Many of the DO schools are happy to take SMP students. I am a current SMP student and received interviews from every DO school I completed a secondary for, with the exception of PCOM, which totalled to 4 interviews. Your MCAT is certainly good enough to be significantly over their average. If you do very well in your SMP you definitely have a shot at an acceptance in the 2011 cycle.
The **NEW & IMPROVED** official low gpa thread...
- Thread starter junebuguf
- Start date
Many of the DO schools are happy to take SMP students. I am a current SMP student and received interviews from every DO school I completed a secondary for, with the exception of PCOM, which totalled to 4 interviews. Your MCAT is certainly good enough to be significantly over their average. If you do very well in your SMP you definitely have a shot at an acceptance in the 2011 cycle.
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 601
- Reaction score
- 0
would you mind sharing your stats with us, because I am in a fairly similar situation and am trying to decide if the $40 grand is gonna be worth it for SMP, I'm strongly considering RFU's.
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 601
- Reaction score
- 0
i'm in a fairly similar situation. I have 3.3 cgpa and a 2.8 sgpa but plan and on applying to primarily DO schools this summer. I also plan on retaking a couple of science classes (probably physics1 and chem 2) in order to get my science gpa to around a 3.2 and then start an SMP (RFU's) following those summer courses. Do you guys think this is a good idea. I just want to go to medical school anywere, I really don't care anymore. It's either that or head to the carribean. 🙁
p.s. i'm taking mcat soon
tbh with a high enough MCAT... if your whole goal is to get into DO schools you don't need to go into RFU's program. I would simply go for a D.O. post bacc or SMP right now. That would cut out the lag time that you have to retake those science classes and additional tuition fees to boost your science GPA any higher. With a high MCAT and your cgpa and a convincing personal statement, you'll most likely make it into LECOM post bacc or maybe Midwestern's MA program.
Now the only problems with this is that you're going to need to explain why you want to go into osteopathic medicine if medical school is your end goal. It also helps to do some osteopathic shadowing and have a good LOR from an osteopathic physician on hand to back up w/e story you wish to put out.
If you are in the EXACT same situation are the person who posted above I would actually stay as far away from an SMP as possible and just purely look straight at the 1 year post baccs. Your GPA is fine, your sGPA is the issue and you address by taking the higher lvl medical school science courses. You don't need the research. Your MCAT if it's a 31 is perfect, the writing is low but i doubt they care.
Now the only problems with this is that you're going to need to explain why you want to go into osteopathic medicine if medical school is your end goal. It also helps to do some osteopathic shadowing and have a good LOR from an osteopathic physician on hand to back up w/e story you wish to put out.
If you are in the EXACT same situation are the person who posted above I would actually stay as far away from an SMP as possible and just purely look straight at the 1 year post baccs. Your GPA is fine, your sGPA is the issue and you address by taking the higher lvl medical school science courses. You don't need the research. Your MCAT if it's a 31 is perfect, the writing is low but i doubt they care.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
Only 3% of DOs practice osteopathic techniques, so you've overblown the "osteopathic medicine" vs. "medical school" thing. DO school is med school.
The only DO-specific aspects of applying to med school are:
1. separate app (AMCAS vs. AACOMAS vs. TMDSAS)
2. different GPA calcs (math doesn't count as science for DO except TX)
3. have to know history of DO (ie read the Gevitz book) and differences from MD system (COMLEX vs. USMLE, AOA vs ACGME etc), but nobody expects you to explain why there are currently two parallel medical education systems in the US
4. DO shadowing is all but required (http://www.do-online.org/iLearn/home.cfm)
5. a letter from a DO is required at some schools, some schools require a letter from either an MD or DO, some schools don't have a requirement for a physician letter
Everything about DO philosophy and DO's primary care focus is marketing garbage and shouldn't be taken seriously.
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 601
- Reaction score
- 0
I would love to attend a DO program, actually I would love to attend medical school, I could care less MD/DO. however if i had an option b.w. DO and MD, I would pick MD and RFU seems to produce some promising results if you work hard so thats why I want to attend. I guess I want to apply to DO schools and do RFU in hopes of one of them working out for me, which is why I NEED to get my sgpa UPPPPPP.
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 601
- Reaction score
- 0
wow, def did not know that, I went to my AACOMAS and my hypothetical scenario in which I changed the math courses I took to "bio" classes so that they would be counted in sgpa and went up to around a 2.95, so I guess my AAMC sgpa will be a lil higher than my AACOMAS, which is decent news I guess.
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 601
- Reaction score
- 0
ok another question, does this mean that DO schools don't consider math professors science? I know many schools require 2 lor's from science professors, one of mine is from a math class i took
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
Depends on the school. In my experience some (like DMU) are very hard core about listing and enforcing specifics like this. Some (like Nova) will let you negotiate.
Hi all,
I need some advice. Undergrad overall:2.96 BCPM 2.66 MPH Graduate:3.6 URM, Now, have applied to various programs and so far have been accpeted to Barry post bac and Mississippi Medical Science program, still waiting to hear from about 10 other programs (yes I applied to a lot) but not sure if I should do the post bac route which is 4 semesters or the medical science which is two semesters. I know I need to repair my BCPM, but does it make sense to repair it via a post bac, or just do the medical science degree? Wasn't sure. thanks!
I need some advice. Undergrad overall:2.96 BCPM 2.66 MPH Graduate:3.6 URM, Now, have applied to various programs and so far have been accpeted to Barry post bac and Mississippi Medical Science program, still waiting to hear from about 10 other programs (yes I applied to a lot) but not sure if I should do the post bac route which is 4 semesters or the medical science which is two semesters. I know I need to repair my BCPM, but does it make sense to repair it via a post bac, or just do the medical science degree? Wasn't sure. thanks!
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
The programs at Mississippi College and Barry are grad work, so they won't affect your undergrad GPAs. They are not at med schools, and have no control over the way their programs are perceived by med schools. If you're concentrating on DO schools, you might get away with doing one of these programs. But if you're concentrating on DO schools, then do one of the DO school's programs.
Note that your MPH GPA is great, but it's not a counterexample to your undergrad GPA. MPH work isn't comparable to med school coursework. (Not to say that undergrad prereqs are comparable, but there's 100 years of precedent there and all kinds of stats and trends, followed by a standardized test...unlike an MPH or other traditional grad work.)
Did you apply to the "URM" programs like Wake Forest, Creighton et al? Those seem like a better fit. See the GPA enhancement sticky, category 5, for a list of these.
Best of luck to you.
thanks Dr. Midlife! Yes, I did apply to OSU, Creighton, Wake Forest SIU, Indiana MSMS, UCON and plan on applying to G-town Gems. I have an interview at SIU, got rejected at Indiana and still waiting to hear from the others...I applied to DO programs but I am still waiting to hear back, these are the programs that I have heard from thus far. Thanks for the help, however according to Barry, 80% of their students have gone either to MD or DO programs... again thanks for the advice!
Hey guys, longtime lurker looking for some advice.
I'm currently a Georgetown SMPer working my ass off, 3.6ish so far, should finish the year 3.6-3.7 range. Average ECs/LRs, 1 year research no pubs, 1 year in biotech work, 1 semester shadowing, spent half a year in an ER. My undergrad cGPA was 3.05MD/3.1DO, sGPA ~2.95. I got a 12/12/13/R=37R on the MCAT, and I'm from CA unfortunately.
This whole process is making me frustrated, and I'm wondering if I should just apply to DO schools next year, as this year it looks as if the game is up.
Should I retake the MCAT? I can probably squeeze out another 2-4 pts in a month.
What would be the best opportunities to do on another off-year next year?
Any suggestions on hidden gems or new MD schools to apply to? I've probably hit at least half of the 130: all CA/IL/NY schools, most east-coasters, all SMP-friendly. Just looking for an interview for a 1st time.
Thanks for any help.
I'm currently a Georgetown SMPer working my ass off, 3.6ish so far, should finish the year 3.6-3.7 range. Average ECs/LRs, 1 year research no pubs, 1 year in biotech work, 1 semester shadowing, spent half a year in an ER. My undergrad cGPA was 3.05MD/3.1DO, sGPA ~2.95. I got a 12/12/13/R=37R on the MCAT, and I'm from CA unfortunately.
This whole process is making me frustrated, and I'm wondering if I should just apply to DO schools next year, as this year it looks as if the game is up.
Should I retake the MCAT? I can probably squeeze out another 2-4 pts in a month.
What would be the best opportunities to do on another off-year next year?
Any suggestions on hidden gems or new MD schools to apply to? I've probably hit at least half of the 130: all CA/IL/NY schools, most east-coasters, all SMP-friendly. Just looking for an interview for a 1st time.
Thanks for any help.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2010
- Messages
- 366
- Reaction score
- 3
I absolutely wouldn't retake the MCAT. That's a great score, and it's a gamble to retake it - you might get a lower score on your next take.
If you've been rejected outright from any schools, I've heard that you can call them up and ask what the reason for the rejection was. You might want to give that a try. People have made it in with less, so I guess I'd wonder if it was a letter of rec or your personal statement that's holding you back. And, I'd definitely apply to DO schools - I think you'd be able to get interviews (and acceptances) fairly easily there.
Try not to let it get you down - keep moving forward.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
Agree w/Velocity. In your situation there's no substantial difference between a 38 and a 40 or 42.
Your ugrad GPA is why you're not getting interviews. Without having your Gtown transcript in hand for this year's MD applications, you don't get the benefit. This is particularly true for the UCs.
I wish you had come by for advice before spending so much money on massive apps this year. You'll need to spend that much money again come June '10, and you don't want to just re-send the same essays. More work.
In your shoes I'd be hiring an admissions consultant to help you package and prioritize your '10-'11 application. It's tricky to use your PS to both market yourself as a candidate and explain what an SMP is.
As for what you do when you're done with Gtown, assume that job or those new ECs will not be very useful to your med school app unless you need a 3rd app cycle. Think hard about what state you want to apply from: you have time to set up residency for the '10-'11 app cycle.
Sigh. This forum (and probably me in particular) sells SMPs like they fix problems. With a GPA around 3.0, they introduce just as many as they fix, really.
Best of luck to you.
First off, you should be proud of yourself for hanging in there at Georgetown SMP with a ~3.6 GPA. I know these words don't mean much, especially when your ultimate goal is just to be accepted to med school. Thought I'd say it anyway and keep up the good work 👍.
Wow. While I'm far away from the position you're currently at, I'm actually hoping to have your stats a few years down the road (at least #s wise), eventually enter an SMP, and hopefully med school. I know that the chances are already slim for us applicants who need to improve our academic records, but I'm curious as to why you haven't been offered an interview yet.
Did you apply early or late? Did your ~3.0 cGPA display erratic trends or ended with a strong upward trend?
Sorry I couldn't give any advice. I'm actually a novice when it comes to this whole post-bacc process. I'm just trying to understand it better.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2009
- Messages
- 116
- Reaction score
- 5
These are my stats:
sGPA: 2.88
uGPA: 3.25
MCAT: 25Q 10V, 7P, 8B
graduate GPA: 3.35 (currently)
I've gotten rejections from my medical school applications and am currently waiting on news from the Creighton post-bac program and am going to apply to Georgetown's GEMS when the app drops. My question is, if I don't get into those programs, what should my next step be? In the year I've been working on my MS in Exercise Physiology I've:
- volunteered ~10 hrs/wk in a Cardiac Rehabilitation center
- physician shadowing ~6 hrs/wk
- become a TA
Should I just retake the MCAT and hope for the best, or would a program help me become more competitive?
Thanks!
sGPA: 2.88
uGPA: 3.25
MCAT: 25Q 10V, 7P, 8B
graduate GPA: 3.35 (currently)
I've gotten rejections from my medical school applications and am currently waiting on news from the Creighton post-bac program and am going to apply to Georgetown's GEMS when the app drops. My question is, if I don't get into those programs, what should my next step be? In the year I've been working on my MS in Exercise Physiology I've:
- volunteered ~10 hrs/wk in a Cardiac Rehabilitation center
- physician shadowing ~6 hrs/wk
- become a TA
Should I just retake the MCAT and hope for the best, or would a program help me become more competitive?
Thanks!
That would depend if you're applying to D.O. or M.D. schools. In general I would say your MCAT is a serious issue for M.D. schools and that it is an ehh score for D.O. schools. I would look at either a 1 year post bacc/certificate program or spend a year taking some upper division science courses to boost that sGPA and show that you can handle the academic courseload similar to that of 1st year medical school. During that year I would also try to get as much clinical e.c. activities in as possible as well. Are you a URM? If so your GEMs application will be much more favorable, if not then I would apply elsewhere as well.
Well, as to my undergrad gpa, i basically got my ass kicked first few years of college because i thought i could cruise like high school, focus on sports, etc. Failed a class 1st sem. frosh year, brings gpa down around 0.15.
I probably maintained around a 3.5 as an upperclassman, but it was too late, as those few C's and B-'s just anchor the gpa at such a low point.
I think my main concern right now is adding some ECs to put on next years app, what I should do on another gap year, and which specific schools would give me a chance - I seem to have exhausted all the coastal schools.
So I think some of you guys might think this is too early to decide what direction to take but here are a couple of my stats:
UCLA Sophomore
Molecular, Cell, and Developmental Biology B.S.
Cumulative GPA: 3.55
Science GPA: 3.06
Activities:
Research:
NIH-Sponsored Summer Fellowship 3 Months (Endocrinology)
Psychology Research 10 months, submitting for publication soon as the third author (out of three).
-I have received $3500 of school funding for my research through
competitive research scholarships
-Have presented my research twice and will do so again in
summer at conferences
Hospital Volunteer: 200+ Hours, Recruitment Committee Officer Position
Watts Literacy Tutor: 4 Hours/Week
Lab Assistant Job: 5 Hours/Week
Global Medical Training: Health-related community service activities and fundraisers. I also spent two weeks in Panama where we set up free medical clinics and I helped perform basic vital checks and initial diagnosis.
Symphonic Band: 2 Hours/Week
Physician Shadowing: 20 Hours
I plan on doing a lot more activities and definitely working up to bring up my GPA (and current activities) but I am worried that it will not be enough. I have noticed that the numbers that seem competitive keep on going up over time. As of now, I feel like BUMAMS is the way for me to go. If I am able to improve my numbers and get a 32MCAT would this be enough to get in? I am not a obsessive pre-med (or else I would have a better GPA) but I just want to be realistic about my future. Thanks!
UCLA Sophomore
Molecular, Cell, and Developmental Biology B.S.
Cumulative GPA: 3.55
Science GPA: 3.06
Activities:
Research:
NIH-Sponsored Summer Fellowship 3 Months (Endocrinology)
Psychology Research 10 months, submitting for publication soon as the third author (out of three).
-I have received $3500 of school funding for my research through
competitive research scholarships
-Have presented my research twice and will do so again in
summer at conferences
Hospital Volunteer: 200+ Hours, Recruitment Committee Officer Position
Watts Literacy Tutor: 4 Hours/Week
Lab Assistant Job: 5 Hours/Week
Global Medical Training: Health-related community service activities and fundraisers. I also spent two weeks in Panama where we set up free medical clinics and I helped perform basic vital checks and initial diagnosis.
Symphonic Band: 2 Hours/Week
Physician Shadowing: 20 Hours
I plan on doing a lot more activities and definitely working up to bring up my GPA (and current activities) but I am worried that it will not be enough. I have noticed that the numbers that seem competitive keep on going up over time. As of now, I feel like BUMAMS is the way for me to go. If I am able to improve my numbers and get a 32MCAT would this be enough to get in? I am not a obsessive pre-med (or else I would have a better GPA) but I just want to be realistic about my future. Thanks!
Thanks for the advice. I had another question that I have not seen addressed before. I am interested in pursuing an MD/PhD. Is this no longer an option for me? I know that MD/PhD admissions are reserved for those with 3.8 GPA, 35+ MCAT, but will taking a non-traditional track hurt me a lot? I was thinking about doing the BU MAMAS because it seems to offer significant research experience, while also showing that the students are capable of medical school curriculum.
I was also looking into the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine PREP-Med Program. It's program description sounds like it could prepare me for either MD or MD/PhD Programs.
First-year PREP-Med students take courses along with first-year Ph.D. and M.D./Ph.D. students in biochemistry, molecular and cell biology, as well as courses in biostatistics and methods focusing on basic techniques essential to contemporary biomedical research. After successful completion of these introductory courses, students complete advanced courses in the area of their research interest.
The only problem is that I have many reservations about doing a program that does not lead to a degree. What if I am unsuccessful in medical school admissions afterward? The cutoff for the program is a 3.45 GPA and a 32 MCAT so I am assuming they have higher success rates (generally) since they start off by accepting more competitive applicants. Any thoughts?
I was also looking into the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine PREP-Med Program. It's program description sounds like it could prepare me for either MD or MD/PhD Programs.
First-year PREP-Med students take courses along with first-year Ph.D. and M.D./Ph.D. students in biochemistry, molecular and cell biology, as well as courses in biostatistics and methods focusing on basic techniques essential to contemporary biomedical research. After successful completion of these introductory courses, students complete advanced courses in the area of their research interest.
The only problem is that I have many reservations about doing a program that does not lead to a degree. What if I am unsuccessful in medical school admissions afterward? The cutoff for the program is a 3.45 GPA and a 32 MCAT so I am assuming they have higher success rates (generally) since they start off by accepting more competitive applicants. Any thoughts?
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
MD/PhDs tend to have higher stats than MD only, but they're also more focused on research. I wouldn't do a SMP or postbac for the purposes of getting into a MD/PhD program. I would do more research. It sounds like you have a nice start on it as it is, but I would choose one area and be focused on it, rather than doing a lot of different research experiences. A very strong letter from a PI would help.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 776
- Reaction score
- 2
The thing is if you really want to do research and get your MD you don't have to do an MD/PhD right off the bat. Sure it's nice and ego boosting to get into one of the highly competitive MD/PhD spots but that isn't your only option. Once you get into an MD school your options are pretty much endless you can do whatever you want. You can even look into pursuing a PhD by talking to your counselors or academic deans. It's easier to work the system once YOU'RE ALREADY in the system rather than trying to gain admittance from OUTSIDE. You can contact professors directly and who doesn't want an MD student in their lab? They know you're smart enough to get into the MD program obviously you can do basic science. Plus, doing your first 2 year basic science qualifies as pre-reqs for graduate bio courses. Relax dude, there are multiple ways of working the system ... getting the MD is the hard part, everything else will fall in place.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
I disagree with this. Once you start working on an MD, you have much LESS freedom to pursue a PhD. You're expected to finish the MD degree in 4 years, unless the school allows you not to. You're expected to start residency either right away or within a year or two, or you'll be viewed as rusty by residency program directors: your med school's dean's recommendation and your board scores would be dated, and I doubt you'd be competitive for popular residencies. Your med school loans, while they'd be in deferment while you're working on a PhD, would accrue interest. As soon as you're done with your PhD you have to start making fatter payments than usual, while earning a resident's salary.
Do people do a la carte MD and then PhD? I'm sure they do, but it's not like it's a well worn path that has all the details figured out for you. You have to find a school and a PI who'll support you, and PhD funding is competitive too.
labruin, at this point, aim for MD/PhD/MSTP so that you have support from the med school and no debt on the other side. The program at Mt. Sinai, and other multiple-year programs that emphasize research, are a good way to get from where you are now to being competitive for MSTP.
Best of luck to you.
Wow, DrMidlife, you addressed my concern about taking a non-traditional route to an MD/PhD before I was able to post again! I was worried about funding, since I wouldn't be doing it through an MSTP. I hope that after two more years of undergraduate research (giving me a total of 3.5 years) on top of the research experience I obtain in a research-focused master's program will be enough to make me a competitive applicant. That is assuming I can pull up my GPA and score an excellent MCAT! Thanks!
hello, would like anyone help as im international dentist graduated with a gpa of 2.4 and want to know do i have any chance to get in to dental school and would like to know is there any program i can join to raise my gpa or what kind of master i can do with that gpa to improve my chances? one last thing will if i took the AEGD will that improve my chances when i apply to dental schools? i value all dentist help in here .thx in adv
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 776
- Reaction score
- 2
I know this might not be an ideal scenario but I was merely throwing out another possibility. Obviously you wouldn't want all these negatives that you pointed out. On the other hand there are schools that allow you to go to PhD after you get into MD like UTMemphis. But I could be wrong.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
What is your goal in pursuing a MD/PhD? Are you looking specifically to be a PI in the future? That is pretty much the idea of the MSTP. I am planning on going into academic medicine and running a translational lab with just a MD, it's definitely possible. I don't think having the PhD is necessarily going to open avenues for you that aren't possible with MD only, maybe if you want to go into something that's purely basic science, but even so, a lot of MDs do that type of research.
Well, I want to first thank whoever started this thread for doing just that - starting it!. Second, I want to thank all those who have been answering the questions of us "underdogs". We need the encouragement and guidance.
Now, here is the situation:
I graduated with a BA in English/Liberal Arts with a 2.87 GPA. I'm applying to a post-baac premed program at a state school in Georgia with the hope of adding missing science courses I have not taken (bio, chem, organic chem, physics...etc). However, my situation is a bit odd, because I took a semester of bio/bio lab and physics in undergrad and did well (B and B+) But I have grades in humanities ranging from outstanding to terrible (though I retook the terrible classes over again and did well). If I manage to do well during post-bacc and come out with a 3.8-4.0 GPA, do plenty of clinical volunteer work/research, and make a decent score on the MCAT (say 30) - what should I do next? Should I apply for an SMP program or should I try to apply for Med School? Or am I just deluding myself either way?
Thanks!
Now, here is the situation:
I graduated with a BA in English/Liberal Arts with a 2.87 GPA. I'm applying to a post-baac premed program at a state school in Georgia with the hope of adding missing science courses I have not taken (bio, chem, organic chem, physics...etc). However, my situation is a bit odd, because I took a semester of bio/bio lab and physics in undergrad and did well (B and B+) But I have grades in humanities ranging from outstanding to terrible (though I retook the terrible classes over again and did well). If I manage to do well during post-bacc and come out with a 3.8-4.0 GPA, do plenty of clinical volunteer work/research, and make a decent score on the MCAT (say 30) - what should I do next? Should I apply for an SMP program or should I try to apply for Med School? Or am I just deluding myself either way?
Thanks!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2010
- Messages
- 366
- Reaction score
- 3
How long ago did you graduate?
If you can come out of your post-bacc with a 3.8-4.0 and score well on the MCAT (33+, let's say?) I'd imagine that you have a realistic shot at medical school, particularly DO programs. Failing that, a SMP might be your "last resort" option.
I graduated in the spring of 2009 (I'm 22 by the way). Hmm, ok +33 seems about spot on. Guess I should forget Allopathic medicine, huh?
Edit: BTW thanks for responding.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2010
- Messages
- 366
- Reaction score
- 3
The only reason I asked when you graduated is because if you'd graduated, say, 5-10 years ago then it's possible that your undergraduate grades wouldn't factor in quite as heavily - assuming your application made it to a human reviewer.
I don't think you should forget about allopathic medicine. There's no guarantee about anything in this process. As of now you're a weak applicant, but if your application makes it into the hands of the right person you might find yourself with an interview (or multiple). Give your post-bac classes your all and take the MCAT seriously. If you do well with both of those and still can't get in, doing well in a SMP should open up some doors. Your situation isn't unrecoverable.
But, do get used to the idea of possibly doing a DO program. By virtue of the fact that the stats of their applicants are lower on average than MD programs, those will be the ones you'll have a better shot at.
Good luck to you!
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
5-10-15-20, doesn't matter how long ago it was, those grades are included and they matter a great deal. Cumulative GPA is the most important number on an app.
With a 2.78 the app won't make it to a human reviewer. Get it up over 3.0 and the app might see eyeballs - which will be looking for a STELLAR app that puts you ahead of the other 5000-10,000 apps at that school. This goes for DO as well as MD.
Agreed. LifeFixer, you'll need to be very clear and committed about how much you want to go to med school. It's going to take multiple years, boatloads of money, lost opportunities, and yes, no guarantee. You could do everything right from here forward and have nothing to show for it on the other side but a lot more undergrad/SMP student debt.
If you want to do it, here's a roadmap:
1. Figure out a financial plan for how you're going to survive before and during med school with additional undergrad debt.
2. Start volunteering and doing community service now, and keep doing it consistently. Forever.
3. Do more undergrad, including lots of upper div science. Don't stop until your cumulative overall and science GPAs are over 3.0, preferably higher. Consider doing a 2nd bachelors in order to get financial aid and registration priority.
4. Start working on faculty recommenders as soon as you can, and nurture these relationships. A strong first step for this is to have a draft of your personal statement in hand when you approach each professor.
5. Put a great deal of time, and a fair bit of money, into MCAT prep. A great MCAT score does not fix your GPA, but it adds to your academic credibility. Note that an average MCAT is 32 for MD, about 29 for DO. Don't plan on trying it and then retaking it - prep right and take it once. Re-prep is incredibly ineffective, expensive and doesn't typically buy more points.
6. With improved undergrad GPA and great MCAT score in hand, assume you'll then need to do an SMP. Do a good SMP. That means you're in med school classes with med students, graded against the med student curve, supported in your efforts to get into med school. Also note that SMP applications want your MCAT score for admissions, so timing of the test is important - I'd say the January test is the latest for a good SMP.
7. Don't take any advice as gospel, particularly from premed advisers, but listen hard to criticism. Most people are full of crap and good advice is VERY hard to come by. Including on SDN.
Best of luck to you.
I am looking to be a physician while conducting research. I've heard that MSTP provides the kind of training that employers look for when hiring doctors for academic medicine. Ideally, I would be conducting diabetes research, while running clinical trails. Would being a practicing physician, at the same time, be asking for too much? Of course there are doctors who have done it. I've heard that they find it hard to balance the two and end up focusing on one or the other.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
You don't need a md/phd to do that. Md only is just fine. I
planning to primarily do research (> 50%) and am not getting a md/phd.
Alright, thanks. I'll look more into that option. I'd be nice to not have to attend an additional three years of school to get to where I want to get.
Are you a medical student? If so, what kind of research experience are you getting while in medical school? Maybe I should just focus on getting into medical school, for now. I heard there are some programs where I can apply to the school's MD/PhD program during the second year of medical school.
Are you a medical student? If so, what kind of research experience are you getting while in medical school? Maybe I should just focus on getting into medical school, for now. I heard there are some programs where I can apply to the school's MD/PhD program during the second year of medical school.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
labruin, it sounds to me like you need a mentor. I recommend getting on PubMed and/or UpToDate, and see what's going on in diabetes research that interests you. Start contacting PIs (last author, usually) to see if you can work in their lab as an undergrad. That would be well worth delaying med school for.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
Yes I'm a 2nd year med student. I've done a lot of research in med school, so far I've gotten 3 pubs (first author) in high journals and have a lot more in the pipeline. I'll be presenting at four national and two international meetings this year. I don't think I'd be any more productive as a 3rd year MD/PhD student. Doing research isn't about the degree, it's about doing research.
As a caveat, doing research during the school year as a med student and doing well in school requires very good time management. I spend about 20-30 hours a week in lab. You don't want to commit that amount of time unless you're sure you can handle your coursework and do well.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2009
- Messages
- 298
- Reaction score
- 0
.,
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
3.4/mid 30s would be fine, but I think the bigger thing you need to do is figure out how to convince med schools that you know what you want. Finishing one degree and immediately starting postbac to do another one won't inspire confidence. Are you going to take the bar? If I were to interview you, I'd ask you how you knew medicine was the career for you.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2009
- Messages
- 298
- Reaction score
- 0
Hey drizz,
Thanks for responding.
I'm not taking the bar right now. I can take it anytime I want to in the future because I'll need a bar prep course, regardless, and they don't teach you how to pass the bar in law school. BarBri does.
My thought process for going to law school basically consisted of liking Law and Order and wanting to be a district attorney like those people. Yeah. So basically it was a harebrained decision. Well, I've had summer experiences working in the legal community and while I enjoyed them, I'm not passionate about the law. I think that I would be okay with practicing law as a career but I'm not sure that I love it like I think I would love medicine. I could definitely see myself working as a pediatrician or internist and helping patients with their problems. I've always been passionate about medicine but I rejected it as a career choice because I thought I wasn't intelligent enough to be a doctor-learning disability, long story. Maybe I'll write about it in my PS. But basically three years in law school with success and awards has taught me to believe that I can do something if I put my mind to it, and medicine is what I want to do. I have lots of volunteering experience from undergrad but none of it is medically related.
I figure that if I immerse myself in the post-bac experience this year and next, and volunteer about 400 hours during this time in clinical settings, that it will confirm my desire to become a physician. And if I discover that medicine and its downsides and pitfalls are not something that I'm willing to deal with, at least I will have accumulated enough science credits to sit for the patent attorney exam, which is also something that interests me. I love science-it just hasn't always loved me.
And maybe I'm nuts, but I feel like going to a post-bac and spending more than a year immersing myself in science courses and clinical volunteering before completing my application will show the ad-coms that I am serious about medicine. I feel that my law education would serve me well as a physician because I have broadened my horizons and learned to look at medical issues from a different aspect than other premeds-torts, for one.
I thought that finishing my law degree would look better than simply quitting it-am I incorrect? I've read on SDN that ad-coms might see my law experience as a positive because it shows that I can complete a professional degree program?
P.S.- if I get rejected from med schools in that cycle and have to resort to an SMP to gain admission-wouldn't enrolling in the SMP after my post-bac be enough to convince ad-coms that I'm serious?
Last edited:
I agree that I need a relevant mentor. My current mentor is really pushing me to go into psychology graduate school. I, however, am currently in the progress of getting into a diabetes research lab. I have been trying since before I came to UCLA, but the current diabetes research interest groups mainly work with graduate students. Now that I am applying to lab positions through research programs (i.e., Amgen, MARC, UC LEADS) I should be placed into one by this summer. (Hopefully!) This should give me two years of relevant research experience before I apply to master's programs (aiming for Mt. Sinai's PREP-Med Program).
Wow, this is very encouraging! Thank you!
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
You should definitely finish your degree. It has value and med schools do want to see you finish it. Regarding your other points, I don't think that proves you want to pursue a career in medicine. It shows that you know what hoops to jump through to apply to med school. I mean you can explain all you want in your PS but actions speak louder than words. A good amount of interviewers/adcoms (myself included) would ask whether your story made sense.
I'm not trying to discourage you from pursuing this course if it's what you really want. That said, you need to convince med schools that it's something you're going to follow through on and pursue as a career.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2009
- Messages
- 298
- Reaction score
- 0
Thanks drizzt,
I guess my response to the ad-coms if they doubted my story would be to share my perspective. If I decide that medicine is for me, why would I be willing to put myself potentially 250k in debt and give up 8 years of my life for something if I wasn't serious about it? I could take the bar this July and with the connections I've made, start a job next January making 52k a year. So that's 520k in earnings by age 35, worst case scenario assuming absolutely no raises, and assuming that I don't go into private practice after three or four years. I'd probably be in low six figures or near it by that age. So there's tremendous opportunity cost here, especially when you consider the large loan debt.
If I were to apply to medical school after a post-bac and get in on the first try, I won't be making any income until I'm in my mid 30s almost. Then I'll have at least three years of crappy pay while shouldering a large loan debt.
My motives are definitely altruistic-especially when you consider the fields I'm interested in-not much money in PCP care. I guess my perspective is completely biased, but I feel that the younger traditional premed is the bigger risk, because they don't have something to fall back on and may not have put as much thought into considering other career options before deciding on medicine.
If you were an ad-com, would you buy this?
If I do decide for certain that medicine is for me during my post-bac, what advice would you give me for helping to convince the ad-coms?
Thanks.
I guess my response to the ad-coms if they doubted my story would be to share my perspective. If I decide that medicine is for me, why would I be willing to put myself potentially 250k in debt and give up 8 years of my life for something if I wasn't serious about it? I could take the bar this July and with the connections I've made, start a job next January making 52k a year. So that's 520k in earnings by age 35, worst case scenario assuming absolutely no raises, and assuming that I don't go into private practice after three or four years. I'd probably be in low six figures or near it by that age. So there's tremendous opportunity cost here, especially when you consider the large loan debt.
If I were to apply to medical school after a post-bac and get in on the first try, I won't be making any income until I'm in my mid 30s almost. Then I'll have at least three years of crappy pay while shouldering a large loan debt.
My motives are definitely altruistic-especially when you consider the fields I'm interested in-not much money in PCP care. I guess my perspective is completely biased, but I feel that the younger traditional premed is the bigger risk, because they don't have something to fall back on and may not have put as much thought into considering other career options before deciding on medicine.
If you were an ad-com, would you buy this?
If I do decide for certain that medicine is for me during my post-bac, what advice would you give me for helping to convince the ad-coms?
Thanks.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
No, a younger traditional premed isn't a bigger eisk for second bc they'll will most likely finish (low attrition rate) and work at least 5 years longer in medicine than you.
Would I buy it as an adcom? No, probably not without a lot of good supporting evidence. IMO the bar for non-trads is automatically higher bc they don't have a body of evidence proving that their whole life up to this point was preparing themselves for a career in medicine.
I'm a career changer too but I gradually transitioned my way into medicine over the course of 4-5 years, even so, I got the question all the time. I feel if I hadn't backed it up with top tier stats idve had a lot more trouble.
Would I buy it as an adcom? No, probably not without a lot of good supporting evidence. IMO the bar for non-trads is automatically higher bc they don't have a body of evidence proving that their whole life up to this point was preparing themselves for a career in medicine.
I'm a career changer too but I gradually transitioned my way into medicine over the course of 4-5 years, even so, I got the question all the time. I feel if I hadn't backed it up with top tier stats idve had a lot more trouble.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 14,647
- Reaction score
- 44
I do think they need to finish their degree, but I also think immediately switching from law to starting a postbac will be a concern. Their explanation just raised more questions for me. They went into law even tho they didn't really want to pursue a career in law from the beginning?
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2009
- Messages
- 298
- Reaction score
- 0
Drizz,
Thanks for your response. So if you were me, and decided that this is what you wanted to do, how would you convince the ad-coms that this is what you want to do? I know that it looks suspicious to jump from one program to another, but what is my alternative? Should I go practice law for 2-3 years while taking the pre-reqs at night on a part time basis? Won't that look like I'm dissatisfied with the law as well, even though I'm not? I haven't taken any of the pre-reqs, remember. If I practice for two years and take the classes on a very part-time basis, won't that tell the ad-coms that I've been planning to apply to medical school as well, and might make them doubt that I could handle a rigorous full medical school curriculum? Completing all 8 prereqs in a year's time would probably help alleviate those doubts in their mind.
I apologize if I'm belaboring the point, but it doesn't seem like you think there's any way to confirm my desires and assuage the doubts of the ad-coms.
Thanks.
Thanks for your response. So if you were me, and decided that this is what you wanted to do, how would you convince the ad-coms that this is what you want to do? I know that it looks suspicious to jump from one program to another, but what is my alternative? Should I go practice law for 2-3 years while taking the pre-reqs at night on a part time basis? Won't that look like I'm dissatisfied with the law as well, even though I'm not? I haven't taken any of the pre-reqs, remember. If I practice for two years and take the classes on a very part-time basis, won't that tell the ad-coms that I've been planning to apply to medical school as well, and might make them doubt that I could handle a rigorous full medical school curriculum? Completing all 8 prereqs in a year's time would probably help alleviate those doubts in their mind.
I apologize if I'm belaboring the point, but it doesn't seem like you think there's any way to confirm my desires and assuage the doubts of the ad-coms.
Thanks.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,718
What I see in this thread is a lot of over thinking around adcom perception management. In my opinion, the issues of career jumping, degree finishing and law practicing-or-not are small potatoes compared to putting together a competitive med school app and having a compelling story in your essay and letters and interview. Over in nontrad there's a constant stream of lawyers moving into med school, at various points in their education and career, if you want to collect a more varied set of opinions.
I'm considerably more worried, on your behalf, about undergrad GPA and performance in science classes, than I am about the issues above. Partially I'm saying this because I have a close friend who finished a law degree and went straight into med school without ever practicing. But her credentials were stellar, so I don't think it's apples to apples.
Frankly, the punchline here will be "just say you want to work in health policy."
Best of luck to you.