The new FSU?

[tofurious]

This is what has been going around the faculty at Florida State...

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Obedeli]

I have heard about this. Is this TRUE? A university based chiropractor school WITH a medical school.

I have also heard there are faculty threatning to leave if this truly materializes.

Naturally it should be located near a law school so they can find their partners for kickbacks.

 

[dcpark74]

I have heard about this. Is this TRUE? A university based chiropractor school WITH a medical school.

I have also heard there are faculty threatning to leave if this truly materializes.

Naturally it should be located near a law school so they can find their partners for kickbacks.

Unfortunately, it is true. (side note: interesting that in 1990, ama was found guilty of conspiring to destroy the chiropractic 'profession.')

 

[BackTalk]

Its funny how everyone is opposed to this yet continues say chiropractic is unscientific, the education is substandard, and the research is a joke blah blah blah. Well here is an opportunity for chiropractic to be cleaned up yet so many are against it. Really, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid chiropractic might earn the respect it deserves?

 

[lesstalkmorock]

Its funny how everyone is opposed to this yet continues say chiropractic is unscientific, the education is substandard, and the research is a joke blah blah blah. Well here is an opportunity for chiropractic to be cleaned up yet so many are against it. Really, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid chiropractic might earn the respect it deserves?

Not at all. What everybody at FSU IS terrified of is that this chiropractic school will demolish any outside chance they have at academic credibility. Kiss that prospective AAU membership goodbye FSU, and good luck getting your startup medical school accreditation when they are sharing a budget with chiropractic. It's true - their medical school is not even fully accredited yet.

Believe me, EVERYBODY at FSU is against this school -- the faculty, students, and administration. Just read some local news articles and you will see what a fiasco this thing is.

 

[dcpark74]

Its funny how everyone is opposed to this yet continues say chiropractic is unscientific, the education is substandard, and the research is a joke blah blah blah. Well here is an opportunity for chiropractic to be cleaned up yet so many are against it. Really, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid chiropractic might earn the respect it deserves?

education is substandard...it is unscientific (why the hell would 2 nobel laureates oppose this idea along with faculty?) Do we really need to discuss something that is already known to many? (Question for you...ummm...when was the last time a chiropractor published in Nature or Science?)

you sound ignorant.

 

[lesstalkmorock]

 

[Obedeli]

I can certainly see where this thread is heading and I don't deny I think most of chiropractic medicine is bunk. I feel it has its place with certain patients (my mother in law, fibromyalgia, or poor car accident patients looking for a lottery win).
Keep in mind the historical perspective on chiropractic medicine. Prior to WWII, chiropractors were not mainstream and seen as the loony fringe. After WWII, veterans leaving the service with the GI Bill found chiropractor schools opened up by the 100s, ready to take advantage of these fully funded potential students. According to the historian Samuel Eliot Morrison (official historian for the US Navy during WWII), this was the worst unintended consequence of the GI Bill. With new schools opened throughout the county, the general public became less skeptical and chiropractors soon found their niche (and telephone book advertising).
The history now goes on to somehow include FSU

 

[Obedeli]

Its funny how everyone is opposed to this yet continues say chiropractic is unscientific, the education is substandard, and the research is a joke blah blah blah. Well here is an opportunity for chiropractic to be cleaned up yet so many are against it. Really, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid chiropractic might earn the respect it deserves?

Spare me the "what are you afraid of" routine. I am not "afraid." Of course, a vertebral artery dissection might be something to fear.

 

[moo]

Its funny how everyone is opposed to this yet continues say chiropractic is unscientific, the education is substandard, and the research is a joke blah blah blah. Well here is an opportunity for chiropractic to be cleaned up yet so many are against it. Really, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid chiropractic might earn the respect it deserves?

Afraid? If the medical establishment were afraid of competition, podiatrists, physical therapists, osteopathic physicians, optometrists, etc. wouldn't exist as they do today. The medical establishment looks out for the health of this country, and each of the professions above has proved themselves to be valid and know their limitations (except for DOs which are pretty much MDs). The problem with chiro is that there are schools that teach this fake subluxation theory and others that are actually pretty decent. It's too bad the few bad apples ruins it for everyone.

 

[Mediculous]

This is what has been going around the faculty at Florida State...

Say what you will, but their Phrenology department is supposedly top-notch. Their Wicca insitution is pretty malignant, though, ever since their Voodoo guy left for Hogwart's.

 

[Obedeli]

*some day in the future*

" I got my W.D. from FSU."


(Witch Doctor)

 

[MacGyver]

Ahh yes the quack chiros have surfaced again.

BackTalk,

It is NOT the role of a university to single handedly prove or disprove a scientific field. Thats not how academics works. What happens is that researchers in a related established field do the legwork and then when that research reaches sufficient mass, a separate department/school is created. Hence, electrical engineering departments emerge from physics researchers. Computer science departments emerged from mathematics departments.

What you are talking about is a "conclusion in search of evidence." You are putting the cart before the horse, suggesting that a new academic unit has to be established to validate/clean up an already established "profession" in which I use that term VERY loosely.

Its a waste of taxpayer money. Remember this is NOT FSU's idea. It was pushed on FSU by politicians and their alliances with chiropractic lobbyists. The only reason it got this far was because the president of FSU (TK Wetherell) understands NOTHING about academics and is in fact a politico type himself. He doesnt know what academic integrity is, he's only interested in raising money for the school.

The politicians knew this and THATS why FSU was chosen to begin wtih. They'd much rather have a flagship school like University of Florida but they KNEW BEFOREHAND that the leaders at UF would have nothing to do with such nonsense. So they look at FSU and notice that TK wetherell runs the show and take advantage of his ignorance in academic affairs to push this porkbarrel project down FSU's throat. Of course, they threaten TK that the legislature will cut FSU's overall funding if the chiro school isnt approved.

This whole thing stinks of backroom deals and political pressure. Its the FACULTY'S job to suggest new schools, departments, and programs. What we have at FSU is POLITICIANS usurping this role and trying to force their will on academia.

The only reason Jeb Bush signed the chiro bill to begin with is because Jim King (part of the chiro alliance) was Senate leader and threatened to block Bush's other legislative priorities (such as the state budget) unless he signed the chiro bill. Jeb made a practical political decision and signed it, but trust me it had nothing to with declaring the chiro program as a legit need by the state.

 

[MacGyver]

Even if you think that chiro is a legit field, there is still no need for a public chiro school in florida.

Florida already has higher than the national average of chiros per capita. There is zero evidence that peole in florida cant find a chiro.

Looking nationwide, you'll find that chiros have the LARGEST STUDENT LOAN DEFAULT RATE of any group.

What that means is the chiropractic market is saturated. New chiro grads cant establish successful practices because of the glut of chiros already on the market. Therefore they default on their loans.

Its not like chiro students dont know business skills either. Most chiro schools have REQUIRED COURSES in marketing, entrepreneurship, and practice building classes. Med schools dont require any of that stuff. Yet in spite of that extra business training, chiro students still have a great deal of trouble in establishing successful practices.

The glut of chiros encourages quackery. Not only do most chiro schools TEACH QUACKERY IN THEIR CURRICULUM, new chiro grads often have no choice but to jump into the quack pond because otherwise they cant make enough money to survive.

BackTalk if you want to improve chiro, tell the national accreditation organizations to start clamping down and closing all these fraud chiro schools. Tell the accred agency to adopt a nationwide curriculum that includes ONLY SCIENCE AND EVIDENCE BASED ideas. Tell them to junk this whole "subluxation theory is the root of all disease" quackery that 95% of chiro schools teach. Tell them to junk this crap about how chiros are "replacement" doctors for MDs that somehow think they can treat HTN, cancer, diabetes, infertility, etc. That would make FAR MORE DIFFERENCE than one chiro school at florida state univ

 

[BackTalk]

Even if you think that chiro is a legit field, there is still no need for a public chiro school in florida.

Florida already has higher than the national average of chiros per capita. There is zero evidence that peole in florida cant find a chiro.

Looking nationwide, you'll find that chiros have the LARGEST STUDENT LOAN DEFAULT RATE of any group.

What that means is the chiropractic market is saturated. New chiro grads cant establish successful practices because of the glut of chiros already on the market. Therefore they default on their loans.

Its not like chiro students dont know business skills either. Most chiro schools have REQUIRED COURSES in marketing, entrepreneurship, and practice building classes. Med schools dont require any of that stuff. Yet in spite of that extra business training, chiro students still have a great deal of trouble in establishing successful practices.

The glut of chiros encourages quackery. Not only do most chiro schools TEACH QUACKERY IN THEIR CURRICULUM, new chiro grads often have no choice but to jump into the quack pond because otherwise they cant make enough money to survive.

BackTalk if you want to improve chiro, tell the national accreditation organizations to start clamping down and closing all these fraud chiro schools. Tell the accred agency to adopt a nationwide curriculum that includes ONLY SCIENCE AND EVIDENCE BASED ideas. Tell them to junk this whole "subluxation theory is the root of all disease" quackery that 95% of chiro schools teach. Tell them to junk this crap about how chiros are "replacement" doctors for MDs that somehow think they can treat HTN, cancer, diabetes, infertility, etc. That would make FAR MORE DIFFERENCE than one chiro school at florida state univ

Looking nationwide, you'll find that chiros have the LARGEST STUDENT LOAN DEFAULT RATE of any group.

I agree.

What that means is the chiropractic market is saturated. New chiro grads cant establish successful practices because of the glut of chiros already on the market. Therefore they default on their loans.

When only 10-20 percent of the population utilizes chiropractic services, you're right; the market has hit the saturation limit. When you get out of chiropractic school, you are on your own. That is, you are self employed. Like any business, it's hard to get started. Some chiropractors are great doctors but have no business skills and end up failing. We don't have the privilege of the local hospital helping us get started by paying are overhead, or by funneling patients from the ER to our offices.

Its not like chiro students dont know business skills either. Most chiro schools have REQUIRED COURSES in marketing, entrepreneurship, and practice building classes. Med schools dont require any of that stuff.

Really? Where did you read that? When I went to school we had one business course and it included things on how to do a loan proposal, different types of leases etc. It had nothing to do with practice management or anything like that. Actually, it was worthless. Maybe today things have changed and they include more of that in the curriculum. If they do that's great! I wish I had course like that when I was in school. Medical schools don't teach those courses because it isn't needed.

Yet in spite of that extra business training, chiro students still have a great deal of trouble in establishing successful practices.

I agree.

The glut of chiros encourages quackery.

Some do. Like you said, they will say anything to get patients in the door. It's a shame.

Not only do most chiro schools TEACH QUACKERY IN THEIR CURRICULUM

This isn't entirely true. Most schools don't.

BackTalk if you want to improve chiro, tell the national accreditation organizations to start clamping down and closing all these fraud chiro schools. Tell the accred agency to adopt a nationwide curriculum that includes ONLY SCIENCE AND EVIDENCE BASED ideas. Tell them to junk this whole "subluxation theory is the root of all disease" quackery that 95% of chiro schools teach.

Now that's what I'm talking about, which is easier said than done. Most schools do not teach "subluxations are the route of all disease" and do teach science and evidence based ideas.

Tell them to junk this crap about how chiros are "replacement" doctors for MDs that somehow think they can treat HTN, cancer, diabetes, infertility, etc. That would make FAR MORE DIFFERENCE than one chiro school at florida state univ

First off, they are not teaching chiropractors to be replacements for MD's. Secondly, they do not teach courses on how spinal manipulation can treat HTN, cancer or diabetes. As far as Infertility goes, I have heard some DC's getting results when they screw their patients. Other than that, I don't know much about it.

 

[BackTalk]

Florida already has higher than the national average of chiros per capita. There is zero evidence that peole in florida cant find a chiro.

February, 2000 - BOR and PSEPC present A Study of the Need For and Feasibility of a Chiropractic College at FSU to the Florida Legislature and to the Governor. The report
clearly demonstrates the need for such a college in the state, finding that in excess of 700-900 students are forced to leave Florida each year to pursue a chiropractic education. Additionally, the study reveals that minority access is severely limited to the chiropractic profession as a result of the inordinately high cost of a professional education at private facilities outside the state.

Chiropractic facts
http://www.fcachiro.org/media/MGT_January05.pdf

 

[Fantasy Sports]

February, 2000 - BOR and PSEPC present A Study of the Need For and Feasibility of a Chiropractic College at FSU to the Florida Legislature and to the Governor. The report
clearly demonstrates the need for such a college in the state, finding that in excess of 700-900 students are forced to leave Florida each year to pursue a chiropractic education. Additionally, the study reveals that minority access is severely limited to the chiropractic profession as a result of the inordinately high cost of a professional education at private facilities outside the state.

Chiropractic facts
http://www.fcachiro.org/media/MGT_January05.pdf

That's (let me see if I do this calculation right, carry the 7...) 700-900 less money-grubbing pseudomedical quacks per year in Florida!

 

[BackTalk]

That's (let me see if I do this calculation right, carry the 7...) 700-900 less money-grubbing pseudomedical quacks per year in Florida!

No that’s 700-900 less students going to a Florida school and less tuition dollars and thus less dollars for the state of Florida. Students from Florida will more than likely return to Florida to their hometowns once they earn their DC degree elsewhere. So that’s 700-900 chiropractors that will be back in Florida practicing. Use a calculator next time chief.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Students from Florida will more than likely return to Florida to their hometowns once they earn their DC degree elsewhere. So that’s 700-900 chiropractors that will be back in Florida practicing.

That's funny because a couple posts up you said:

"Additionally, the study reveals that minority access is severely limited to the chiropractic profession as a result of the inordinately high cost of a professional education at private facilities outside the state.

Chiropractic facts
http://www.fcachiro.org/media/MGT_January05.pdf"

So if they're all going to come back after being educated elsewhere, why even bother building a school? The minorities in need of care will be taken care of by the newly minted chiropractors trained in wherever but who all ended up coming home according to you...

 

[rooster]

Chiropractic is thriving in spite of demagoguery

By Lance Armstrong

Tallahassee Democrat reporter Melanie Yeager's attempt to draw attention to the efforts of Raymond Bellamy, a Tallahassee orthopedic surgeon scheming to derail the new chiropractic college at Florida State University, carried an unfortunate headline. It more correctly should have been headlined: "Question of demagoguery."

Bellamy is a longtime and shrill foe of chiropractic, and he is clearly spewing his demagoguery in what is perhaps best characterized as a desperate personal crusade. To provide a dais from which to deliver his brand of outdated professional bigotry is an insult to the thoughtfulness of Democrat readers.

Chiropractic, the fastest-growing of all the major healing arts professions, is licensed and regulated in all 50 states, covered by major health care plans and included in federal government programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and the Veterans Administration. This is certainly not the kind of environment known for welcoming professionals trained in "pseudoscience" based on "gobbledygook."

Contrary to what Bellamy would like readers to believe, a growing body of scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports the efficacy, cost-effectiveness and safety of chiropractic care.

In fact, a summary of no less than 73 clinical trials involving spinal manipulation published just recently in the Annals of Internal Medicine published by the American College of Physicians - the nation's largest medical specialty professional society - attests to the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment in managing back pain with none of the trials having produced negative results.

Equally troubling is Bellamy's suggestion as to the "dangers" of chiropractic manipulation. While there is certainly some degree of risk involved in any procedure, chiropractic care offers patients significantly less risk in the treatment of cervical and back conditions and injuries than more "traditional" medical treatments that employ surgery and the use of prescription drugs.

Bellamy's concerns are ironic in light of a recent article in The Journal of the American Medical Association stating that medical care is the third leading cause of death in the U.S., causing 250,000 deaths every year, including 12,000 unnecessary surgeries, 7,000 medication errors in hospitals, 20,000 other errors in hospitals, 80,000 infections in hospitals and 106,000 deaths from non-error, negative side effects of drugs.

Perhaps what these critics fear most - and what motivates this specious 12th-hour attack - is that as chiropractic education and research continues to evolve and prosper, not only at FSU but also at other public universities around the world, it will offer patients the ability to make more informed decisions about their health care. At that point, it is entirely possible their first choice may not be traditional medical treatment.

 

[rooster]

http://www.fcachiro.org/media.asp


The Chiropractic Program at FSU
January 7th, 2005

"...The medical community is not against Chiropractic as just a few would have you believe. Most modern medical doctors see chiropractic as a valuable health profession. Many work together and alongside
chiropractors in a variety of settings, including clinical care and in scientific research and publication..."




Chiropractic Information by MGT of America
January 6th, 2005
Excerpts:

"...Multiple research studies have shown that, on the average, Chiropractic care is as effective or more effective, costs less and is safer (where safety is measured in terms of permanent disability or death from the treatment) than pharmaceutical and surgery treatment for lower back pain..."

"...Currently, more than 120 million Americans are using some form of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM). In 1997, Americans spend over $30 billion per year on CAM therapies outside of traditional medical systems..."

"...The dominant reasons that Americans seek Chiropractic care is for lower back pain. Research has found that 84% of Americans experience acute and chronic lower back pain at some time during their life. (Walker, 2000)..."

"...A national survey in 1996 found that elder patients who used chiropractic care were less likely to use nursing home or hospital services, and used fewer prescription drugs, but more over-the-counter..."

"...NIH researchers have found that nearly 40% of chiropractic users had determined that conventional medical treatment would not help..."




Chronology of Events Leading to the Creation of the Chiropractic Program at Florida State University
January 6th, 2005

"...April, 1999 - Florida’s Legislature directs in proviso of the General Appropriations Act for FY 1999-2000 in specific appropriation 189-192 that Florida’s Board of Regents and the Post Secondary Education Planning Commission conduct an exhaustive study on the need for public chiropractic education in Florida...."


Implementation Plan for a School of Chiropractic Education at Florida State University
December 20th, 2000

"...During the 2000 session, the Florida Legislature considered the findings of a report studying the need for and feasibility of a school of chiropractic education at Florida State University (FSU). This legislatively mandated report was conducted by the State University System's Board of Regents and the Florida Department of Education's Postsecondary Education Planning Commission. The Legislature responded to the report by directing FSU to develop an implementation plan for the establishment of a school of chiropractic education at FSU...."




Wilk v. AMA Case Comes To An End-Court Order, Statements Published As Part Of Agreement
January 13th, 1992

"...The Material on these two facing pages is being published in compliance with a court agreement reached in the Wilk v. AMA case..."




AMA Found Guilty of Conspiracy: Critical Quotes from the Appeals Court Decision
February 7th, 1990


"...THE AMA HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF AN ILLEGAL CONSPIRACY TO DESTROY THE COMPETITIVE PROFESSION OF CHIROPRACTIC. THE MEMBERS OF WHICH WERE FOUND TO "OUTPERFORM" MEDICAL PHYSICIANS IN CERTAIN SEGMENTS OF THE HEALTH CARE MARKET. THE QUOTATIONS HEREIN ARE FROM THE OPINION OF THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT WHICH WAS ISSUED ON FEBRUARY 7,1990..."




AMA Found Guilty of Conspiracy: Full Text of the U.S. Court of Appeals Decision
February 7th, 1990

"...Appeal from the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division. No. 76 C 3777--Susan Getzendanner, Judge.
Argued December 1, 1988--Decided February 7, 1990..."

 

[tofurious]

Quick, somebody find one article that says voodoo medicine is better than chiropractice, and that will UNDOUBTEDLY PROVE that voodoo medicine is better than chiropractice. Then FSU will *HAVE TO* start a voodoo medicine college, since it must be true. (And I do believe that voodoo medicine has a longer history/tradition in the Florida area than chiropractice)

(My credibility: I am one of those CAM users - I take my one multivitamin tablet a day! It's not even a Flintstone!)

 

[MedNole]

No that’s 700-900 less students going to a Florida school and less tuition dollars and thus less dollars for the state of Florida.

LOL, so you think that the state of Florida would actually MAKE money from a new chiropractic school by collecting tuition??? You're joking, right? The school will cost the state more than $9 million per year, plus $60 million for a new "Life Sciences" building. The state SUBSIDIZES education, it does not PROFIT off of it. Also, find somewhere in the MGT report that says Florida needs more chiropractors. You can look all day, but it's not in there. While it is true that some Florida students leave the state to go to chiro school, there is NO need for more chiropractors in the state. If there's no need for more chiropractors, then why should we waste our tax dollars on a school? Also, Palmer College opened a campus in Port Orange last year, which should eliminate the need for any Floridians leaving the state to pursue chiropractic education.

 

[rooster]

http://www.c3r.org/Research.htm


The NIH/NCCAM Center grant supports 19 research projects.

Please click on a Principal Investigator's name to view the original project abstract and a project update.

Gert Bronfort, DC, PhD
Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Care
A Pilot Study of Conservative Therapies for Sciatica
Conservative Treatments for Neck Pain: A Pilot Study

Lisa A. Caputo, DC
Changes in Health Measures in HIV+ Chiropractic Patients


Donald Dishman, DC, MSc
Spinal Manipulation and Motor Systems Physiology

Roni Evans, DC
Patient Expectations of Treatment

Anita Ruth Gross, MSc, BScPT, Grad. Dip. Manip. Ther.
Conservative Management for Neck Disorders: A Series of Cochrane Reviews

Mitchell Haas, DC
Dose-Response in Chiropractic Care for LBP
Clinical Utility of Cervical End-Play Assessment

Cheryl K. Hawk, DC, PhD
Evaluation of a Chiropractic Manual Placebo
Multisite Pilot of Chiropractic for Chronic Pelvic Pain

Stephen H. Injeyan, DC, PhD
Studies on Effects of Spinal Manipulation on the Immune Response

Partap S. Khalsa, DC, PhD
Facet Joint Capsule Strains during Spinal Manipulation
Facet Capsule Biomechanics from Physiological Spinal Motion

Steven J. Kirstukas, PhD
Load Distribution during Bilateral Manipulation

William C. Meeker, DC, MPH
Chiropractic Best Practices for Chronic Low Back Pain

Joel G. Pickar, DC, PhD
Changes in Paraspinal Muscle Spindle Sensitivity
Effect of Vertebral Loading on Sympathetic Nerve Regulation.

Veronica M. Sciotti, Ph.D.
Trigger Point Metabolic and Microcirculatory Imbalances

Esther Suter, PhD
Changes in Muscle Excitability after Spinal Manipulation


The NIH/NCCAM Center grant supports 19 research projects.

Please click on a Principal Investigator's name to view the original project abstract and a project update.

Gert Bronfort, DC, PhD
Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Care
A Pilot Study of Conservative Therapies for Sciatica
Conservative Treatments for Neck Pain: A Pilot Study

Lisa A. Caputo, DC
Changes in Health Measures in HIV+ Chiropractic Patients


Donald Dishman, DC, MSc
Spinal Manipulation and Motor Systems Physiology

Roni Evans, DC
Patient Expectations of Treatment

Anita Ruth Gross, MSc, BScPT, Grad. Dip. Manip. Ther.
Conservative Management for Neck Disorders: A Series of Cochrane Reviews

Mitchell Haas, DC
Dose-Response in Chiropractic Care for LBP
Clinical Utility of Cervical End-Play Assessment

Cheryl K. Hawk, DC, PhD
Evaluation of a Chiropractic Manual Placebo
Multisite Pilot of Chiropractic for Chronic Pelvic Pain

Stephen H. Injeyan, DC, PhD
Studies on Effects of Spinal Manipulation on the Immune Response

Partap S. Khalsa, DC, PhD
Facet Joint Capsule Strains during Spinal Manipulation
Facet Capsule Biomechanics from Physiological Spinal Motion

Steven J. Kirstukas, PhD
Load Distribution during Bilateral Manipulation

William C. Meeker, DC, MPH
Chiropractic Best Practices for Chronic Low Back Pain

Joel G. Pickar, DC, PhD
Changes in Paraspinal Muscle Spindle Sensitivity
Effect of Vertebral Loading on Sympathetic Nerve Regulation.

Veronica M. Sciotti, Ph.D.
Trigger Point Metabolic and Microcirculatory Imbalances

Esther Suter, PhD
Changes in Muscle Excitability after Spinal Manipulation


The NIH/NCCAM Center grant supports 19 research projects.

Please click on a Principal Investigator's name to view the original project abstract and a project update.

Gert Bronfort, DC, PhD
Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Care
A Pilot Study of Conservative Therapies for Sciatica
Conservative Treatments for Neck Pain: A Pilot Study

Lisa A. Caputo, DC
Changes in Health Measures in HIV+ Chiropractic Patients


Donald Dishman, DC, MSc
Spinal Manipulation and Motor Systems Physiology

Roni Evans, DC
Patient Expectations of Treatment

Anita Ruth Gross, MSc, BScPT, Grad. Dip. Manip. Ther.
Conservative Management for Neck Disorders: A Series of Cochrane Reviews

Mitchell Haas, DC
Dose-Response in Chiropractic Care for LBP
Clinical Utility of Cervical End-Play Assessment

Cheryl K. Hawk, DC, PhD
Evaluation of a Chiropractic Manual Placebo
Multisite Pilot of Chiropractic for Chronic Pelvic Pain

Stephen H. Injeyan, DC, PhD
Studies on Effects of Spinal Manipulation on the Immune Response

Partap S. Khalsa, DC, PhD
Facet Joint Capsule Strains during Spinal Manipulation
Facet Capsule Biomechanics from Physiological Spinal Motion

Steven J. Kirstukas, PhD
Load Distribution during Bilateral Manipulation

William C. Meeker, DC, MPH
Chiropractic Best Practices for Chronic Low Back Pain

Joel G. Pickar, DC, PhD
Changes in Paraspinal Muscle Spindle Sensitivity
Effect of Vertebral Loading on Sympathetic Nerve Regulation.

Veronica M. Sciotti, Ph.D.
Trigger Point Metabolic and Microcirculatory Imbalances

Esther Suter, PhD
Changes in Muscle Excitability after Spinal Manipulation

 

[BackTalk]

That's 700-900 more students living in Florida that would have left. Students, who eat out, rent apartments, buy school supplies, by gas for their cars and drink lots of liquor on the weekends. That's a weak comeback I must admit, But hey, it still brings in revenue for Florida.

I really don't care if Florida can use a chiropractic school or not. I really don't care if its affiliated with a medical school either. I do care that its part of a university system were chiropractic credits will be acceptable at other universities if a student decides to change careers.

This is nothing new. Chiropractors have been fighting for a school of this kind in Florida since 1995. Each year they have made a little progress and 10 years later it's on the books.

 

[MedNole]

That's 700-900 more students living in Florida that would have left. Students, who eat out, rent apartments, buy school supplies, by gas for their cars and drink lots of liquor on the weekends. That's a weak comeback I must admit, But hey, it still brings in revenue for Florida.

I really don't care if Florida can use a chiropractic school or not. I really don't care if its affiliated with a medical school either. I do care that its part of a university system were chiropractic credits will be acceptable at other universities if a student decides to change careers.

This is nothing new. Chiropractors have been fighting for a school of this kind in Florida since 1995. Each year they have made a little progress and 10 years later it's on the books.

It doesn't "bring revenue to Florida," because you are spending a LOT more than you are bringning in. Therefore, you have to justify the $9+ million price tag, and there is NO JUSTIFICATION for the school if there is no NEED for more chiropractors.

It may be "on the books" for the moment, but it will likely be killed at the Board of Governors meeting next week.

 

[AwesomeO-DO]

If instead a new School of Osteopathy was the proposed addition to FSU, would there be the same skepticism? There is already a MD/DO program at Michigan State U.

 

[BackTalk]

It doesn't "bring revenue to Florida," because you are spending a LOT more than you are bringning in. Therefore, you have to justify the $9+ million price tag, and there is NO JUSTIFICATION for the school if there is no NEED for more chiropractors.

It may be "on the books" for the moment, but it will likely be killed at the Board of Governors meeting next week.

From what I understand the 9 million price tag had been cut to $1.75. I would probably give you more respect if you just came out and said you hate chiropractors rather than making it a money issue. IMO, I think you wouldn't say boo if this was a new medical school going up.

 

[rooster]

Additionally, Mednole apparently ignored my post above outlining the 19 current NIH/NCCAM funded research projects(translation: $$$).

 

[rooster]

From what I understand the 9 million price tag had been cut to $1.75. I would probably give you more respect if you just came out and said you hate chiropractors rather than making it a money issue. IMO, I think you wouldn't say boo if this was a new medical school going up.

Or millions for football or 17 million they just spent on a new dance hall. Give me a break. Yes- it would be more respectable and honest to just say he hated chiropractic. But that would only be a belief. Apparently, mednole feels a need to fabricate false justifications for that belief.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

From what I understand the 9 million price tag had been cut to $1.75. I would probably give you more respect if you just came out and said you hate chiropractors rather than making it a money issue. IMO, I think you wouldn't say boo if this was a new medical school going up.

You're not even pretending to answer the arguments anymore.

First you say that not having a school will cause the "underserved" to lose access to chiropractors in Florida. Then you say all the students from Florida will go out of state and then come back anyway.

Now you say the school will make money for the state, but then when you look at it, the economic impact figures for chiropractors are nothing compared to that of increased funding to a medical school. And when that argument is made, you make a knee-jerk emotional reply.

You can have your chiro school, just keep it completely away from the medical school. The faculty should be deciding what departments and schools are started up, not the legislature. As heinous as actually having a chiro school next to an MD school is, what's worse is that this is being IMPOSED by biased government officials (ie former chiropractors) who know doubt will profit handsomely from this arrangement (more donations?).

This might be the way things work in the chiro world, but academia is a different animal.

 

[MedNole]

From what I understand the 9 million price tag had been cut to $1.75. I would probably give you more respect if you just came out and said you hate chiropractors rather than making it a money issue. IMO, I think you wouldn't say boo if this was a new medical school going up.

LOL, I love how you assume that I hate chiropractors just becuase I don't think they should start a chiro school at FSU. I've used a chiropractor personally many times in the past with EXCELLENT results for back pain, and I will continue to use one in the future. I will not hesitate referring patients to chiropractors as well for musculoskeletal conditions and back pain....so your assumptions about me are completely false.

True, the governor released his budget this week and cut the chiropractic program from $9 million annually to $1.75 million. However, the senate likely will not go along for this. Also, this is only for the planning phase. Once the school becomes operational, it will cost roughly $9 million in state funding annually. (The $9 million/year that was originally allocated could be used by FSU to spend on whatever they wanted to until the chiro school was up and running. This was part of the deal to "sweeten the pot" so that the FSU administration would go along with the legislature.) I think the money could be spent better elsewhere, especially since higher education in Florida has seen its budget cut significantly since 2001. In addition, tuition at all Florida schools has increased substantially the past three years. Florida is cutting all sorts of programs, so I don't understand adding a chiropractic program when there is no documented NEED for more chiropractors.

Futhermore, FSU has the newest medical school in the country, and it is fighting to earn a reputation among the other schools in the state. Regardless of what I think about the chiropractic profession, academics don't have a whole lot of respect for it. Why else would 500 FSU professors (including 2 Nobel laureates) sign a petition opposing the school? Maybe they are being close-minded, but this will definitely have an impact on FSU's reputation in the academic community. Why put a school at FSU, where the new medical school is just getting off the ground? Why not put it at another school that has a well-established medical school (or no medical school at all)?

As for research money coming in, chiropractic research really isn't very lucrative at all. If it were lucrative, why wouldn't any other school in the country jump at the opportunity to start their own chiropractic program? Why would the legislature have to FORCE a chiropractic school on FSU if the research dollars are so lucrative?

 

[Obedeli]

Backtalk
You can't deny history.
" An act of congress known as the G.I. Bill of Rights in 1944 offered full scholarships in colleges or universities or trade schools with subsistence for a maximum of 4 years. . . . There was, of course, a great deal of waste in the scheme - chiropractor academies and sundry degree mills were hurriedly organized to get G.I. dollars - but on the whole, it was a success."
Samuel Eliot Morison - An Oxford History of the American People

Not much has changed in 60 years. Medicaid and medicare waste millions on chiropractors.

 

[rooster]

Mednole-
I find it bewildering, that you are so gullible and so easily influenced, as to fall for the rantings of a handful(Bellamy et al) of old school, out of touch, personal agenda motivated, rantings. Bellamy and cronies are intentionally broadcasting misleading and outright ficticious "soundbytes" to stir up a frenzy. Do not be misled!
The facts are:
http://www.mgtamer.com/core.cfm?type=6&id=708&IsDetail=1

Implementation Plan for a School of Chiropractic Education at Florida State University

During the 2000 session, the Florida Legislature considered the findings of a report studying the need for and feasibility of a school of chiropractic education at Florida State University (FSU). This legislatively mandated report was conducted by the State University System's Board of Regents and the Florida Department of Education's Postsecondary Education Planning Commission. The Legislature responded to the report by directing FSU to develop an implementation plan for the establishment of a school of chiropractic education at FSU.

FSU contracted with MGT of America, Inc., to assist in developing the implementation plan for chiropractic education. The project involved consideration of potential missions, recruitment and enrollment practices, the curriculum and clinical training experiences, staffing and organizational arrangements, and facilities and resources required. Eight reports were prepared to meet the legislative mandate:

The Chiropractic Profession and Its Research and Education Programs

Model Chiropractic Education Programs

Alternatives for Chiropractic Clinical Training at Florida State University

Programs and Strategies to Recruit Minorities in Chiropractic Education

Best Models for Preparing Chiropractors for Providing Health Care to Seniors and Underserved Populations

Facilities Needs for a Chiropractic School at Florida State University

Costs of Chiropractic Education

Implementation Plan for a School of Chiropractic Education at Florida State University

The facts are:
-This is NOT a "hurry up in the middle of the night" endeavor.(See above)
- Contrary to what Bellamy would like everyone to believe- This has been a six year process.(See above)
- Again- Contrary to Bellamy's misinformation- The DC school would NOT be part of the medical school. Rather, a dept in the Integrated Health Sciences Dept.(See above)
-Any consideration of accreditation of the medical school HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHIROPRACTIC DEPT. IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COLLEGE. The proposed DC program is in the college of integrated health sciences. The medical school has to gain accreditation on it's own merits. Plain and simple. It has NOTHING to do with a chiropractic program, dance program or circus program. To try to tie the two together, is just another one of Bellamy's angles. He will assume people will just take his word for it, and not do their own investigation of the FACTS.

After review of the above link/facts/truth- I feel confident that, using your critical thinking skills, you will now see the fallacy of Bellamy and his handful of vocal drones are being dihonest with you and the public at large.

What a shame that patient care has to be, subjected to and dependent on, the egos of a few antiquated albatrosses.

 

[MedNole]

Your above post didn't address ANY of the arguments I made above against the school, so I'll try again.
1. There is no need for more chiropractors in Florida, per the MGT report that you cite above.
2. Why should a chiropractic program be added when many existing programs are being cut, and tuition has been drastically increased?
3. The overwhelming majority of faculty at FSU do not want the school, and think that it will seriously hurt the reputation of FSU.
4. If chiropractic research is so profitable, then why isn't any other university trying to open a chiropractic college? If it were lucrative, wouldn't every university in the country want to open a chiropractic school?
5. Clearly, a chiropractic school will cost more money from the state than it will bring in. Therefore, how do you justify to Florida taxpayer's the benefit of spending public money on a chiropractic school?
6. You claim that I "hate chiropractic," which is COMPLETELY INACCURATE as outlined in my previous post. Care to apologize?

As for the one argument you sort of addressed about the medical school, you say that the two schools will be completely seperate. While this may be true for the moment, that doesn't mean that the two schools won't be associated. Every other university that has a CAM department puts it under their college of medicine. Why should a college of chiropractic be any different? It's a common belief at FSU that if the chiropractic school gets up and running and the controversy behind it dies down, the two schools will be associated. This would be a disaster for the reputation of the COM. Like I said, this loss of reputation may or may not be warranted, but it's a fact that it will occur. Even if the two school's are not associated, the reputation of FSU will suffer. For whatever reason, most academics do not respect the study of chiropractic. This hurts the College of Medicine in terms of reputation, recruiting competitive students, and obtaining competitive externships and residencies. In addition, over a dozen faculty members have said they will resign if the chiro school is established. You can argue that they are being unreasonable, and to a certain extent I would agree with you. However, whether or not they are being unreasonable is irrelevant, because the reputation of the College of Medicine and FSU as a whole is still compromised. In effect, all that people know about FSU is the chiropractic school controversy. The chiro school has overshadowed everything else going on at FSU, including major strides at the College of Medicine. So, why should the young COM risk its reputation on a chiropractic school? Why not put the chiropractic school at another university with a more established medical school (or no medical school at all)?

I never thought that the chiropractic school was a "fly by night" operation as you put it. I know the very long political history. I know that the the Senate Majority Leader is a chiropractor and former president of the Florida Chiropractic Association. I know that the former Senate President was a former lobbyist for the Florida Chiropractic Association, and that the chiropractic building will be named after him. I know that a very influential member of the Florida House of Representatives is a chiropractor. I know that SB2002 (chiro school bill) was the first bill passed by the legislature last year and was "fast-tracked" to avoid public scrutiny. I know that it was vetoed for the past two years by Jeb Bush because it was seen as a waste of money, and the only reason he signed it on the third try was as a "peace offering" to Sen. King. Like I said, I know the entire political history of the school.

(Also, you can insult me as much as you want, like you have in previous posts. You can call me a bigot or gullible, but I've demonstrated that I am neither. I GUARANTEE that I know a HELL of a lot more about the school than you do, so I think the insults are out of place. I should also say that you are embarassing the chiropractic profession as a whole when you declare that somebody "hates chiropractors" based on the fact that they don't think a chiropractic should be established at FSU.)

 

[rooster]

6. You claim that I "hate chiropractic," which is COMPLETELY INACCURATE as outlined in my previous post. Care to apologize?

Where did I say in my post that you "hate chiropratic"?
Do YOU "care to apologize" for YOUR HUGE presumptive error?

 

[BackTalk]

LOL, I love how you assume that I hate chiropractors just becuase I don't think they should start a chiro school at FSU. I've used a chiropractor personally many times in the past with EXCELLENT results for back pain, and I will continue to use one in the future. I will not hesitate referring patients to chiropractors as well for musculoskeletal conditions and back pain....so your assumptions about me are completely false.

Mednole, I was the one who said "I would probably give you more respect if you just came out and said you hate chiropractors rather than making it a money issue". You made it clear it's not the case. So I apologize for the accusation.

Also, you can insult me as much as you want, like you have in previous posts. You can call me a bigot or gullible, but I've demonstrated that I am neither. I GUARANTEE that I know a HELL of a lot more about the school than you do, so I think the insults are out of place.

Dude, what are you talking about? I haven't been throwing insults at you and neither has Rooster. I sure would like a drag off that doobie you're smokin.

I should also say that you are embarassing the chiropractic profession as a whole when you declare that somebody "hates chiropractors" based on the fact that they don't think a chiropractic should be established at FSU.)

Embarrassed? You've got to be kidding me, pack another bowl. Are you from Florida or something? Do you work for FSU or go to school there? I really don't get why you are so hell bent on the money issue. I mean, there are far greater causes in our country and probably in Florida concerning money that are more important. If your cause is to save Floridians money, you have bigger fish to fry than a little chiropractic school.

 

[MedNole]

6. You claim that I "hate chiropractic," which is COMPLETELY INACCURATE as outlined in my previous post. Care to apologize?

Where did I say in my post that you "hate chiropratic"?
Do YOU "care to apologize" for YOUR HUGE presumptive error?

LOL, I guess you've chosen to ignore all of the other arguments, so I'll just respond to this one.

Or millions for football or 17 million they just spent on a new dance hall. Give me a break. Yes- it would be more respectable and honest to just say he hated chiropractic. But that would only be a belief. Apparently, mednole feels a need to fabricate false justifications for that belief.

Well, I guess that settles the only point you tried to make. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

[MedNole]

Backtalk,
Yeah, I'm from Florida and I go to FSU. Of course there are projects that are more expensive where money can be saved, but that's not adequate justification for a chiropractic school. In fact, no one here has offered ANY justification for using state funds for a chiropractic school. If you have any answers for the points I listed above, I'd love to hear them.

 

[MacGyver]

All you chiro quackers, please defend this:

http://www.amerchiro.org/media/tips/

This is not some fringe chiro group, its the american chiropractic association, the chiro equivalent of the AMA.

Read that page and see all the outrageous quackery they are advocating.

According to the ACA, SMT treats ADHD, ear infections, and osteoporosis, among other things.

Please defend this MAINSTREAM chiro view while I laugh my ass off.

 

[MacGyver]

1) There is absolutely ZERO evidence that a public chiro school in Florida will increase numbers of minority chiros.

2) Increasing minority chiros is NOT EVEN CLOSE to sufficient justification to spend millions of dollars of taxpayer money on a pork barrel project that FSU NEVER EVEN ASKED FOR. Like I said, this is Jim King and Dennis Jones personal political objective. The faculty/leadership of FSU had NOTHING to do with wanting this chiro program.

3) There is zero evidence that a shortage of chiros exists in Florida. In fact the numbers show a HIGHER PER CAPITA AVG for florida than other states.

4) Chiros already have a very hard time setting up practice. Thats why they make up the biggest group of student loan defaulters in the nation. If there were really a huge unmet demand for chiro then you wouldnt see so many of the chiro students defaulting.

5) The job situation for chiros is so dire that its not uncommon to see them advertising their services in flea markets or setting up spinal screening booths at the local WalMart. I've seen multiple chiros with a WalMart booth. Their sign says "free bucket of chicken for a spinal screening." Now everybody knows thats humiliating for a so-called "doctor" who just spent 4 years in chiro school beyond college. There's no way in hell anybody would choose to do that. Like I said, the job environment for chiros is so bad that newly minted chiros MUST prostitute themselves at flea markets just to make any money at all.

6) The oversupply of chiros is also evidenced by the way chiro schools do clinical "training." Instead of the school having its own clinic that provides patients for chiro students, the vast majority of chiro schools REQUIRE that the students themselves bring in "new patients" to the clinic to graduate. Its absolutely scandalous.

 

[tofurious]

This is not some fringe chiro group, its the american chiropractic association, the chiro equivalent of the AMA.

With enough people, you can get any association you want!

 

[MacGyver]

With enough people, you can get any association you want!

My point is that the quacks scamming people that SMT can treat those things is not a fringe view, its the mainstream. BackTalk and others of his ilk have continually asserted that only a small minority of chiros believes in that kind of quackery. THe ACA website which is the largest chiro organization in the country is irrefutable proof that their assertions of quackery as a fringe group of chiro is outright FALSE.

 

[MacGyver]

Note also that the CCE, the organization that the department of education relies on as the chiro accrediting association, refers numerous times to "subluxation" in their curriculum materials that they use for accreditation.

Nevermind the fact that CHIROS THEMSELVES dont even agree on what a "subluxation" is. In fact a recent study of chiros found total disagreement on a sample of X-rays. Just as many chiros said there was no subluxation in the X-rays as there were chiros who said there was a subluxation in the images.

Yet another example of how quackery is mainstream in chiropractic, despite what BackTalk and his chiro cronies claim.

 

[rooster]

>>>Your above post didn't address ANY of the arguments I made above against the school, so I'll try again.

-The link I posted above( http://www.mgtamer.com/core.cfm?type=6&id=708&IsDetail=1 ) addressed ALL your arguments- Apparently you ignored and /or didn't read it.

>>>1. There is no need for more chiropractors in Florida, per the MGT report that you cite above.
- The need for a chiropractic school in Florida is detailed in depth per above link.

>>>2. Why should a chiropractic program be added when many existing programs are being cut, and tuition has been drastically increased?
-The existing programs each have there own "school" and need to account for and justify "their own" funding. Funding for one is not reliant upon funding for another.

>>>3. The overwhelming majority of faculty at FSU do not want the school, and think that it will seriously hurt the reputation of FSU.
-That is what is being spewed by Bellamy et al. And of the entire list, how many "arms" of adjunct and subordinates have been twisted? And how many, because of peer pressure, feel unable to express their honest opinion?

>>>4. If chiropractic research is so profitable, then why isn't any other university trying to open a chiropractic college?
-Many are in the development stages. FSU has the unique opportunity to pioneer the future of healthcare. It can be a leader or a follower. It WILL happen. What does FSU want it's legacy to be? Failed opportunity? Happier clowns? Dancers that can jump higher? A football team over 500? Only the lead dog has a change of scenery!

( Well, maybe a legacy of a football team over 500 is possible-
See this re: Steeler's - http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05020/445240.stm

>>>If it were lucrative, wouldn't every university in the country want to open a chiropractic school?
-A look at the ever expanding research in biomechanical/manipulative research demonstrates it is indeed lucrative and becoming more so with each passing year.

>>>5. Clearly, a chiropractic school will cost more money from the state than it will bring in. Therefore, how do you justify to Florida taxpayer's the benefit of spending public money on a chiropractic school?
-Justification, along with the huge benefits, are elaborated upon in detail at the link posted above.

>>>6. You claim that I "hate chiropractic," which is COMPLETELY INACCURATE as outlined in my previous post. Care to apologize?
- Apparently you have me mistaken for another poster or are embellishing your claim. I accept your apology.

>>>As for the one argument you sort of addressed about the medical school, you say that the two schools will be completely seperate. While this may be true for the moment, that doesn't mean that the two schools won't be associated.
- This is making an unsubstantiated leap of assumptions.

>>>Every other university that has a CAM department puts it under their college of medicine.
- Such as?????


>>>Why should a college of chiropractic be any different? It's a common belief at FSU that if the chiropractic school gets up and running and the controversy behind it dies down, the two schools will be associated.
-Flat earth was once a "common belief".

>>>This would be a disaster for the reputation of the COM.
-Non sequitor

>>>Like I said, this loss of reputation may or may not be warranted, but it's a fact that it will occur.
- Only if you consider Bellamy a credible psychic.

>>> Even if the two school's are not associated, the reputation of FSU will suffer. For whatever reason, most academics do not respect the study of chiropractic.
- Another fallacy. For Example: Texas Back Institute- The premier source on back health has five DCs on their staff.

>>>This hurts the College of Medicine in terms of reputation, recruiting competitive students, and obtaining competitive externships and residencies.
- You are being lied to. This is particularly disturbing because a few, with a personal agenda, - have no remorse or conscience in taking everyone else down with them. Very Sad.

>>> In addition, over a dozen faculty members have said they will resign if the chiro school is established. You can argue that they are being unreasonable, and to a certain extent I would agree with you.
- Reminiscent of playground tantrums.

>>> However, whether or not they are being unreasonable is irrelevant, because the reputation of the College of Medicine and FSU as a whole is still compromised.
-Addressed above.

>>> In effect, all that people know about FSU is the chiropractic school controversy.
-This may be of huge benefit for FSU if forward thinking is employed instead of 1950's ignorance.

>>> The chiro school has overshadowed everything else going on at FSU,
-Two words--------Bellamy, Kinsinger.

>>>including major strides at the College of Medicine.
- This is a gross overstatement. What "major strides" would have been made at the COM made since Dec. 29th?


>>>So, why should the young COM risk its reputation on a chiropractic school?
- It isn't. Although a prejudicial few would have you believe so.

>>>Why not put the chiropractic school at another university with a more established medical school (or no medical school at all)?
- It will. Just a matter of time, and their will be many. Actually, the establishment of a DC school at FSU will do nothing but enhance the reputation of it's medical school. FYI- most DC schools already have associations with hospitals for rotations, collaborative research with university medical schools, staff at many university hospitals, Chiropractic depts. at an ever increasing number of hospitals- a few examples of developments and collaborations you may be unaware of, or that some would not like you to know.

>>>I never thought that the chiropractic school was a "fly by night" operation as you put it. I know the very long political history.
-Much less political than some would have you believe.

>>> I know that the the Senate Majority Leader is a chiropractor and former president of the Florida Chiropractic Association. I know that the former Senate President was a former lobbyist for the Florida Chiropractic Association, and that the chiropractic building will be named after him.
- Isn't there a FSU building named Bellamy?

>>> I know that a very influential member of the Florida House of Representatives is a chiropractor. I know that SB2002 (chiro school bill) was the first bill passed by the legislature last year and was "fast-tracked" to avoid public scrutiny. I know that it was vetoed for the past two years by Jeb Bush because it was seen as a waste of money, and the only reason he signed it on the third try was as a "peace offering" to Sen. King. Like I said, I know the entire political history of the school.
- The key here is the SOURCE of the history. My post above details the chronology

 

[MedNole]

All of your responses reference the MGT report without citing any specific areas of it. I've read a lot of the MGT report, and I doubt you have. Please point me to the specific location where it says that there is currently a need for more chiropractors in Florida....you will not find it.

As for all the other points, I think your arguments are extremely weak, and they don't merit me wasting my time refuting them. I guess we'll just let the other readers decide who is more convincing.

 

[rooster]

All of your responses reference the MGT report without citing any specific areas of it. I've read a lot of the MGT report, and I doubt you have. Please point me to the specific location where it says that there is currently a need for more chiropractors in Florida....you will not find it.

As for all the other points, I think your arguments are extremely weak, and they don't merit me wasting my time refuting them. I guess we'll just let the other readers decide who is more convincing.

The Report details the need, justification, and implementation of a Chiropractic School. It has nothing to do with the number of DCs practicing in Florida, or "a need for more chiropractors in Florida ". JEESH!!!! Hard to believe you read ANY of the MGT report.

 

[MacGyver]

MGT report is what we call a "conclusion in search of evidence"

 

[BackTalk]

Chiros already have a very hard time setting up practice. Thats why they make up the biggest group of student loan defaulters in the nation. If there were really a huge unmet demand for chiro then you wouldnt see so many of the chiro students defaulting.

I wouldn't deny this. But regardless of profession it is tough to start a business from scratch. Yes, we have the highest number of defaulters too.

The job situation for chiros is so dire that its not uncommon to see them advertising their services in flea markets or setting up spinal screening booths at the local WalMart.

True. I've seen many MD's being equally creative. I believe the local hospital likes to solicit Wal-Mart customers with their free blood pressure checks. I've even seen them do bone density screenings at Wal-Mart. We even have a doctor in town that is an orthopedic surgeon that does "dessert with the doc". The dude totally stole that idea from chiropractors . It's ok for us to do those things because it's expected, but MD's? Come on, I guess things are getting tough for you guys too. Anyway, the orthos whole spiel is how to avoid knee surgery but his whole business is knee surgery. Who is he trying to fool? That's just one guy; we have OB/GYNS doing it at the local pizza shop "natural hormone therapy". The hospital sets these things up all over town. Doing it in a flea market is a rather new approach, Maybe rooster and I will team up and try that. Hey rooster, I'll bring the chicken.

Now everybody knows thats humiliating for a so-called "doctor" who just spent 4 years in chiro school beyond college.

What are you knocking them for, there are providing a valuable service.

I've seen multiple chiros with a WalMart booth. Their sign says "free bucket of chicken for a spinal screening."

Now that's a new one LOL . Did you get your free bucket of chicken? I bet you had your whole family lined up didn't you? I bet when you got home you called all your friends and told them to head up there too. We usually give you a six-pack of beer with a spinal exam. I think my method works better than the chicken.

There's no way in hell anybody would choose to do that.

You would if it got you 25 new patients every time you did it. I think when the local chiropractor does that in town and then rolls around in town in his Benzo, he could give a phuck what anyone thinks. Talk to the Rolex baby.

Like I said, the job environment for chiros is so bad that newly minted chiros MUST prostitute themselves at flea markets just to make any money at all.

I wonder if you can get like a free lamp or something with a spinal exam . Doesn't the hospital ***** themselves to physicians? Hell, the local one here in town wants to be my bitch if I send some scans their way. Hey, maybe rooster and I will try flea market thing. Hey rooster, you bring the chicken, I'll bring the beer.

The oversupply of chiros is also evidenced by the way chiro schools do clinical "training." Instead of the school having its own clinic that provides patients for chiro students, the vast majority of chiro schools REQUIRE that the students themselves bring in "new patients" to the clinic to graduate. Its absolutely scandalous.

That's right, because when you get out of college, the school isn't going to be there supplying you with patients. Unlike MD's, we don't get everything handed to us on a silver platter. Why don't you go talk to some dental students and see how bad they have it. In fact, some will even pay bums off the street to come in as patients. I guess its tough but who cares when you make more than any other health profession and work three days a week. You gotta love that!

My point is that the quacks scamming people that SMT can treat those things is not a fringe view, its the mainstream.

What" things" are you talking about?

BackTalk and others of his ilk have continually asserted that only a small minority of chiros believes in that kind of quackery.

That's right.

THe ACA website which is the largest chiro organization in the country is irrefutable proof that their assertions of quackery as a fringe group of chiro is outright FALSE.

There are probably 65000-70000 chiropractors in the US. Do you know how many belong to the ACA? I bet less than half. I would be interested in knowing.

 

[swedcrip]

No that’s 700-900 less students going to a Florida school and less tuition dollars and thus less dollars for the state of Florida. Students from Florida will more than likely return to Florida to their hometowns once they earn their DC degree elsewhere. So that’s 700-900 chiropractors that will be back in Florida practicing. Use a calculator next time chief.

most all state students are subsidized by public money. the tuition doesn't cover the cost of the training. try that on your calculator!

what still doesn't make sense is why the med school is in Tallahassee in the first place.