The MCAT is important...but is NOT everything

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treatem-and-streetem

MD Class of 2022
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SDN has a sickness where people think they need to score a 515+ or they have no shot at med school. PEOPLE...the MCAT is important but schools want a complete and well rounded application. Stop asking SDN if you should retake that 511!

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It’s definitely not everything and I think a lot of applicants need to realize that. Many factors come into play when an applicant is being assessed throughout the cycle. I was accepted into an MD school with an unbalanced score which happened to be under the averages of most MD and DO programs.
 
I think SDN has a sickness where people think that getting into medical school is everything. Seems like so many people here make everything in their lives revolve around getting into medical school. It makes me sad.
Indeed. For some, it's all about getting into med school, and NOT about being a doctor.
 
SDN has a sickness where people think they need to score a 515+ or they have no shot at med school. PEOPLE...the MCAT is important but schools want a complete and well rounded application. Stop asking SDN if you should retake that 511!
With how competitive the process is, I totally understand the paranoia. Especially considering how much students have invested by the time their MCAT comes around. Assuming someone already has that “complete and well-rounded application,” the MCAT could be the last piece of the puzzle for them. And depending on the school they aspire to go to, a 515+ just might be the key.

A 511 re-take could be in order for a very unbalanced score.
 
Can confirm. Had an unbalanced 510 and got 2 acceptances so far. A lot more to this process than just the MCAT score
 
MCAT/GPA are the most important things in your application. For some reason weaker applicants like to buy into the fallacy that they can make up for bad numbers with a bunch of subjective assessments (LORs, ECs, etc). This does not seem to be the way it works. If an applicants numbers are low enough, there is no amount of "well-roundedness" that is going to make up for that.
 
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MCAT/GPA are the most important things in your application. For some reason weaker applicants like to buy into the fallacy that they can make up for bad numbers with a bunch of subjective assessments (LORs, ECs, etc). This does not seem to be the way it works. If an applicants numbers are low enough, there is no amount of "well-roundedness" that is going to make up for that.

This is true, but not complete. They on their own are the most important single factor components of an application, but after a certain threshold they stop being so heavily weighted.

Some people are beyond salvage — many bad semesters in a row, or many attempts at MCAT without significant improvement are showing that they can’t adequately improve, adapt, or learn from mistakes.

However, as I’m sure adcoms here can attest to, someone with okay-not-great numbers with a compelling story, background, or experience can easily be accepted and succeed.
 
MCAT/GPA are the most important things in your application. For some reason weaker applicants like to buy into the fallacy that they can make up for bad numbers with a bunch of subjective assessments (LORs, ECs, etc). This does not seem to be the way it works. If an applicants numbers are low enough, there is no amount of "well-roundedness" that is going to make up for that.
I had an average MCAT and pretty good gpa and I did just fine. There is no fallacy to my three years clinical experience,great LORs, and a well written application that got me in. The MCAT is after all just a very hard test to weed out those who are serious or not
 
I had an average MCAT and pretty good gpa and I did just fine. There is no fallacy to my three years clinical experience,great LORs, and a well written application that got me in. The MCAT is after all just a very hard test to weed out those who are serious or not

I am willing to bet that if you truly got an average MCAT score you only gained admission into an osteopathic or offshore school. Regardless of your GPA, applicants with average MCAT scores are facing a roughly 20% chance of acceptance into any MD school.
 
below some data on percentages with less than stellar numbers

1) From aggregate data from 2013-2015, I found roughly:

About 2500 applicants who have both MCAT 29 (about 506) and below and 3.6 and below get accepted each year.
Overall about 6000-7000 applicants a year get accepted with MCAT 29 or less
Overall about 2500-3000 applicants a year with 3.4 or less get accepted
Overall about 8000 applicants with either a 29 (506) or less MCAT or 3.6 GPA or less get accepted each year or about 40% of the total acceptees

2) From 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 data with Mean MCATs 508.7 and 510.4 respectively:

View attachment 229077
View attachment 229076


3) From 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 data (aggregated) where just under half of those with MCAT 506-509, just over of third with 502-505, and just under a quarter of those 498-501 gained acceptance.

View attachment 229080
View attachment 229078


So what is average on the new MCAT? About 500? So according to that chart you posted you have a 22% chance of acceptance (no matter how "well-rounded" you think your application is) if you have between a 498 and a 501 MCAT score. Looks like pretty crappy chances to me.

Going back to the OP, it shouldn't be a surprise that one would want to retake a 510 considering that now a days that only gives you slightly greater than a 50-50 chance of gaining even one acceptance.
 
I am willing to bet that if you truly got an average MCAT score you only gained admission into an osteopathic or offshore school. Regardless of your GPA, applicants with average MCAT scores are facing a roughly 20% chance of acceptance into any MD school.
Ill let my school know they made a mistake and that I should go to an offshore school
 
So what is average on the new MCAT? About 500? So according to that chart you posted you have a 22% chance of acceptance (no matter how "well-rounded" you think your application is) if you have between a 498 and a 501 MCAT score. Looks like pretty crappy chances to me.

Going back to the OP, it shouldn't be a surprise that one would want to retake a 510 considering that now a days that only gives you slightly greater than a 50-50 chance of gaining even one acceptance.
Perhaps the 50/50 shot with a 510 has to do more with a well written application and interview skills rather than purely an MCAT issue
 
So what is average on the new MCAT? About 500? So according to that chart you posted you have a 22% chance of acceptance (no matter how "well-rounded" you think your application is) if you have between a 498 and a 501 MCAT score. Looks like pretty crappy chances to me.

Going back to the OP, it shouldn't be a surprise that one would want to retake a 510 considering that now a days that only gives you slightly greater than a 50-50 chance of gaining even one acceptance.

The reason for this is that MCAT/GPA will get you to the door, but interview etc. gets you through the door.

That way, if someone with an attitude as poor as yours scores 515/3.8, the rest of the factors ensure that they never end up anywhere near real patients.
 
The reason for this is that MCAT/GPA will get you to the door, but interview etc. gets you through the door.

That way, if someone with an attitude as poor as yours scores 515/3.8, the rest of the factors ensure that they never end up anywhere near real patients.

I’m just wondering how terrible of a personality do you have to have to get rejected with those stats?
 
This is true, but not complete. They on their own are the most important single factor components of an application, but after a certain threshold they stop being so heavily weighted.

Some people are beyond salvage — many bad semesters in a row, or many attempts at MCAT without significant improvement are showing that they can’t adequately improve, adapt, or learn from mistakes.

However, as I’m sure adcoms here can attest to, someone with okay-not-great numbers with a compelling story, background, or experience can easily be accepted and succeed.
Very true. There's a reason why people get accepted even though their stats are below the 10th percentile of school medians.
 
I’m just wondering how terrible of a personality do you have to have to get rejected with those stats?
4.0 automatins are a dime a dozen. People in this range who get rejected tend to display very little emotion, are too much of the hyper achiever, have terrible essays that might be filled with entitlement, or have very few extracurriculars other than research.
 
I’m just wondering how terrible of a personality do you have to have to get rejected with those stats?

Probably an "entitlement" mentality. People that are not humble and are just arrogant fools. Being a doctor is about more than getting an MD. It's about being a good HUMAN BEING, because after all, you are treating human patients
 
I’m just wondering how terrible of a personality do you have to have to get rejected with those stats?
I think it is more than the personality... I get lots of thank you cards and positive comments from patients and family members complimenting me on being approachable and friendly - and most of the people I've been a secondary preceptor for ask for me specifically to be named as their primary mentor when they get out of orientation, over their primary preceptors - so my personality can't be that terrible.

515/3.85 post bacc (3.55 cumulative), for the record, with zero MD accepts. >10,000 hours paid clinical experience, no community service or research on app... I think the lack of research killed me at the higher stat schools and the lack of community service killed me at the lower stat, service-focused schools, but that's just a guess.
 
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Indeed. For some, it's all about getting into med school, and NOT about being a doctor.

I agree, especially with people who just focus only on GPA/MCAT, but ironically, medical schools seem to care most about people who just want to get into medical school.

Having a friend get accepted to Harvard med. with no clinical employment or volunteering but a 4.0/40 MCAT shows that medical schools are choosing applicants for medical school, not to be a physician.

Don't get me wrong, I know that medical schools love clinical experience, etc. ....but when they are choosing people with high metrics and no clinical experience, then med. schools are partly to blame for accepting people who don't really care about the actual job of being a physician.
 
I think it is more than the personality... I get lots of thank you cards and positive comments from patients and family members complimenting me on being approachable and friendly - and most of the people I've been a secondary preceptor for ask for me specifically to be named as their primary mentor when they get out of orientation, over their primary preceptors - so my personality can't be that terrible.

515/3.85 post bacc (3.55 cumulative), for the record, with zero MD accepts. >10,000 hours paid clinical experience, no community service or research on app... I think the lack of research killed me at the higher stat schools and the lack of community service killed me at the lower stat, service-focused schools, but that's just a guess.

Everything holds some weight on your application. Always try to improve and apply early! I had an extensive list of extracurriculars when I applied and ended up getting in with a 3.95/502. MCAT matters but it’s not everything. I hope you find your way in 🙂


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@efle once said something to the effect that SDN (the amorphous hive mind which together generates the “culture” and various “trends” of thought on the site, not individuals per se or even the majority of users) is concerned about getting into a top X medical school, not just medical school in general. It’s known that brand-name UGs are overrepresented on SDN compared to the premed pop in general, as well as ppl with very high test scores and GPAs. As a result, a lot of people never seriously doubted that they could get into medical school. These same people also tend to be more vocal on the site about their own accomplishments, for obvious reasons. All of this coupled to the neuroticism of the UG years lends to an environment where it’s easy to feel that the broad user base is disconnected for reality, where, as you can see, most people don’t *literally* think numbers are everything.

I for one think of this as a numbers driven process, but not a process that is wholly dependent solely on numbers.

The way I like to think of the top school/“choosing ppl for med school rather than clinical practice” thing is that some schools want to educate “Doctors Plus” as in Doctors plus something else (I think I’ve heard this exact phrasing used by a Dell Med adcom, and heard it repeated again by a friend at Stanford med). What that something else might be and how well you can show that A) you are capable of achieving it, B) it makes sense to combine with medicine, and C) your ambitions fit with the school’s goals is an open question. Everyone I know who is at a “top institution” fits this mold pretty clearly, at least on paper; in reality, they might just be yet another LA suburb bound dermatologist in training. The less you fit this mold — that is, practically everyone since almost nobody who pursues an MD is seriously considering much beyond lifestyle and interest in a field — the stronger your stats probably have to be to get anyone’s attention. This is all speculation on my part from what I’ve seen, I’ve no way of proving this.

I think it’s sillly for adcoms to complain about this mentality in their applicants, though. They are the ones that created this game, were just playing it. I know too many people who would’ve made far better physicians than me who won’t get to go to medical school because their grades and/or test scores couldn’t impress (even though they would’ve been far beyond the numbers predicted to actually succeed in medical school and pass licensing exams).
 
I agree, especially with people who just focus only on GPA/MCAT, but ironically, medical schools seem to care most about people who just want to get into medical school.

Having a friend get accepted to Harvard med. with no clinical employment or volunteering but a 4.0/40 MCAT shows that medical schools are choosing applicants for medical school, not to be a physician.

Don't get me wrong, I know that medical schools love clinical experience, etc. ....but when they are choosing people with high metrics and no clinical experience, then med. schools are partly to blame for accepting people who don't really care about the actual job of being a physician.
I so love anecdotes. ..they drive the world, don't they?

We're you privy to your friend's application and his/ EC history?
 
@efle once said something to the effect that SDN (the amorphous hive mind which together generates the “culture” and various “trends” of thought on the site, not individuals per se or even the majority of users) is concerned about getting into a top X medical school, not just medical school in general. It’s known that brand-name UGs are overrepresented on SDN compared to the premed pop in general, as well as ppl with very high test scores and GPAs. As a result, a lot of people never seriously doubted that they could get into medical school. These same people also tend to be more vocal on the site about their own accomplishments, for obvious reasons. All of this coupled to the neuroticism of the UG years lends to an environment where it’s easy to feel that the broad user base is disconnected for reality, where, as you can see, most people don’t *literally* think numbers are everything.

I for one think of this as a numbers driven process, but not a process that is wholly dependent solely on numbers.

The way I like to think of the top school/“choosing ppl for med school rather than clinical practice” thing is that some schools want to educate “Doctors Plus” as in Doctors plus something else (I think I’ve heard this exact phrasing used by a Dell Med adcom, and heard it repeated again by a friend at Stanford med). What that something else might be and how well you can show that A) you are capable of achieving it, B) it makes sense to combine with medicine, and C) your ambitions fit with the school’s goals is an open question. Everyone I know who is at a “top institution” fits this mold pretty clearly, at least on paper; in reality, they might just be yet another LA suburb bound dermatologist in training. The less you fit this mold — that is, practically everyone since almost nobody who pursues an MD is seriously considering much beyond lifestyle and interest in a field — the stronger your stats probably have to be to get anyone’s attention. This is all speculation on my part from what I’ve seen, I’ve no way of proving this.

I think it’s sillly for adcoms to complain about this mentality in their applicants, though. They are the ones that created this game, were just playing it. I know too many people who would’ve made far better physicians than me who won’t get to go to medical school because their grades and/or test scores couldn’t impress (even though they would’ve been far beyond the numbers predicted to actually succeed in medical school and pass licensing exams).


This is so true!
 
I so love anecdotes. ..they drive the world, don't they?

We're you privy to your friend's application and his/ EC history?

I'm saying both the appicants and the medical schools are contributing to the "want applicants that would make good students, not good physicians" crisis.

Simple question. If two students are waitlisted post-interview and these are the updates:

1.) applicant 1: goes from 504 MCAT to 510 MCAT
2.) applicant 2: adds 500 hours of clinical experience

Which update do the ADCOMs choose as most influential in their decision? If its the MCAT update (and it would be), then congrats, medical schools are also guilty of choosing students and not physicians.
 
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I'm saying both the appicants and the medical schools are contributing to the "want applicants that would make good students, not good physicians" crisis.

Simple question. If two students are waitlisted post-interview and these are the updates:

1.) applicant 1: goes from 504 MCAT to 510 MCAT
2.) applicant 2: adds 500 hours of clinical experience

Which update do the ADCOMs choose as most influential in their decision? If its the MCAT update (and it would be), then congrats, medical schools are also guilty of choosing students and not physicians.

I mean it makes sense. Someone could be a compassionate person, volunteer for a million hours etc. but if they can’t do well in college, or the prerequisites and can’t do well on the MCAT, so they belong in med school? It’s a combination of both. It’s not just about GPA and MCAT, but without those two, you ain’t going nowhere. If you still wanna be a good person then you can volunteer or look at other altruistic jobs. But being a doctor is More than getting a high gpa and MCAT but you still NEED the high GPA and MCAT
 
I mean it makes sense. Someone could be a compassionate person, volunteer for a million hours etc. but if they can’t do well in college, or the prerequisites and can’t do well on the MCAT, so they belong in med school? It’s a combination of both. It’s not just about GPA and MCAT, but without those two, you ain’t going nowhere. If you still wanna be a good person then you can volunteer or look at other altruistic jobs. But being a doctor is More than getting a high gpa and MCAT but you still NEED the high GPA and MCAT

I used the post-interview scenario for a reason. The medical school already thinks both applicants could potentially be a decent physician.
 
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I used the post-interview scenario for a reason. The medical school already thinks both applicants could make a great physician.

I don’t think it’s necesarily wrong to choose the higher MCAT student. It shows that person can be humbled, Study differently and improve on exams as opposed to, potentially sitting around a hospital and not doing anything, guess it matters what KIND of clinical experience
 
After having gone through the application cycle I can say with honesty that you need an "acceptable" MCAT score to not have the door be ABSOLUTELY slammed. MCAT has two components one is knowledge and the other is stamina. You will have to take the boards and so you need to have the testing ability. Plain and simple and so MCAT is a kind of right of passage to medical school.

What that "acceptable" score is exactly I'm not sure but I would say if you're in the 75% percentile (in reality it is lower than that) you won't be screened out of 90% of schools maybe even 95%. If I was on the admissions committee I would take someone who is socially adjusted with a 75% percentile vs a person who is in the 99% percentile but has a lot of personal growing to do.

As someone who has actually worked outside of school I can tell you that a person you can get along with ALWAYS wins over someone who is "brilliant" but is awkward. The reason being is that they have both cleared the academic criteria so you simply want good people surrounding you.

After "statistics" I really believe it is the self-presentation. That includes your personal statement/activities and once you've cleared those hurdles it is how adjusted and mature you are during an interview.

I think there is too much stress on academics, which are important to a degree, and not enough stress on personal presentation.
 
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I'm saying both the appicants and the medical schools are contributing to the "want applicants that would make good students, not good physicians" crisis.

Simple question. If two students are waitlisted post-interview and these are the updates:

1.) applicant 1: goes from 504 MCAT to 510 MCAT
2.) applicant 2: adds 500 hours of clinical experience

Which update do the ADCOMs choose as most influential in their decision? If its the MCAT update (and it would be), then congrats, medical schools are also guilty of choosing students and not physicians.
This will depend entirely upon who is doing the picking off of the wait list. At my school, the Dean will go for the first applicant. I can't tell you other schools will choose. But the service loving schools like SLU or Tulane might very well go for the second.

Keep in mind that it's a seller's market, and schools can simply ignore tons of people who will make good doctors simply because they have tons of people who will make good doctors AND have good stats as applicants

Stats get you to the door, ECs get you through.

But you have lost sight of the OP. The MCAT isn't unimportant...but it's NOT the only thing. Yet too many SDNers think that it IS the only thing. That's on them, not us.
 
I'm saying both the appicants and the medical schools are contributing to the "want applicants that would make good students, not good physicians" crisis.

Simple question. If two students are waitlisted post-interview and these are the updates:

1.) applicant 1: goes from 504 MCAT to 510 MCAT
2.) applicant 2: adds 500 hours of clinical experience

Which update do the ADCOMs choose as most influential in their decision? If its the MCAT update (and it would be), then congrats, medical schools are also guilty of choosing students and not physicians.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. I think achieving 500 clinical hours is easier than improving an MCAT score. You can simply go through the motions of having clinical hours. Improving MCAT score is an active activity.

Simply having more clinical experience has no substance necessarily. The person could have gone through it with their eyes closed and it doesn't say anything about their character. Don't get me wrong 500 hours is a lot of dedication but is it meaningful.

If it was followed up with another stellar letter of recommendation and a reflective personal letter that would be something to consider. For example, if the letter of recommendation said "This person was able to grasp complex concepts in radiology more quickly than some of my residents, was consistently the first one in and the last one out, and showed tremendous maturity when interacting with patients" that would be more of a fair comparison with someone who improved their MCAT score.
 
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This will depend entirely upon who is doing the picking off of the wait list. At my school, the Dean will go for the first applicant. I can't tell you other schools will choose. But the service loving schools like SLU or Tulane might very well go for the second.

Keep in mind that it's a seller's market, and schools can simply ignore tons of people who will make good doctors simply because they have tons of people who will make good doctors AND have good stats as applicants

Stats get you to the door, ECs get you through.

But you have lost sight of the OP. The MCAT isn't unimportant...but it's NOT the only thing. Yet too many SDNers think that it IS the only thing. That's on them, not us.

I don't disagree with anything in this post (although I'm very skeptical any school--even community service orietned, are going to accept the second applicant over the first).

I still think its more accurate to say "stats and EC's hurt/help you get the interview, and stats and EC's also hurt/help you at the interview for final decision".

My only disagreement was that medical schools can't blame only students for wanting to be a professional student, and not a physician. With the decisions made my medical schools on who to interview and accept, they are just following suit.

If medical schools took the PA school approach, you would have people who have excellent experience in health care and are very sure of their medical careers. That's because PA school require hundreds, or even thousands of hours of direct patient care.
 
The analogy I’ll make is with driving.

You need to get an acceptable score to get your permit to get closer to having a drivers license, but what gets you that license is not your permit score, it is all those intangible attributes that make you a good driver.

Same in med school. Your stats need to be acceptable to get you through the door, but whether you should be admitted or whether you would make a good physician is that intangible part.

At least that’s how I view it.
 
The analogy I’ll make is with driving.

You need to get an acceptable score to get your permit to get closer to having a drivers license, but what gets you that license is not your permit score, it is all those intangible attributes that make you a good driver.

Same in med school. Your stats need to be acceptable to get you through the door, but whether you should be admitted or whether you would make a good physician is that intangible part.

At least that’s how I view it.

Very good analogy.
 
below some data on percentages with less than stellar numbers

1) From aggregate data from 2013-2015, I found roughly:

About 2500 applicants who have both MCAT 29 (about 506) and below and 3.6 and below get accepted each year.
Overall about 6000-7000 applicants a year get accepted with MCAT 29 or less
Overall about 2500-3000 applicants a year with 3.4 or less get accepted
Overall about 8000 applicants with either a 29 (506) or less MCAT or 3.6 GPA or less get accepted each year or about 40% of the total acceptees

2) From 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 data with Mean MCATs 508.7 and 510.4 respectively:

View attachment 229077
View attachment 229076


3) From 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 data (aggregated) where just under half of those with MCAT 506-509, just over of third with 502-505, and just under a quarter of those 498-501 gained acceptance.

View attachment 229080
View attachment 229078
I want to meet the 8 applicants that had less than a 486 and actually got into medical school.
 
Agreed. Plenty of fine docs train in the Caribbean, some with MCAT scores as low as 510!

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tenor.gif
 
Got an MD acceptance with a 504 and a sGPA under 3.0. Yet something about my app made the committee think I could be successful at this; I’m guessing it was the ECs and personal statement because it certainly was not my stats. MCAT is not everything.
 
Got an MD acceptance with a 504 and a sGPA under 3.0. Yet something about my app made the committee think I could be successful at this; I’m guessing it was the ECs and personal statement because it certainly was not my stats. MCAT is not everything.

I read up on your post history — congratulations! I am so happy to see someone coming from such a tough situation get the acceptance they deserve!
 
I read up on your post history — congratulations! I am so happy to see someone coming from such a tough situation get the acceptance they deserve!

Oh god, that’s so kind of you - THANK YOU!! It’s been a long journey, and I’ve lived a lot of life; here’s to hoping I’m a better physician for it.

I’m just so damned grateful that everything worked out for me, I know it doesn’t for a lot of people.

Thanks again 🙂
 
It's not an MD acceptance, but a local DO school accepted an applicant with a 484 MCAT. I guess you are right that the MCAT isn't the be-all and end-all.
 
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