The Problem With Everything

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soorg

soorg

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http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2015/10/22/u-s-medical-school-applications-set-new-record/

This.

This is the problem with everything everyone complains about. On this forum, in the OR, in the doctor's lounge, in the office. Wherever anyone can complain about medicine.

You don't like something about your job? T.S. There's someone right behind you willing to take your spot. A never-ending supply of doctors. No wonder hospitals/insurance companies think they can treat us like garbage. They can literally demand we come into work with a reverse-mohawk and pink scrubs, forcing us to kiss the hand of any patient that spits on us after we beg them to sign our consent form. “Doctor, you should be thanking the patients for giving you the honor of taking care of them!”

900 U.S. grads a year don't get a residency. You complaining about your training program? So long, chump. There are people dying to take your place.

Why do so many intelligent people continue to go to medical school? Why give up the best years of your life, put yourself through all that stress, studying, lack of sleep/food/exercise, training, DEBT, liability, unhealthy working conditions, just so you can be an indentured servant to an insurance company or “health system,” who will degrade/demoralize you to the point where they won’t even call you “doctor” anymore? Last I checked, I wasn’t board-certified in “providerology.” It’s as if one has to continually fight for the “honor” of helping people. Think about all you’ve gone through to get to where you are. You are doing it to help people, yet so much is asked of you for that “honor.” After a while, someone starts to wake up and realize it’s not an honor-it’s for suckers. At a certain point, pragmatism has to trump idealism.

Remember medical school? “I love physiology! I can’t wait to apply it everyday in practice!”

No, sonny boy. You don’t love physiology. When you’re forced to document every time you breathe within 10 feet of a patient, when you’re forced to tell the OR RN what ASA classification the patient is (why do they need to know this?!), when you’re forced to sign, date, and time your name four times for every patient you take care of, you ain’t likin’ physiology, I assure you. It’s a miracle CMS doesn’t demand we document our shoelace color or Social Security number on our records.

Doctors are dweebs, wimps, sheep. The smartest neutered cattle. They’ve been trained to be this way. But why? What good is a hospital or insurance company without the doctors to feed it? Someone alluded to this a few months ago, but it bears repeating/paraphrasing again: Hospitals/insurance companies/American healthcare in general are nothing without doctors, yet the doctors have been brainwashed to think it’s the other way around.

The next time some jerk administrator/RN/insurance company putz forces you to do something stupid and silly, remember all that time you spent in college typing up your organic chemistry lab reports. Remember that summer you spent studying for the MCAT while all your friends/family were out having fun. Remember all the time in medical school spent with your nose in a book, while everyone else in their 20s was already making a living. Remember coming back to your call room at 3 am intern year, after admitting yet another alcoholic vomiting blood all over you. Remember taking Step Three in the midst of an 80 hour work week. And then remember there are hundreds of cows behind you, waiting for the “honor” for them to be like you.

Are you going to be the next neutered cow?

It doesn’t matter. If it’s not you, it’ll be the person behind you.

Rinse. Repeat.
 
soorg said:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2015/10/22/u-s-medical-school-applications-set-new-record/

This.

This is the problem with everything everyone complains about. On this forum, in the OR, in the doctor's lounge, in the office. Wherever anyone can complain about medicine.

You don't like something about your job? T.S. There's someone right behind you willing to take your spot. A never-ending supply of doctors. No wonder hospitals/insurance companies think they can treat us like garbage. They can literally demand we come into work with a reverse-mohawk and pink scrubs, forcing us to kiss the hand of any patient that spits on us after we beg them to sign our consent form. “Doctor, you should be thanking the patients for giving you the honor of taking care of them!”

900 U.S. grads a year don't get a residency. You complaining about your training program? So long, chump. There are people dying to take your place.

Why do so many intelligent people continue to go to medical school? Why give up the best years of your life, put yourself through all that stress, studying, lack of sleep/food/exercise, training, DEBT, liability, unhealthy working conditions, just so you can be an indentured servant to an insurance company or “health system,” who will degrade/demoralize you to the point where they won’t even call you “doctor” anymore? Last I checked, I wasn’t board-certified in “providerology.” It’s as if one has to continually fight for the “honor” of helping people. Think about all you’ve gone through to get to where you are. You are doing it to help people, yet so much is asked of you for that “honor.” After a while, someone starts to wake up and realize it’s not an honor-it’s for suckers. At a certain point, pragmatism has to trump idealism.

Remember medical school? “I love physiology! I can’t wait to apply it everyday in practice!”

No, sonny boy. You don’t love physiology. When you’re forced to document every time you breathe within 10 feet of a patient, when you’re forced to tell the OR RN what ASA classification the patient is (why do they need to know this?!), when you’re forced to sign, date, and time your name four times for every patient you take care of, you ain’t likin’ physiology, I assure you. It’s a miracle CMS doesn’t demand we document our shoelace color or Social Security number on our records.

Doctors are dweebs, wimps, sheep. The smartest neutered cattle. They’ve been trained to be this way. But why? What good is a hospital or insurance company without the doctors to feed it? Someone alluded to this a few months ago, but it bears repeating/paraphrasing again: Hospitals/insurance companies/American healthcare in general are nothing without doctors, yet the doctors have been brainwashed to think it’s the other way around.

The next time some jerk administrator/RN/insurance company putz forces you to do something stupid and silly, remember all that time you spent in college typing up your organic chemistry lab reports. Remember that summer you spent studying for the MCAT while all your friends/family were out having fun. Remember all the time in medical school spent with your nose in a book, while everyone else in their 20s was already making a living. Remember coming back to your call room at 3 am intern year, after admitting yet another alcoholic vomiting blood all over you. Remember taking Step Three in the midst of an 80 hour work week. And then remember there are hundreds of cows behind you, waiting for the “honor” for them to be like you.

Are you going to be the next neutered cow?

It doesn’t matter. If it’s not you, it’ll be the person behind you.

Rinse. Repeat.
Click to expand...
The thing is, there's complaining and then there's complaining. Sure, some people complain irrationally, but there are some people who complain rationally. So, I think, the real question is whether the complaints made are reasonable complaints or unreasonable complaints.
 
bashwell said:
The thing is, there's complaining and then there's complaining. Sure, some people complain irrationally, but there are some people who complain rationally. So, I think, the real question is whether the complaints made are reasonable complaints or unreasonable complaints.
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They are reasonable and understated too... actually the present and future of the medical profession are worse than the image presented above!
 
Planktonmd said:
They are reasonable and understated too... actually the present and future of the medical profession are worse than the image presented above!
Click to expand...
That's such a broad sweeping statement. No qualifiers, caveats, or other variables to consider, etc.?
 
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Planktonmd said:
They are reasonable and understated too... actually the present and future of the medical profession are worse than the image presented above!
Click to expand...
For example, let's consider the variable of time. Let's consider the "future".

I recently got to travel in a time machine and went to the year 2072. Let me tell you, things are pretty rosy for the medical profession in the future! Doctors rule the world. Their rule on Earth lasts millennia. Basically doctors rule Earth until we colonize the entire universe. Then the medical profession rules the entire universe. Not too shabby, doctors! Not too shabby.

Granted, until 2072, the medical profession has to put up with physicians assaulting Uber drivers. But fortunately physicians end up winning the Uber-Arzt Wars, and become the Ubermensch. At that point the physicians' glorious thousand year plus reign begins. Patients chant "Ich bin ein jelly donut!" and shout many other acclaims to laud and praise the medical profession. Sure, everyone else doesn't do as well. But hey it's a brave new world.
 
bashwell said:
For example, let's consider the variable of time. Let's consider the "future".

I recently got to travel in a time machine and went to the year 2072. Let me tell you, things are pretty rosy for the medical profession in the future! Doctors rule the world. Their rule on Earth lasts millennia. Basically doctors rule Earth until we colonize the entire universe. Then the medical profession rules the entire universe. Not too shabby, doctors! Not too shabby.

Granted, until 2072, the medical profession has to put up with physicians assaulting Uber drivers. But fortunately physicians end up winning the Uber-Arzt Wars, and become the Ubermensch. At that point the physicians' glorious thousand year plus reign begins. Patients chant "Ich bin ein jelly donut!" and shout many other acclaims to laud and praise the medical profession. Sure, everyone else doesn't do as well. But hey it's a brave new world.
Click to expand...

Have you been huffing nitrous?
 
dr doze said:
The herd of cattle is surrounded by predators. The predators are attracted to all cattle but always go for two types of cattle first.

1. The fattest, juiciest
2. the noisiest.

Most choose to be a neutered bull that survives longer as opposed to a loud snorting bull that gets slaughtered earlier.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that in nature, the predators actually go for the weak and infirm first, not the strong and healthy.
 
Residents are rapidly replaceable, but physicians are in short supply in most fields. If we were simply smart enough to work together and put our collective feet down...

Seriously, imagine it. Imagine if even 50% of physicians banded together and said, "screw this, I'm not filling out your documentation. I'm doing this the right way, not your way." They couldn't fire everyone. And when no more deaths resulted, and things became more efficient, the administrators would be forced to admit that it was all pointless garbage that existed to subjugate us and create a means of sustaining their own positions, for what is an administrator without forms and orders to administrate and data with which to work?

But we'll never work together. There will be no physician rebellion, because most of us are cowardly or excessively content, not willing to take risks on that thing which we've sunk so much investment into.
 
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soorg said:
Last I checked, I wasn’t board-certified in “providerology.”
Click to expand...

I just highlighted my favorite part of this post but wholeheartedly agree with every word. I think I've found my new best friend! A very eloquent summation of the sad state of affairs that medicine is in.
 
WholeLottaGame7 said:
I'm pretty sure that in nature, the predators actually go for the weak and infirm first, not the strong and healthy.
Click to expand...

The metaphor is imperfect. Fattest juiciest means "Most Money"
Noisiest means malcontents and problem children.

Works for human predators.
 
soorg said:
The next time some jerk administrator/RN/insurance company putz forces you to do something stupid and silly, remember all that time you spent in college typing up your organic chemistry lab reports. Remember that summer you spent studying for the MCAT while all your friends/family were out having fun. Remember all the time in medical school spent with your nose in a book, while everyone else in their 20s was already making a living. Remember coming back to your call room at 3 am intern year, after admitting yet another alcoholic vomiting blood all over you. Remember taking Step Three in the midst of an 80 hour work week. And then remember there are hundreds of cows behind you, waiting for the “honor” for them to be like you..
Click to expand...
I would rather forget not remember all those things.
 
Let's do an SDN Anesthesiology meet up. Then, we can just have a group suicide.....

I jest. I jest.

Guys, look, there are major pains in the a.s every day. But, we are not alone. It's called life. We live in a bureaucratic world. Every single business I can think of has increased rules and regulations. There are too many to list. We are part of this larger trend.

We are also part of the larger circumstance of living in an increasingly competitive world. Don't like it? Yes. Probably, someone will tolerate it and be willing to take your job should you decide to "opt out".. It is what it is. We all answer to somebody.

It's a bummer that PP's are under huge pressure to sell and that our profession is undergoing consolidation. But, it's still a pretty good gig. Look at the alternatives.

I look at it simply. Live like a comfortable mid-level engineering manager, and try not to let this stuff take years off of your life. I'm personally NOT the best at this, but work with a dude who is an expert. I try to learn from him......
 
My brief take....

Think about this from the perspective of the college kid. Try to not think to hard or use any examples from your life after becoming a physician...

What job in the country is the most prestigious? Medicine.
What job has the highest pay? Medicine.
What job has a ~1% unemployment rate? Medicine.
What job has the best long-term outlook and is most resistant to downturns in the market? Mortician. Then Medicine.
What job do mom and dad really want you to do (so they can brag to their book club every other Thursday)? Medicine.



Seriously, from the perspective of your average college student looking at career options, I cannot see how anything else could be seen as a 'higher' goal than getting into medical school.

And with all other options looking less viable with each passing year (it was law school a while ago, then business school, then...), medicine not only maintains its appeal, it INCREASES its appeal because everything else looks worse.
 
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soorg said:
This is the problem with everything everyone complains about. On this forum, in the OR, in the doctor's lounge, in the office. Wherever anyone can complain about medicine.

You don't like something about your job? T.S. There's someone right behind you willing to take your spot. A never-ending supply of doctors. No wonder hospitals/insurance companies think they can treat us like garbage. They can literally demand we come into work with a reverse-mohawk and pink scrubs, forcing us to kiss the hand of any patient that spits on us after we beg them to sign our consent form. “Doctor, you should be thanking the patients for giving you the honor of taking care of them!”
Click to expand...


I find it hard to rectify your complaints with the fact that we have a shortage of physicians in this country and not enough residency spots, and those shortages are growing with our increasing population.
 
Mman said:
I find it hard to rectify your complaints with the fact that we have a shortage of physicians in this country and not enough residency spots, and those shortages are growing with our increasing population.
Click to expand...
I wonder where these legends about physician shortage are coming from, e.g. various organizations with anti-physician agendas. When I look at gaswork (or other websites), I see a bunch of mostly crappy jobs. It's like saying that there is a worker shortage for low-paying bad jobs. It is just an excuse for replacing physicians with worse, but cheaper, alternatives.

If there were a real physician shortage, the salaries would keep going up, not down. The jobs would get better, not worse. It's simple supply-demand economics.

P.S. Since I am looking for a job, I would appreciate if anybody could refer me to a good anesthesiologist(-intensivist) position. Apparently there is a shortage of physicians in this country... 🙂
 
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soorg said:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2015/10/22/u-s-medical-school-applications-set-new-record/

This.

This is the problem with everything everyone complains about. On this forum, in the OR, in the doctor's lounge, in the office. Wherever anyone can complain about medicine.

You don't like something about your job? T.S. There's someone right behind you willing to take your spot. A never-ending supply of doctors. No wonder hospitals/insurance companies think they can treat us like garbage. They can literally demand we come into work with a reverse-mohawk and pink scrubs, forcing us to kiss the hand of any patient that spits on us after we beg them to sign our consent form. “Doctor, you should be thanking the patients for giving you the honor of taking care of them!”

900 U.S. grads a year don't get a residency. You complaining about your training program? So long, chump. There are people dying to take your place.

Why do so many intelligent people continue to go to medical school? Why give up the best years of your life, put yourself through all that stress, studying, lack of sleep/food/exercise, training, DEBT, liability, unhealthy working conditions, just so you can be an indentured servant to an insurance company or “health system,” who will degrade/demoralize you to the point where they won’t even call you “doctor” anymore? Last I checked, I wasn’t board-certified in “providerology.” It’s as if one has to continually fight for the “honor” of helping people. Think about all you’ve gone through to get to where you are. You are doing it to help people, yet so much is asked of you for that “honor.” After a while, someone starts to wake up and realize it’s not an honor-it’s for suckers. At a certain point, pragmatism has to trump idealism.

Remember medical school? “I love physiology! I can’t wait to apply it everyday in practice!”

No, sonny boy. You don’t love physiology. When you’re forced to document every time you breathe within 10 feet of a patient, when you’re forced to tell the OR RN what ASA classification the patient is (why do they need to know this?!), when you’re forced to sign, date, and time your name four times for every patient you take care of, you ain’t likin’ physiology, I assure you. It’s a miracle CMS doesn’t demand we document our shoelace color or Social Security number on our records.

Doctors are dweebs, wimps, sheep. The smartest neutered cattle. They’ve been trained to be this way. But why? What good is a hospital or insurance company without the doctors to feed it? Someone alluded to this a few months ago, but it bears repeating/paraphrasing again: Hospitals/insurance companies/American healthcare in general are nothing without doctors, yet the doctors have been brainwashed to think it’s the other way around.

The next time some jerk administrator/RN/insurance company putz forces you to do something stupid and silly, remember all that time you spent in college typing up your organic chemistry lab reports. Remember that summer you spent studying for the MCAT while all your friends/family were out having fun. Remember all the time in medical school spent with your nose in a book, while everyone else in their 20s was already making a living. Remember coming back to your call room at 3 am intern year, after admitting yet another alcoholic vomiting blood all over you. Remember taking Step Three in the midst of an 80 hour work week. And then remember there are hundreds of cows behind you, waiting for the “honor” for them to be like you.

Are you going to be the next neutered cow?

It doesn’t matter. If it’s not you, it’ll be the person behind you.

Rinse. Repeat.
Click to expand...


True, medical education has done a really good job of admitting spineless kids ready to bend over backwards for everyone and everything. We are told to bow and scrape to nurses, no matter how nurses treat us, and we are taught "everybody" is vital, even though there are a lot of people around here who should be in the unemployment line because their job is bureaucratic fluff. My personality really doesn't mix well with most of my classmates. Every generation has its proportion of wolves and sheep, problem is this generation seems to be 99% sheep. I have spent time shadowing surgeons an IM docs, the difference in personality is really striking. I definitely respect the surgeons more because a lot of times they refuse to put up with crap.
 
psychMDhopefully said:
True, medical education has done a really good job of admitting spineless kids ready to bend over backwards for everyone and everything. We are told to bow and scrape to nurses, no matter how nurses treat us, and we are taught "everybody" is vital, even though there are a lot of people around here who should be in the unemployment line because their job is bureaucratic fluff. My personality really doesn't mix well with most of my classmates. Every generation has its proportion of wolves and sheep, problem is this generation seems to be 99% sheep. I have spent time shadowing surgeons an IM docs, the difference in personality is really striking. I definitely respect the surgeons more because a lot of times they refuse to put up with crap.
Click to expand...
At the same time, the surgeons themselves provide a lot of the crap in our daily lives. 😉
 
FFP said:
I wonder where these legends about physician shortage are coming from, e.g. various organizations with anti-physician agendas. When I look at gaswork (or other websites), I see a bunch of mostly crappy jobs. It's like saying that there is a worker shortage for low-paying bad jobs. It is just an excuse for replacing physicians with worse, but cheaper, alternatives.

If there were a real physician shortage, the salaries would keep going up, not down. The jobs would get better, not worse. It's simple supply-demand economics.

P.S. Since I am looking for a job, I would appreciate if anybody could refer me to a good anesthesiologist-intensivist position. Apparently there is a shortage of physicians in this country... 🙂
Click to expand...

Just because you don't like a particular job doesn't mean they aren't out there. Supply/demand only necessarily works to drive salary up in a true free market that isn't regulated. There aren't enough docs. Jobs are unfilled. Just because they don't pay enough to make you want to do it doesn't mean there isn't a shortage. The reason the pay isn't higher is that the payor mix is terrible in many places.
 
Medicine sucks. My BMW X5 doesn't have enough room for all my kids ski stuff, my lake house needs renovations and i haven't been on vacation in 6 months. WTF are you'll talking about!!!

I watch those who didn't go to college in my family and some who have, work 50-60 hour weeks doing construction outdoors in the 90 degree heat and the sub zero while snowing and I feel like i am the smart one. Those 12 years of extra studying and the 200K + of loans were easy compared to a lifetime of living in an outdated, unrepaired house, driving a 10 year old jalopy of a car, while living pay check to pay check and hunting deer to keep from having to pay for the cost of beef at the store. And its much easier to find a new contractor than a doctor.

This thread is an absurd illustration of why the average american making 40K a year ( i am the only one is my family who earns more than that) think the top 1% are a bunch of arrogant, selfish pricks.

Yes medicine is changing like every JOB changes over time. People used to drink and smoke at work, we don't do that anymore. I think the bigger problem with us Doctors is that we fail to lead into the future, we fail to be proactive stewards who protect our patients. Its easy for government to put mandates on us when what we do can have dramatic consequences to patients. When people die from airbags deploying for no reason or ignition switches have issue we all grab pitch forks but when it comes to riding medicine of its high volume of mistakes and errors which harm millions of people a year we claim people are telling us what to do. We all think we are great but most of us have no data to back that up!

We should be going to the public telling them how we are doctors will lead them into the future. When we don't lead others tell us what to do. I will say that even when a doctor like myself leads on these issues within my hospital, i get angry doctors coming to me and complaining about my innovations.

Moral of the story is that every job has it good and bad, and overtime any job will change. Its your choice to be part of the process and your choice to decide when you have had enough.

For now my life looks and feels pretty damn good.
 
While I mostly agree with you, @seinfeld, one can always find an example of doing worse for almost anybody. E.g. Most Americans who live under the poverty threshold should stop complaining, since they still live better than at least 25% of mankind. 😉

So, yes, I do feel very lucky. But, at the same time, I feel that it's less and less worth a life of sacrifices.
 
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Mman said:
Just because you don't like a particular job doesn't mean they aren't out there. Supply/demand only necessarily works to drive salary up in a true free market that isn't regulated. There aren't enough docs. Jobs are unfilled. Just because they don't pay enough to make you want to do it doesn't mean there isn't a shortage. The reason the pay isn't higher is that the payor mix is terrible in many places.
Click to expand...

Where is this true free market that is unregulated?
 
Random Resident said:
Where is this true free market that is unregulated?
Click to expand...

It doesn't really exist.
The closest would be having your own business and offering something innovative that no one (or not many) are offering. Big business may potentially be in the mix, but even they face some regulation.
 
FFP said:
I wonder where these legends about physician shortage are coming from, e.g. various organizations with anti-physician agendas. When I look at gaswork (or other websites), I see a bunch of mostly crappy jobs. It's like saying that there is a worker shortage for low-paying bad jobs. It is just an excuse for replacing physicians with worse, but cheaper, alternatives.

If there were a real physician shortage, the salaries would keep going up, not down. The jobs would get better, not worse. It's simple supply-demand economics.

P.S. Since I am looking for a job, I would appreciate if anybody could refer me to a good anesthesiologist(-intensivist) position. Apparently there is a shortage of physicians in this country... 🙂
Click to expand...

You seem like a decent guy.
The best of jobs as you know are via connections and hence word of mouth.
Just because Gasworks doesn't have anything of value posted doesn't mean they aren't out there. There are groups that would rather interview based on quality than quantity and quality is based on a referral system of a few. Overall, there is a shortage and yes it may be in the rural areas, but you can still hack it into a good market with good credentials and good connections. I'd talk to Seinfeld and your residency/fellowship faculty. Also, maybe someone in your old job knows a person or two. Never know who can hook you up.
 
Agreed-medicine does a fantastic job of admitting bend-over types. They’ve invested so much time/effort/money into their pursuit, so who wants to rock the boat and risk blowing it all? BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN THEY SHOULD BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF!! But they are, because there’s so many others coming down the pike.


http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2015/01/physicians-must-unionize-heres.html

A specialty-specific or national doctor union would be awesome. They’ve got the guns, but we’ve got the numbers.

Either that or I’m just going to tell every med student to quit and become an insurance CEO.

http://www.fiercehealthpayer.com/st...ce-ceo-pay-exceeds-10-million-2014/2015-04-10

$15 million to essentially look at balance sheets and reorganize/make adjustments so that your company can make even more money? I don’t see these guys taking call/working 24 hour shifts/deciphering MOCA.

And before anyone says “Hey, those guys are responsible for millions of people, they have MBAs, they’re under a lot of stress,” I’m calling BS. Anyone who has the brains and work ethic to get an MD and get through residency can get an MBA. You don’t even get interviewed for acceptance into an MBA program. There is no residency. There is no recertification. And if you screw up, no one dies. Any one of us screws up more than 2-3x, we can’t get malpractice coverage, let alone the dead patient. I’ve heard of MDs getting MBAs while practicing, but I’ve NEVER heard of an MBA getting an MD while they’re still working.

A group suicide isn’t the answer-the headlines alone would be too painful: “Mass medical provider suicide causing structural problems at local health system. Throughput disrupted as system CEO calls for new metrics.”
 
I'm pretty sure if the CEO lost a crapola of $$ they would be fired and I doubt anyone of value would hire them. Some may become suicidal too. I highly doubt it is an easy job, it's not our stress but it's a different type of stress.
 
FFP said:
While I mostly agree with you, @seinfeld, one can always find an example of doing worse for almost anybody. E.g. Most Americans who live under the poverty threshold should stop complaining, since they still live better than at least 25% of mankind. 😉

So, yes, I do feel very lucky. But, at the same time, I feel that it's less and less worth a life of sacrifices.
Click to expand...

Sorry everyone for the rant i am in the midst of a set of complex negotiations where we are trying to find a balance between how best to service our community and what impact that could have on revenue ( and control over ones business model). I am all for free markets but even in a free market a business has to make deals/compromises to expand the broader market.

The return of investment in medicine declining for sure and the "our" poor still live better than most of the world, won't deny that.
 
soorg said:
Either that or I’m just going to tell every med student to quit and become an insurance CEO.



And before anyone says “Hey, those guys are responsible for millions of people, they have MBAs, they’re under a lot of stress,” I’m calling BS. Anyone who has the brains and work ethic to get an MD and get through residency can get an MBA. You don’t even get interviewed for acceptance into an MBA program. There is no residency. There is no recertification. And if you screw up, no one dies. Any one of us screws up more than 2-3x, we can’t get malpractice coverage, let alone the dead patient. I’ve heard of MDs getting MBAs while practicing, but I’ve NEVER heard of an MBA getting an MD while they’re still working.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately only an infinitely small percentage of people with MBA's make it to that type of elite position, the majority (like 99.9%), if they are lucky enough to find a job, end up in a cubicle somewhere making a little more than minimum wage!
 
Planktonmd said:
Unfortunately only an infinitely small percentage of people with MBA's make it to that type of elite position, the majority (like 99.9%), if they are lucky enough to find a job, end up in a cubicle somewhere making a little more than minimum wage!
Click to expand...

the median salary for an MD is probably 2.5-3x higher than the median salary for an MBA. The MBA just has more 0.01% outliers than make $50M a year.
 
Planktonmd said:
Unfortunately only an infinitely small percentage of people with MBA's make it to that type of elite position, the majority (like 99.9%), if they are lucky enough to find a job, end up in a cubicle somewhere making a little more than minimum wage!
Click to expand...
Just like lawyers. Terrible job market for the majority of their graduates.
 
seinfeld said:
Medicine sucks. My BMW X5 doesn't have enough room for all my kids ski stuff, my lake house needs renovations and i haven't been on vacation in 6 months. WTF are you'll talking about!!!

I watch those who didn't go to college in my family and some who have, work 50-60 hour weeks doing construction outdoors in the 90 degree heat and the sub zero while snowing and I feel like i am the smart one. Those 12 years of extra studying and the 200K + of loans were easy compared to a lifetime of living in an outdated, unrepaired house, driving a 10 year old jalopy of a car, while living pay check to pay check and hunting deer to keep from having to pay for the cost of beef at the store. And its much easier to find a new contractor than a doctor.

This thread is an absurd illustration of why the average american making 40K a year ( i am the only one is my family who earns more than that) think the top 1% are a bunch of arrogant, selfish pricks.

Yes medicine is changing like every JOB changes over time. People used to drink and smoke at work, we don't do that anymore. I think the bigger problem with us Doctors is that we fail to lead into the future, we fail to be proactive stewards who protect our patients. Its easy for government to put mandates on us when what we do can have dramatic consequences to patients. When people die from airbags deploying for no reason or ignition switches have issue we all grab pitch forks but when it comes to riding medicine of its high volume of mistakes and errors which harm millions of people a year we claim people are telling us what to do. We all think we are great but most of us have no data to back that up!

We should be going to the public telling them how we are doctors will lead them into the future. When we don't lead others tell us what to do. I will say that even when a doctor like myself leads on these issues within my hospital, i get angry doctors coming to me and complaining about my innovations.

Moral of the story is that every job has it good and bad, and overtime any job will change. Its your choice to be part of the process and your choice to decide when you have had enough.

For now my life looks and feels pretty damn good.
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You live in the boonies. It is still relatively good there, but not in the cities.
 
I may not work in Boston NYC or LA but i certainly wouldn't consider the city where I work the "boonies". Yes, "undesirable" markets usually have to pay more, but the money still has to come from somewhere.

I would also consider that we have a payor mix which is approaching 60% GVT payors, but in order to attract and maintain CRNAs and Physicians we have to pay over 75% MGMA. This puts pressure on Hospitals for subsidies and since they have the worse payor mix due to the medical patients and the hospitals community mission to provide care and support to the poor, they too have financial pressures. As we had to do, the hospital has joined a large consortium of hospitals. The large consortium has begun to put pressure for us to lower our costs, improve efficiency to some crazy benchmarks which are unachievable, monitor "quality" and report how to improve...

Dont see all this consolidation a sign of strength in the market, "boonies" or not
 
the majority of doctors/residents do not recommend MD when asked. im just surprised that there are still so many doctors with all the negativity around
 
That's just it-there are still so many docs around, yet no one recommends it. If the endless supply of docs were to dwindle, then maybe it would turn into a better job.
 
How do you figure the job isn't worth it? If a Med Student matches into the right specialty the M.D. is STILL the best degree a person can obtain for personal and financial success.
 
Is-Med-school-worth-it2.jpg
 
You people can bitch all you want to about this job but the fact remains we are paid in the top 1% of the nation in terms of income. Sure, the hospital CEO earns 2 x most MD salaries but for every one hospital CEO there are thousands of Physicians.

If you want to roll the dice go get your MBA and hope you land that coveted .1% management job or go to Medical School where even the bottom 5% of the class can still earn $200K plus for the rest of his/her career.

MBA= roll of the dice (odds aren't even that good) your salary exceeds a Physician

MD= upper middle class lifestyle 99% of the time
 
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Atul Grover, MD, PhD, the AAMC's chief public policy officer, noted that in this year's National Resident Matching Program there were 27,293 residency slots available. "Even though U.S. MD enrollment was 20,630 this year ... DO enrollment was up 3.5%, to 7,025," he said. "So the number of first-year students in U.S. MD or DO programs is now 27,655, as opposed to first-year residency positions available in the match at 27,293."

Medical schools have seen around a 1% annual growth in residency slots, he added. "That's been possible because our teaching hospitals believe it's very important to fortify their mission and do what they can to respond to shortages, and they've been able to invest any clinical revenue they have in training programs."

"Our concern moving forward is that with the number of U.S. medical students rising 2% to 3% each year, at some point, that less than 1% growth in residency programs is going to be a problem stacking up against medical school growth, and that's not considering the number of U.S. citizens or permanent residents who are currently going abroad for medical school and coming back and finding only about half of them are successful getting a residency," Grover said.


http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/MedicalEducation/54236
 
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