The Magic Number (Interviews)

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Lavenlian

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In the beginning of the interview trail (hope it gets longer). So far, I have 8 interview invites.

As a Caribbean FMG, I am planning on taking all the invitations offered (yes, even programs that may be considered malignant). I am also planning on ranking everything - I don't have the luxury of not ranking a program.

Lately, I have heard many things about interviews in Psychiatry. Things along the lines of "Psychiatry is more selective when it comes to interviewing applicants." (Meaning that an applicant's ERAS application is reviewed with a fine-toothed comb and that if you are granted an interview, you are indeed being strongly considered).

A resident at a program I recently interviewed at mentioned that the number of interviews needed to match in Psychiatry last year was 4.5. I was shocked to hear that it was such a low number. I tried searching online to find where this resident got this information from, but haven't been successful yet.

This begs the question whether or not there is a magic number in Psychiatry - basically, at what number does one have enough interviews in order to safely exhale???

Also, it being about one month into the season - when is it fair to starting calling up programs to check on your application status/possibly solicit an interview??? (I hope this practice isn't too frowned upon).

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In the beginning of the interview trail (hope it gets longer). So far, I have 8 interview invites.

As a Caribbean FMG, I am planning on taking all the invitations offered (yes, even programs that may be considered malignant). I am also planning on ranking everything - I don't have the luxury of not ranking a program.

Lately, I have heard many things about interviews in Psychiatry. Things along the lines of "Psychiatry is more selective when it comes to interviewing applicants." (Meaning that an applicant's ERAS application is reviewed with a fine-toothed comb and that if you are granted an interview, you are indeed being strongly considered).

A resident at a program I recently interviewed at mentioned that the number of interviews needed to match in Psychiatry last year was 4.5. I was shocked to hear that it was such a low number. I tried searching online to find where this resident got this information from, but haven't been successful yet.

This begs the question whether or not there is a magic number in Psychiatry - basically, at what number does one have enough interviews in order to safely exhale???

Also, it being about one month into the season - when is it fair to starting calling up programs to check on your application status/possibly solicit an interview??? (I hope this practice isn't too frowned upon).

Some of the data you may be looking for can be found in the AAMC "Charting Outcomes in the Match" report:

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62400/data/chartingoutcomes.pdf

On page 240, it shows that among U.S. seniors who matched, they ranked an average of 8.5 programs. Among independent applicants who matched, they ranked an average of 5.9 programs.

These are not helpful statistics for many reasons, including:

1. The AAMC report groups all non-U.S. allopathic senior medical students into a single category, "independent applicants". This is a very heterogeneous group that includes graduates of Canadian medical schools, U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, non-U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, people who graduated from a U.S. allopathic school but who took time off, etc.

2. The number of ranked programs is conditioned on the number of interviews attended, which is conditioned on the number of interviews granted, which is conditioned on the number of programs applied to, etc etc.

So the bottom line is, there is no magic number.

With regards to your question about calling, my recommendation would be not to call. Way too early. Don't be annoying.
 
I can't speak on the number of interviews needed to (possibly) Match. but. I did call a program I was really hoping to hear from to ask if my app could be considered if they have others cancel. I was told that my app had already been reviewed and I was labelled 'Do Not Interview" (ouch). this program is more of a super reach for me (so that's fair). the coordinator told me that they've received 800+ applications so far but already have a secondary list of those they'll invite in the case of cancellations. so to me, if you're really interested in a program, I don't think it hurts to call one or two. seems like psych might be a lot more competitive this year :/
 
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it is ONLY a month since applications are submitted. interviews are offered into november and in some cases december and january. it is way too early to hassle programs.

as for the 'magic' number of interviews and programs to rank - you should accept interviews at all programs you would consider going to (but be sensible if you do too many interviews your performance will likely suffer), and rank all programs that you would rather attend than go unmatched. 8 is probably enough, i probably wouldn't go on anymore than 15 assuming they were spaced out over a 3-4 month period. i only ranked 6 programs and i matched. i did not want to rank more programs than this, even though others may have been very happy at said programs i did not rank, i did not see that for me. given that most people get one of their top 3 choices, it should not be surprising you only need a small number to match. obviously the more programs you rank the more likely you are to match but each additional program confers a smaller degree of increasing your chances than the last.
 
Some of the data you may be looking for can be found in the AAMC "Charting Outcomes in the Match" report:

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62400/data/chartingoutcomes.pdf

On page 240, it shows that among U.S. seniors who matched, they ranked an average of 8.5 programs. Among independent applicants who matched, they ranked an average of 5.9 programs.

These are not helpful statistics for many reasons, including:

1. The AAMC report groups all non-U.S. allopathic senior medical students into a single category, "independent applicants". This is a very heterogeneous group that includes graduates of Canadian medical schools, U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, non-U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, people who graduated from a U.S. allopathic school but who took time off, etc.

2. The number of ranked programs is conditioned on the number of interviews attended, which is conditioned on the number of interviews granted, which is conditioned on the number of programs applied to, etc etc.

So the bottom line is, there is no magic number.

With regards to your question about calling, my recommendation would be not to call. Way too early. Don't be annoying.
I would agree that this is probably the best place for information. I find graph P-1 (p 242) on contiguous ranks and P-2 (p 245) on Step 1 scores to be the most informative when I counsel medical students.

For AMGs what it shows is that pretty much everybody gets a slot and I would hazard a guess that for the vast majority of applicants, who do not have any flags in their application, they will likely get one of their top three choices. It is likely that the applicants with some issue (failed a course, took a leave of absence, poor interpersonal skills, etc) are the ones who end up going further down on their list than that.

Other comments:

1) Don't forget that there is a bias in the programs that people apply to. If all applicants applied to all programs, and ranked them the same, then the curves might look drastically different. However, there is likely some self selection that is going on.

2) What I use the graphs to drive home to my students is that they should be less focused on getting a slot and instead trying to find the correct program for themselves. Yes, they can get one of their top three choices, but they need to figure out what their top three choices need to be. To do that they need to read about the programs and visit them.

3) The curves/information about independent applicants is less useful as pointed out because it includes so many different types of people.

4) The curves/information about the independent applications is likely not reflective of reality because a large number of these applicants end up taking out-of-Match positions and therefore are not in this data set. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Independent Applicant curves at the close of this season given that programs if they are in the Match can no longer give out-of-Match slots out before the Match is over.
 
I know that you have to take the data with a grain of salt, but I've generally been considering 13 as the "magic number" for interviews. The Charting Outcomes document shows that, among independent applicants, 100% of people with 13-15 interviews ended up matching somewhere. That's probably distorted by the fact that people with more interviews are probably better applicants, but I've just been thinking about "13" because it makes me feel more comfortable to have a specific number.
 
I know that you have to take the data with a grain of salt, but I've generally been considering 13 as the "magic number" for interviews. The Charting Outcomes document shows that, among independent applicants, 100% of people with 13-15 interviews ended up matching somewhere. That's probably distorted by the fact that people with more interviews are probably better applicants, but I've just been thinking about "13" because it makes me feel more comfortable to have a specific number.

Yeah I get the feeling that with 10 interviews, some bad hair days could preclude you from matching, whereas with 13, I feel you'd need something hanging out of your pants not to match.
 
Yeah I get the feeling that with 10 interviews, some bad hair days could preclude you from matching, whereas with 13, I feel you'd need something hanging out of your pants not to match.

:laugh: The thought of interviewing with your junk out is a punctured relief in the tension of these types of analyses.
 
I would definitely begin calling programs. Certain programs only offer interviews to those that call and express interest - not mine. I know my med school program did that though.


Yeah that actually worked well for me last year. I emailed a couple of reach programs, and to my surprise, they got back to me within a couple weeks (as spots open up) to offer an interview.
 
Yeah that actually worked well for me last year. I emailed a couple of reach programs, and to my surprise, they got back to me within a couple weeks (as spots open up) to offer an interview.

This is really a 180 from what we've been hearing up until this point.
 
This is really a 180 from what we've been hearing up until this point.

What have you been hearing? I'm not sure if what happened to me last year was typical but that was my experience. You can PM me for details.
 
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What have you been hearing? I'm not sure if what happened to me last year was typical but that was my experience. You can PM me for details.

We've been told how busy PDs and PCs are and to not contact, assuring that they'll get to us. Just demonstrates the lack of one-size-fits-all regarding how programs run things and how each program has its own unique set of expectations.
 
We've been told how busy PDs and PCs are and to not contact, assuring that they'll get to us. Just demonstrates the lack of one-size-fits-all regarding how programs run things and how each program has its own unique set of expectations.

My mentality last year was that, being a caribbean IMG, I didn't have much to lose when trying for these reach programs. The worst programs could say was no, or ignore my email. To me it was worth the risk of possibly annoying the programs in order to get an invitation. But you're right, a lot depends on the program itself, the strength of the applicant, etc
 
:laugh: The thought of interviewing with your junk out is a punctured relief in the tension of these types of analyses.

Well not so bad, but I did interview at one program with the PD with my flies wide open the whole time. I didn't realize until the end, but it was so obvious I really thought that was it! I also fell asleep in another interview at this program. Bizarrely i guess they still ranked me highly as they sent various emails before and after the match!
 
Well not so bad, but I did interview at one program with the PD with my flies wide open the whole time. I didn't realize until the end, but it was so obvious I really thought that was it! I also fell asleep in another interview at this program. Bizarrely i guess they still ranked me highly as they sent various emails before and after the match!

Yeah certain people can pull these things off and are still very likable. I've noticed this with people who are funny by their very nature. People give you the pass because they like it that some guy feel asleep. They wanted to nap as well.
 
Is it better to email or call programs if you wanted to get a status update on your application?
 
Is it better to email or call programs if you wanted to get a status update on your application?
What is unclear about your status?

Once you've sent off your application, if they've invited you for an interview, they want to interview you. If they haven't, they have not yet decided that they want to grant you one of their interview slots. Once you've been invited to interview, there will be no status change until after your interview, at which point they will not decide until their ROL is finalized, which will be announced on Match Day.

If you really get the hankering, you can send off a short letter to the PD well after the interview stating that you've interviewed widely and this particular program feels like the best fit for reasons a, b, and c. But that's about it.

My guess is that you're in the limbo between sending off the application and getting the interview invite. It sucks, but we all go through it. Calling programs won't change anything. I don't know anyone who made that call and heard either, "You know, what the hell? C'mon in next Tuesday" or "Sorry, we're just not that into you. You won't be getting an invite." Unless you have a truly monumental update, pestering the programs will be met by patient sympathy at best.
 
What is unclear about your status?

Once you've sent off your application, if they've invited you for an interview, they want to interview you. If they haven't, they have not yet decided that they want to grant you one of their interview slots. Once you've been invited to interview, there will be no status change until after your interview, at which point they will not decide until their ROL is finalized, which will be announced on Match Day.

If you really get the hankering, you can send off a short letter to the PD well after the interview stating that you've interviewed widely and this particular program feels like the best fit for reasons a, b, and c. But that's about it.

My guess is that you're in the limbo between sending off the application and getting the interview invite. It sucks, but we all go through it. Calling programs won't change anything. I don't know anyone who made that call and heard either, "You know, what the hell? C'mon in next Tuesday" or "Sorry, we're just not that into you. You won't be getting an invite." Unless you have a truly monumental update, pestering the programs will be met by patient sympathy at best.
Well, I've heard from one of the Deans at my school that sometimes you can contact the program and just inquire about the status of your application, and that sometimes programs think that it shows that you're interested in their program, and occasionally you might hear from them in regards to an interview date. Even people in this thread have said the same thing. Honestly, the worst they could tell you is "no, we're not going to extend an invitation". I feel, for the most part, people don't call every single program that they haven't heard from, I'd only contact a couple of places that I am reeeeeeeeally interested in. If they decide not to interview me simply because I was showing a little interest in them, then maybe that isn't the program for me anyway.
 
Sorry to threadjack, but I actually have a similar question. My Step 2CS score comes out in early December... I think that might be the reason why I haven't received invitations from several particular programs (I'm an IMG, so I think I'm getting filtered out by a lot of programs who only look at people that are "ECFMG Verified", which requires a pass on 2CS).

Do you guys think it would be worth calling up those programs to see if they'll consider giving me an interview when the score becomes available?
 
Well, I've heard from one of the Deans at my school that sometimes you can contact the program and just inquire about the status of your application, and that sometimes programs think that it shows that you're interested in their program, and occasionally you might hear from them in regards to an interview date.
Meh, I can't see it doing any real harm, but I think this idea is more of a pacifier to applicants than an actual strategy.

You're not inquiring about status, really: you know your status if you're familiar with the application process. And you're not really indicating interest in a program: they know you're interested by the fact you applied. What you're essentially doing is saying PLEEEEAAASE? Probably can't hurt, but I can't imagine it swaying anybody. But if it makes you feel like you're doing something, go for it.
 
Meh, I can't see it doing any real harm, but I think this idea is more of a pacifier to applicants than an actual strategy.

You're not inquiring about status, really: you know your status if you're familiar with the application process. And you're not really indicating interest in a program: they know you're interested by the fact you applied. What you're essentially doing is saying PLEEEEAAASE? Probably can't hurt, but I can't imagine it swaying anybody. But if it makes you feel like you're doing something, go for it.

If you haven't heard from us, and you really want to be in our program, then by all means drop an email. We're not going to be that annoyed--and we might have missed you in the first pass through the 800+ applications. But it won't guarantee you any changes--if you're a marginal candidate with no discernible ties to our area, you'll still be a marginal candidate...
I will say that if you're in the couples match and you want to let us know that your partner has an interview with other local programs and you're both interested in living in our geographic area, that is definitely a time that you should be contacting us.
 
When we refer to contacting "programs" do we mean the PD, the PC, both?
 
If you haven't heard from us, and you really want to be in our program, then by all means drop an email. We're not going to be that annoyed--and we might have missed you in the first pass through the 800+ applications. But it won't guarantee you any changes--if you're a marginal candidate with no discernible ties to our area, you'll still be a marginal candidate...
I will say that if you're in the couples match and you want to let us know that your partner has an interview with other local programs and you're both interested in living in our geographic area, that is definitely a time that you should be contacting us.

Should we direct these e-mails to the PD or the PC? I want to e-mail my top choice programs in my preferred area because I have not heard from most of them. Even though my numbers are decent, I don't really have any psych electives or research under my belt to show interest. I am worried that programs might think, I am using psych as a backup.
 
Meh, I can't see it doing any real harm, but I think this idea is more of a pacifier to applicants than an actual strategy.

You're not inquiring about status, really: you know your status if you're familiar with the application process. And you're not really indicating interest in a program: they know you're interested by the fact you applied. What you're essentially doing is saying PLEEEEAAASE? Probably can't hurt, but I can't imagine it swaying anybody. But if it makes you feel like you're doing something, go for it.

:thumbup:
 
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