The MCAT vs GPA argument from an ADCOM perspective...

[BestDoctorEver]

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I had the chance to meet an ADCOM member while touring a DO school last week... I basically confronted him about his school putting so much emphasis on MCAT rather than GPA... I advanced the typical SDN argument that high GPA shows a dedicated student as opposed to high MCAT which simply reflect a student who is good at taking standardized test... He told point blank that he believes that GPAs will likely become obsolete in 10 years when it comes to judging applicants competitiveness and most schools will rely VERY heavily on MCAT score once an applicant meet a minimum GPA threshold... He also told me that is something that is often discussed among ADCOM members and at his schools it has been shown that students with high GPA and a low MCAT struggle more than students with low GPA and high MCAT... Are there any statistics out there to back up his claim?... He also said something of that sort: These days students shop for high GPAs but they can not shop for high MCAT score...

 

[bionerd89]

I had the chance to meet an ADCOM member while touring a DO school last week... I basically confronted him about his school putting so much emphasis on MCAT rather than GPA... I advanced the typical SDN argument that high GPA shows a dedicated student as opposed to high MCAT which simply reflect a student who is good at taking standardized test... He told point blank that he believes that GPAs will likely become obsolete in 10 years when it comes to judging applicants competitiveness and most schools will rely VERY heavily on MCAT score once an applicant meet a minimum GPA threshold... He also told me that is something that is often discussed among ADCOM members and at his schools it has been shown that students with high GPA and a low MCAT struggle more than students with low GPA and high MCAT... Are there any statistics out there to back up his claim?... He also said something of that sort: These days students shop for high GPAs but they can not shop for high MCAT score...

I hate that there is so much emphasis on MCAT scores. I had to work full time while studying for the MCAT so I didn't score well. I envy those who took months off to just study for it. I really hope the DO school your referring to isn't one of my top choices.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I would say that he has some valid points, gpa in and of itself is not telling of many things. Hell even grades in the prereqs are not all that informative of what was actually learned and what was required of students. That being said the methodology of using mcat scores has issues as well mostly because of it being poorly oriented towards informing us about performance in even the boards with it having utterly no indication of relation to clnical capability and skills.

This to further not mention that the new mcat ( I'll call it 15'cat for the lulz) change in 2015 has spurred so much worry in medical school's ability to draw any value from the numbers from it that many ( Jefferson, Lecom, etc) have now actually openly made the move to preliminarily take sat/act information from applicants so that they can actually have a clue about what meaning their student's performance on the 15'cat even means.

So in the end, I think it's really difficult to draw whether or not the mcat will be entirely the number measure for admission mostly because it is being so graphically changed that adcoms may have to rely on the gpa to inform them of where their applicants stand.


But who knows, I don't think they're going to phase out gpa because it is despite being variable a good measure of a student's dedication and long term study habits and thus related to performance on the first 2 years. But who knows, the 15'cat may be a better indicator.

 

[user3]

Why worry so much about this. There are about a dozen plus schools where one would be competitive with as low as 3.2/3.2/24. If you're happy with schools like ACOM MUCOM VCOM's CUSOM LMU WVSOM LUCOM PCOM ga WCU KYCOM SOMA LECOM or PNWU someone with these numbers would get multiple interviews and acceptances.

 

[mappingmedicine]

It's an interesting argument. Nowadays it's relatively easy to find methods to inflate your GPA to maximum levels while putting less than conventional effort for what used to be "earned" grades. Different schools and different majors make comparing GPA statistics among applicants apples to oranges. I know people that have withheld taking classes (graduating later) because of professor selection and not wanting to kill their GPAs. It's common practice nowadays to map your course selection to your advantage and you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage by not doing it. Now, whether or not medical schools hold MCAT over GPA in higher regard is not a question of "if," but rather when and to what degree, as GPA inflation is too large to gauge. To us, yes, medical school is an investment. But conversely, when a medical school extends an acceptance they are investing in "us," the student. It's a two way street.

 

[Dreamstoo]

Why worry so much about this. There are about a dozen plus schools where one would be competitive with as low as 3.2/3.2/24. If you're happy with schools like ACOM MUCOM VCOM's CUSOM LMU WVSOM LUCOM PCOM ga WCU KYCOM SOMA LECOM or PNWU someone with these numbers would get multiple interviews and acceptances.

😕 Those stats are equivalent to about a 56 Lizzy M. The average accepted student this year into an osteopathic school had a Lizzy M of about a 62. This would not guarantee multiple interviews/acceptances at all. If the MCAT score was 30+, then possibly. With a 24, I don't think a person would.

 

[Dreamstoo]

It's an interesting argument. Nowadays it's relatively easy to find methods to inflate your GPA to maximum levels while putting less than conventional effort for what used to be "earned" grades. Different schools and different majors make comparing GPA statistics among applicants apples to oranges. I know people that have withheld taking classes (graduating later) because of professor selection and not wanting to kill their GPAs. It's common practice nowadays to map your course selection to your advantage and you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage by not doing it. Now, whether or not medical schools hold MCAT over GPA in higher regard is not a question of "if," but rather when and to what degree, as GPA inflation is too large to gauge. To us, yes, medical school is an investment. But conversely, when a medical school extends an acceptance they are investing in "us," the student. It's a two way street.

Very well put 👍

 

[JaymezYu]

This might be a stupid question and I know this is a DO thread, but I was just curious as to if this is also the case to MD school ADCOM's?

 

[Roxas]

So is LizzyM score basically obsolete?

 

[Goro]

Before any of you blow a gasket, just keep in mind that this is one guy's opinion.

My school has over a decade's worth of data to show that MCAT has NOTHING to do with either COMLEX performance or perfomance in medical school. There's some data that's about 13 years old for MD students that shows low MCAT scores = trouble in med scool and trouble with USLME. So, take it with a large bag of NaCl.

I had the chance to meet an ADCOM member while touring a DO school last week... I basically confronted him about his school putting so much emphasis on MCAT rather than GPA...

He also told me that is something that is often discussed among ADCOM members and at his schools it has been shown that students with high GPA and a low MCAT struggle more than students with low GPA and high MCAT...

My two cents on this is that you have to look at the whole person, just like DOs do, and not take a single determinant ina vacuum. For example, a high GPA + low MCAT might mean the person is a poor test taker, not a poor student, and a low GPA + high MCAT might mean that the person is indeed merely a good test taker.



I advanced the typical SDN argument that high GPA shows a dedicated student as opposed to high MCAT which simply reflect a student who is good at taking standardized test...

One guy's opinion. i think the SAT will disappear before the MCAT ever will.


He told point blank that he believes that GPAs will likely become obsolete in 10 years when it comes to judging applicants competitiveness and most schools will rely VERY heavily on MCAT score once an applicant meet a minimum GPA threshold...


Makes sense, but only up to a point. You can't do that sort of behavior over 120 credits worth of a degree.

He also said something of that sort: These days students shop for high GPAs but they can not shop for high MCAT score...[/QUOTE]

 

[Columbia09]

I spoke to an ADCOM at NYCOM a couple of days ago who said a low MCAT isn't a death sentence if the applicant has an above average gpa and strong ecs. They look at the whole person not just the number that shows up on your mcat score report.

 

[user3]

😕 Those stats are equivalent to about a 56 Lizzy M. The average accepted student this year into an osteopathic school had a Lizzy M of about a 62. This would not guarantee multiple interviews/acceptances at all. If the MCAT score was 30+, then possibly. With a 24, I don't think a person would.

These schools I listed have much lower averages though, some as low as 3.4/25. Someone with a 3.2 sgpa and 24, for example, got 6 interviews. Another person with 3.2 sgpa and 23 got 5 interviews, all at these newer schools.

 

[SLC]

These schools I listed have much lower averages though, some as low as 3.4/25. Someone with a 3.2 sgpa and 24, for example, got 6 interviews. Another person with 3.2 sgpa and 23 got 5 interviews, all at these newer schools.

I can't speak for them all, but SOMA has identical average stats to KCOM at the last ATSU publication.

 

[ChineseKid]

Thing is, if you have a high GPA, you should have a high MCAT
It always interest me how some people have a cGPA of 3.9 or 4 but a MCAT of 22

Besides, later on in medicine, there's a crap loads of 'standardized tests'

 

[user3]

I can't speak for them all, but SOMA has identical average stats to KCOM at the last ATSU publication.

FWIW, 2 people on here got into soma this year with 3.35/3.16/24 and 3.4/20

 

[Hvilledoc]

FWIW, 2 people on here got into soma this year with 3.35/3.16/24 and 3.4/20

but do those people that go into SOMA have some kind of exceptional ECs?

 

[bionerd89]

Thing is, if you have a high GPA, you should have a high MCAT
It always interest me how some people have a cGPA of 3.9 or 4 but a MCAT of 22

Besides, later on in medicine, there's a crap loads of 'standardized tests'

For me , the material on the test was easy but I kept running out of time. I'm not a very fast reader and I'm slow at doing calculations. I am definitely going to improve on those aspects for future standardized tests.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

but do those people that go into SOMA have some kind of exceptional ECs?

Most likely the majority of outliers have valid factors that got them their acceptances.

 

[NontradCA]

I'm betting that Liberty University will have a 3.1-3.3 and 22-24 MCAT average for their first class.

 

[SLC]

FWIW, 2 people on here got into soma this year with 3.35/3.16/24 and 3.4/20

That represents 1.8% of the class, and the average is still something like 3.5, 27

But yeah, I have a classmate who says he had a 21, he's doing well.

Still, the average is much higher than you let on, and for everyone who gets in with low stats, there are many with similar stats who get rejected.

These folks are very much the outlier at just about every school.

but do those people that go into SOMA have some kind of exceptional ECs?

I had a low GPA/high MCAT and yes, I had exceptional EC's.

 

[D2thaJay]

I have a 3.9 and got a 27 on the MCAT. Studied my butt off for four months. Felt really confident going into the test. Was not nervous and I didn't run out of time or felt rushed. After the test I thought I scored in my range of practice test, 29-34. I was definitely shocked when I received my scores, but after at lot of reflection I now feel that it just isn't my test to do exceptional on. However, in no way did it shake my confidence in my abilities to do well in med school. If anything it makes me even more determined to prove that assumption wrong.

 

[Temperature101]

I'm betting that Liberty University will have a 3.1-3.3 and 22-24 MCAT average for their first class.

It will be more like 3.3-3.5 and 24-25 MCAT IMO.

 

[Columbia09]

If a school has an average of lets say 28. That means that there are plenty of people who have MCATs that are lower than that score. The question though is how lower ?

 

[circulus vitios]

I think both should be taken into consideration. I didn't do too well on the MCAT, but I think it has some value, even if it's completely irrelevant to learning and practicing medicine.

 

[Hvilledoc]

I think both should be taken into consideration. I didn't do too well on the MCAT, but I think it has some value, even if it's completely irrelevant to learning and practicing medicine.

i agree with you. I worked with plenty of DOs in the ER, and not one of them told me that they did well on the MCAT. They all said. "I did terrible on it". (I did not ask their specific score). And now they are successful physicians, and a couple of them are even ER directors.

 

[NeuroAP86]

I can speak from personal experience that the adcom person is right in some of the things he says. When I applied 4 years ago I had a low gpa(3.27) due to my own doing during my First 2 years of undergrad but got a 30 on my mcat and got into DO school. I haven't failed any classes (passed basic science with a high B average) and passed all my boards with average to above average scores so far. I know of many people in my class that had lower mcats and higher gpa that struggled through basic sciences and even boards. Unfortunately it comes down to standardized exams as the means of comparing people Cuz gpa and course work is so variable between schools. Now there are always exceptions to the rule and there are many of them in my class too but the rule that doing well on standardized exams will translate to being successful in medical school and beyond is generally true.

 

[Der Kaiser]

Thing is, if you have a high GPA, you should have a high MCAT
It always interest me how some people have a cGPA of 3.9 or 4 but a MCAT of 22

Besides, later on in medicine, there's a crap loads of 'standardized tests'

I've always wondered about this myself. I mean, you take tons of tests in getting your gpa high. I suppose though that they are not standardized tests, but one would think all that practice at test taking in uni would pay off. To me poorer MCAT performance means either 1.) severe test anxiety (it happens) or 2.) failure to properly learn the material.

 

[user3]

They need to release more accurate practice tests. With 22 MCATs given a year, there's no reason they can't retire half of them and let people use them for practice.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I've always wondered about this myself. I mean, you take tons of tests in getting your gpa high. I suppose though that they are not standardized tests, but one would think all that practice at test taking in uni would pay off. To me poorer MCAT performance means either 1.) severe test anxiety (it happens) or 2.) failure to properly learn the material.

severe test anxiety is probably really common. There was one girl in my Kaplan class who told our teacher she started crying and hyperventilating during the practice exam... Surprising how she got a 15-20 on her first length despite being the only person in the class who can answer every problem. She used to give very long detailed answers. But she seems to get far top anxious during the actual testing environment. Also she works about 50 hrs/week and comes to class right after looking exhausted. I was volunteering 35-40 hours a week during those classes and I do admit looking at the clock a lot during the last hour. To be honest, during my first full length I scored around a 20 only because my environment was so distracting 😡. Looked over the exam and I could have easily scored a 24-26. Definitely going to the library during my next first length and wearing ear plugs.

 

[notbobtrustme]

It's much tougher to game a good MCAT score than a good GPA.

 

[Shinobiz11]

With my stats, do you think I'll be set with 24+ MCAT? My test is Thursday and I'm not nervous or scared, I just never want to see this crap ever again.

 

[user3]

With my stats, do you think I'll be set with 24+ MCAT? My test is Thursday and I'm not nervous or scared, I just never want to see this crap ever again.

yep

 

[Shinobiz11]

yep

So assuring

 

[TwinsFan]

It's much tougher to game a good MCAT score than a good GPA.

+1

Being a bad test taker is a silly excuse, how many tests does someone have to do well on to get a high gpa, hundreds? The problem is many course exams are simple regurgitation and pretty easy, the MCAT is neither.

The average state school where I did my postbacc had countless people with good gpas (3.5+) that could only score mid to high 20s on the MCAT, few broke 30. I talked to several people who transferred from schools they told me about where it was much much easier to get As than this school. This points to places where getting a high gpa is close to meaningless and severe grade inflation. And there are a lot more graduates from bottom of the barrel state schools and non-name Us than there are brand name universities. I could see how in many cases gpa is almost useless to assess a candidate.

 

[Columbia09]

+1

Being a bad test taker is a silly excuse, how many tests does someone have to do well on to get a high gpa, hundreds? The problem is many course exams are simple regurgitation and pretty easy, the MCAT is neither.

The average state school where I did my postbacc had countless people with good gpas (3.5+) that could only score mid to high 20s on the MCAT, few broke 30. I talked to several people who transferred from schools they told me about where it was much much easier to get As than this school. This points to places where getting a high gpa is close to meaningless and severe grade inflation. And there are a lot more graduates from bottom of the barrel state schools and non-name Us than there are brand name universities. I could see how in many cases gpa is almost useless to assess a candidate.

If anything, the GPA shows how much work ethic you have. If someone has all A's and a couple of B's with a major in biology, that will look very favorable. It's hard to game certain classes like organic which is basically a pain where ever you take it. Also the MCAT can't be the only factor that admissions officers look at. All the score says is that you did well or poorly on the MCAT.

 

[brownbaglunch]

.

 

[Eremba]

For me, taking a test with pencil and paper...which is what I did 95% of the time in ugrad was totally different than taking a text on a computer. I am a tactile person. I do much better when I can write on the test, cross out answers and write in what I know next to the material to work out the answer. Flipping back and forth from one screen to another and looking up and down from scratch paper to computer screen throws me off. And I PRACTICED. I took "10" (same ones more than once) full length practice exams before the real one and it was still a big adjustment. Even on my ugrad exams that I took on a computer I would miss silly crap....in one class my prof let me take it on paper and I got 100%. The he had me take the same exam on the computer a week later and I missed 4 questions....makes no sense, I know. I am just weird, I guess. It makes me mad because I know my stuff.....

 

[Goro]

Yup, nothing like data from a decade ago to get Deans and some adCom members salivating over the MCAT, even at DO programs!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23478635

The predictive validity of the MCAT exam in relation to academic performance through medical school: a national cohort study of 2001-2004 matriculants. Acad Med. 2013 May;88(5):666-71. doi: 10.1097/ACM.0b013e3182864299.

 

[Roxas]

For me, taking a test with pencil and paper...which is what I did 95% of the time in ugrad was totally different than taking a text on a computer. I am a tactile person. I do much better when I can write on the test, cross out answers and write in what I know next to the material to work out the answer. Flipping back and forth from one screen to another and looking up and down from scratch paper to computer screen throws me off. And I PRACTICED. I took "10" (same ones more than once) full length practice exams before the real one and it was still a big adjustment. Even on my ugrad exams that I took on a computer I would miss silly crap....in one class my prof let me take it on paper and I got 100%. The he had me take the same exam on the computer a week later and I missed 4 questions....makes no sense, I know. I am just weird, I guess. It makes me mad because I know my stuff.....

Thats funny you mention this because I'm the same way. During all my practice MCATs and even the real thing I had to have a pencil in my hand, even during VR where I didn't write anything.

 

[Wipeout416]

I can see the argument of gpas being a bit more varied. That is why they made a /standardized/test, no? 😉

Different philosophies for different people. In the end they look at everything, hopefully.

 

[TwinsFan]

If anything, the 1-GPA shows how much work ethic you have. If someone has all A's and a couple of B's with a major in biology, that will look very favorable. It's hard to game certain classes like organic which is basically a pain where ever you take it. Also 2-the MCAT can't be the only factor that admissions officers look at. All the score says is that you did well or poorly on the MCAT.

1- To some degree I agree with you. But gpa doesn't even come close to standardized, some of the engineering classes I took had ZERO people receive an A. It was a nationally recognized program where most who made it through the first 2 years of weed out classes (less than 10% graduated with the degree compared to freshman enrollment) were on academic full rides. Getting a B in those classes required 2 to 3 times the effort of getting an A in most of the biological science courses I took, and 4 times or more the amount of effort as the social/behavioral science classes I've taken, all while requiring a solid understanding of years of calculus/physics/thermodynamics. With all things equal, someone with a good math/physics aptitude would have to put in more effort to get a 3.0 where I did engineering than ~3.6-3.7 in biology.

2- I also agree, admissions must look at a big variety of things to decide on who to interview.


After taking classes at a few different places and in several disciplines I can attest to the fact that gpa varies wildly from major to major and institution to institution. This is why the MCAT should be a major factor in assessing candidate's academic aptitude.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yup, nothing like data from a decade ago to get Deans and some adCom members salivating over the MCAT, even at DO programs!

People are bad at research and reading results I guess. The mcat has gotten harder and as such this study lost a lot of crediability, and then finally the face of the application cycle is potentially a lot different than that of the 2001-2004 cycle. This basically really makes the data in this study completely useless.

 

[brownbaglunch]

.

 

[Dreamstoo]

People are bad at research and reading results I guess. The mcat has gotten harder and as such this study lost a lot of crediability, and then finally the face of the application cycle is potentially a lot different than that of the 2001-2004 cycle. This basically really makes the data in this study completely useless.

Yeah a state school accepted on average a 63 Lizzy M during that time period... now their lizzy m average is a 66-67. A lot of people I know who applied during that time period said it was no where as stressful as it is now in terms of pure numbers (GPA, MCAT)

 

[user3]

Yeah a state school accepted on average a 63 Lizzy M during that time period... now their lizzy m average is a 66-67. A lot of people I know who applied during that time period said it was no where as stressful as it is now in terms of pure numbers (GPA, MCAT)

I can imagine...today, even people with 3.4-3.5 GPA's and mid 30's MCAT are having a hard time getting in.

 

[notbobtrustme]

If anything, the GPA shows how much work ethic you have. If someone has all A's and a couple of B's with a major in biology, that will look very favorable. It's hard to game certain classes like organic which is basically a pain where ever you take it. Also the MCAT can't be the only factor that admissions officers look at. All the score says is that you did well or poorly on the MCAT.

eh, not really. Even back in 2001, most pre-meds knew of www.ratemyprofessor.com or any of the school specific ones that tell you what the easiest professors were. A high GPA isn't anything impressive unless it comes from a school known for grade deflation (eg Johns Hopkins).

A 3.5 or a 3.6 is pretty easy if you know how to gun for it. Scoring well on the MCAT, OTOH, requires much more effort and much more intuitive understanding.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Yup, nothing like data from a decade ago to get Deans and some adCom members salivating over the MCAT, even at DO programs!

It's worst tool adcoms have, except for all the other ones.

Personally, I put much more faith in the MCAT than anything else.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

eh, not really. Even back in 2001, most pre-meds knew of www.ratemyprofessor.com or any of the school specific ones that tell you what the easiest professors were. A high GPA isn't anything impressive unless it comes from a school known for grade deflation (eg Johns Hopkins).

A 3.5 or a 3.6 is pretty easy if you know how to gun for it. Scoring well on the MCAT, OTOH, requires much more effort and much more intuitive understanding.

Even with the hardest professors you can understand how to study for their exams and what to expect. With the mcat most people simply don't know how to even beginning to study or prepare. Most people will look at their 3 month plan and make millions of mistakes ranging from spending too much time on material they know already well or waste time by having a mindset of I can do it tomorrow.

 

[Temperature101]

eh, not really. Even back in 2001, most pre-meds knew of www.ratemyprofessor.com or any of the school specific ones that tell you what the easiest professors were. A high GPA isn't anything impressive unless it comes from a school known for grade deflation (eg Johns Hopkins).

A 3.5 or a 3.6 is pretty easy if you know how to gun for it. Scoring well on the MCAT, OTOH, requires much more effort and much more intuitive understanding.

This... I tend to agree with that ADCOM member... I remember there was only one physics 1 professor at my campus and his tests were crazy based on previous students testimony... His tests were so crazy that he gives every student 50 points and the test is out of 50 ...10 problems and each worth 5 points... No partial credits. When some of my friends told me they would commute about an hour to take the class in another campus, I thought they were crazy... I said to myself if that guy is giving 50 free points, that class should be an easy A... Boy! I was wrong. I busted my behind to get a B while my friends were getting 100 on their tests and did not understands anything because their professor told them what will be on the test and he will just change some numbers. In fact, one of these guys graduated with 3.9+ GPA by just picking easy professors so he can get As...

 

[Columbia09]

eh, not really. Even back in 2001, most pre-meds knew of www.ratemyprofessor.com or any of the school specific ones that tell you what the easiest professors were. A high GPA isn't anything impressive unless it comes from a school known for grade deflation (eg Johns Hopkins).

A 3.5 or a 3.6 is pretty easy if you know how to gun for it. Scoring well on the MCAT, OTOH, requires much more effort and much more intuitive understanding.

If you come from a school like myself where only one teacher teaches organic or physics then RMP s pretty much useless. I do see however where you are coming from and it's for this reason why I think school name has a big say in the admissions process. Most people will tell you that when they interviewed, the majority of the students came from big name schools