The name needs to be changed NOW

[mbhbrown]

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What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Capulet...Montague....Osteopath....Allopath

Greatness does not care about titles neither do people whom we will be caring for. The best way to be great is to be great no matter what the alphabet soup behind our name says.

 

[Chrisobean]

Originally posted by Shinken

...
If you want people to know what a DO is, stop hiding your degree. It's stupid to say "people don't know what a DO is, so let's change the degree to MD." STUPID.
...
You can quote me on this: THE DAY OSTEOPATHIC PHYSICIANS HAVE THE BALLS AND PRIDE THAT CHIROPRACTORS HAVE IN THEIR PROFESSION IS THE DAY THAT OSTEOPATHIC PHYSICIANS WILL BE KNOWN BY THE PUBLIC.

You guys go ahead and whine about your pitiful, little degree that doesn't have the letters "MD" in it and therefore isn't "legitimate." I'm too busy getting ready to become a physician.

👍 right on

 

[VentdependenT]

Name change will never happen. It won't do jack squat for us anyways...what the hell is so wrong with being a &$king DO.

 

[calcrew14]

Does anyone know how many times Dr. Still and/or his followers have changed their professional name or redirected their course in the practice of medicine? (I guess that it was just once.) Did all those changes have any effect on the way current medicine is practiced today? (I guess not much.) Here at the bottom line, everyone please go vote in the poll. And least it would give us an idea where the majority of this community stand.

Besides, the only people who are holding the short end of this stick is probably those poorly-informed premeds. The poll may be one of a few tools they can use, effectively.

 

[EastCoaster78]

"I don't know why I should feel proud for a history of fighting for so called equal footing with MD's. Because in the eyes of the general public we are not. This is the single purpose of all of these threads right now. Why do I have to carry the weight of public bias? I want to be trained in medicine the way DO's are trained. That is the reason I applied to DO schools in the first place. I didn't sign up for the bias opinions, superiority and ignorance of others. Really, doesn't it suck to have to defend yourself all the time? Doesn't telling people that you ARE really a doctor get old? Why do WE have to keep doing this? It is ridiculous"



if thats how you feel then keep fighting!

 

[STAC]

Originally posted by EastCoaster78
...if thats how you feel then keep fighting!

I am not sure what you are trying to say by 'keep fighting!'

 

[FriendlyDoc]

The DO degree has not been around as long as MD and MD has been recognized as the standard medical degree as long as people can remember.
The way to solve the DO situation is to advertise our profession as much as possible. I don't think changing our name to MD-O will do anything (as other people wisely pointed out). I think as people who are going or in DO schools, we should think about getting more active in lobbying congress and the media for more exposure in the future.

 

[oceandocDO]

Point of clarification.... how many people on this thread are even a medical student?

The politics involved in this discussion run much, much deeper than anyone realizes, especially premedical students or even DO students today.

Believe me, the name isnt changing anytime soon. The only group of people who really care is the premed community. Talk to upperclassmen, residents, attendings, etc.... ask them how often patients, or even colleagues, ask, or even care, what the title after their name is. The only time I've ever seen bias is when a friggin caribbean student asked me if I could write prescriptions as an attending.... he was serious. I asked him for his green card.

If Joe Public who's pumping your gas doesnt know what a DO is, who cares. He also wont know the difference between an opthalmologist and an optomotrist is, or even have the slightest clue what a nephrologist does, or what a hematologist studies...

The above poster is right, the AMA has tried for years to give D.O.s a seat in their House of Delegates. The AOA has continually turned them down b/c osteopathic medicine is NOT a subspecialty of allopathic medicine. The AMA is a dying organization anyway... less than 25% of MDs belong to the AMA these days... whereas almost 60% of D.O.s belong to the AOA. I actually heard at the current rate of decline for the AMA, and rate of growth for the AOA, the AOA will have more members by 2015.... the time when most of the people on this board will be starting their career as attendings.

 

[Maxip]

Secondly, chiropractors are doctors.

Good luck with selling THAT pile of crap.

 

[ny skindoc]

I am an MD and but I would agree with those who have suggested-"embracing" the fact that you are osteopaths.-I know of people in NY who go out of their way to seek out DOs so they can get OMM as an adjunct to their medical treatment.People pay out of pocket for this. Many want to get manipulation from a DO and avoid chiropractors.They are upset when they go to a DO and do not get OMM during their visit.There are DO orthopedic surgeons who are sought after because of their backround. MDs are a dime a dozen,you can pick one up at a caribbean diploma mill.If you need to have your degree more widely recognized all it takes is advertising ie....money.In the current economic environment becoming another MD-wannabe is not the answer..there are plenty of Nurse practitioners and PAs and who knows what out there.Use your unique skills of Osteopathy and dont run from it!- They can offer you a great financial advantages over other practitioners.

 

[DOrk]

How about MD, DO? (As in A.T. Still MD, DO...which is, by the way, the only way I've ever seen him referred to in any AOA publication) I'm surprised nobody has brought this up. Would making this particular change mean divorcing ourselves from our unique history, our would it really be a return to our roots? What are your thoughts?

TK

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by DOrk
How about MD, DO? (As in A.T. Still MD, DO...which is, by the way, the only way I've ever seen him referred to in any AOA publication) I'm surprised nobody has brought this up. Would making this particular change mean divorcing ourselves from our unique history, our would it really be a return to our roots? What are your thoughts?

TK

If thats what AT Still did, then he misrepresented himself. You dont get 2 degrees from a single school, you only get one.

 

[Dr JPH]

Dr. Still never graduated from a school of osteopathy. His degree is honorary due to his "connection" to the osteopathic field.

 

[sophiejane]

Originally posted by MacGyver
If thats what AT Still did, then he misrepresented himself. You dont get 2 degrees from a single school, you only get one.

Before making statements like this, you should educate yourself a bit.(Try www.google.com, for example).

AT Still received an MD degree and was an "MD" his entire professional life. As JP said, he was given an honorary DO because he FOUNDED the school which awarded the new degree.

He broke away from the allopathic school of thought and practice to establish osteopathy as an alternative to his patients, who were not getting better by using the allopathic approach, but who were showing marked improvement with osteopathy.

 

[MacGyver]

So you are arguing that DOs should get honorary MD titles too?

(I think honorary titles are total bull**** anyways, but thats a separate conversation).

Thats a bunch of BS, and not going to happen.

There are 3 ways for DOs to get an MD title:

1) go to MD school

2) go to one of the diploma mill carribbean schools who will "convert" your degree to MD for a fee.

3) Move existing DO schools under the umbrella of the AMA/LCME organizations, and retroactively award all alumni of the DO schools the MD degree. This would effectively destroy the AOA, as they would have no power to accredit DO schools any longer.

Even if you did option #3, you still wouldnt be able to call yourself Jane Doe, DO, MD. You'd have to choose one title or the other.

The bottom line is that if you want an across the board conversion to MD status, you will have to give up power and control over the DO profession. AOA would never, ever support that.

 

[muonwhiz]

When I interviewed at AZCOM a couple of years ago there was a practicing DO as a part of the 3 person panel. When it came time for me to ask questions, I asked her specifically if she thought that the allopathic and osteopathic professions would consolidate. She said yes and her main reason was that with all of the new schools the percentage of the profession composed of more recent graduates would rise and eventually become more than those of more past vintage. She thought that the younger DO's would demand this. It doesn't necessarily mean the end of osteopathy as a profession, because it could be recognized as a specialty like any other under the general ageis of medicine. Also there are a ton of MD's wanting to learn OMM and profitable ventures have been underway with DO's teaching them at medical conferences and on the side. The distinctions between the professions are becoming more blurred all the time so I agree with the DO and think it will eventually happen. I turned down allopathic acceptances to go DO to be able to get the manipulative base but I am not going to be offended if the type of my medical degree changes to MD or stays as DO. It is a hassle explaining to people what a DO is, but if you are a good doctor that is all the explanation your patients will ever need.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by MacGyver
So you are arguing that DOs should get honorary MD titles too?

No idea how you drew this conclusion.
You need to read more carefully.

 

[DOrk]

In the early years, as most of you know, the initials DO stood for Diplomate of Osteopathy. This credential was given to MD's who completed a course of study in osteopathic principles. A.T. Still's original intention was to change the way conventional medicine was practiced rather than to create an entirely separate school of medicine. Still "flung the banner of osteopathy to the breeze" in 1874 because he felt that his philosophy was different, fundamentally, from the philosophy of the allopathic establishment at the time.
Both allopathic and osteopathic medicine have changed tremendously as our knowledge of medical science has evolved. The fundamental differences that were so apparent in 1874 no longer exist. Allopaths no longer poison their patients with snake oil and heavy metals, and osteopaths recognize that OMT alone is not the cure of all ills. Today's physicians be they DO or MD, practice sound, evidence-based medicine, with DO's (and even some MD's) using OMT as adjunctive therapy when it is appropriate. Osteopathy has, in effect, incorporated itself into the allpathic establishment; we have become the MD, DO's that A.T. Still envisioned. Why not change our name to reflect this reality?

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by JPHazelton
No idea how you drew this conclusion.
You need to read more carefully.

🙄

1) Poster above said that DOs should have MD, DO after their name

2) The only way to have MD, DO after your name while attending only one school is to have an honorary degree from the other school.

3) Therefore, anybody who thinks that people should have MD, DO after their names is either ignorant OR they believe that DOs should get honorary MD degrees.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by DOrk
Osteopathy has, in effect, incorporated itself into the allpathic establishment; we have become the MD, DO's that A.T. Still envisioned. Why not change our name to reflect this reality?

You cant just arbitrarily change the name of your degree. The Dept of Education recognizes the AOA as the accreditor/licensor of programs which grant DO degrees. If somebody wants to open a school that grants DO degrees, they HAVE to go thru the AOA. Even if Harvard Medical School (MD program) wnated to offer DO degrees, they could do it ONLY if they come under the umbrella of the AOA.

Likewise, the Dept of Education recognizes the LCME as the accreditor of programs that award the MD degree.

Therefore, in order for DOs across the board to change their degree to MD, the schools which they attended would have to come under the umbrella of the LCME. Those schools would no longer award DOs, they would award MDs (LCME has no authority, under the Dept of Education, to accredit/license schools which give out DO degrees, just as the AOA has no authority regarding MD degrees).

 

[DOrk]

The letters DO in MD, DO would stand for Diplomate of Osteopathy (just like they used to) I'm sorry that I did not make that clear in previous posts. Also, please keep in mind that although only LCME-accredited schools may confer MD degrees, there is no reason why osteopathic schools could not be dually accredited by the AOA and the LCME.

 

[governator]

it's all about money.
why do you think they're implementing the $1500 physical exam portion for comlex level 2?
have we been producing incompetent DOs? no, so why burden loan strapped students with extra $1500 + plane tix + hotel?

if there's no profit for producing a separate degree, would DO still exist today or would we all be MDs?

 

[LeemerDO]

Though the word "Osteo" is connotative of Bones, isn't it actually Latin for "Foundation"? Well when you think about it, that's what bones actually are. When we refer to ourselves as Osteopathic Physicians, we are doctors who want to treat the underlying cause, THE FOUNDATION, of disease. So when you think about it, Osteopathy is a perfect word that serves to define some of the core part of our mission statement, that is to treat the patient from the disease and not just alleviate the symptoms of disease. And the fact that we work with bones and joints, that makes us unique from MDs. We gotta have something to set us apart from just being another doc.

Anyone care to look up the root meaning of ALLOPATHIC, aka what MDs call themselves? My guess is that it may relate to "symptoms of disease."

I'm proud to know that I'm going to be a DO. Kinda like the Marines. We're fewer in number, prouder than ever, have more medical school training (OMT), and if you talk to most people who've encountered DOs, we're more effective in getting the job done.

Loose analogy, but I'll leave it up to all of you to decide.

Have a nice day!

 

[Cowboy DO]

Originally posted by governator
it's all about money.
why do you think they're implementing the $1500 physical exam portion for comlex level 2?
have we been producing incompetent DOs? no, so why burden loan strapped students with extra $1500 + plane tix + hotel?

if there's no profit for producing a separate degree, would DO still exist today or would we all be MDs?

Dude, thats a stupid argument.

You think MD schools dont make money? If they didnt I doubt there would be any MD degree's either. If health care wasnt profitable do you think there would be any doctors, nurses, hospitals, or drug research? nope.

Money drives everything, not just the DO degree.

And actually the PE portion of our education is because of a public out cry. The MD's will be doing the same thing soon. We live in a culture where people are starting to demand more from thier doctors this is the product of that demand. Not some greedy CEO's

 

[pakijiga]

Originally posted by Cowboy DO
Dude, thats a stupid argument.

You think MD schools dont make money? If they didnt I doubt there would be any MD degree's either. If health care wasnt profitable do you think there would be any doctors, nurses, hospitals, or drug research? nope.

not everyone becomes a doctor for the money.. some people actually WANT to make a difference in peoples live..

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by pakijiga
not everyone becomes a doctor for the money.. some people actually WANT to make a difference in peoples live..

He wasn't referring to physicians making money, he was referring to medical schools.

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

Originally posted by MacGyver
So you are arguing that DOs should get honorary MD titles too?

(I think honorary titles are total bull**** anyways, but thats a separate conversation).

Thats a bunch of BS, and not going to happen.

There are 3 ways for DOs to get an MD title:

1) go to MD school

2) go to one of the diploma mill carribbean schools who will "convert" your degree to MD for a fee.

3) Move existing DO schools under the umbrella of the AMA/LCME organizations, and retroactively award all alumni of the DO schools the MD degree. This would effectively destroy the AOA, as they would have no power to accredit DO schools any longer.

Even if you did option #3, you still wouldnt be able to call yourself Jane Doe, DO, MD. You'd have to choose one title or the other.

The bottom line is that if you want an across the board conversion to MD status, you will have to give up power and control over the DO profession. AOA would never, ever support that.

Not that I give a damn about what my degree or title is at the end of school......but I just had to point this out..........

Our school has the power to grant the MD degree. The reason is because the founders of our school were MD's and during the 1950's in IL DO's did not have full practice priviledges. So our school granted an MD to one person and that individual would sign off on every single patient in the osteopathic hospital. He was a very busy man, with very little sleep!

 

[Cowboy DO]

Thanks DrMom.

I realize that there is a very large population of altruistic physicians. However they didnt give themselves their own degree.


P.S. pakijiga - shouldn't we be studying? 🙁

 

[calcrew14]

It is interesting to have this opportunity to look at another aspect of osteopathy. So far I always have a thought that DO's solely reflect everything osteopathic medicine has to offer. Now that medical schools and $ are mentioned together. It makes me wonder which one is the most important factor needed for the excellency/survival of osteopathic medicine, the schools or their students? Who owns these schools and what are their purposes? Is it

1) to continue all the godd traditions of osteopathic medicine?
2) to supply the demand for physicians: DO, MD or both?
3) to supply the demand from those who need back up for their MD school applications?
4) to invest for profit just like any other business?

Are all, old and new, DO schools going to conitnue the same osteopathic philosophy? Mandatory or voluntary?

What if an osteopathic school would want to transform into another similar school such as absolute MD, chiropractic+allopathic or even acupuncture medicine+allopathic..........etc.

What if Northwestern U would take a first step to buy out Touro so that she could have a franchise in New York. She would also have the two medical schools in San Francisco and Las Vegas, right? Now that would be the legit MD vs DO and/or this name change thing, wouldn't it?

 

[premeddo]

This is too bad, seeing all yall people arguing about what osteopathy is whether to have DO or have MD-O or what not!

I think you should just practice medicine because you like it...doesn't matter what the past founders did or said! There has been changes since then. Also who cares about them two letter initials at the end of your name....patients don't! Im not even a medical student yet! But I volunteer and have shadowed a couple of doctors and their patients call me doctor!!!! So this proves that patients can't tell if you are a DO or an MD or a ND or whatever other types of doctors their might be. These times you can't even tell who is an RN,LVN,PA or an MD,DO! They all dress alike. There is not distinctions between them.

Yes, someone mentioned that chiropractors are also doctors, yes they are....aswell as a Ph.D people...but their is only two MEDICAL doctors which are DOs and MDs...so you should be happy you have the oppertunity to change someones life by treating them! Also have the ability to prescribing medicines if you have to which others cannot. To my understanding NDs can prescribe some types of medicine but are limited.
DOs have that extra training in OMM as well as a different approch to treating patients. You should be happy because you studied osteopathic medicine. Yes you do have to explain what a DO is but thats just to your friends and family members and others who might ask. The other 2/3 of the people who don't ask think you are a MEDICAL DOCTOR! And thats it!

So all in all...just study medicine and put all this MD-O s*** to rest! DOs and MDs when asked what they do, they do answer they are medical students. I think someone mentioned this already above. They don't say they study allopathic medicine or they study osteopathic medicine. And people view a doctor as a doctor...what makes them doubt doctors is whether you are a "good" docotor or not. (i.e. care for them, treat them correclty, etc etc.) Not whether they have MD-O after their name.

Another thing...someone mentioned already...if you change DO to MD-O, how many people are going to be asking what is that!!!! You are in the same boat whether you change it or leave it. So why not just leave it as is and cont. with the education of our profession??? DOs are unique in a way of their philosophy so why do you want to associate them with MDs?? If I remeber right Dr. A. T. Still had the option to give his students (DO) the MD initials and he himself said no! He wanted to keep his students from being associated with MDs. So why associate them now????

So basically I said keep DOs as DOs. I personally like to be different...and I don't care how many people I have to explain what my philosophy would be!!!! I enjoy giving them a brief history! And for those of you who are going to say.. "wait til you have people asking you all the time" well...to answer your question...since the day I considered studying medicine...and I researched the areas I have wanted to be a DO and I have been explaining what a DO is to people. And that was before I started with my business degree!! 4yrs ago!

So to all...and work together and don't fuss over two initials after your name!

 

[Cowboy DO]

good post, the MD-O, OMD thing is idiotic. Changing the name just confuses the poeople who already know what a DO is and makes us as a profession look insecure, which is sad. As we have all ready have everything we need, practicing rights, job opportunities, etc. it seems to me that all anyone wants is some acknowledgment, which hardly warrents something as drastic as a name change, which is why:

Yes you do have to explain what a DO is but thats just to your friends and family members and others who might ask. The other 2/3 of the people who don't ask think you are a MEDICAL DOCTOR! And thats it!

is such a problem, if you are a wonderful doctor and they don?t know you are a DO, credit goes to the MD's by default. Make sure when you practice be proud of the D.O., sport it on your white coat and tell everyone you encounter that you are an osteopath. Unless of course you suck as a doctor then please only refer to yourself as Dr.X .

As the rolling stones so eloquently stated: "You can?t always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, well you might find, you get what you need."

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by SM-UCLA tech
Our school has the power to grant the MD degree. The reason is because the founders of our school were MD's and during the 1950's in IL DO's did not have full practice priviledges. So our school granted an MD to one person and that individual would sign off on every single patient in the osteopathic hospital. He was a very busy man, with very little sleep!

Thats not true anymore. That was before the Dept of Education recognized only the LCME as the accreditor of MD granting institutions.

Your school is not accredited by the LCME, so it no longer has any power to grant MDs.

 

[Cowboy DO]

He's right. There was a discussion on this awhile back. At any rate it doesnt matter.

 

[premeddo]

Originally posted by Cowboy DO
is such a problem, if you are a wonderful doctor and they don?t know you are a DO, credit goes to the MD's by default. Make sure when you practice be proud of the D.O., sport it on your white coat and tell everyone you encounter that you are an osteopath. Unless of corse you suck as a doctor then please only refer to yourself as Dr.X .

thats right! just refer to yourself as a Dr. if you suck! 🙂

BTW Cowboy I totally agree with you.