The Med School Secondary Fee Racket

[metalgearHMN]

I'm sure a lot of us didn't enjoy paying $60+ for all of our secondaries, especially if there was no pre-screening. It seems like they could lower the fees somewhat. For instance why do some schools charge $60 and others $130? Also, I did some crude calculations and it seems pre-meds spend A LOT of money on secondaries. For instance, last year:

42,269 Applicants applied with an average of 13 apps each (1)

Let's say out of those 13 apps, each applicant fills out an average of 8 Secondaries (me).

And let's say the average Secondary costs $60, which I think is a low estimate (me).

Yearly applicants spend: 42,269*8*60 = $20,289,120 on secondaries!!

Worst offenders:
George Washington: $125 fee, so if 75% of their 13,709 applicants fill out a secondary (no pre-screen) they rake in: .75*13709*125= $1,285,219!

That's a racket, and I think it unfairly favors wealthier applicants who can pay the fees with the money they use to blow their nose, or the poor who can have it subsidized, leaving most kids high and dry.

I don't see why these fees have to be so high. Anyways, I was bored of MCAT studying so I hope you enjoyed some useless information that you can do nothing about. You will never get that past 10 minutes of your life back.

It's an expensive process, choose wisely.

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[MiniMoo]

You only finished 8 secondaries? Man, you do not wanna know how many I ended up completing. I purposely didn't go back to add up how much I spent, because I seriously do not want to know.

 

[NickNaylor]

It's a fundraising scheme, don't think otherwise.

 

[Musclemass]

Most schools get WAY more apps than they need to see, to be able to fill each class with students they want to have. I didn't realize GW got so many, but I'd bet they set the secondary fee high to try to discourage people from applying. Having to process so many must be a nightmare.

I don't imagine the schools see it as a money racket - a private school like GW could probably make more profit, if it wanted to do so, by simply admitting a few more to each year's class. I agree with your comment, it's wrong that the cost serves to disadvantage anyone compared to someone else.

 

[rockaction]

the real question is why does AMCAS charge you $31 bucks to merely email a pdf of your app and letters to your schools? hell, if I bought the stamps, paper, and envelopes I could send my primary to each school for a couple bucks each tops.

 

[DrBowtie]

Most schools get WAY more apps than they need to see, to be able to fill each class with students they want to have. I didn't realize GW got so many, but I'd bet they set the secondary fee high to try to discourage people from applying. Having to process so many must be a nightmare.

Why would GW want to discourage people from applying? They know the majority will be rejected. They get $125 from each person and maybe spend postage on a rejection letter. Sure they pay staff and for recruitment materials out of this, but the marginal cost of each additional is pretty close to nil. They charge a lot because they are MAXIMIZING profits.

I don't imagine the schools see it as a money racket - a private school like GW could probably make more profit, if it wanted to do so, by simply admitting a few more to each year's class. I agree with your comment, it's wrong that the cost serves to disadvantage anyone compared to someone else.

The marginal cost for adding a medical student to the class is considerably more than processing even 1000 more applicants.

 

[randombetch]

Why would GW want to discourage people from applying? They know the majority will be rejected. They get $125 from each person and maybe spend postage on a rejection letter. Sure they pay staff and for recruitment materials out of this, but the marginal cost of each additional is pretty close to nil. They charge a lot because they are MAXIMIZING profits.



The marginal cost for adding a medical student to the class is considerably more than processing even 1000 more applicants.

👍 Glad to see med students with some econ knowledge.

 

[Sammich117]

You only finished 8 secondaries? Man, you do not wanna know how many I ended up completing. I purposely didn't go back to add up how much I spent, because I seriously do not want to know.

Me too. I don't ever want to think about how much applying cost me.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

Admins need new Bentleys.

 

[LizzyM]

Why would GW want to discourage people from applying? They know the majority will be rejected. They get $125 from each person and maybe spend postage on a rejection letter.

If GW's secondary fee were $12, how many applications would they get? (Oh, what the heck, it's only an extra $12.) That's what the poster who suggested that the fee is set to discourage frivolous applications is talking about.

There are more expenses than the postage to send a rejection letter. Each of those applications has to be processed by office staff (salary & benefits) using modern computer systems (including custom built software - you can't buy this off the shelf) in dedicated and secure office space (another cost charged to the admissions office by the university). Each application has to be reviewed either by someone on the payroll (more $) and/or faculty volunteers (it costs money in the form of staff time to recruit the volunteers). Other medical school admissions office expenses include receptionist/someone to answer your phone calls, recruiting visits and promotional materials including fees charged by sponsors of "fairs", web design and maintenance of information for prospective students, interview day materials and refreshments, and finally the cost of enough coffee and other modest refreshments to keep the adcom going through meetings where the decisions are made.😀

I suspect that some schools charge a higher than average fee because they want to discourage frivolous applications or because the cost of administrating the office is unusually high. I'm sure that there is some "what's everyone else doing" stuff going on and you'd figure that there is a sweet spot between too low = too many applications from people who aren't really interested and too high leading to too few applications.

 

[Musclemass]

The marginal cost for adding a medical student to the class is considerably more than processing even 1000 more applicants.

I think the cost of adding one or two or five students to each class is zero. Do that at a private school over 4 classes and you have a million bucks to spend, far more than is left over from app fees after considering expenses. While a million bucks is better to have than to not have, it's less than a drop in the bucket considering the megabucks involved for any major school/health center operation.

What extra costs do you think can come from having just an extra handful of students?

 

[LizzyM]

An additional four students means an additional cadaver and all that goes with that (storage space, floor space, table, equipment). Ditto microscopes, bench space, etc in histo lab. Additional chairs and space in lecture halls (some are filled to capacity as it is with current class size plus additional students from other programs). While a 4% increase in class size might be do-able with economy of scale, at some point everything bursts at the seams and is just not big enough to accomodate more growth. Plus, consider that tuition, whatever it is, does not cover 100% of the cost of educating a student (schools actually lose money on students) and therefore require fund raising ("development") to cover the difference.

 

[ucsfstudents]

Unfortunately, applying to medical school is very expensive. But hopefully, that does not deter too many students from applying.

 

[DrBowtie]

If GW's secondary fee were $12, how many applications would they get? (Oh, what the heck, it's only an extra $12.) That's what the poster who suggested that the fee is set to discourage frivolous applications is talking about.

There are more expenses than the postage to send a rejection letter. Each of those applications has to be processed by office staff (salary & benefits) using modern computer systems (including custom built software - you can't buy this off the shelf) in dedicated and secure office space (another cost charged to the admissions office by the university). Each application has to be reviewed either by someone on the payroll (more $) and/or faculty volunteers (it costs money in the form of staff time to recruit the volunteers). Other medical school admissions office expenses include receptionist/someone to answer your phone calls, recruiting visits and promotional materials including fees charged by sponsors of "fairs", web design and maintenance of information for prospective students, interview day materials and refreshments, and finally the cost of enough coffee and other modest refreshments to keep the adcom going through meetings where the decisions are made.😀

I suspect that some schools charge a higher than average fee because they want to discourage frivolous applications or because the cost of administrating the office is unusually high. I'm sure that there is some "what's everyone else doing" stuff going on and you'd figure that there is a sweet spot between too low = too many applications from people who aren't really interested and too high leading to too few applications.

You kinda clipped my post too short. I did say that there was a certain fixed cost to run an admissions office. After those are covered, it would take a large amount of applications to justify adding another staff member hence why the marginal cost of an applicant is almost zero.

I think the cost of adding one or two or five students to each class is zero. Do that at a private school over 4 classes and you have a million bucks to spend, far more than is left over from app fees after considering expenses. While a million bucks is better to have than to not have, it's less than a drop in the bucket considering the megabucks involved for any major school/health center operation.

What extra costs do you think can come from having just an extra handful of students?

An additional four students means an additional cadaver and all that goes with that (storage space, floor space, table, equipment). Ditto microscopes, bench space, etc in histo lab. Additional chairs and space in lecture halls (some are filled to capacity as it is with current class size plus additional students from other programs). While a 4% increase in class size might be do-able with economy of scale, at some point everything bursts at the seams and is just not big enough to accomodate more growth. Plus, consider that tuition, whatever it is, does not cover 100% of the cost of educating a student (schools actually lose money on students) and therefore require fund raising ("development") to cover the difference.

What she said. I know of a few places whose lecture halls already can't fit the entire class and use overflow rooms. Its also a lot easier to add people to the preclinical years, than finding more preceptors or adding yet another person to the 20 person IM rounds.

 

[LizzyM]

Given that there are twice as many applicants nationally as there are seats, and given that some schools have so many applications that they make offers to only 5% of those who apply, I don't see folks being discouraged from applying due to cost to be a huge issue.

 

[MJM09]

Given that there are twice as many applicants nationally as there are seats, and given that some schools have so many applications that they make offers to only 5% of those who apply, I don't see folks being discouraged from applying due to cost to be a huge issue.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's a justification. I was in the income bracket where $60 to $100 per application is a huge deal, I don't have an extra $1000 lying around to put in to secondaries (not to mention AMCAS itself, new suit, traveling for interviews, etc.). Luckily, I qualified for the FAP and most schools were willing to waive or reduce their app fees due to that, but I know there are many in my situation that aren't lucky enough to get the FAP. I am not saying I think the apps should be free- I don't (I work with undergrad admissions, I know it's not cheap to run an admissions office)- but I do think that if you're not going to screen your secondaries at all, a fee of $100 is silly. It's definitely a budget boosting measure when you're accepting secondaries from students you have no intent to evaluate in the first place. If Student X submits his AMCAS with a 2.5 and a 24 MCAT, you're not going to give his application more than a minute's consideration, yet you still "invite" him to your secondary where he pays $100 more to be rejected anyway. I don't think all schools do that, but there are enough out there that do that it is concerning.
(With that said, I also know how rankings and such work and know that denying more people boosts selectivity, etc. Not a huge issue for medical schools like it is for undergrads, but it still raises the question of why secondaries/complete applications are offered to unqualified students.)

 

[LizzyM]

it still raises the question of why secondaries/complete applications are offered to unqualified students.)

Students of modest means qualify for FAP and thank God for that.

Screening prior to secondaries always raises issues of missing people with very interesting stories who are very qualified despite the numbers.... one guy who was denied a secondary (a decision he appealled) ended up admitted, and admitted to AOA (medical honor society)!

The secondary fee is a tax on the overly opptimistic. Self-screen, people! One or two "reaches" are reasonable but I came up with the LizzyM score for a reason. Stick to schools where your stats are at or slightly above a school's average ((10)gpa + MCAT) and you won't be throwing your money away.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

one thing i do think is that if a school charges a secondary fee, they should at least have the common courtesy to make sure every rejection is sent out in a timely manner, and they should have no post-secondary computer cutoff.

 

[PR405]

That is why we have:

what I am still kinda insulted by is the fee-only secondaries like at SUNY Buffalo!

 

[MJM09]

Students of modest means qualify for FAP and thank God for that.

Screening prior to secondaries always raises issues of missing people with very interesting stories who are very qualified despite the numbers.... one guy who was denied a secondary (a decision he appealled) ended up admitted, and admitted to AOA (medical honor society)!

The secondary fee is a tax on the overly opptimistic. Self-screen, people! One or two "reaches" are reasonable but I came up with the LizzyM score for a reason. Stick to schools where your stats are at or slightly above a school's average ((10)gpa + MCAT) and you won't be throwing your money away.

I don't disagree with you, exactly, and I do know what you mean about the overly optimistic. However, it still lets the well-off applicants apply everywhere with a shotgun effect of "maybe I'll get in somewhere" while the middle class don't have the same opportunity.
I remain confident my "story" is what got me admitted, because my grades were low and my MCAT is just okay, so thank God for that. However, that's what the personal statement is supposed to be for (at least in my mind). I know that having someone read thousands of personal statements isn't fun, but it seems more appropriate than inviting students to complete a secondary when they didn't attempt to sell that story in the personal statement. At any rate, I'm reasonably confident that some of my secondaries didn't get read anyway... with thousands of applications it seems a bit quick to get a letter back a week after my secondary was received offering condolences for a rejection reached after "careful consideration" ( judging by the postmark, it occurred in a three day window of receiving my secondary, and I have friends who have had the same thing happen from various schools). If I had paid for that secondary, I would have been quite miffed, since it appears they had no intention of offering an interview anyway.

 

[uhmm]

Even though the secondaries have costed me a ton of money, I think most schools barely break even with their admissions process in terms of economic returns. So say the average secondary cost $100, and an average school has 5000 applicants a year, that's $500,000 in revenues. However, let's say there's 5 admins per school, whose net earnings +benefits will cost the school about $100,000 each (consider the social security taxes + benefits paid for them on behalf of the school), that's already $500,000 in cost. Also, if they interview 1000 candidates, which cost them approximately $10 per candidate (lunch, snacks provided, printed materials), that's another $10,000. Consider all the printing cost and postage that they have to send to reject candidates ($.5*5000), another $2500, and I am not even considering the overhead costs such as rent on the space, the utilities, and maintenance fee. Finally, add on the snacks they have to provide at committee meetings, it totals to a net loss for the school. So I would not say that it's a fundraising opportunity. Even though the marginal cost per applicant is close to zero, they need a huge number of applicants just to breakeven.

 

[locus000]

FSUCOM is has no secondary fee unless you get accepted then you pay $30

I didnt submit my secondary for GW. That $120 covered the 4 FL school secondaries fee that I applied to (30 each)

 

[Sammich117]

FSUCOM is has no secondary fee unless you get accepted then you pay $30

I didnt submit my secondary for GW. That $120 covered the 4 FL school secondaries fee that I applied to (30 each)

I seriously could have saved so much money if I had only applied to FSU....

 

[LizzyM]

Besides doing MD admissions I have a little grad program on the side.... 😉 and I really struggle with how long to wait before sending a denial letter. In some cases I can read the personal statement and review the application in about 10 minutes but it seems too cruel to issue a denial so quickly so I put it in the drawer and send the letter a couple weeks later. On the other hand, some other grad programs that I help with have a slow moving committee process such that it can take months to get a decision one way or the other....

About those prompt rejections vs. a rejection in April.... some schools want to keep their options open (a rejection is permanent) in the event that you win the lottery and donate a $1,000,000 to the University, or send an up-date letter that describes your Nobel-quality research, or some other thing that puts your application in a new light.

 

[startswithb]

Even though the secondaries have costed me a ton of money, I think most schools barely break even with their admissions process in terms of economic returns. So say the average secondary cost $100, and an average school has 5000 applicants a year, that's $500,000 in revenues. However, let's say there's 5 admins per school, whose net earnings +benefits will cost the school about $100,000 each (consider the social security taxes + benefits paid for them on behalf of the school), that's already $500,000 in cost. Also, if they interview 1000 candidates, which cost them approximately $10 per candidate (lunch, snacks provided, printed materials), that's another $10,000. Consider all the printing cost and postage that they have to send to reject candidates ($.5*5000), another $2500, and I am not even considering the overhead costs such as rent on the space, the utilities, and maintenance fee. Finally, add on the snacks they have to provide at committee meetings, it totals to a net loss for the school. So I would not say that it's a fundraising opportunity. Even though the marginal cost per applicant is close to zero, they need a huge number of applicants just to breakeven.

I doubt adcoms make $100,000 plus their salary, considering they're generally full-time faculty members. That's quite the part-time job! And if they're paying their administrative staff that much, wow.

 

[alibai3ah]

Umm, some schools are such a**holes, that they charge you for the secondary fee for you to "receive the secondary" and then reject you pre-secondary after......

 

[alibai3ah]

I doubt adcoms make $100,000 plus their salary, considering they're generally full-time faculty members. That's quite the part-time job! And if they're paying their administrative staff that much, wow.

Agreed! If anyone here is deluded into thinking that admissions people make 100,000 with full benefits...man o man.

I applied for jobs at a medical school (research positions) and ran into a adcomm job, it paid 18-20 bucks an hour max.... Unless you are a faculty member, you are not making 100K

 

[kmd34]

I think, the medical school admission system is very long, expensive (For both schools and students), stressful and lot of repeated efforts.
There should be some centralize system controlled by AAMC. I have thought with specific example. Every student will be given quantitative points.

1. Total MCAT : quantitative points based on total score for example 45 has 300 points and 24 has 50 point
2. Total GPA : for example 4 has 200 points and 3 has 50 point. It should multiply by school factor (Like top Universities have 1 factor, Mid range school have 0.95, some state school have 0.9 and community college have 0.8)
3. Science GPA : Same as #2
4. Clinical volunteer, Humanitarian volunteer, Research, Leadership, work experience and quality of coarses : AAMC assign two persons to evaluate application and give points. Maximum points is 100
5. Personal statement : same as #4 Maximum points 50
6. LOR : Same as # 4 maximum points is 50
7. Interview : AAMC should assign two faculty members of nearest medical school. Interviewer will assign points. Maximum point is 300

Considering 50,000 total applicants, AAMC needs 100,000 applicant (one applicant will be evaluate by 2 different person) for Item 4, 5 and 6. Considering 125 medical schools, each school has to evaluate only 800 applicant (current system they are doing more than 5000)

Based on points of Item 1 to 6, AAMC will qualify around 36,000 candidates for interview for 18,000 available total slots. Each school have to conduct only 576 interview (per current system, each school interviewing minimum 500 students and total interview would be 1000)

In the application, candidate will be asked to prioritize medical schools ( 1 to 125)

Based on the total points (item 1 to 7) and priority school list, computer algorithm software will match medical school for each 1 to 18000 ranked students. If student A (Non URM) has rank of 12000th, and his/her first 50 schools are free, he/she will get admission to his/her 51th ranking schools.

All game is over in 3 months time frame, no multiple application, no multiple interviews, no multiple acceptance, no waiting for hold list.

 

[uhmm]

Agreed! If anyone here is deluded into thinking that admissions people make 100,000 with full benefits...man o man.

I applied for jobs at a medical school (research positions) and ran into a adcomm job, it paid 18-20 bucks an hour max.... Unless you are a faculty member, you are not making 100K

I am saying on average, because a medical school usually has 2 deans of admissions, and 2 admins and 1-4 other full time staff members, the $100,000 per person is the average because the dean of course makes much more with benefits and the admins less. So $500,000 is salary is a pretty conservative estimate. I am not talking about the faculty people who sit on the voting committee...

 

[LizzyM]

Agreed! If anyone here is deluded into thinking that admissions people make 100,000 with full benefits...man o man.

I applied for jobs at a medical school (research positions) and ran into a adcomm job, it paid 18-20 bucks an hour max.... Unless you are a faculty member, you are not making 100K

True. Most of the folks on the adcom payroll are clerical workers or business administrators. Deans of admissions often have clinical responsibilies in the "slow season" to help cover part of their salaries. No one is getting rich... for some the adcom is an alternative to waitressing while pursuing a career in the arts.

 

[LizzyM]

In the application, candidate will be asked to prioritize medical schools ( 1 to 125)

Based on the total points (item 1 to 7) and priority school list, computer algorithm software will match medical school for each 1 to 18000 ranked students. If student A (Non URM) has rank of 12000th, and his/her first 50 schools are free, he/she will get admission to his/her 51th ranking schools.

All game is over in 3 months time frame, no multiple application, no multiple interviews, no multiple acceptance, no waiting for hold list.

But one purpose of the interview is to introduce applicants to the school, provide a tour, etc for the purpose of selling the school.

Furthermore, many applicants are making matriculation decisions based on net cost after need and merit based aid is factored in. That doesn't work in your system.

The points for volunteer/research etc lumped together doesn't work for schools that have particular targeted areas of interest that would be worth more points. Currently, if you apply to 15 schools you have between 15 and 90 people looking at your PS and odds are that someone is going to like it. I'd hate to put a PS in the hands of just 2 people who have minimum experience with reading them.

 

[Laryngophed]

True. Most of the folks on the adcom payroll are clerical workers or business administrators. Deans of admissions often have clinical responsibilies in the "slow season" to help cover part of their salaries. No one is getting rich... for some the adcom is an alternative to waitressing while pursuing a career in the arts.

I've heard a few describe it as the 7th circle of Hell as well. It turns out that at my "home" institution there is a price to be paid for not getting grants renewed and that price is compulsory committee service.

 

[He2]

i say we have a draft. Live from NYC. LizzyM gets to the podium after a 5 minute decision making time whereafter each school in snake fashion (starting from US & News rank), drafts players based on the needs of their class. 9 rounds, 125 students. People with 35+ MCAT are invited into a green room to hear their name called by their favorite schools.

Schools are allowed to trade down their high picks to multiple picks in the lower first or second round to encourage a greater diversity in their class. Wheeling and dealing is highly encouraged. After the draft is up, students sign onto schools' extra training camp spots to see if they can make the cut. Only the strong survive.

Dreams will be made. Hopes will be shattered. and all broadcasted on ESPN. Medical school draft weekend!!! WOOOT!

 

[MJM09]

I think, the medical school admission system is very long, expensive (For both schools and students), stressful and lot of repeated efforts.
There should be some centralize system controlled by AAMC. I have thought with specific example. Every student will be given quantitative points.

1. Total MCAT : quantitative points based on total score for example 45 has 300 points and 24 has 50 point
2. Total GPA : for example 4 has 200 points and 3 has 50 point. It should multiply by school factor (Like top Universities have 1 factor, Mid range school have 0.95, some state school have 0.9 and community college have 0.8)
3. Science GPA : Same as #2
4. Clinical volunteer, Humanitarian volunteer, Research, Leadership, work experience and quality of coarses : AAMC assign two persons to evaluate application and give points. Maximum points is 100
5. Personal statement : same as #4 Maximum points 50
6. LOR : Same as # 4 maximum points is 50
7. Interview : AAMC should assign two faculty members of nearest medical school. Interviewer will assign points. Maximum point is 300

Considering 50,000 total applicants, AAMC needs 100,000 applicant (one applicant will be evaluate by 2 different person) for Item 4, 5 and 6. Considering 125 medical schools, each school has to evaluate only 800 applicant (current system they are doing more than 5000)

Based on points of Item 1 to 6, AAMC will qualify around 36,000 candidates for interview for 18,000 available total slots. Each school have to conduct only 576 interview (per current system, each school interviewing minimum 500 students and total interview would be 1000)

In the application, candidate will be asked to prioritize medical schools ( 1 to 125)

Based on the total points (item 1 to 7) and priority school list, computer algorithm software will match medical school for each 1 to 18000 ranked students. If student A (Non URM) has rank of 12000th, and his/her first 50 schools are free, he/she will get admission to his/her 51th ranking schools.

All game is over in 3 months time frame, no multiple application, no multiple interviews, no multiple acceptance, no waiting for hold list.

I'm actually extremely glad a system like that doesn't exist, or I'm not sure I'd have gotten in. You need a certain amount of human element in the process- a straightforward equation that removes subjectivity across the board just won't work for a process that is based so much off of emotion and who the applicant is. I'm confident that my interviewers fought a little for me, and in that case, I'm glad that their voices outweighed whatever numerical value I'd been assigned before that. Although I understand what your system attempts to accomplish, there's no way all medical schools would agree to the same rating criteria (nor should they), agree to the same interviewing techniques (nor should they), or agree that the AAMC can appropriately evaluate a person's clinical and volunteer experiences (once again, nor should they). Medical schools all want good students, but they also want a student that will be a good fit for their university and a good representative of it in the long run. (Nothing is a worse advertisement for a med school than a notoriously irritable, careless, or rude doctor.) Although the process is very complicated, expensive, and stressful, standardizing the system is no more sensible (or likely to happen) than making Harvard and the University of Tennessee agree to the same admissions practices. Every school deserves it's own process, and we as applicants should have to deal with that if we want to apply there.

 

[flip26]

Students of modest means qualify for FAP and thank God for that.

Screening prior to secondaries always raises issues of missing people with very interesting stories who are very qualified despite the numbers.... one guy who was denied a secondary (a decision he appealled) ended up admitted, and admitted to AOA (medical honor society)!

The secondary fee is a tax on the overly opptimistic. Self-screen, people! One or two "reaches" are reasonable but I came up with the LizzyM score for a reason. Stick to schools where your stats are at or slightly above a school's average ((10)gpa + MCAT) and you won't be throwing your money away.

I agree with this, especially the part about applying to just a few "reaches." Apply to all of your state schools, then be honest about your app strength when applying OOS, to reaches, etc. Self screening is essential.

 

[MJM09]

I agree with this, especially the part about applying to just a few "reaches." Apply to all of your state schools, then be honest about your app strength when applying OOS, to reaches, etc. Self screening is essential.

Amen to that. The MSAR was my "debbie downer" friend when looking at schools to apply to, but I'm glad she was around to make sure I wasn't wasting my time and money any more than needed.

 

[He2]

I'm actually extremely glad a system like that doesn't exist, or I'm not sure I'd have gotten in. You need a certain amount of human element in the process- a straightforward equation that removes subjectivity across the board just won't work for a process that is based so much off of emotion and who the applicant is. I'm confident that my interviewers fought a little for me, and in that case, I'm glad that their voices outweighed whatever numerical value I'd been assigned before that. Although I understand what your system attempts to accomplish, there's no way all medical schools would agree to the same rating criteria (nor should they), agree to the same interviewing techniques (nor should they), or agree that the AAMC can appropriately evaluate a person's clinical and volunteer experiences (once again, nor should they). Medical schools all want good students, but they also want a student that will be a good fit for their university and a good representative of it in the long run. (Nothing is a worse advertisement for a med school than a notoriously irritable, careless, or rude doctor.) Although the process is very complicated, expensive, and stressful, standardizing the system is no more sensible (or likely to happen) than making Harvard and the University of Tennessee agree to the same admissions practices. Every school deserves it's own process, and we as applicants should have to deal with that if we want to apply there.

In regards to this, i do agree that there needs to be a human element to it, but there also needs to be a standard that is objective in some way. Unfortunately, those two things are awfully hard to do since we know very little about what it is exactly that makes a good doctor at this stage of our lives, just like alot of people in education have no idea what it takes to make a good teacher. However, TFA has recently done a much better job looking at things like Grit and extracurricular growth to create a quantifiable measure. However, this also quantifies it, by making it so its not a shot in the dark.

I think one of the most frustrating things that I hear from applicants is that you can essentially pretend to be someone that you are not for 30 minutes in an interview and then get in ( I know of some pretty atrocious admitted examples), whereas someone who worked hard for 4 years did not because they were not willing to . You start running into problems like the halo effect too.

When it comes down to it, I think the problem is that people applying to medical schools need to be hard working people. People work hard because they believe in the power of controlling their own destiny, in self improvement. The admissions process takes that out of the hands of the applicants into a place that distorts this.

However, i do think the current system is absolutely one of the most fair processes in the entire world. I sat here today looking at resumes of people who are have worked AMAZINGLY hard their entire lives, but because of geography (being born in india, for example), they happen to work as customer service reps.

We're all lucky. But its still awfully frustrating sometimes

 

[ILikeDrugs]

in the event that you win the lottery and donate a $1,000,000 to the University, or send an up-date letter that describes your Nobel-quality research, or some other thing that puts your application in a new light.

Have you ever seen someone admitted at your school because of a large donation? If so, how much was it? What is the minimum donation that a school would accept in exchange for an automatic acceptance? Do grades/experience go out the window if a certain amount of money is to be donated?

 

[locus000]

i say we have a draft. Live from NYC. LizzyM gets to the podium after a 5 minute decision making time whereafter each school in snake fashion (starting from US & News rank), drafts players based on the needs of their class. 9 rounds, 125 students. People with 35+ MCAT are invited into a green room to hear their name called by their favorite schools.

Schools are allowed to trade down their high picks to multiple picks in the lower first or second round to encourage a greater diversity in their class. Wheeling and dealing is highly encouraged. After the draft is up, students sign onto schools' extra training camp spots to see if they can make the cut. Only the strong survive.

Dreams will be made. Hopes will be shattered. and all broadcasted on ESPN. Medical school draft weekend!!! WOOOT!

I like the idea. I hope we have no school do what the Raiders do year in and year out and pick the flashy guy who never pans out.

 

[He2]

....but his 40 page reading speed is SO FAST!

 

[He2]

and incredible book carrying potential. blazing fast pipette dispensing! A can't miss!

may present some chemistry issues, however. But if you have a hole in your laboratory lineup, and need to shore up your research, he2's for you!

(not really)

 

[locus000]

....but his 40 page reading speed is SO FAST!

he could be on enhancers 😀

 

[He2]

OO HOW DARE YOU! i would NEVER use SSRI's.

I demand you cease and desist.....

 

[LizzyM]

Seriously, most schools put a firewall between development (fund raising) and admissions. Some deans are more successful than others at standing up to pressure from above.

 

[randombetch]

I think the cost of adding one or two or five students to each class is zero. Do that at a private school over 4 classes and you have a million bucks to spend, far more than is left over from app fees after considering expenses. While a million bucks is better to have than to not have, it's less than a drop in the bucket considering the megabucks involved for any major school/health center operation.

What extra costs do you think can come from having just an extra handful of students?

Rational people think at the margin.

 

[kavorca]

If a school really wants less people to apply all they need to do is add an essay or two. They can raise secondary fees almost as high as they want and people will apply, especially to everyone's favorite safety GW. People see that 30 MCAT in the MSAR and will write a check for whatever it takes.

 

[boaz]

the real question is why does AMCAS charge you $31 bucks to merely email a pdf of your app and letters to your schools? hell, if I bought the stamps, paper, and envelopes I could send my primary to each school for a couple bucks each tops.

I can see why schools that get huge numbers of applications would feel at liberty to charge a high secondary fee. There is some correlation between total number of applications and secondary fee. From the 2010-2011 school selector spreadsheet, looking at the top 7 we see a clear link:

 

[boaz]

Even better:

Basic economics at work here...

 

[LizzyM]

I bet that a lot of schools that charge a low fee and receive a small number of applicants are those that have a strong preference for in-state applicants.

It is interesting that the schools with the highest fees attract the largest number of applications. If applicants were price sensitive, you'd expect fewer applications at the schools with higher application fees. Something else is going on here to drive consumer behavior. I wonder what it is.

 

[alibai3ah]

I bet that a lot of schools that charge a low fee and receive a small number of applicants are those that have a strong preference for in-state applicants.

Yes such as the University of California schools.....those were cheap. Although getting the interview is the hard part 😳