The pharmacy school bubble...is about to burst

Discussion in 'Pre-Pharmacy' started by lisinopril, 10.01.14.

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  1. lisinopril

    lisinopril Account on Hold Account on Hold 2+ Year Member

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  3. owlbright

    owlbright Chubbic Bowman 2+ Year Member

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    Thanks for sharing the info! There have already been fewer applicants this year and some pharmacy programs have advertemtly cut down class size to avoid the tip of the iceberg headed this way as U of F just did.
     
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  4. pharmnrp804

    pharmnrp804

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    Yup. Pretty much this. Cutting class sizes and getting rid of all of these for-profit pharm schools is pretty much the only solution, as long as it's combined with expanding pharmacist services/reimbursement. Provider status will probably be a make-or-break thing for us in the next year or two.
     
  5. ramizlol

    ramizlol 2+ Year Member

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    If pharmacy schools start closing down, increase their requirements, and lower class sizes then the problem could be solved. But, that is not gonna happen.
     
  6. Vatic

    Vatic Account on Hold Account on Hold

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    Too much damage has already been done. The normal 15 year cycle isn't going to fix this mess. This was a classic boom-bust bubble. Plus we have another headwind on the horizon. Healthcare as a percentage of the economy will revert to the mean. That means down and overshooting to the downside. Anyone catch Zeke Emmanuel's comments about people should die at 75. Remember the death panel provisions tucked away in the ACA. The boomers are creditors in this setup and guess what happens to the creditors in a debt default?
     
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  7. oldstock

    oldstock Banned Banned

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  8. fewaopi

    fewaopi 7+ Year Member

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    This should be required reading for all pharmacy students who can still pull out and any applicants. I wish I read this early on back when I started, it would've made me treat pharm school differently, though I don't think anyone could've definitively predicted the situation we have now. I thought the article emphasized way too much on 0-6 schools considering most schools are not structured that way but overall it's pretty accurate.

    The average debt seems way too high to me, least from the people I know who seem to not be in that much debt. I guess private schools are a whole other ball game. Thank god I went to a cheaper school and not St. John's, I was almost tricked into going there by the free laptops they were giving the students. TOTALLY NOT WORTH GOING THERE.

    I feel really sorry for the new students, they have no idea what's going to hit them. But word is starting to spread and you can't stop the truth from trickling down as many are starting to realize their situation. Schools will close for sure but not enough probably. Many are actually doing healthcare jobs not related to pharmacy though, more office work which hasn't been mentioned like med writing but that probably varies by geography. For most schools, hospital, retail are the main options.
     
  9. lisinopril

    lisinopril Account on Hold Account on Hold 2+ Year Member

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    Students usually don't know what they get themselves into....they just want to be in school and ignore digging research for future job prospect. A lot of nursing students are on same boat too. Too many nurses now...also.
     
  10. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    Meanwhile, students seem to be ignoring more lucrative fields such as engineering, finance, and computer science, simply because they think that a PharmD automatically provides job stability. It's similar to taking out $100k in loans for a liberal arts degree over going to a trade school simply because of the mistaken belief that a bachelors degree in anything is a better path to a stable career compared to being a plumber, electrician, auto mechanic, or any trade that is in relatively high demand.
     
    Last edited: 10.03.14
  11. Silent Cool

    Silent Cool Member Banned 10+ Year Member

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    The problem is that there is no incentive to close as long as the government keeps handing out the money. If they can fill the class with 2.8 GPA'ers, they probably will.
     
  12. Silent Cool

    Silent Cool Member Banned 10+ Year Member

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    The better schools like UF will probably cut, but many of the others (the 'for-profit' types--they aren't really for-profit, but it's useful to think of them that way) will probably just fill but with lower quality students.
     
  13. tinav

    tinav Banned Banned Account on Hold

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    Wasn't there a bubble burst for nursing too at one point?
     
  14. bananaface

    bananaface Pharmacy Supernerd Staff Member Lifetime Donor SDN Administrator 10+ Year Member

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    Maybe at some point schools will start making a point of teaching students that they can own and operate their own business after graduation rather than relying on the pre - existing job market. I only know a handful of folks who have done things like open their own store bc they did not find a job, start a staffing agency bc they wanted to work relief themselves and had quality RPH friends who wanted to moonlight, or started their own consultant business. But, if you think about it, why does pharmacy need to be corporate? We have the potential for more entrepreneurship than is going on currently.
     
  15. 7.62x51

    7.62x51

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    shouldn't this be obvious?
    - price (ie Wal-Mart pharmacy can run at a loss but will still be profitable since people buy other things)
    - convenience (ie again Wal-Mart - pick up your prescription while doing your groceries)

    Other avenues? I'm sure there are other entrepreneurship ideas than opening up your own store but most of them probably don't require a degree. In fact, even opening your own pharmacy doesn't require any degree (just a lot of $$$).
     
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  16. rxglasshalffull

    rxglasshalffull 2+ Year Member

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    " this document needs to be read by every guidance counselor and graduating high school student in the U.S. The biggest culprit in this fiasco is the AACP, whose aggressive marketing of new schools of pharmacy is no more than a self-serving promotion to collect annual dues of $27,000 (2013) from member colleges. In addition, this is the same organization whose "Pharmacy Workforce Center" continues to promote the non-existent pharmacist "shortage" to high school students and universities. As for the concept of "provider status", if this were such a gold mine, why are so many physicians rushing to become employees of hospitals and integrated health networks? And if "provider status" became universal, it would still be far more cost effective for employers to utilize specially trained nurses, who already have provider status, to provide counseling at a fraction of a pharmacist's salary. Finally, while students entering the profession "have little understanding of what such a debt load may mean for them", they also have little understanding that their future "six-figure" salary means they often earn more than many hospital or retail chain vice presidents. These high salaries have a chilling effect on full time employment and has resulted in a large increase in lower cost per Diem or part-time positions. The only people happy with the current status of pharmacy education are the universities suckling at the cash cow's teat and the large retail chains who see the oversupply as the answer to drive salaries downward, or at least cause them to stagnate for a decade or two. I weep for my profession and its future"

    a retired pharmacist's response to that article.
     
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  17. kaidou1412

    kaidou1412 2+ Year Member

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    I used not to believe this however if you look up at indeed.com and many other job posting website forums, you will see the reality. However, if your heart says pharmacy, then go for it. I just realized that pharmacy was not for me after few acceptances from pharmacy school last year.
     
  18. owlbright

    owlbright Chubbic Bowman 2+ Year Member

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    So you switched to medical schools? Did you apply medical schools and pharmacy schools at the same time? Very wise decision. I feel like I am stuck in Pharmacy boat already.
     
  19. kaidou1412

    kaidou1412 2+ Year Member

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    I thought my heart was at pharmacy, and I spent 6-7 years to get into pharmacy schools (including pre-reqs and military as a pharmacy tech). I don't regret my previous experiences though. at least now I know what i want to be.
     
  20. owlbright

    owlbright Chubbic Bowman 2+ Year Member

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    Well good for ya! My heart was set on pharmacy and I knew it's gonna be an extremely arduous journey due to the bleak profession prospect the way it's been headed toward and the fact that I was an international from Asia but I still wanted to be part of it and contribute to some of it's on-going change. For the worst case, I would go anywhere in AK, MT or WY looking for a job upon graduation.
     
  21. kaidou1412

    kaidou1412 2+ Year Member

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    at least it's next to Yellowstone NP or Glacier NP. not too bad location :)
     
  22. lisinopril

    lisinopril Account on Hold Account on Hold 2+ Year Member

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    BUBBLE...BUBBLE...BUBBLE...........
     
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  23. TheLazyScholar

    TheLazyScholar 2+ Year Member

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    This is an informative article, but there are some issues.

    Just a little fact checking shows that the author is not an authority in the pharmacy field. In fact, she has written many articles on other topics for many publications, besides The New Republic (TNR). Also, Katie Zavadski didn't list sources for anything she wrote from her article. Yes, we can take the time to research anything she wrote to find out if it is indeed factual, but why do that when it is part of her job as a writer to do so? I also want to state that TNR has had a few controversies, one of them being plagiarism (Google: Stephen Glass and Ruth Shalit). The magazine was also purchased by one of the founders of Facebook, Chris Hughes, in March 2012, who left Facebook to support Obama's campaign.

    I do think that this is a well-written article and very informative. I just think that it is important to list sources and know a little about the person writing the article to rule out biases.
     
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  24. lisinopril

    lisinopril Account on Hold Account on Hold 2+ Year Member

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    This issue has been alarmed way back in 2008, 2009 and nobody cared about it until now. It is kind of late , already.
     
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  25. dosepak

    dosepak Pill Counter 2+ Year Member

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    Thank you for sharing the article! It was very interesting to read! Pharmacist saturation is currently bad and is going to get worse with the endless opening of new schools. I think ALL pharmacy schools should require a bachelor's degree and pharmacy experience to reduce the number of students who just want to enter pharmacy because they think it's easy money.
     
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  26. oldstock

    oldstock Banned Banned

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    your solution of requiring a bachelor degree and pharmacy experience does not solve the root problem, which is too many schools. Let's say now that all pharm schools require a bachelor degree and pharmacy experience. The result is still that admission standards are getting lower as more schools opening and the same old people with mediocre grades and standardized test scores still gett in (as schools still need to fill seats), this time with a bachelor degree.

    US medical schools' minimum requirement not long ago was only 90 college credits from any accredited college or university. They now require a bachelor degree only because there are even more people applying than before for limited seats (which are in turn limited by the numbers of medical residencies sponsored by the US government). Simply demand and supply. Market decides what would be required for admission :)

    On the other hand, as more pharm grads pumped out, they have to do residencies for jobs. In the future, as the current rate of new pharm schools opening, they all make new grads to do residencies and even more years than now in order to get a job in pharmacy.

    You wanna solve this saturation problem ?? My thinking is that we should increase awareness of this saturation problem, both in the increased numbers of pharm schools and pharmacy graduates. Less people wanting to apply will force schools to close down or scale down their sizes.

    IMHO increasing public awareness of this problem is the most effective way to go about solving it as we cannot rely on ACPE or ACCP to act on this matter (they have already announced publicly many times that they would continue to grant accreditation to any school that wants to open and meet their "standards" (with a fee of course) :)
     
    Last edited: 11.05.14
  27. PharmDCandidate2014

    PharmDCandidate2014 Organ Donor

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    The real question is...

    Why do students put themselves at risk by borrowing 6 figures of money for an education that, when completed, allows one to dispense and label bottles? Maybe hospital pharmacists have it different, but you guys are the minority of the pharmacists. Where is the VALUE of the pharmacy education that can't be taught through the Internet, or even undergraduate courses - for instance, pharmacology? There is NO longer a barrier to getting a pharmacy license either. Schools are plentiful! With engineering, there is the IQ/motivation barrier, with medicine and dentistry, there is the GPA/standardized test barrier, heck, even with modeling there's a weight/looks barrier!

    If I'm paying 6 figures and 4 years of my time, I would want a skillset that isn't replaceable by automation. Anyone else? :highfive:
     
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  28. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    But the pharmacy schools tell us that we have provider status, MTM, pharmaceutical care, and Obamacare. Those will create plenty of jobs for us, right...?
     
  29. lisinopril

    lisinopril Account on Hold Account on Hold 2+ Year Member

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    All are lies...Out of 1000 PharmD grad, you will likely see at most 5-10 people doing MTM.
     
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  30. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    Agreed. I was being sarcastic. There simply isn't enough reimbursement to generate demand for these services.
     
  31. SanMateoRph

    SanMateoRph Banned Banned Account on Hold

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    lisinopril thanks for this article i was thinking about going to ucsf or ucsd some home state schools but i don't feel good about applying because common sense says pharmacy is no longer the road to feed myself it is rather the road to getting upset
     
  32. Lucky One

    Lucky One 2+ Year Member

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    Kind of right @lisinopril, the new schools are starting to be desperate in order to fill their seats. Maybe ACPE doesn't have to do anything about it after all :laugh:
     
  33. PharmHopefulLonghorn2015

    PharmHopefulLonghorn2015

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    The ACPE will be sued for violating antitrust laws for keeping schools from opening.
     
  34. MatCauthon

    MatCauthon 7+ Year Member

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    The only organizations that can stop new schools from opening are hospitals. Hospitals control rotation site availability. But hospitals want more schools because it means lower wages for pharmacists
     
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  35. darknightzzz

    darknightzzz Banned Banned Account on Hold

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    yep, business supply and demand. More new schools open because of the relatively low cost ( dont have to provide complicated and expensive equipments) and high reward (all these pre pharm eager to join). This is now a good business capital. When business capital is a success, the victims are the people in the capital itself, who are the pharmacy students.
     
  36. mdlando

    mdlando

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    started working as a house framer amongst other trades for a construction company, making 4k a month in my inbetween year before pharm school begins and I wonder why in the world so many people go to college
     
  37. type b pharmD

    type b pharmD 7+ Year Member

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    Couple of things ..

    To stoichionetrist , yeah you can make 100+k in computer science, finance, or engineering, but you most likely need to live in a city to do that, and 100k in a major metro area puts you very low on the class ladder ... And I wouldn't think it is "easy" to move up to the 150-200k position ,which is only a hop skip and jump from staff Rph . 120k at Google in San Francisco buys you about as much "stuff" as 50k in Fresno .. now when you are making 150k in rural nowhere, you would need to be making at least 250-300k as a software person in SF to make up that COL difference!

    To mdlando .. 4k/month is basically slightly above national average .. Rph start at 10k/month minimum ... If you move to rxm or other management , it is not hard to hit 15k/month inclusive of benefits value .. there is a big difference. 4k provides for a roof and a car and food , not much else especially in a city.
     
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