The problem with low veterinary experience hours..

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jenkxo said:
Long story short, I have learned posting on SDN unfortunately is not a good place to have a healthy conversation.
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I have to say I completely disagree with this. On multiple occasions, I have posted that my family owns pet stores that sell animals. There are plenty of people here that do not appreciate what my family does (and has been doing for 100 years). I totally understand why. In the time I have been posting here, I have only had one negative experience with someone being rude to me about it. All the other people who have messaged me or replied to threads and asked there have been pretty understanding and open to hearing about the experiences I have. That's a lot better than how I get treated elsewhere in regards to the subject. Pretty healthy conversations, actually.

In short, if the people here are nice to people who own pet stores, they are pretty nice people in my book. There aren't many times when the comments get out of hand. This thread is a good example of people expressing their opinions and their experiences, just like you did. That's the entire point, right? Thing is, when you post stuff like this, the burden of proof falls on you to prove your point. That's why everyone is asking for proof. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, as we have all learned in our various science courses. We need statistics, figures, and data. Show us the number of people who drop out or regret their choices in the form of survey data, or really anything. But saying that everyone with low hours are going to be at a disadvantage is not true.
 
jenkxo said:
I have personally met and spoke to individuals that are choosing to pursue other careers because they didn't understand what they were getting themselves into. I guess it is hard to argue this point to others if they haven't been exposed to individuals that feel this way. I have worked with several doctors that after working in vet med have switched into different fields. This comes from personal experience like I've stated.
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Let me impart some advice that will help you with evidence based medicine, epidemiology and life in general: The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
 
I know what I said, I said "veterinary experience/veterinary setting", that doesn't take away from the other ways people can get experience. Who said that I said specifically working in a vet hospital? Veterinary research, animal bio mechanics, ect. If I am not mistaken, those are veterinary settings, are they not??

I will not find people commenting here that can agree with my point, because the students that are done with veterinary medicine aren't on the pre-vet forums of SDN.

And yes I really do think those who are disillusioned now could have figured it out before hand if they had more experience., that is exactly my point!
 
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jenkxo said:
Once again, it seems like everyone is going to twist and turn what I have said, taking things to an extreme. And this is becoming a waste of my time rebutting comments that don't make sense.
I am not insulting any new graduates, my argument if anything is aimed at the schools that do look at grades more so then experience. And stating that I believe anyone looking into veterinary school without good experience before is doing themselves a disfavor. And yes I do question those who have low veterinary experience, because sometimes those students are taking a seat away from someone who maybe knew for there entire life they wanted to be a veterinarian.

I have personally met and spoke to individuals that are choosing to pursue other careers because they didn't understand what they were getting themselves into. I guess it is hard to argue this point to others if they haven't been exposed to individuals that feel this way. I have worked with several doctors that after working in vet med have switched into different fields. This comes from personal experience like I've stated.

To those that have graduated, made it through vet medicine with the same passion they had when they first started, getting into vet med with a slight understanding of what veterinary medicine is about, your lucky. I guess regardless of what I read here, I still hold the opinion that vet schools should accept more students based on a good balance of long term experience, not students who have spent their undergrad heavily focusing on grades. As someone who occasionally assisted adcom work during my residency, I can assure you the latter is not the case.

Peace out people of sdn.
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Having wanted to be a vet since you were a little kid does not outweigh being able to handle the academic rigor and intensity of higher education. Grades ARE important, because we aren't just mechanorobots who do surgery. We need to understand medicine in all its parts. In addition, the general rule of admitting people to vet school IS a balance of experience and grades...I don't know where you are getting this idea that hordes of people are getting into vet school with no experience and 4.0s.

Lol. I literally had people tell me that in school. That I took a seat away from someone who wanted to be a "real" veterinarian because I had little clinical experience and didn't even want to be a GP anyways.

Now they call me for consults. :laugh:

jenkxo said:
I know what I said, I said veterinary experience, that doesn't take away from the other ways people can get experience. Who said that I said specifically working in a vet hospital? I said veterinary hospital/veterinary setting. (via biomedical research, governmental regulatory bodies, international work, ect) If I am not mistaken, those are veterinary settings, are they not??
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You know darn well you were talking about clinical experience when you said veterinary setting and not any of these things. 🙄Stop backtracking.
 
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jenkxo said:
I am not insulting any new graduates, my argument if anything is aimed at the schools that do look at grades more so then experience.
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more so than experience

jenkxo said:
And stating that I believe anyone looking into veterinary school without good experience before is doing themselves a disfavor.
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good experience beforehand is doing himself/herself

jenkxo said:
And yes I do question those who have low veterinary experience, because sometimes those students are taking a seat away from someone who maybe knew for there entire life they wanted to be a veterinarian.
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maybe knew for their (technically his/her) entire life (technically he/she) wanted

jenkxo said:
I have worked with several doctors that after working in vet med have switched into different fields.
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several doctors who

jenkxo said:
To those that have graduated, made it through vet medicine with the same passion they had when they first started, getting into vet med with a slight understanding of what veterinary medicine is about, your lucky.
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To those who have graduated...you're lucky

---

Sorry to jump on the troll-bashing bandwagon, but it's a compulsion for me.

This was also the metric by which I judged whether people were worth replying to during my brief stint on OKCupid, and the reason I stopped myself several times today from actually responding to the content of your posts.

To each her own pretension. 😀
 
jenkxo said:
Once again, it seems like everyone is going to twist and turn what I have said, taking things to an extreme. And this is becoming a waste of my time rebutting comments that don't make sense.
I am not insulting any new graduates, my argument if anything is aimed at the schools that do look at grades more so then experience. And stating that I believe anyone looking into veterinary school without good experience before is doing themselves a disfavor. And yes I do question those who have low veterinary experience, because sometimes those students are taking a seat away from someone who maybe knew for there entire life they wanted to be a veterinarian.

I have personally met and spoke to individuals that are choosing to pursue other careers because they didn't understand what they were getting themselves into. I guess it is hard to argue this point to others if they haven't been exposed to individuals that feel this way. I have worked with several doctors that after working in vet med have switched into different fields. This comes from personal experience like I've stated.

To those that have graduated, made it through vet medicine with the same passion they had when they first started, getting into vet med with a slight understanding of what veterinary medicine is about, your lucky. I guess regardless of what I read here, I still hold the opinion that vet schools should accept more students based on a good balance of long term experience, not students who have spent their undergrad heavily focusing on grades.

Peace out people of sdn.
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What is "good" experience? 50 hours? 100? 500? 1,000? 10,000? At what point is the experience "good"?

What about the quality of experience.. I'd hate to see an applicant with 500 hours experience with Dr. Pol.... ugh. I'd gladly take someone that has only 100 hours with a decent vet who can at least appreciate basic standards of vet med. You forget that quantity does not equal quality.

I don't care if you have a million hours of experience you will NEVER be prepared for what vet school is like. You do not KNOW what being a vet is like when working as a tech. Yes, you deal with the clients, the patients, etc but the ball game changes when YOU are responsible and the only way to 100% know what that is like, is to become a vet. Exposure is important, knowing that clients can be mean and vet med can be heart breaking is important, but you don't need a zillion hours to realize this. Also, that is only one small area of vet med.... there are so many others.

There is also no level of experience that will prepare you for the hard work, debt and "poor" salary.... you can't possibly understand that until you live it. And many vets get burnt out by this and not so much what the job entails, though the job can burn people out too.

You really don't get it. You haven't even been through a single day of vet school and you act as if you have the big solution to some giant problem that has NEVER been founded within the profession.

I am kind of hoping you got accepted to a UK school, so you can see how ignorant you really are.
 
sorasea said:
more so than experience


good experience beforehand is doing himself/herself


maybe knew for their (technically his/her) entire life (technically he/she) wanted


several doctors who


To those who have graduated...you're lucky

---

Sorry to jump on the troll-bashing bandwagon, but it's a compulsion for me.

This was also the metric by which I judged whether people were worth replying to during my brief stint on OKCupid, and the reason I stopped myself several times today from actually responding to the content of your posts.

To each her own pretension. 😀
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And you have hit why the "smarter then most" the OP had up for a while was so damn funny to me. I wish I had screen shot that one.
 
Also, a lot of people gain their 'veterinary experience' by shadowing--do these people not deserve to be vets? Never placed a catheter before last week (and yes I was a 'tech' before vet school).
 
jenkxo said:
Once again, it seems like everyone is going to twist and turn what I have said, taking things to an extreme. And this is becoming a waste of my time rebutting comments that don't make sense.
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We can only judge you on what you say. If you say things like "I'm really bothered by ...." - then we assume that's what you mean and that you're viewing the people in question negatively. If you mean something different, you should say something different. And if 1 person (you) says one thing, and you don't like how a lot of other people interpret it ..... maybe you should consider that in all likelihood you communicated poorly, rather than everyone ELSE misinterpreting you. That's just common sense.

jenkxo said:
And yes I do question those who have low veterinary experience, because sometimes those students are taking a seat away from someone who maybe knew for there entire life they wanted to be a veterinarian.
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Ah. So your claim is that the ranking for getting into vet school should be based on who has wanted to be a vet for the longest period of time?

You are a troll, aren't you? You stated a (stupid, in my opinion) point, asked people to comment, and then went bat**** crazy when people didn't all jump in line to say "Yeah! You're totally on track!" Grow up. If you ask for opinions, suck it up when you don't like them.
 
I only decided I wanted to be a vet in undergrad (sophomore year, in fact). Guess they should take away my seat. 🙄🙄🙄
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Now they call me for consults. :laugh:
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For the record, I am never calling you for a consult, because I know how much you'll make me suffer. "Really, LIS? REALLY? You're calling me to ask about THAT? Did you not pay attention AT ALL IN SYSTEMIC PATHOLOGY?"
 
LetItSnow said:
For the record, I am never calling you for a consult, because I know how much you'll make me suffer. "Really, LIS? REALLY? You're calling me to ask about THAT? Did you not pay attention AT ALL IN SYSTEMIC PATHOLOGY?"
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House-Laugh-to-Sad.gif
 
NStarz said:
I only decided I wanted to be a vet in undergrad (sophomore year, in fact). Guess they should take away my seat. 🙄🙄🙄
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Same. AND I had less than 200 hours of vet experience in a clinic. Damn, and I was so close to graduation too!

And just because I'm feeling snarky...

When you write "Peace out" and then reply again anyway, your flounce loses its dramatic appeal. Just for future reference.
 
Coquette22 said:
Same. AND I had less than 200 hours of vet experience. Damn, and I was so close to graduation too!
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It's ok, Coquette, we can go be vet assistants or something together, since I only had 400-500 or so. Although I suppose since I have double your pre-vet experience that makes me doubly competent and more prepared than you. So suck it, n00b! 🙂

Yer gonna have to let your internship peeps know you won't be showing up..... 🙂
 
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Well over 2,000hrs in SA and some scatterings in LA and FA... does that mean my IS should auto-accept me?
 
jenkxo said:
I will not find people commenting here that can agree with my point, because the students that are done with veterinary medicine aren't on the pre-vet forums of SDN.
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Actually not true. We've had a couple that stick around. @flyhi for instance.
jenkxo said:
And this is becoming a waste of my time rebutting comments that don't make sense.
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And yet, we keep doing it 🙂

jenkxo said:
I have personally met and spoke to individuals that are choosing to pursue other careers because they didn't understand what they were getting themselves into. I guess it is hard to argue this point to others if they haven't been exposed to individuals that feel this way. I have worked with several doctors that after working in vet med have switched into different fields. This comes from personal experience like I've stated.

To those that have graduated, made it through vet medicine with the same passion they had when they first started, getting into vet med with a slight understanding of what veterinary medicine is about, your lucky. I guess regardless of what I read here, I still hold the opinion that vet schools should accept more students based on a good balance of long term experience, not students who have spent their undergrad heavily focusing on grades.
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I've met more and spoke to more individuals about vet med, I bet. And it's why I talk to current and prospective students about debt. Because that has been one of the biggest issues, not lack of hours.

You're wrong. Some of the best vets I've met have had the least hours before vet school.

Now quit trying to convince yourself that you're better than others.
 
LetItSnow said:
That's a super easy question to answer. For people like
@jenkxo the answer is always "One hour less than I had".....
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Wow that was a good one.. I'm going to go enjoy my life full of happiness, while you sit and try to insult someone over the Internet.
If any one of you that have come here to twist my argument, had half the amount of balls to ever say what you've said to someone in real life, maybe then you would actually grow a brain cell to read what I have said. I feel sad for the clients, patients and employees that's have to work with you. You insult medicine, a field that is about caring and being respectful to others. Not once have I insulted or been disrespectful to anyone on this thread; get over yourselves. Its pathetic.
 
It's a play on veterinary terms telling people to feel free to respond and disagree. Being jerks and twisting my arguement, calling names is not what I meant. I thought I was talking to normal, respectful people, apparently not.
 
jenkxo said:
Wow that was a good one.. I'm going to go enjoy my life full of happiness, while you sit and try to insult someone over the Internet.
If any one of you that have come here to twist my argument, had half the amount of balls to ever say what you've said to someone in real life, maybe then you would actually grow a brain cell to read what I have said. I feel sad for the clients, patients and employees that's have to work with you. You insult medicine, a field that is about caring and being respectful to others. Not once have I insulted or been disrespectful to anyone on this thread; get over yourselves. Its pathetic.
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Actually, LIS is turning out to be a well-reasoned, respectful vet. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he will be a bad doctor (Burnett's law anyone?)
 
jenkxo said:
Wow that was a good one.. I'm going to go enjoy my life full of happiness, while you sit and try to insult someone over the Internet.
If any one of you that have come here to twist my argument, had half the amount of balls to ever say what you've said to someone in real life, maybe then you would actually grow a brain cell to read what I have said. I feel sad for the clients, patients and employees that's have to work with you. You insult medicine, a field that is about caring and being respectful to others. Not once have I insulted or been disrespectful to anyone on this thread; get over yourselves. Its pathetic.
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But.. you've pretty much insulted anyone that was accepted with low hours that are currently succeeding in the field. Pot, meet kettle much?
 
dyachei said:
Actually, LIS is turning out to be a well-reasoned, respectful vet. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he will be a bad doctor (Burnett's law anyone?)
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If anything, I'd respect a vet who had the gall to call me out on my bull****e.
 
jenkxo said:
Wow that was a good one.. I'm going to go enjoy my life full of happiness, while you sit and try to insult someone over the Internet.
If any one of you that have come here to twist my argument, had half the amount of balls to ever say what you've said to someone in real life, maybe then you would actually grow a brain cell to read what I have said. I feel sad for the clients, patients and employees that's have to work with you. You insult medicine, a field that is about caring and being respectful to others. Not once have I insulted or been disrespectful to anyone on this thread; get over yourselves. Its pathetic.
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Oh noez! A close-minded idiot of a pre-vet says I'm going to be a bad doctor! Help!

The very first sentence you posted in this thread was insulting and disrespectful.

Keep playing. Maybe you'll say something intelligent just by random chance.
 
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WhtsThFrequency said:
I wanted to be a rock star since I was a little kid. People who haven't spent as much time as me singing in the shower into a hairbrush and going to acoustic sets and listening to Cher shouldn't get in, because they don't understand the field.
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I still want to be a rockstar.


And as far as my car and the open road is concerned... I am! ^_^
 
jenkxo said:
It's a play on veterinary terms telling people to feel free to respond and disagree. Being jerks and twisting my arguement, calling names is not what I meant. I thought I was talking to normal, respectful people, apparently not.
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No one is twisting your arguments, you fail to prove your point that you have made loud and clear.

People with "low" experience hours shouldn't be vets.. but you have yet to describe what makes "low" hours. And no, people with "low" hours aren't undeserving of being in vet school. They are just as capable as those with more hours. You are not a respectful person and even worse of all is that you refuse to see it.
 
jenkxo said:
Wow that was a good one.. I'm going to go enjoy my life full of happiness, while you sit and try to insult someone over the Internet.
If any one of you that have come here to twist my argument, had half the amount of balls to ever say what you've said to someone in real life, maybe then you would actually grow a brain cell to read what I have said. I feel sad for the clients, patients and employees that's have to work with you. You insult medicine, a field that is about caring and being respectful to others. Not once have I insulted or been disrespectful to anyone on this thread; get over yourselves. Its pathetic.
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wow.... just wow...

You post an insulting thread, with a whiny "I am better than other people" comment, get called out on it, and on all your mis-statements, and then double down and say this?

I promise you IRL I have the balls to argue with brain dead people with lame arguments like these.

You are the one who needs to get over yourself.
Your view is insulting, not to mention flawed, and easily disproven by reality. Take a look in the mirror and figure out who has the problem.
 
StartingoverVet said:
I promise you IRL I have the balls to argue with brain dead arguments like these.

.
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I used to go to vet school with someone just like this person at Edinburgh. And I actually put her in her place when she went around claiming how she is God's gift to vet med because her dad owns a clinic and when she started pointing out all the people that would fail because *she* didn't think they were good enough. So, yes, I also have the balls to say these things to someone like this IRL and I have. She was (still is) such a distasteful person and then she whined when no one wanted to be her roommate... :laugh:
 
I know we're kind of past this point but i wanted to chime in on pet ownership lacking merit. I have only owned mostly cats and dogs throughout my life (a few reptiles here and there) and i wasnt involved in breeding or showing them. However, I think pet ownership is important because it helps breed compassion for your clients. I feel that I can better empathize with a client thinking of euthanizing an animal because I've made the same choice several times. I can better understand the burden of medical complications because I've shouldered them. I had several animals growing up with acute and chronic (a cat with CKD and an epileptic dog) health problems that educated me on the daily struggle pet ownership involves. I think relegating this characteristic to wasted space is unfair.
 
ConwayKitty13 said:
I know we're kind of past this point but i wanted to chime in on pet ownership lacking merit. I have only owned mostly cats and dogs throughout my life (a few reptiles here and there) and i wasnt involved in breeding or showing them. However, I think pet ownership is important because it helps breed compassion for your clients. I feel that I can better empathize with a client thinking of euthanizing an animal because I've made the same choice several times. I can better understand the burden of medical complications because I've shouldered them. I had several animals growing up with acute and chronic (a cat with CKD and an epileptic dog) health problems that educated me on the daily struggle pet ownership involves. I think relegating this characteristic to wasted space is unfair.
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I doubt animal experience is a big deal to begin with, but it is on the application so... I tend to agree with you.
I believe there was even guidance on VMCAS that ownership is not enough, you actually have to care for it some manner.

Still, no one is getting into vet school on the back of their fluffy experience. OP just has to look at the accepted applicant thread to understand that.
 
I have discovered why I won't make a good vet... not wanting it at a young enough age...

has nothing to do with the fact that I still can't figure out this 67.846 degree dorsal plantarodorsal plantaromedial lateral caudal rostral oblique view of the equine navicular bone on radiograph....
 
jenkxo said:
If any one of you that have come here to twist my argument, had half the amount of balls to ever say what you've said to someone in real life, maybe then you would actually grow a brain cell to read what I have said. I feel sad for the clients, patients and employees that's have to work with you. You insult medicine, a field that is about caring and being respectful to others. Not once have I insulted or been disrespectful to anyone on this thread; get over yourselves. Its pathetic.
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The fact that you feel that your points have been twisted shows one fact very blatantly: miscommunication. Again, it is on you to show and prove your point clearly and succinctly so that there is no miscommunication and that your point has not been misinterpreted. That is your responsibility. since you feel that you are being misinterpreted on this thread, then you missed the mark on explaining your point.

Moreover, how is it helping your argument to act insulting back by posting this entire statement? It is showing a lack of maturity. We have read what you wrote and have explained our perception of it. It actually started out pretty well.

You did insult people. 1) when you said that people with low hours are doing themselves a dis-service. Like some have said, you have not explained how low is low. If you were to say 10 hours, I would agree. But if you said 100, I would disagree. As someone waitlisted with 135 hours, then rejected with 1100 hours, I feel your point is off the mark. 2) when you said that those who have wanted to be a vet longer should get more consideration. Why? They have as much right to get the DVM/VMD if they work for it. Do people who become baptized later on in life deserve to reach Christian heaven less than those baptized as babies? 3) claiming that we don't have the drive to confront people on their crap in real life. You have no idea on the details of our lives. I have no problem telling people to pick up their cigarette butts in the parking lot so I certainly would have no problem calling someone out in an academic setting when they are referring to their colleagues in a poor manner such as this.
 
I don't really think it's that much of a surprise to get SOME backlash from the community given that you basically insulted a bunch of them. I can honestly say that after my first 250 hrs or so of shadowing/working, I haven't learned a whole lot more. I can't be a vet tech so I'm basically stuck in the assisting role all the time. I've learned that veterinarians can range from idiots and bigots to compassionate and caring individuals, but my passion honestly hasn't changed much. You see something once and that's great, but then you do it a thousand times over and eh, you're not really learning anything new. I don't blame schools for placing a heavy emphasis on academics, and saying that this is a bad thing is sort of.....Well it comes across as though you don't respect the schools that do this, when they've all been in this field for many multiples of the years you've been alive.
 
jenkxo said:
......However, I see how if someone goes into vet research that makes sense and you would have vet experience, I agree with that statement. But that was not my point and I am sorry if I didn't make my argument 100% clear.

Those applicants that go into vet school with no research and no vet experience I feel are doing themselves a disfavor. Anyone can type into the search bar here, type low experience, and see that there are people that apply with the low amount of hours, I still think they are doing themselves a huge disservice.
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But that's not what you said in your first post:

jenkxo said:
Long story short, I am super bothered by applicants that are getting in with low veterinary experience hours. .....And to those who are reading this with low veterinary hours, you are really putting yourself at a disadvantage not only in school, but in your future as a vet.
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There you talk about having a low number of hours, not having NO experience. And as for whether or not they are doing themselves a disservice.....well, that's different than saying that schools shouldn't accept them.
 
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