The sky is FALLING!

[LADoc00]

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ASCP Action Alert:
Stop Pharmacists from Becoming Laboratory Directors

California legislation has been introduced that would allow pharmacists to assume leadership positions in laboratories. California Assembly Woman Barbara Matthews introduced two bills, Assembly Bill 1370 and Assembly Bill 896, which together would add pharmacists to the definition of "laboratory director" and allow them to direct clinical laboratories that provide "routine patient assessment procedures". Passage of this legislation would contradict both federal research results and ASCP public policy.
Please write your Assembly member today, and help put a stop to legislation that would allow pharmacists to run laboratories

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Log onto ASCP’s e-Advocacy today: http://capwiz.com/ascpath/mail/oneclick_compose/?alertid=7489811



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[DasN]

Great site,

signed up and got involved, it was very easy. I would encourage everyone to do the same as well, these are decisions that will/do effect us directly made by people who have a poor understanding of our field.

 

[bananaface]

I was a butthead in your absence. I see that you have plucked the torch from my hands.

Why should a pharmacist not be permitted to occupy such a position, pray tell? Give me a seious answer and not some turf-war driven BS.

 

[DasN]

Well maybe we could run your pharmacies. I like this trend maybe Ill just hop into a field like investment banking, hey i have a bank account that should be good enough, or maybe neurosurgery w/o training that would be great. I always wanted to compose a symphony, hey i can move my hands... just think of all of that cash no training!!! AWESOME!!! And of course im sure everyone would trust my good judgement...
this is not a personal attack on you banana ( if you were a dentist you probably wouldnt have replied) and its is a little more complicated than a "turf war". Well if you wish to continue go ahead and tell me why a pharmacist should hold that title and what you know about lab medicine, and have you had any formal training in lab medicine, and could you handle this responsibility, testify in a court of law to your mastery of this profession if under lawsuit.......

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Agreed. With all this talk about how there are too many residents being trained for available jobs, what we don't need is to open up pathology positions to outsiders.

 

[LADoc00]

I was a butthead in your absence. I see that you have plucked the torch from my hands.

Why should a pharmacist not be permitted to occupy such a position, pray tell? Give me a seious answer and not some turf-war driven BS.

The quick and dirty answer would be if you were on call and were handed this pleural fluid cytology:

What would you do as a pharmacist? The idea is near absurdity. It would be like letting a fighter pilot do resections of acoustic neuromas.

 

[bananaface]

Pharmacies often have non-pharmacists participating in management, especially in the hospital setting. They do have to have a licensed pharmacist with the title of "manager" since that individual is accountable to the DEA and state board of pharmacy for the security of the drugs involved, adherence to drug related statutes, etc. But, there are retail sotres that are owned and operated by non-pharmacists. They just have to have a pharmacist hired to manage the drugs.

I am not saying that I as a P2 pharmacy student have the expertise to manage a lab. What I am saying is that in the course of my career, I may very well obtain that expertise if I chose to, unless there is some duty always delegated to a lab director that would require he or she to be an MD/DO. It's not as if any degree itself would qualify one to be a lab director. No matter what there is extra training involved. It kind of irks me to be presumed incapable of obtaining this additional experience. Pharmacists can do residencies in specialty fields.

I did have the opportunity to take a diagnostics course this past fall, but not all pharmacy students get that opportunity. It was taught through the medicinal chemistry department. We mostly focused on the chemical basis behind common lab tests seen by pharmacists in the hospital settings and which drugs confound the outcome of various tests. If I was interested in futher study I could look into taking classes outside of my department for elective credit or arrange for self-study. I'm not though, so it's a moot point.

 

[bananaface]

Agreed. With all this talk about how there are too many residents being trained for available jobs, what we don't need is to open up pathology positions to outsiders.

This is a legitimate answer. Thank you.

 

[bananaface]

The quick and dirty answer would be if you were on call and were handed this pleural fluid cytology:

What would you do as a pharmacist? The idea is near absurdity. It would be like letting a fighter pilot do resections of acoustic neuromas.

Undoubtedly, I would not be on call as a non-pathologist. In a hospital pharmacies we have administrators who would not know how to check an off an IV bag made by a pharmacy technician. Does that make you feel better?

 

[deschutes]

It kind of irks me to be presumed incapable of obtaining this additional experience. Pharmacists can do residencies in specialty fields.

I don't know what pharmacy residencies are like, but unless that residency was a pathology residency of some sort, I really don't see how the path leads to 'directing clinical laboratories that provide "routine patient assessment procedures"'.

Even being an MD doesn't qualify one to be a lab director, so I don't understand the rationale behind having a pharmacist as lab director.

I would never claim to be able to compound drugs, for instance. Sure I could go to pharm school, but then I would be an MD-pharmacist (not to mention quite insane).

Again, this is not against you Nana 🙂

 

[bananaface]

I don't know what pharmacy residencies are like, but unless that residency was a pathology residency of some sort, I really don't see how the path leads to 'directing clinical laboratories that provide "routine patient assessment procedures"'.

You mean like directing an anticoag clinic? 😉

 

[DasN]

For gods sake banana why do you think this is a personal attack? In refrence to LADOCs question, What exactly do you think a lab director does? You think someone is going to pay you to pose all of the things you dont know off to a pathologist, you think someone would actually cover you as a Pharm that way. Thats insane, and stop agreeing with only those of whom you have befriended. You cant push for something if you havent the least bit of an idea of what it is. The original idea here was to inform a community of physicians to become more informed on legislation that effects their professional interest. This is what it was for not for you to become superwoman and state that you can do everything. I have never walked into CVS and told the pharm what to do, get in their business, and claim that I could do the same job (even though the fundamental nature of my profession has little to nothing to do with pharmacy). Stop getting defensive and think and research before you speak!

 

[deschutes]

You mean like directing an anticoag clinic? 😉

I only came to know about the existence of anticoag clinics in the last couple of weeks. They are clinics, aren't they? i.e. patients come in for titration of meds according to bloodwork results.

As opposed to the lab, which would actually take the blood sample, do nifty things with it which are beyond my comprehension at this point, troubleshoot any potential errors with the results and report them back to the primary physician.

 

[DasN]

if you really want to keep going you still havent told me what a Lab Director does. I have given you ample time to look it up on the internet by now. You have also failed to tell me how you as a pharm can do this job.

 

[bananaface]

For gods sake banana why do you think this is a personal attack? In refrence to LADOCs question, What exactly do you think a lab director does? You think someone is going to pay you to pose all of the things you dont know off to a pathologist, you think someone would actually cover you as a Pharm that way. Thats insane, and stop agreeing with only those of whom you have befriended. You cant push for something if you havent the least bit of an idea of what it is. The original idea here was to inform a community of physicians to become more informed on legislation that effects their professional interest. This is what it was for not for you to become superwoman and state that you can do everything. I have never walked into CVS and told the pharm what to do, get in their business, and claim that I could do the same job (even though the fundamental nature of my profession has little to nothing to do with pharmacy). Stop getting defensive and think and research before you speak!

LOL. If you think I am defensive you really do not know me very well. What I am trying to do is to understand the reasoning behind not wanting pharmacists to be in such positions. When people (Andy) give me answers that are plain and honest I am going to respond positively to them. When people give me smartass comments (like you and to a lesser extent LADOC) I am not going to accept them unless they also contain rational arguments. If people can offer me good reasons, I will accept them, regardless of the attitude which they are delivered. But, when you try to shift the burden to me it 1) doesn't help me understand **** and 2) makes it appear as if you are doing so because you can't provide a reasonable explanation to my question. So, give it a shot if you want to. But, be rational, not emotional.

 

[Leukocyte]

When I was an undergrad in Medical Technology, I was told that any one with an MD, DO, DDS, DVM, or DPM can be a lab director. He/she does not need to be a Pathologist!!!!!!

Why? How?

Beats me!!!! 😡

P.S This was in Wisconsin, I do not know about other states.

 

[DasN]

Are you ok in the head? have you read your responses? Im not the only one who thinks you have taken this personally.
YOU SAID "I was a butthead in your absence. I see that you have plucked the torch from my hands. ( what the hell is that?)

Why should a pharmacist not be permitted to occupy such a position, pray tell? Give me a seious answer and not some turf-war driven BS."

Well you have now told me that your opinion doesnt count you are delusionary and grandiose. Ill tell you why if you havent figured it out yet. Yes what andy said is true but what is also true is that as a pharm you dont have the proper training. Its that simple. Lab techs have more training and experence in the field than a pharm. OK get it now. You still dont even know what a lab director does and you want the job. Such entitlement wow you must be something! especially since you single handedly have set ruin to this thread, which was meant to inform others on current issues that pertain to them NOT YOU. If you truely are a friend to the path forum you would have supported LADOCs incentive to inform others and turn others on to the site (even if you dont care for his opinions). I cant believe that you would do that for some worthless self serving argument..... AND you still dont know what a lab director does!!

 

[LADoc00]

LOL. If you think I am defensive you really do not know me very well. What I am trying to do is to understand the reasoning behind not wanting pharmacists to be in such positions. When people (Andy) give me answers that are plain and honest I am going to respond positively to them. When people give me smartass comments (like you and to a lesser extent LADOC) I am not going to accept them unless they also contain rational arguments. If people can offer me good reasons, I will accept them, regardless of the attitude which they are delivered. But, when you try to shift the burden to me it 1) doesn't help me understand **** and 2) makes it appear as if you are doing so because you can't provide a reasonable explanation to my question. So, give it a shot if you want to. But, be rational, not emotional.

This has nothing to with pharmacists and everything to do with a$$hat politicians having no clue what a lab director does on daily basis. A lab director doesnt sit in an office and post on SDN, he/she is constantly bombarded with innumerable half-backed questions from techs and needs to have very wide expertise to put out fires. One case I remember: a resident (not I thank the Lord) was acting lab director, received a call in the middle of the night on a peds CSF fluid because the tech saw 1 thing they thought was a microorganism, resident came in and agreed and the surgeon ended up pulling a shunt out thinking it was infected. Well, when the attending came the next day, he said the CSF was in fact clean. All hell broke loose. The moral of the story is in a real lab, you have NO idea what someone might ask you so how could a non-pathologist ever hope to deal with it aside from doing a CP residency?

Its like taking say a organic chemistry grad student, and making them head of clinical chemistry at a major medical center, yes both have the WORD chemistry in them but other than that they are completely different.

 

[bigfrank]

This has nothing to with pharmacists and everything to do with a$$hat politicians having no clue what a lab director does on daily basis. A lab director doesnt sit in an office and post on SDN, he/she is constantly bombarded with innumerable half-backed questions from techs and needs to have very wide expertise to put out fires. One case I remember: a resident (not I thank the Lord) was acting lab director, received a call in the middle of the night on a peds CSF fluid because the tech saw 1 thing they thought was a microorganism, resident came in and agreed and the surgeon ended up pulling a shunt out thinking it was infected. Well, when the attending came the next day, he said the CSF was in fact clean. All hell broke loose. The moral of the story is in a real lab, you have NO idea what someone might ask you so how could a non-pathologist ever hope to deal with it aside from doing a CP residency?

Agreed. I signed up, thanks for the info.

 

[bananaface]

I only came to know about the existence of anticoag clinics in the last couple of weeks. They are clinics, aren't they? i.e. patients come in for titration of meds according to bloodwork results.

As opposed to the lab, which would actually take the blood sample, do nifty things with it which are beyond my comprehension at this point, troubleshoot any potential errors with the results and report them back to the primary physician.

They do INRs on-site at anticoag clinics.

 

[bananaface]

Are you ok in the head? have you read your responses? Im not the only one who thinks you have taken this personally.
YOU SAID "I was a butthead in your absence. I see that you have plucked the torch from my hands. ( what the hell is that?)

Why should a pharmacist not be permitted to occupy such a position, pray tell? Give me a seious answer and not some turf-war driven BS."

Well you have now told me that your opinion doesnt count you are delusionary and grandiose. Ill tell you why if you havent figured it out yet. Yes what andy said is true but what is also true is that as a pharm you dont have the proper training. Its that simple. Lab techs have more training and experence in the field than a pharm. OK get it now. You still dont even know what a lab director does and you want the job. Such entitlement wow you must be something! especially since you single handedly have set ruin to this thread, which was meant to inform others on current issues that pertain to them NOT YOU. If you truely are a friend to the path forum you would have supported LADOCs incentive to inform others and turn others on to the site (even if you dont care for his opinions). I cant believe that you would do that for some worthless self serving argument..... AND you still dont know what a lab director does!!

I was being jovial with LADoc, you know. 😛

I didn't say I wanted the job. If you read my posts, I actually said I didn't. 😉

I am having fun at the moment, laughing over how you think I need to get back to you right away with a full report. Come on man, this is the internet. The checks I'm writing out to send off are a little more important to me than volleying with you. You don't even comprehend what I'm saying half the time. Eh, I am just going to not respond to you because it's a waste of energy. Well, unless it amuses me. Then I'll do what I want.

 

[LADoc00]

When I was an undergrad in Medical Technology, I was told that any one with an MD, DO, DDS, DVM, or DPM can be a lab director. He/she does not need to be a Pathologist!!!!!!

Why? How?

Beats me!!!! 😡

P.S This was in Wisconsin, I do not know about other states.

This is definitely NOT the case in California, in fact not only must a lab director be a MD Physician (Im not sure about DO's as the California Business and Professional Codes that Ive read specifically state M.D.) but he or she must be board certified in Pathology (once again the difference between CP and AP is not formally addressed in the law). This was a big deal when a department I was at had their med director who has a reputable pediatric hematologist removed shortly before a government inspection.

As an aside, no pharmacist in their right mind would step into my hemelab and say hand me the controls, I dont think this is pharmacist-driven politics at ALL. It is driven by greedy politicians who want to supplant county pathologists that direct these labs now and charge six figure salaries in return.

 

[jeff2005]

Are you ok in the head? have you read your responses? Im not the only one who thinks you have taken this personally.
YOU SAID "I was a butthead in your absence. I see that you have plucked the torch from my hands. ( what the hell is that?)

Why should a pharmacist not be permitted to occupy such a position, pray tell? Give me a seious answer and not some turf-war driven BS."

Well you have now told me that your opinion doesnt count you are delusionary and grandiose. Ill tell you why if you havent figured it out yet. Yes what andy said is true but what is also true is that as a pharm you dont have the proper training. Its that simple. Lab techs have more training and experence in the field than a pharm. OK get it now. You still dont even know what a lab director does and you want the job. Such entitlement wow you must be something! especially since you single handedly have set ruin to this thread, which was meant to inform others on current issues that pertain to them NOT YOU. If you truely are a friend to the path forum you would have supported LADOCs incentive to inform others and turn others on to the site (even if you dont care for his opinions). I cant believe that you would do that for some worthless self serving argument..... AND you still dont know what a lab director does!!

DasN, you need to chill.

 

[bananaface]

This has nothing to with pharmacists and everything to do with a$$hat politicians having no clue what a lab director does on daily basis. A lab director doesnt sit in an office and post on SDN, he/she is constantly bombarded with innumerable half-backed questions from techs and needs to have very wide expertise to put out fires. One case I remember: a resident (not I thank the Lord) was acting lab director, received a call in the middle of the night on a peds CSF fluid because the tech saw 1 thing they thought was a microorganism, resident came in and agreed and the surgeon ended up pulling a shunt out thinking it was infected. Well, when the attending came the next day, he said the CSF was in fact clean. All hell broke loose. The moral of the story is in a real lab, you have NO idea what someone might ask you so how could a non-pathologist ever hope to deal with it aside from doing a CP residency?

Its like taking say a organic chemistry grad student, and making them head of clinical chemistry at a major medical center, yes both have the WORD chemistry in them but other than that they are completely different.

I am totally with you on asshat politicians making medical decisions. (I will refrain from a side discussion on this as it would just be a long rant.) But, this law would eliminate the preclusion of pharmacists from lab director positions, thereby giving more discretion to companies to choose their directors. So, it's not as if anyone is being told they have to do anything. They are just being legislated additional discretion.

The above is a very good answer as well. But, you are speaking as if all labs do the same types of things. There are specialty labs out there that a pharmacist could supervise, could they not? Say a lab specializing in drug testing in association with a methadone maintenance program? See, I am not saying a pharmacist could run all types of labs. It just seems odd to me that a pharmacist would be legally precluded from supervising ANY lab.