school. We could reduce DO acceptances by 30% for starters.

 

[group_theory]

As I have said in prior posts, we got kicked out of ACGME several years ago when 500 MD students didnt match after the SOAP. AOA didnt have enough slots for all prof DO grads. AOA agreed to merger as it was the most politically expedient. The merger will not end DO bias nor will changing the degree to MD. PDs will notice the name of the prior DO school when screening candidates. We need to stop opening new schools and stop taking marginal candidates for DO school. We could reduce DO acceptances by 30% for starters.

Not quite accurate (in terms of history) - it started when the ACGME proposed changes in the rules that would affect fellowships ... the wordings of the proposed changes would affect DOs who did an AOA internship or AOA residency from not being able to do an ACGME fellowship. The AOA was caught off guard with the proposals, and the ACGME didn't realize the impact it had on DOs (since their targets were FMGs). They got together and tried to come to an agreement. The first attempt failed miserably (with the ACGME planning on proceeding with their original plan, with the AOA having no leverage) ... their 2nd attempt was this proposal of residency merger (and giving the AOA some seats on the acgme/rrc boards)

If you search back half a decades, you can find threads that chronicle these talks/changes.


I agree that bias will still be there, and that combining residency programs won't change that. If a program, PD, or institution is bias against DOs, they will be bias against DOs, whether nor not there are separate AOA residency programs or not.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Not quite accurate - it started when the ACGME proposed changes in the rules that would affect fellowships ... the wordings of the proposed changes would affect DOs who did an AOA internship or AOA residency from not being able to do an ACGME fellowship. The AOA was caught off guard with the proposals, and the ACGME didn't realize the impact it had on DOs (since their targets were FMGs). They got together and tried to come to an agreement. The first attempt failed miserably (with the ACGME planning on proceeding with their original plan, with the AOA having no leverage) ... their 2nd attempt was this proposal of residency merger (and giving the AOA some seats on the acgme/rrc boards)

If you search back half a decades, you can find threads that chronicle these talks/changes.

And yet there are some PDs that would rather take a FMG MD over a DO due to the MD vs DO initials.

AOA leadership is failing big time.

 

[Chibucks15]

And yet there are some PDs that would rather take a FMG MD over a DO due to the MD vs DO initials.

AOA leadership is failing big time.

Yeah they are not doing the best and there’s no denying that but conversely, what leverage do they have to tell a PD what to do? Be ready to get laughed out of the room if any leadership told ACGME PDs what to do in any capacity.

We’re a smaller minority than American IMGs in terms of the match. Why would a PD care? If they’re gonna be dbags about letters behind our names rather than our actual clinical acumen, then that’s how it is. Eventually it will change but not for a long time. I mean look how long it took to even get to this point

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Not quite accurate (in terms of history) - it started when the ACGME proposed changes in the rules that would affect fellowships ... the wordings of the proposed changes would affect DOs who did an AOA internship or AOA residency from not being able to do an ACGME fellowship. The AOA was caught off guard with the proposals, and the ACGME didn't realize the impact it had on DOs (since their targets were FMGs). They got together and tried to come to an agreement. The first attempt failed miserably (with the ACGME planning on proceeding with their original plan, with the AOA having no leverage) ... their 2nd attempt was this proposal of residency merger (and giving the AOA some seats on the acgme/rrc boards)

If you search back half a decades, you can find threads that chronicle these talks/changes.


I agree that bias will still be there, and that combining residency programs won't change that. If a program, PD, or institution is bias against DOs, they will be bias against DOs, whether nor not there are separate AOA residency programs or not.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. My comments come from a personal communication with one of my Deans. I dont dispute your comments or the earlier threads. I do believe my post was accurate and explains why we eventually were disqualified from the ACGME. Imagine donors and alumni whose MD children did not match after the SOAP, while DOs were accepted into residencies. Why are they taking DOs instead of my kid? As I stated earlier, the ACGME did not exist to advance the education of DOs in the past. Now they control how they will be educated. I suspect it wont be a level playing field

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. My comments come from a personal communication with one of my Deans. I dont dispute your comments or the earlier threads. I do believe my post was accurate and explains why we eventually were disqualified from the ACGME. Imagine donors and alumni whose MD children did not match after the SOAP, while DOs were accepted into residencies. Why are they taking DOs instead of my kid? As I stated earlier, the ACGME did not exist to advance the education of DOs in the past. Now they control how they will be educated. I suspect it wont be a level playing field

What about the fact that the AOA owns 30% of the voting seats on the ACGME board? Is that not worth anything? Can't the AOA use that in the future to alleviate some of the bias we'll be experiencing from some PDs?

 

[Lexdiamondz]

What about the fact that the AOA owns 30% of the voting seats on the ACGME board? Is that not worth anything? Can't the AOA use that in the future to alleviate some of the bias we'll be experiencing from some PDs?

Just remember that it's still a two-way street - allopathic folks can make just as much of a stink over former AOA programmes that still favour DOs.

 

[sab3156]

What about the fact that the AOA owns 30% of the voting seats on the ACGME board? Is that not worth anything? Can't the AOA use that in the future to alleviate some of the bias we'll be experiencing from some PDs?

No, and your questions highlight the naivety that DO students have with regard to why there is a bias and how the ACGME residency world works.

Just remember that it's still a two-way street - allopathic folks can make just as much of a stink over former AOA programmes that still favour DOs.

I find these cases to be comical. I guess cranial OMM and the name of AT Still is more important than making your program more reputable so you can attract better residents.

 

[Sardonix]

I find these cases to be comical. I guess cranial OMM and the name of AT Still is more important than making your program more reputable so you can attract better residents.

As much as I love OMM bashing as the next fella, I don't think that's the scenario here. Having talked to multiple baby boomer-aged DO attendings in competitive fields like Ortho, ENT, Ophtho, Uro etc. they are aware of the problems the merger will create for DO students. While none of these individuals were at academic centers, they like teaching DO students and want to do what they can to help said students follow in their footsteps.

Extrapolating from those interactions, I can't blame soon-to-be-former AOA residencies wanting to select for DO students in the match. If I was an DO ENT program director and I believed in the quality of DO education and wanted future DOs to get to where I am, I'd be pretty pissed about how unfair the playing field is becoming.

 

[anon6134]

If I was an DO ENT program director and I believed in the quality of DO education and wanted future DOs to get to where I am, I'd be pretty pissed about how unfair the playing field is becoming.

Tough argument with the number of DO schools opening, that impact with the quality of student entering, and the embarrassing quality of some of these schools "rotations". If you want to act equal, you need to be equal

 

[sab3156]

As much as I love OMM bashing as the next fella, I don't think that's the scenario here. Having talked to multiple baby boomer-aged DO attendings in competitive fields like Ortho, ENT, Ophtho, Uro etc. they are aware of the problems the merger will create for DO students. While none of these individuals were at academic centers, they like teaching DO students and want to do what they can to help said students follow in their footsteps.

Extrapolating from those interactions, I can't blame soon-to-be-former AOA residencies wanting to select for DO students in the match. If I was an DO ENT program director and I believed in the quality DO education and wanted future DOs to get to where I am, I'd be pretty pissed about how unfair the playing field is becoming.

I was only half serious about the OMM comment, and I largely agree with you about why these osteopathic PDs want to keep the club the way it is. I just find the situation to be funny - they are limiting themselves to the weakest applicant pool this way.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

As much as I love OMM bashing as the next fella, I don't think that's the scenario here. Having talked to multiple baby boomer-aged DO attendings in competitive fields like Ortho, ENT, Ophtho, Uro etc. they are aware of the problems the merger will create for DO students. While none of these individuals were at academic centers, they like teaching DO students and want to do what they can to help said students follow in their footsteps.

Extrapolating from those interactions, I can't blame soon-to-be-former AOA residencies wanting to select for DO students in the match. If I was an DO ENT program director and I believed in the quality of DO education and wanted future DOs to get to where I am, I'd be pretty pissed about how unfair the playing field is becoming.

Simple solution: start more desirable specialty residencies instead of mooching off the ACGME side

25% of Fam Med AOA residencies in the AOA are unmatched, and zero for all surgical specialties, Neuro, PMR, and Anesthesia. It’s very obvious where the demand is. Not surprising that our students in these desirable specialties are facing more challenges matching on the ACGME side.

 

[Scrubs101]

I was only half serious about the OMM comment, and I largely agree with you about why these osteopathic PDs want to keep the club the way it is. I just find the situation to be funny - they are limiting themselves to the weakest applicant pool this way.

Alright I’ll bite and play devils advocate.

The best applicants to a harvard program PD and the best applicants to a community program PD can be entirely different. Ive spoken to AOA residents and have heard talks from AOA program attendings/PDs in competitive specialties. They care very much less about picking residents that have the highest scores/most research productivity and care a ton about picking a student that has the personality theyre looking for . Someone who gets along with the residents/staff, shows up early and leaves late, basically someone with a good work ethic. By no means does this mean the the all-stars pumping out phd amounts of research and scoring 260+ dont have the attitude, they most definitely do. Its just the AOA PDs arent focused on getting those 260+ 10+ pubs people that didnt even bother to rotate with them so they could get to know them. Once you hit a certain score cut off to show you got the meat, its all about performing on away rotations and really showing that you can get along with the team.

So if they’ve had no issue getting the type of students they want in the past, and graduating the type of doctors theyre aiming to graduate. Then you can see why they are more inclined to stick to the applicant pool theyre used to (and feel attached to, ie seems like programs with MD PDs are more likely take take MDs but this is just based off few observations).

 

[Sardonix]

Tough argument with the number of DO schools opening, that impact with the quality of student entering, and the embarrassing quality of some of these schools "rotations". If you want to act equal, you need to be equal

DO PDs in highly competitive specialties are likely used to working with the cream of the crop of all DO students so they would probably agree with you, and I agree as well that all these DO schools need to stop reproducing like rabbits. But I hardly think a single PD, no matter how powerful they are in their program, is able to tell COCA what's what.

 

[Sardonix]

Simple solution: start more desirable specialty residencies instead of mooching off the ACGME side

25% of Fam Med AOA residencies in the AOA are unmatched, and zero for all surgical specialties, Neuro, PMR, and Anesthesia. It’s very obvious where the demand is. Not surprising that our students in these desirable specialties are facing more challenges matching on the ACGME side.

While I understand your position and appreciate what you are saying, the moment those FM residencies start closing down or reducing numbers is the moment this forum immediately starts crying and saying the match is hopeless and we're all gonna die homeless... more than they do already.

 

[Goro]

Just remember that it's still a two-way street - allopathic folks can make just as much of a stink over former AOA programmes that still favour DOs.

Except there are fewer of these

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Except there are fewer of these

True, but the relevant ones are highly desirable - historically AOA surgical subs and derm programmes.

 

[Wjldenver]

In my view, the AOA/COCA leadership team is totally inept. Hasn't anyone in a leadership role in these organizations ever taken a class in strategic planning? When all of the new DO schools come on-line, there will be an inflection point when the DO school world will begin to parallel the Law School world. And it's getting so bad in Law School land, that the ABA is finally growing a back-bone and will close/sanction those Law Schools which have 25% of the students in their graduating class who are simply incapable of passing the bar exam after multiple attempts.

As more under-qualified students are admitted to the growing number of new DO schools, I'm willing to bet COMLEX (and most certainly USMLE) performance will begin to increasingly suffer. The DO Match/Place rates in the future will probably not be a pretty picture either. Any management consulting firm would advise the AOA/COCA to minimize rampant DO school expansion. How about focusing on quality improvement instead, what a concept.

TaxProf Blog: WSJ: Do Enough Law Graduates Pass The Bar Exam?

 

[Sardonix]

In my view, the AOA/COCA leadership team is totally inept. Hasn't anyone in a leadership role in these organizations ever taken a class in strategic planning? When all of the new DO schools come on-line, there will be an inflection point when the DO school world will begin to parallel the Law School world. And it's getting so bad in Law School land, that the ABA is finally growing a back-bone and will close/sanction those Law Schools which have 25% of the students in their graduating class who are simply incapable of passing the bar exam after multiple attempts.

As more under-qualified students are admitted to the growing number of new DO schools, I'm willing to bet COMLEX (and most certainly USMLE) performance will begin to increasingly suffer. The DO Match/Place rates in the future will probably not be a pretty picture either. Any management consulting firm would advise the AOA/COCA to minimize rampant DO school expansion. How about focusing on quality improvement instead, what a concept.

TaxProf Blog: WSJ: Do Enough Law Graduates Pass The Bar Exam?

I assume they believe everything will be solved if residency spots are ever expanded in an adequate number. Though it does not justify the practice, it would certainly alleviate the stress of qualified DO graduates worrying about matching. Underqualified students unable to pass classes/boards presumably wouldn't even make it to that point.

 

[Chibucks15]

I assume they believe everything will be solved if residency spots are ever expanded in an adequate number. Though it does not justify the practice, it would certainly alleviate the stress of qualified DO graduates worrying about matching. Underqualified students unable to pass classes/boards presumably wouldn't even make it to that point.

Exactly...that would solve a lot of issues, but unfortunately nobody is stepping up and creating the slots. I know where many DO schools are, there definitely aren't large hospitals, but there would be room for a small residency program here and there. Hell I'm sure there are people out there wanting to get into academic medicine that haven't been able to either. I just wonder when the tipping point will be that will necessitate that change

 

[Goro]

Exactly...that would solve a lot of issues, but unfortunately nobody is stepping up and creating the slots. I know where many DO schools are, there definitely aren't large hospitals, but there would be room for a small residency program here and there. Hell I'm sure there are people out there wanting to get into academic medicine that haven't been able to either. I just wonder when the tipping point will be that will necessitate that change

AFAIK, my school appears to be to be creating a decent number of residency slots for our grads with some local hospitals. I think one or two of the newer southern schools are doing the same. Any port in a storm.

As I have posted previously, a huge unknown in all of this is what happens to the number of US doctors when the Baby Boomer docs start retiring or dying off. I suspect that a magic number will happen where we lose more docs than we are creating, so that we have an honest-to-Gawd physician shortage, and the bottleneck of residency might get relieved.

I also suspect that schools, especially the newer ones (which are the ones most at risk for sanction) will fail out more students than have them risk going unmatched. I believe that we're seeing this already at some of the weakest schools. Personally, I'd rather have a school have a higher attrition rate than a high unmatched rate.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Did you guys see the number of unfilled FM, IM, and EM slots in the recent AOA match? We need more DO bodies to fill those seats. Forget standards and medical competency.

 

[Chibucks15]

Did you guys see the number of unfilled FM, IM, and EM slots in the recent AOA match? We need more DO bodies to fill those seats. Forget standards and medical competency.

I dont know much about it but isn't it probable that since its the last one, the vast majority of DO grads didn't even apply through the AOA match? I don't remember reading anything that says we have to do it. If I was applying this year I honestly wouldn't have thrown an app unless I felt like I had no shot in the ACGME.

And those seats will get filled, I'm guessing with scramblers

 

[Anti-PD1]

This absolutely sucks and I empathize. Medicine is steeped in prestige, but only insofar as how much you let it be for yourself.

A good friend of mine, a DO, matched in a very competitive field and his co-resident went to Hopkins for med school, birthplace of modern medicine.

Slowly, as DOs continue to enter these fields on merit and tenacity, we may see this bias crumble.