The life of an academic radiologist?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

hiya123456

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
13
Reaction score
12
Can any diagnostic radiologists offer any info about an academic attending's day-to-day life? I looked through some threads, and most of them seemed to focus on PP.

1) What are the hours like for an academic DR? How often are calls? Pace of work?
2) Balance between clinical, research, and teaching?
3) The job market in academia?
4) Collaboration with other departments (neurosurgery, ortho, EM, etc.)? Reputation/perception of DR by other medical specialties? I'd heard that DR's sometimes aren't considered "real doctors" by other specialties (esp. surgical), though that seems ridiculous given the work that DR's do.
5) How often do you see patients? Do procedures (if you are vs. aren't a IR)?
6) How does life as an academic attending compare with that of a resident?
7) What do you like most/least about the field?

I'm a current med student trying to find out more info about DR and would appreciate any insight or advice about the field. Thanks in advance! :)

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
There's a lot of variability in the day-to-day life, depending on rank and speciality. I imagine there's more variability in schedule than with private practice.

1) I and my colleagues are usually in the reading from about 7:30 - 6:00, but I've worked in institutions where attendings don't show up until 9 and leave around 4:20. It depends on the culture of the department. I can imagine coming in later, but I wouldn't leave before the list was clear.
- Calls vary depending on staffing and specialty. They vary in format quite a bit. At one place the attendings would read 5-11 during the weekdays, then all day Saturday, not Sunday. Some are home call all week and in hospital on the weekend. There are very few that are home call at all times (I don't know of any, but I imagine there must be some)
- Pace of work varies by specialty, staffing (attending and trainee), time of year. It's variable, but the pace has been increasing everywhere

2) Depends on what you were hired for. You can be 95% clinical and 5% teaching. You can be 80% clinical, 10% teaching, and 10% research. Typically, the less clinical you do, the more is expected of you in other ways (i.e. publishing or losing the time). If you want to be less than 80% clinical, you generally need grant support: good luck with that.

3) Job market depends somewhat on specialty. It's generally ok, but the job you're getting is very different than a PP job, so it's not really fair to compare them. You can get a job anywhere, but they may pay you <5% of what you should be making. What is the job market like for "good" academic jobs? Depends on what "good" means to you. High paying? Forget it. Promotion possibilities? Examine the dice. Etc.

4) In academics you collaborate all day long. Whether other people take you seriously or not is up to you.

5) I do a lot of non-IR procedures. I enjoy it. It can be anywhere from 0-4 days per week. As the junior person, it's unlikely you can avoid procedure duty, even if you wanted to.

6) It depends on which department and which residency. There are some residencies where the residents show up at 8:30 - 9:00, do barely any work, disappear mysteriously for hours, and then leave at 5:00 on the dot. In some departments, this is the attendings' schedule. Your attending career is unlikely to be like this; Radiology's a field where you tend to work harder as an attending than as a resident. You will probably feel like you're working as hard as your residents, they are likely to think you're not working at all. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle for both groups.

7) I like this field and I like academics. Would choose again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Also, I think there's a false dichotomy that is prevalent out there in the rads community: academic vs. private practice.

I think it's a false dichotomy, not because they are somehow similar, but the categories are no longer relevant. The real choice is between health system employee (often a university hospital) and private practice.

I'm cynical, but I don't think private practive can win this one (unfortunately), and the pointless rants that occur about lazy academics and glutting of the system with rads trainees... sure, sure... but private practice is not going to die from that. Private practice is going to die because the government is going to effectively make the playing field so lopsided in favor of massive health systems (mostly through economies of scale... are private practices ready to survive negotiating for bundled payments with large health systems that are looking to expand?). If we decrease the numbers of trainees by 10%, that will not change a thing in the long run since fewer radiologists in a bundled care system -- in which the bundles keep getting discounted lower and lower -- is not going to make them that much more valuable. The supply could go down, and demand could go up... but if the price is not allowed to adjust naturally to S&D (such as in a system where reimbursement is almost arbitrarily set downwards over time) then docs will end up chasing peanut shells around unless they have the leverage of a large health system to keep some of those peanuts in the bundle. This is eventually going to happen, because the government wants it to (e.g. MACRA) and radiology is no exception. As a health system employee, you will have little to no leverage and will basically become an employee like everyone else... that is "academics". PP will eventually become "academics" with less teaching responsibility, and "academics" will not be allowed to take time off from the volume without grant support. Similar to the possible problem with increasing number of U.S. med school grads not automatically getting a residency spot because of a fixed number of residency positions, this is likely going to translate upwards as well and getting a job out of fellowship will not be a given since the health system doesn't care how the work gets done... as long as it gets done cheaply. Like my earlier post, the metrics need to change at a U.S. health system level in order to recognize resident work, otherwise a more expensive department (more rads than residents) will look inefficient and get penalized. The idea that there are lazy academics abusing the poor residents is out of date. The health system margins will decrease over time and the weakest group (the residents) will get hit first and hardest, like any business. The salaries of employees in these systems will go down as well. Everyone's "losing."

So my personal take is that one can yammer on about trainee numbers, volume, academic culture, PP salaries... it's mostly missing the point. The world is changing, the sea is rising, and only the big ships are going to stay afloat (and buy out the little ships). This is the real issue. Once health care becomes an oligopoly, then it becomes all about having the lowest cost of production. Academic "culture" is going to diminish. What was once private practice will be as an employee within a satellite of the health system (a "portal" for the system). Residency will become a risky proposition, hierarchical, like getting a PhD. It's going to look like grad school in other fields. At the top of the pyramid will those who set the ratios and negotiate the bundles.

So what about the whole supply and demand thing? My assumption is that it's basically predicated on the idea that if there are fewer rads then there will be more jobs and one can negotiate more aggressively for jobs. So let's think about this. Say we slash residency slots by 50%. Half the number of rads are produced in 5 years. This will continue into the future, right? Because you're not so self-centered to think that everyone will slash residency training programs just so that just you can negotiate a great job for a while. Volume may increase or decrease. Reimbursements are unchanged or bundled. "Cost containment" will be the watchwords. Now what? Great, there are now temporarily tons of openings for jobs on the ACR website, but do you want these jobs? You have twice as much work to do per day. Your salary will not rise proportionately (or be very low if you choose low volume and/or are penalized for inefficiency). You're going to turn to residents or midlevels, or something or you're going to go insane. You could try to read a CT per minute... and then be penalized by not meeting quality metrics. Or get sued into oblivion. You're going to game the ratios... and to my mind, if money is exiting the pot at a macro level, and you do not have the choice to work less (i.e. you're an employee), then all the S&D manipulation is just spinning wheels. There's more work, less money, and you have little leverage as an employee. That's it. You can try to evade the health systems in rural areas for as long as you can, but if there's money there, the juggernauts are coming to deliver "high quality care" at lowest cost. If you think that's grim, pay more attention to politics.

So you say, don't slash residency spots. Just don't increase them. Great idea. But how many more is too many more? Volume is usually used to justify residency hires... in that if there's more volume, then there must be room for more workers in the future. It's more complicated than this, which some people don't want to see, but then how do you decide when there are too many? When avg salary declines then there are too many? Not a bad practical definition, but also a hugely impractical metric it's a lagging indicator and since money's exiting the system.

But this is too much thinking. People who complain are mostly complaining pointlessly that it's not PP of 15 years ago. Cry about all the spilled milk you want, it's a brave new world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
crap

Also, I think there's a false dichotomy that is prevalent out there in the rads community: academic vs. private practice.

I think it's a false dichotomy, not because they are somehow similar, but the categories are no longer relevant. The real choice is between health system employee (often a university hospital) and private practice.

I'm cynical, but I don't think private practive can win this one (unfortunately), and the pointless rants that occur about lazy academics and glutting of the system with rads trainees... sure, sure... but private practice is not going to die from that. Private practice is going to die because the government is going to effectively make the playing field so lopsided in favor of massive health systems (mostly through economies of scale... are private practices ready to survive negotiating for bundled payments with large health systems that are looking to expand?). If we decrease the numbers of trainees by 10%, that will not change a thing in the long run since fewer radiologists in a bundled care system -- in which the bundles keep getting discounted lower and lower -- is not going to make them that much more valuable. The supply could go down, and demand could go up... but if the price is not allowed to adjust naturally to S&D (such as in a system where reimbursement is almost arbitrarily set downwards over time) then docs will end up chasing peanut shells around unless they have the leverage of a large health system to keep some of those peanuts in the bundle. This is eventually going to happen, because the government wants it to (e.g. MACRA) and radiology is no exception. As a health system employee, you will have little to no leverage and will basically become an employee like everyone else... that is "academics". PP will eventually become "academics" with less teaching responsibility, and "academics" will not be allowed to take time off from the volume without grant support. Similar to the possible problem with increasing number of U.S. med school grads not automatically getting a residency spot because of a fixed number of residency positions, this is likely going to translate upwards as well and getting a job out of fellowship will not be a given since the health system doesn't care how the work gets done... as long as it gets done cheaply. Like my earlier post, the metrics need to change at a U.S. health system level in order to recognize resident work, otherwise a more expensive department (more rads than residents) will look inefficient and get penalized. The idea that there are lazy academics abusing the poor residents is out of date. The health system margins will decrease over time and the weakest group (the residents) will get hit first and hardest, like any business. The salaries of employees in these systems will go down as well. Everyone's "losing."

So my personal take is that one can yammer on about trainee numbers, volume, academic culture, PP salaries... it's mostly missing the point. The world is changing, the sea is rising, and only the big ships are going to stay afloat (and buy out the little ships). This is the real issue. Once health care becomes an oligopoly, then it becomes all about having the lowest cost of production. Academic "culture" is going to diminish. What was once private practice will be as an employee within a satellite of the health system (a "portal" for the system). Residency will become a risky proposition, hierarchical, like getting a PhD. It's going to look like grad school in other fields. At the top of the pyramid will those who set the ratios and negotiate the bundles.

So what about the whole supply and demand thing? My assumption is that it's basically predicated on the idea that if there are fewer rads then there will be more jobs and one can negotiate more aggressively for jobs. So let's think about this. Say we slash residency slots by 50%. Half the number of rads are produced in 5 years. This will continue into the future, right? Because you're not so self-centered to think that everyone will slash residency training programs just so that just you can negotiate a great job for a while. Volume may increase or decrease. Reimbursements are unchanged or bundled. "Cost containment" will be the watchwords. Now what? Great, there are now temporarily tons of openings for jobs on the ACR website, but do you want these jobs? You have twice as much work to do per day. Your salary will not rise proportionately (or be very low if you choose low volume and/or are penalized for inefficiency). You're going to turn to residents or midlevels, or something or you're going to go insane. You could try to read a CT per minute... and then be penalized by not meeting quality metrics. Or get sued into oblivion. You're going to game the ratios... and to my mind, if money is exiting the pot at a macro level, and you do not have the choice to work less (i.e. you're an employee), then all the S&D manipulation is just spinning wheels. There's more work, less money, and you have little leverage as an employee. That's it. You can try to evade the health systems in rural areas for as long as you can, but if there's money there, the juggernauts are coming to deliver "high quality care" at lowest cost. If you think that's grim, pay more attention to politics.

So you say, don't slash residency spots. Just don't increase them. Great idea. But how many more is too many more? Volume is usually used to justify residency hires... in that if there's more volume, then there must be room for more workers in the future. It's more complicated than this, which some people don't want to see, but then how do you decide when there are too many? When avg salary declines then there are too many? Not a bad practical definition, but also a hugely impractical metric it's a lagging indicator and since money's exiting the system.

But this is too much thinking. People who complain are mostly complaining pointlessly that it's not PP of 15 years ago. Cry about all the spilled milk you want, it's a brave new world.
 
It doesn't really matter whether you agree or disagree. It's pretty clear what large health systems are after. And it's pretty clear what the government and insurers' goals are. It's happening.

Thanks for the insightful comment, though.

I still enjoy rads, though, FWIW. Would definitely choose again. And these health care problems are not unique to rads at all.
 
Last edited:
Private practice isn't going anywhere. Yea the structure may change, and the payments may change, but I think people on forums tend to be blinded by only having been exposed to academics. The fact remains that private practice and self employment is still how the majority of doctors practice in this country
 
Last edited by a moderator:
IMO it's more about how long it will take to get to single payer. 15 years? 20 years? [Requires democrat control of congress and presidency] Once we go single payer, then we all effectively become gov't employees and it is hard to envision PP in it's current state (with hierarchical "partnership tracks") persisting.
 
There's a lot of variability in the day-to-day life, depending on rank and speciality. I imagine there's more variability in schedule than with private practice.

1) I and my colleagues are usually in the reading from about 7:30 - 6:00, but I've worked in institutions where attendings don't show up until 9 and leave around 4:20. It depends on the culture of the department. I can imagine coming in later, but I wouldn't leave before the list was clear.
- Calls vary depending on staffing and specialty. They vary in format quite a bit. At one place the attendings would read 5-11 during the weekdays, then all day Saturday, not Sunday. Some are home call all week and in hospital on the weekend. There are very few that are home call at all times (I don't know of any, but I imagine there must be some)
- Pace of work varies by specialty, staffing (attending and trainee), time of year. It's variable, but the pace has been increasing everywhere

2) Depends on what you were hired for. You can be 95% clinical and 5% teaching. You can be 80% clinical, 10% teaching, and 10% research. Typically, the less clinical you do, the more is expected of you in other ways (i.e. publishing or losing the time). If you want to be less than 80% clinical, you generally need grant support: good luck with that.

3) Job market depends somewhat on specialty. It's generally ok, but the job you're getting is very different than a PP job, so it's not really fair to compare them. You can get a job anywhere, but they may pay you <5% of what you should be making. What is the job market like for "good" academic jobs? Depends on what "good" means to you. High paying? Forget it. Promotion possibilities? Examine the dice. Etc.

4) In academics you collaborate all day long. Whether other people take you seriously or not is up to you.

5) I do a lot of non-IR procedures. I enjoy it. It can be anywhere from 0-4 days per week. As the junior person, it's unlikely you can avoid procedure duty, even if you wanted to.

6) It depends on which department and which residency. There are some residencies where the residents show up at 8:30 - 9:00, do barely any work, disappear mysteriously for hours, and then leave at 5:00 on the dot. In some departments, this is the attendings' schedule. Your attending career is unlikely to be like this; Radiology's a field where you tend to work harder as an attending than as a resident. You will probably feel like you're working as hard as your residents, they are likely to think you're not working at all. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle for both groups.

7) I like this field and I like academics. Would choose again.


Thank you for your detailed reply; this was very helpful!

Can I ask as a follow-up -- what sort of procedures do non-IR radiologists perform? How many of these procedures do you do every day?

Thank you so much! :)
 
IMO it's more about how long it will take to get to single payer. 15 years? 20 years? [Requires democrat control of congress and presidency] Once we go single payer, then we all effectively become gov't employees and it is hard to envision PP in it's current state (with hierarchical "partnership tracks") persisting.
Think we'll all have a better sense of this in the next 4 years or so...in terms of pp versus academics, its highly variable. I trained at a midwest academic center where rads worked their a$$ off and made more $ than some coastal pp that I interviewed at
 
Top