The limitations of choosing DO

[Sesom]

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So I've hear a narrative around here that going DO makes it more difficult for certain specialist. I just pulled up a list of DO around me so I could start calling them and asking if I could shadow. I've noticed that while there are some in family practice it is really all over the place. I see plastic surgeons, dermatologists, gyn, ortho surgeons, psychiatrists etc etc

So, is it really that difficult to specialize away from family doctor, based on what I see I would not think so.

 

[Mad Jack]

It's more difficult than it used to be. The ratio of DOs to AOA specialty positions has plummeted due to the explosion of DO schools. When there were around 10 schools, your percent chance of ending up in an AOA specialty position were much higher. Nowadays, not so much, as AOA positions lagged behind expansion and will soon be swallowed up by the ACGME.

 

[Sesom]

It's more difficult than it used to be. The ratio of DOs to AOA specialty positions has plummeted due to the explosion of DO schools. When there were around 10 schools, your percent chance of ending up in an AOA specialty position were much higher. Nowadays, not so much, as AOA positions lagged behind expansion and will soon be swallowed up by the ACGME.

Is this going to translate as DO students being left out? Or that we are just part of the same pack? Is there any information that suggests they now have a harder time?

 

[Mad Jack]

Is this going to translate as DO students being left out? Or that we are just part of the same pack? Is there any information that suggests they now have a harder time?

Stats are too fragmented to draw a definitive picture. You will have a hard time matching into some specialties though, and will be locked out of many top programs regardless of specialty. That's just reality.

 

[Sesom]

I mean, lots of MD students won't be considered for top programs so I don't exactly see what the best programs have to do with the community as a whole.

 

[Mad Jack]

I mean, lots of MD students won't be considered for top programs so I don't exactly see what the best programs have to do with the community as a whole.

An MD with good scores and letters will make it into the pile. A DO app will go right in the trash, regardless of scores, letters, and research at many programs. Take it from a person who's dealing with the reality of a quarter to a third of the residencies in my home state not accepting DOs, ever.

 

[Gandyy]

An MD with good scores and letters will make it into the pile. A DO app will go right in the trash, regardless of scores, letters, and research at many programs. Take it from a person who's dealing with the reality of a quarter to a third of the residencies in my home state not accepting DOs, ever.

Do you regret going DO with your extremely high stats, or does it not affect you?

 

[Mad Jack]

Do you regret going DO with your extremely high stats, or does it not affect you?

I do not regret my education, but I do long for the doors that were closed. Unfortunately, it could have been done no other way, I simply couldn't wait another year at my age.

 

[Gandyy]

I do not regret my education, but I do long for the doors that were closed. Unfortunately, it could have been done no other way, I simply couldn't wait another year at my age.

If I were to matriculate in a 2016 entering class as a DO, in 2020 how would the merger affect me and my classmates? Or is it too early to tell?

 

[Sesom]

Take it from a person who's dealing with the reality of a quarter to a third of the residencies in my home state not accepting DOs, ever.

Are you having a difficult time finding positions exclusively for DO students at this time?

 

[Mad Jack]

If I were to matriculate in a 2016 entering class as a DO, in 2020 how would the merger affect me and my classmates? Or is it too early to tell?

That's a complicated topic that the search function could tell you more about than I could personally.

Are you having a difficult time finding positions exclusively for DO students at this time?

I don't want a DO exclusive position. I just want any position in my state in my (rather uncompetitive) field of choice. But there's only two options that accept DOs and neither are very good, while the one that accepts only MDs is amongst the best in the world. So I'm stuck with going out of state for decent training or staying in-state for substandard training, two options that suck, care of the letters that come with my degree.

 

[mathnerd88]

That's a complicated topic that the search function could tell you more about than I could personally.

I don't want a DO exclusive position. I just want any position in my state in my (rather uncompetitive) field of choice. But there's only two options that accept DOs and neither are very good, while the one that accepts only MDs is amongst the best in the world. So I'm stuck with going out of state for decent training or staying in-state for substandard training, two options that suck, care of the letters that come with my degree.

Which state are you from? Is it more difficult to find residency out of state?

 

[Goro]

I have met DO cardiologists, radiologists, anesthesiologists, nephrologists, rheumatologists, neurologists, infectious disease specialists, surgeons, and orthopods. You CAN specialize as a DO, but some specialties will be harder to get into than others. Keep in mind that just because you have an MD, it doesn't mean that you can just waltz into a peds onc residency. They're competitive for a reason.

My students self-select for Primary Care, and match nicely into ACGME programs.

So I've hear a narrative around here that going DO makes it more difficult for certain specialist. I just pulled up a list of DO around me so I could start calling them and asking if I could shadow. I've noticed that while there are some in family practice it is really all over the place. I see plastic surgeons, dermatologists, gyn, ortho surgeons, psychiatrists etc etc

So, is it really that difficult to specialize away from family doctor, based on what I see I would not think so.

 

[Mad Jack]

Which state are you from? Is it more difficult to find residency out of state?

I could easily find a decent residency out of state. I would prefer not to do so, because being away from everything I love and care about for four years is less than ideal. I'm a person first and a doctor second. If I were an MD, I would have to make zero compromises. As a DO, compromise is something you will likely have to get used to.

 

[mathnerd88]

I could easily find a decent residency out of state. I would prefer not to do so, because being away from everything I love and care about for four years is less than ideal. I'm a person first and a doctor second. If I were an MD, I would have to make zero compromises. As a DO, compromise is something you will likely have to get used to.

I completely understand. Thanks for your input!

 

[edgerock24]

I could easily find a decent residency out of state. I would prefer not to do so, because being away from everything I love and care about for four years is less than ideal. I'm a person first and a doctor second. If I were an MD, I would have to make zero compromises. As a DO, compromise is something you will likely have to get used to.

What specialty have you decided on?

 

[Mad Jack]

What specialty have you decided on?

That's TMI, my friend.

 

[clockwork7kl]

I could easily find a decent residency out of state. I would prefer not to do so, because being away from everything I love and care about for four years is less than ideal. I'm a person first and a doctor second. If I were an MD, I would have to make zero compromises. As a DO, compromise is something you will likely have to get used to.

Can you elaborate on what compromises you've had to make and which state in particular makes it difficult to find quality training?

 

[Mad Jack]

Can you elaborate on what compromises you've had to make and which state in particular makes it difficult to find quality training?

No. That would be too much information and could hurt my chances of matching if the wrong people read it.

 

[MiaMia14]

Can you elaborate on what compromises you've had to make and which state in particular makes it difficult to find quality training?

There are states that are known to be "DO friendly" and those that aren't. Obviously you can match anywhere but again it's a part of your whole package. I was hoping to match in the northeast which is pretty DO friendly so I was lucky but I made the decision to try and match there after I realized matching in Fort Worth (where my significant other is from, where he works, and where his family is) would be near impossible based on my statistics (if I were an MD the threshold would have been much lower). So the compromise was essentially on his part. He is now having to move away from his family and having to transfer jobs (part of the reason I tried in the northeast was so he could transfer and keep his current job rather than quitting and having to find a new one since his company has a district office slightly north of where I am doing residency). My compromise was that I would rank the program I am going to first so we would have the best chance of all of that working out. I had interviewed at subjectively "better" programs but you do what you have to do. Now, I am very glad to be where I am and very happy that it will work out for my boyfriend but had I been an MD these decisions may not have had to have been made (and may have...you can't know what could have been).

I also made very selective choices about Where I was going to apply. I only applied to programs that had previously taken DOs and ended up spending a lot of money to apply to 75 acgme programs and 25 AOA programs. I ended up getting 7 acgme interviews and 10 AOA interviews out of all those applications. I likely would have had many more interviews if I had been an MD with equivalent numbers. The caveat here is that I didn't take the USMLE so taking and doing well on it can negate some of these things (although you may never be on a completely even playing field at some programs).

I talk about these compromises as something necessary because of being a DO but that's not necessarily true. After you take and get your step 1 score back people often make compromises in their head (possibly without even knowing it) that they won't be able to get into this specialty or that specialty due to their score. They then go on to rotations with this in the back of their head and that influences what specialties they like and so on. Not everyone can be the top of the top derm applicant and in part, knowing your limitations based on being a DO or your stats, or your family, or your geographical preference keeps the specialties balanced with applicants. I was a DO and I matched in my number 1 specialty into my number 1 spot but a lot of thought and compromise goes into making nearly everyone's lists. That's why it's impossible to look at a rank list and determine the caliber of the school.

 

[ortnakas]

If I were to matriculate in a 2016 entering class as a DO, in 2020 how would the merger affect me and my classmates? Or is it too early to tell?

Too early to tell, in my opinion.

Getting into a specialty is a little bit more difficult as a DO, but it's far from impossible. Like Goro (who knows everything) said, there are DOs in every specialty, but DOs also tend to self-select for the primary care residencies.

 

[Seth Joo]

The rapid expansion of DO schools is to blame here, many of my classmates want to specialize, yet its becoming harder to do so as more DO schools open, and the AOA has not stepped up with increased post graduate training for DOs. Its tough for DOs to specialize at ACGME programs in general, sure there are DOs in every specialty, but compared to our MD brethren, its going to become more difficult with so many new schools opening up and training spots not increasing alongside with new schools.

Its not just new schools, some schools are increasing class sizes. My school used to have 125 students per class, and then suddenly doubled the number of students several years ago.

 

[AlteredScale]

The rapid expansion of DO schools is to blame here, many of my classmates want to specialize, yet its becoming harder to do so as more DO schools open, and the AOA has not stepped up with increased post graduate training for DOs. Its tough for DOs to specialize at ACGME programs in general, sure there are DOs in every specialty, but compared to our MD brethren, its going to become more difficult with so many new schools opening up and training spots not increasing alongside with new schools.

Its not just new schools, some schools are increasing class sizes. My school used to have 125 students per class, and then suddenly doubled the number of students several years ago.

Central Mich. University SOM (MD) originally stated they were going to keep their class size to 104.

They're now at 200 students.

 

[Gandyy]

Central Mich. University SOM (MD) originally stated they were going to keep their class size to 104.

They're now at 200 students.

I wonder if there is no Physician shortage but a Physician allocation problem, where on earth are all these doctors going?

 

[AlteredScale]

I wonder if there is no Physician shortage but a Physician allocation problem, where on earth are all these doctors going?

Hmm I'm not sure but it would be interesting to know more about that!

 

[SurgeDO]

the DO degree will not hold you back from a specialty as long as you put in the time and effort.

the DO degree sucks because osteopathic medical schools, COCA, NBOME, and the AOA are run by a bunch of used car salesmen who threw out any bit of self respect and integrity in pursuit of the dollar.

 

[cliquesh]

So I've hear a narrative around here that going DO makes it more difficult for certain specialist. I just pulled up a list of DO around me so I could start calling them and asking if I could shadow. I've noticed that while there are some in family practice it is really all over the place. I see plastic surgeons, dermatologists, gyn, ortho surgeons, psychiatrists etc etc

So, is it really that difficult to specialize away from family doctor, based on what I see I would not think so.

Take a look at http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf and https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2015prgstats.html (the unfilled spots on this chart are pre-soap; most, if not all, were filled post-soap).

There are approximately 5500 graduating DOs this year.

Family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics, ob/gyn, pysch, neurology, PM&R, pathology, radiology, anesthesia, general surgery, ortho surgery (AOA only), and, maybe, ophthalmology are reasonable goals as a DO. The other surgical sub-specialities, like ENT and urology, derm and rad-onc are unlikely.

 

[Goro]

Where the people are! Big cities and suburbs.

I wonder if there is no Physician shortage but a Physician allocation problem, where on earth are all these doctors going?

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Bottom line is, it's harder now for D.O.s and M.D.s to match, harder than ever before. No matter if you go M.D. or D.O., you're going to have to crush boards if you want a competitive specialty, or a residency at a large state academic center.
And about the Rapid expansion of D.O. schools, the allopathic relm is expanding as well, albeit slower but it's happening

 

[Seth Joo]

Bottom line is, it's harder now for D.O.s and M.D.s to match, harder than ever before. No matter if you go M.D. or D.O., you're going to have to crush boards if you want a competitive specialty, or a residency at a large state academic center.
And about the Rapid expansion of D.O. schools, the allopathic relm is expanding as well, albeit slower but it's happening

If you are at a top 25 MD School, you will have nothing to worry about as far as matching into competitive fields. I think at Harvard nearly 80 percent were specializing, and some got into some really hard programs.

The rapid expansion of DO schools and increased number of new MD schools will make it harder for DOs in the future unless residency training positions are increased substantially.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

I'm too tired to write a response. I was just saying, I think it's harder for everyone in general. Whether it's getting worse for D.O.s or M.D.'s with all the expansion, who knows. Back to First Aid

 

[Gandyy]

If you are at a top 25 MD School, you will have nothing to worry about as far as matching into competitive fields. I think at Harvard nearly 80 percent were specializing, and some got into some really hard programs.

The rapid expansion of DO schools and increased number of new MD schools will make it harder for DOs in the future unless residency training positions are increased substantially.

Yea but if you go to a higher tier established DO school, I doubt they view totally new osteopathic schools on the same footing. There is a pretty large difference in getting into CCOM vs any low tier DO school.

 

[22031 Alum]

If you go to a top 25 MD school and screw up your boards, you'll have a problem

I'm usually not a prestige-hound, but this isn't entirely right. Since beginning my academic career I have seen some people screw up their boards (think sub-200) and end up in surprisingly good programs with the help of a good word from a big name. You can actually see the cartoon-like stars in some people's eyes when they see that BWH letterhead.

 

[Seth Joo]

I'm usually not a prestige-hound, but this isn't entirely right. Since beginning my academic career I have seen some people screw up their boards (think sub-200) and end up in surprisingly good programs with the help of a good word from a big name. You can actually see the cartoon-like stars in some people's eyes when they see that BWH letterhead.

This is true, if you do not do well on your boards that MD from Harvard will still open doors. That being Harvard students usually do well on the boards, which would not be surprising since they get the best students in the country.

The more established DO schools tend to have match lists that are probably similar to low ranked MD schools, but even then people from low ranked MD schools will have more opportunity.

 

[DreamerAchiever]

I have met DO cardiologists, radiologists, anesthesiologists, nephrologists, rheumatologists, neurologists, infectious disease specialists, surgeons, and orthopods. You CAN specialize as a DO, but some specialties will be harder to get into than others. Keep in mind that just because you have an MD, it doesn't mean that you can just waltz into a peds onc residency. They're competitive for a reason.

My students self-select for Primary Care, and match nicely into ACGME programs.

Thanks Goro! I'm currently deciding btw an MD and a DO school, right now I have s trong interest in primary care, but I don't want to limit myself. I know the 2 residencies are merging, and if I were to take both USMLE and COMLEX, I would have a greater chance, right? I prefer the DO school to the MD school.

 

[Goro]

Yes.

I know the 2 residencies are merging, and if I were to take both USMLE and COMLEX, I would have a greater chance, right? I prefer the DO school to the MD school.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks Goro! I'm currently deciding btw an MD and a DO school, right now I have s trong interest in primary care, but I don't want to limit myself. I know the 2 residencies are merging, and if I were to take both USMLE and COMLEX, I would have a greater chance, right? I prefer the DO school to the MD school.

I would strongly encourage you to go the MD route. You have no idea how your interests will change, and you'll close a lot of doors, particularly in academics, if you go DO. I used to detest the idea of academics, but now it's kind of grown on me, and it'll be a lot harder for me to fight my way into the biggest academic group in my state- they've only had two DO academic attendings ever, across all specialties.

 

[Seth Joo]

I would strongly encourage you to go the MD route. You have no idea how your interests will change, and you'll close a lot of doors, particularly in academics, if you go DO. I used to detest the idea of academics, but now it's kind of grown on me, and it'll be a lot harder for me to fight my way into the biggest academic group in my state- they've only had two DO academic attendings ever, across all specialties.

I agree, the MD will open more doors than the DO, that being said its not out of reach to specialize or work in academic medicine as a DO, you just have to work harder to prove you are as good or better than your MD competitor.

 

[Bones 2020]

What's life without a little adversity?

 

[SLC]

If you are at a top 25 MD School, you will have nothing to worry about as far as matching into competitive fields. I think at Harvard nearly 80 percent were specializing, and some got into some really hard programs.

The rapid expansion of DO schools and increased number of new MD schools will make it harder for DOs in the future unless residency training positions are increased substantially.

I have a co -resident who SOAP'ed into my program from an Ivy League medical school after he failed to match into a generally medium to low competitive specialty.

It happens to people sometimes.

 

[deleted212936]

I know some residencies do not take DOs... but in general, does going to a DO school limit your chances of matching in top-tier residencies (I don't mean "top-tier" specialty-wise; I mean "top-tier programs")?

I have yet to come across a residency that explicitly states they don't take DOs, does anybody have a list of those?

 

[Seth Joo]

I know some residencies do not take DOs... but in general, does going to a DO school limit your chances of matching in top-tier residencies (I don't mean "top-tier" specialty-wise; I mean "top-tier programs")?

I have yet to come across a residency that explicitly states they don't take DOs, does anybody have a list of those?


Do non-Caribbean US-IMGs match better in such cases?

It all depends, some people think that the DO is the be all better alternative for those who did not make it into LCME MD schools, so naturally some people think they should go to a DO school if they failed to get admission to an American MD school. I only agree when the choice is between a DO school and a Caribbean school(or some other third world country), but if its a DO school and lets say a school in another English speaking first world country, I would probably give the benefit of the doubt to the English speaking first world country. Residency PDs do not frown upon MDs from Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, the way they would frown upon Caribbean graduates or those from third world countries. Some schools in these countries on international lists are ranked higher than the top US Allopathic institutions, so that says a lot.

If you wanted to be really pragmatic(realistic) about the whole issue, if you wanted to just get a residency, it would not matter if its some community hospital or Mass General, I would say going to a DO school would be better than going to a medical school in another English speaking country. The logistics alone would make your life easier.

I do know a personal friend of mine who did not get into any US Allopathic schools when he graduate from school with me, his grades and MCAT scores were stellar, he only applied to the top 10 programs, got in nowhere, and applied to a program in Ireland, and wound up at Harvard for residency. I know for a fact that his program never takes DOs, not a single one, but will consider Western IMG/FMGs.

 

[Gandyy]

It all depends, some people think that the DO is the be all better alternative for those who did not make it into LCME MD schools, so naturally some people think they should go to a DO school if they failed to get admission to an American MD school. I only agree when the choice is between a DO school and a Caribbean school(or some other third world country), but if its a DO school and lets say a school in another English speaking first world country, I would probably give the benefit of the doubt to the English speaking first world country. Residency PDs do not frown upon MDs from Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, the way they would frown upon Caribbean graduates or those from third world countries. Some schools in these countries on international lists are ranked higher than the top US Allopathic institutions, so that says a lot.

If you wanted to be really pragmatic(realistic) about the whole issue, if you wanted to just get a residency, it would not matter if its some community hospital or Mass General, I would say going to a DO school would be better than going to a medical school in another English speaking country. The logistics alone would make your life easier.

I think it also depends on what your situation is. If you were born and raised in the UK and went to a MD school there, but just want to move to the USA to practice medicine, thats a totally different situation than some kid who made a 16 on his MCAT and is escaping to some foreign MD school. (Not that a UK med school will accept someone with a 16 MCAT, but you get my point)

 

[Seth Joo]

I think it also depends on what your situation is. If you were born and raised in the UK and went to a MD school there, but just want to move to the USA to practice medicine, thats a totally different situation than some kid who made a 16 on his MCAT and is escaping to some foreign MD school.

The UK would never take someone who got a 16 on his MCAT, in fact the British schools got high standards, they would want to see his GPA and his MCAT score to see if he could cut in in the UK.

I know the Atlantic Bridge, the program that recruits Americans and Canadians for Ireland, only considers the strongest applicants, and these are people way above the average DO student, many of these students are people for some reason or other despite having excellent credentials could not get into a US MD school. A 30 MCAT is the MINIMUM for an Irish school with successful applicants having much higher scores.

 

[Stagg737]

Take a look at http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf and https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2015prgstats.html (the unfilled spots on this chart are pre-soap; most, if not all, were filled post-soap).

There are approximately 5500 graduating DOs this year.

Family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics, ob/gyn, pysch, neurology, PM&R, pathology, radiology, anesthesia, general surgery, ortho surgery (AOA only), and, maybe, ophthalmology are reasonable goals as a DO. The other surgical sub-specialities, like ENT and urology, derm and rad-onc are unlikely.

Is this still true though? I thought rads was on a pretty significant downslope in terms of competitiveness. I'll also add that school reputation, to a certain extent, DOES matter. Even for those last few fields. My DO school has matched at least 2 people (usually 3) into derm for the past 3-4 years, and at very good programs as well. Not spectacular, but given the number of people that actually wanted to take that route here, I'm guessing that's not too bad.

If you are at a top 25 MD School, you will have nothing to worry about as far as matching into competitive fields. I think at Harvard nearly 80 percent were specializing, and some got into some really hard programs.

The rapid expansion of DO schools and increased number of new MD schools will make it harder for DOs in the future unless residency training positions are increased substantially.

This assumes that IMGs won't be severely affected by the merger. If the merger makes matching from an international institution as difficult as it supposedly will, then it won't affect a DO's ability to match nearly as much as you're saying. Even then, a new MD school will still have to establish itself. So if you're coming from a well-established DO school, you could still be fine (other than at the inherently biased programs that say 'no DOs').

I know some residencies do not take DOs... but in general, does going to a DO school limit your chances of matching in top-tier residencies (I don't mean "top-tier" specialty-wise; I mean "top-tier programs")?

I have yet to come across a residency that explicitly states they don't take DOs, does anybody have a list of those?


Do non-Caribbean US-IMGs match better in such cases?

Depending on the field, yes. There isn't a list, but most of them are in the Northeast/east coast from what I've seen. Non-caribs (for the most part) struggle more than DOs do other than at a few programs that are IMG friendly to those schools.

 

[Gandyy]

The UK would never take someone who got a 16 on his MCAT, in fact the British schools got high standards, they would want to see his GPA and his MCAT score to see if he could cut in in the UK.

I know the Atlantic Bridge, the program that recruits Americans and Canadians for Ireland, only considers the strongest applicants, and these are people way above the average DO student, many of these students are people for some reason or other despite having excellent credentials could not get into a US MD school. A 30 MCAT is the MINIMUM for an Irish school with successful applicants having much higher scores.

I already made the disclaimer about someone not getting into a UK med school with a 16.

also a 30 MCAT minimum does not impress me at all. I made a 29, which is pretty bad apparently, and there are a lot of allopathic schools in the US where a 30 MCAT is pitiful.

 

[Seth Joo]

I already made the disclaimer about someone not getting into a UK med school with a 16.

also a 30 MCAT minimum does not impress me at all. I made a 29, which is pretty bad apparently, and there are a lot of allopathic schools in the US where a 30 MCAT is pitiful.

For your information the typical MCAT at most DO schools is around 26 to 28, there are some DO schools have an average of around 30. Nationally, the average MD school MCAT is around 31.

At my school the average student scored a 28 on the MCAT, so I guess 2/3rds of my school did poorly on the exam, despite that we do better on the boards and on residency placement than any DO school in the Western United States.

 

[cliquesh]

Is this still true though? I thought rads was on a pretty significant downslope in terms of competitiveness. I'll also add that school reputation, to a certain extent, DOES matter. Even for those last few fields. My DO school has matched at least 2 people (usually 3) into derm for the past 3-4 years, and at very good programs as well. Not spectacular, but given the number of people that actually wanted to take that route here, I'm guessing that's not too bad.



This assumes that IMGs won't be severely affected by the merger. If the merger makes matching from an international institution as difficult as it supposedly will, then it won't affect a DO's ability to match nearly as much as you're saying. Even then, a new MD school will still have to establish itself. So if you're coming from a well-established DO school, you could still be fine (other than at the inherently biased programs that say 'no DOs').



Depending on the field, yes. There isn't a list, but most of them are in the Northeast/east coast from what I've seen. Non-caribs (for the most part) struggle more than DOs do other than at a few programs that are IMG friendly to those schools.

I was referring to radiation oncology.

 

[Gandyy]

For your information the typical MCAT at most DO schools is around 26 to 28, there are some DO schools have an average of around 30. Nationally, the average MD school MCAT is around 31.

At my school the average student scored a 28 on the MCAT, so I guess 2/3rds of my school did poorly on the exam, despite that we do better on the boards and on residency placement than any DO school in the Western United States.

I'm not the one saying that scoring in the upper 20's is bad. I'm saying many many other people do think its a poor score especially students and adcoms from MD institutions. Hell many other people I've talked to about my application to MD schools say I need to retake the MCAT and that its a poor score.

I know what the average scores for each are. Trust me, no one knows stats for schools better than borderline MD applicants such as myself. (besides adcoms of course) Its a numbers game, and Im applying so I know the DO average is a 27 and that MD average is a 31. Still, maybe its because I'm desensitized from SDN since it seems like everyone on here has a 47 MCAT. This desensitization has just caused an inner change in my thinking about the test, and I no longer think a 30 is great like I used to.

As to your comment about how "2/3rds of my class did poorly on the exam"... yes those adcoms, advisors and students would in fact say that the majority of your class did poorly on the exam. Of course when you are an adcom used to seeing thousands of applicants who have 31 MCAT scores on average, when you see anything that is below a 30, its going to stand out in a bad way. I'm assuming this is why they think this way.

It would be the same thing if you were a MD adcom from some research focused school and you noticed that an applicant had significantly less research than the other kids. Its just another reason for them to not interview you.

 

[Seth Joo]

I'm not the one saying that scoring in the upper 20's is bad. I'm saying many many other people do think its a poor score especially students and adcoms from MD institutions. Hell many other people I've talked to about my application to MD schools say I need to retake the MCAT and that its a poor score.

I know what the average scores for each are. Trust me, no one knows stats for schools better than borderline MD applicants such as myself. (besides adcoms of course) Its a numbers game, and Im applying so I know the DO average is a 27 and that MD average is a 31. Still, maybe its because I'm desensitized from SDN since it seems like everyone on here has a 47 MCAT. This desensitization has just caused an inner change in my thinking about the test, and I no longer think a 30 is great like I used to.

As to your comment about how "2/3rds of my class did poorly on the exam"... yes those adcoms, advisors and students would in fact say that the majority of your class did poorly on the exam. Of course when you are an adcom used to seeing thousands of applicants who have 31 MCAT scores on average, when you see anything that is below a 30, its going to stand out in a bad way. I'm assuming this is why they think this way.

It would be the same thing if you were a MD adcom from some research focused school and you noticed that an applicant had significantly less research than the other kids. Its just another reason for them to not interview you.

At the end of the day we still become doctors, and I did much better than my class average on the MCAT exam, that being said I have friend who went to a DO school that has a much higher average MCAT than my school yet their students do not do as well as ours on the board examination and subsequently in residency placement. So an exam can only mean so much, because a school needs to provide resources and guidance to its students to help them succeed. There are many schools that unfortunately allow their students to sink or swim, I think my school is not one of those schools.

It doesn't matter if we do not go to a top residency, we still match somewhere, get licensed, get a job, earn a living and become somebody in this world, and that is what matters.