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THE SOAP 2013 Thread
Started by ravijaua
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You missed an extremely important part of this years match. Pre-matches were pretty much gone. That was why there was a 12% "increase". It will drop much faster from this high of 57%, every year hereafter.
I was just going by the "doctor shortage" claims that I assume most have seen. If it's not true, then nevermind.
It makes perfect sense. All those IMGs who typically prematch...matched instead. Probably into the same AMG shunned programs which instead showed up in the match this year.
I don't know the particular process. Very few programs have pre-match. As an example, one program I know of this year, was basically a 5 minute interview "pimping session". If you made it to the 15 minute mark, you were pretty much offered a pre-match. Yes, you can still be in the regular match if you don't get it.
my dean said it was against the rules to make calls for me during SOAP.
Oh I think I see what you mean. But don't prematches still count in the overall match? So if 1000 IMGs prematched they would still have been considered as matched no in the stats? Or are they not considered as active participants? Yeah I don't think the AMG match rate changed much overall, and there were close to 1000 more AMGs compared to last year.
No, pre matches were outside the NRMP match system, so they did not count in the numbers in the previous matches
Got it, sorry that does make sense then of why there's a higher match rate for that group. I wonder why some AMGs would rather not match vs. IV at certain programs? I guess it's pretty interesting. Thanks for explaining that, I guess it does make a lot more sense to me.
Its still there, its just all-in/all-out policy. This was a program in NY. I won't say specifically which one. It was such a sh*tty interview process even IMGs rejected interviewing there.
IMGs getting pimped on interviews is normal, but this was like torture. Just sit in a room, no water, no nothing, wait all day till your called...get grilled, and be done.
That's because they removed prematch offers during the interview season (IMGs used to be able to do) this year. Before, depending on the specialty 15-25% of positions spots could disappear before you submit your rank list.
you need to read what i have previously written
nowhere have i ever stated they were inferior in intellect or skill, but thanks for joining in late to the conversation and commenting out of context.
that's what you think i'm saying
nowhere in this thread did i ever say that
did you bother reading this thread at all?
i mean why are you even writing a reply if you don't bother to read what i write.
poor diction on my part
it's not that a 240 IMG is the exact same applicant, and yes, of course the AMG would be clearly taken if comparing only the two. i was merely trying to express that a 240 IMG is a qualified applicant for the primary care spots available.
House Bill Would Increase Residency Positions, Ease Doctor Shortage
Washington, D.C., March 14, 2013A House bill reintroduced today by Reps. Aaron Schock (R-Ill.) and Allyson Schwartz (D-Pa.) would increase the number of Medicare-supported graduate medical education (GME) residency positions by 15,000 over five years and begin to alleviate the doctor shortage facing the nation, according to the AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges). In addition to increasing the number of residency positions, the House legislation, Training Tomorrows Doctors Today Act, also would establish Medicare GME accountability and transparency measures.
On the eve of Match Daywhen fourth-year medical students learn where they will begin their residency training required to care for patientsa number of our member medical schools are reporting highly qualified U.S. seniors not matching to residency programs, said Darrell G. Kirch, M.D., AAMC president and CEO. We have been expressing concern for some time about the inadequate number of doctor training positions because of federal caps imposed in 1997. This troubling development makes the GME increases proposed in this bill even more urgent.
Congress capped the number of federally supported residency training positions 15 years ago as part of the Balanced Budget Act. With AAMC data projecting a shortage of 90,000 doctors by 2020from primary care physicians to surgeons to specialists for childrenthe nations medical schools are on track to increase their enrollments by 30 percent. However, without an increase in the number of federally supported residency positions, these new physicians may not be able to obtain the additional training they need to practice medicine. Funding cuts to Medicare triggered by the sequester and proposed in deficit reduction plans will exacerbate the problem.
Because it takes seven to 10 years to train a doctor, Congress must act now to increase Medicares support for graduate medical education. We commend the leadership and long-term vision these lawmakers have shown in reintroducing this measure, Kirch said. Medical schools and teaching hospitals see these proposals as the beginning of a comprehensive strategy to improve the health care of all.
The Association of American Medical Colleges is a not-for-profit association representing all 141 accredited U.S. and 17 accredited Canadian medical schools; nearly 400 major teaching hospitals and health systems, including 51 Department of Veterans Affairs medical centers; and nearly 90 academic and scientific societies. Through these institutions and organizations, the AAMC represents 128,000 faculty members, 75,000 medical students, and 110,000 resident physicians. Additional information about the AAMC and U.S. medical schools and teaching hospitals is available at www.aamc.org/newsroom<http://www.aamc.org/newsroom>.
Contact
Susan Beach
Senior Director, Strategic Communications
Telephone: 202-828-0983
E-mail: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Helpful. Thank you.
Unless you are personally interested in putting up the money to fund this, zero. The taxpayers sure aren't going to want to fund the training of more future "rich doctors" at a time when the economy is tight and healthcare expenditures are viewed as far too high as is.
Yeah, I think the confusion is that we don't have good historic numbers on pre matches. But I suspect the IMGs/FMGs were actually big losers this year because although their numbers went up in the match, they lost more spots than they gained by losing the ability to prematch at all if the "all in" places. Meanwhile US seniors continued their fairly steady 93-95% match rate that has been the trend for quite a few years, despite there being more US seniors now.
I want to be in the NBA. No matter how hard I work and how much I want it, I won't succeed.
Sometimes your genes don't match your dreams. These caribbean schools are money mills that take advantage of students willing to overpay for a subpar education without an appreciation of the road that lies ahead.
And just to add - I think it's a little shortsighted to state that American grads have "everything handed to them." They got in because they were better applicants 4 years ago and earned the privilege of receiving a superior education. Any monkey can memorize biochem if you give it 6 months... but that's gonna be the same monkey that gives a patient Reglan for "constipation" caused by an obstructive colon cancer.
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Thats what we always say.
Something will give. Its the US Govt. We print money like it grows on trees. No taxpayer wanted to bail out the big banks either. A lot of them didn't want to start a multi-billion/trillion dollar war. Its not like we take a nationwide vote each time.
NIH has been saying their budget has been getting cut for decades. Telling people "Sorry, no money, no new jobs here." Yet the budget somehow doubled and tripled into the billions. They've managed to hire an exponential number of security, construct new buildings on a new campus and even a fence around the entire main campus, etc.
If we can pay for NASA, we can certainly pay-up to create jobs for ppl who manage to do something useful for our nation.
Agreed. I don't see how we are handed everything, that's pretty insulting. It's grueling to get admitted here, grueling to get through med school. I remember when I was applying to med school in the past and also applied to the Caribbean out of concern of what if I did not get in here-I remember Ross did not even require the MCAT. They also did an interview at my college campus, out of transcripts provided informally. I'm not sure how this is very rigorous. I got in of course, but obviously chose to go to an American school since I was not sure education would be all that great. And this is Ross which is considered one of the "better" Caribbean schools!
Agreed. I don't see how we are handed everything, that's pretty insulting. It's grueling to get admitted here, grueling to get through med school. I remember when I was applying to med school in the past and also applied to the Caribbean out of concern of what if I did not get in here-I remember Ross did not even require the MCAT. They also did an interview at my college campus, out of transcripts provided informally. I'm not sure how this is very rigorous. I got in of course, but obviously chose to go to an American school since I was not sure education would be all that great. And this is Ross which is considered one of the "better" Caribbean schools! I certainly think we should support US-IMGs over non-US IMG/FMGs but give me a break.
Are you seriously making the point that a California resident from one UCLA/UCSD/Berkeley with a 3.5/34 MCAT is not as strong academically as an instate resident from a Midwest/South state school with a 3.7/30? Give me a break. Not everyone who goes overseas is an incompetent idiot. Although now it is quite foolish considering DO is such a better route these days.
I am confused. I don't think I was making that point at all. Nor did I state that every IMG is an incompetent idiot...
But, in fairness, US-IMGs are pretty terrifying as potential clinicians. Program directors aren't in the business of taking anything other than the best possible applicants. There's no leg up "given" to AMGs. They simply represent better options.
How are US-IMGs terrifying as potential clinicians? Are you taught how to drape a patient more efficiently or something?
When one thinks he is entitled for something, it is hard to argue with one's belief.
But insisting that the bottom 5% of AMGs, those who SOAPed, will make safer or better doctors than the top 50% of IMGs (more than 50% of them don't match) is just ridiculous. You have no basis for this argument.
But insisting that the bottom 5% of AMGs, those who SOAPed, will make safer or better doctors than the top 50% of IMGs (more than 50% of them don't match) is just ridiculous. You have no basis for this argument.
Especially in primary care, where even PAs and DNPs can apparently do the job equally as well.
HealWithSteel86, you stated that they were better applicants 4 years ago. How else are we supposed to interpret that? Does being born in a less competitive state and going to a less competitive school with grade inflation and majoring in philosophy somehow predict they will be a better clinician than say someone who did electrical engineering and computer science @ UC Berkeley or BioE @ UCSD?? Have you rotated or worked with these supposed terrors of clinical judgement?
uh. it's usually not the bottom 5% that SOAP. More often than not it is the students who were shooting for the uber-competitive specialties and didnt quite make it (at least that is how it is at my school). Everyone who SOAP'd in m y class had success.
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Ditto. The AMG SOAP'rs I personally know and whose situations I'm aware of were both aiming for Ortho Surg. All was good in the end, though. One matched Prelim. Surg. at UCSF and will try again next year and the other SOAP'd into Rads at a reputable university program in the Midwest.
The people I know from "less competitive states" crushed their classes and did at least decently well on the MCAT. In your example, I think both could potentially be perfectly fine medical students. If one was relegated to the Caribbean despite applying to an appropriate number of US schools, then it was either due to a red flag on their application or a statistical anomaly (which is far less common than people simply diluting themselves).
I have worked with IMGs. I think foreign-born IMGs are often very talented but happen to be born elsewhere. I am yet to meet a US born IMG who served any purpose clinically. Just as some people ere not born to be NBA players, some people were not born to be physicians. It's sad, but its true. I really believe that Caribbean schools take advantage of people's hopes. And I feel very badly for people already in the pipeline bc they are gonna really have difficulty in coming years as a ton of US med schools have cropped up in the past 2 years. Even AMGs will start feeling the heat starting with the class of 2015. I don't envy your position. But I still have no interest in one of you treating me or anyone I care about.
And I agree that there are plenty of crappy US applicants that compose the bottom 5 percent. But there are also very talented people in that bottom 5 percent.
Those AMGs who did not match just because they overestimated themselves and didn't apply or rank programs not in the top N programs in the country will either SOAP successfully or match next year. Certainly, there are very strong applicants who happened to be in SOAP. But the tiny percentile of AMGs who NEVER match and cry that IMGs took THEIR spots will likey make worse doctors than the top 50% of IMGs.
Whoa. The best intern I have ever worked with came from SGU. There are MANY graduates of Caribbean schools that have gone on to be fine doctors and leaders in their fields. The Caribbean schools were not just "playing on people's hopes. Until very recently going to the Caribbean was a viable option and you were able to assume that you would be able to obtain a residency. Now, with the uncontrolled (and foolish) growth of US schools going to the Caribbean is nuts. But to say that no one from a Caribbean school "serves any clinical purpose" is flat out wrong.
To ensure that national standards are high, I believe should only allow MDs from LCME accredited institutions to obtain residencies or practice medicine, such that If an IMG wants to go to an American residency, they're free to write the MCAT, get a bachelor's degree, and go to med school in the US.
I fail to see how any of these have an impact on patient outcomes. If you feel they do, I expect some sort of study that links MCAT scores to patient outcomes.
Your move.
I took the MCAT the summer I turned 21, and I bombed it. But that summer was awesome and I pretty much raged my way through college. I had fun so I can see why you're so mad bro I'm not offended. College GPA was still 3.6 though.
Well the Caribbean was a wake up call so I buckled down and scored the US-average on my step 1. Then I got great clinical LORs. Same goes for CK and CS. Took 5 weeks max to prepare for each exam.
Oh and I matched (after applying broadly and realistically of course)
Book knowledge+compassion for other human beings= a competent intern.
The MCAT is good for placing people in US med schools. It's a standardized test just as the Steps are, so these schools want people that can perform well I get that. But some people just can't get it together until they learn a tougher lesson.
And in no way do I want to offend attending physicans who take the time to talk to us on these forums but that is my two cents. It's fine to criticize but to completely insult people who worked hard to become residents/attendings is embarrassing to the profession. There are good and bad AMGs just as there are good and bad IMGs.
Well the Caribbean was a wake up call so I buckled down and scored the US-average on my step 1. Then I got great clinical LORs. Same goes for CK and CS. Took 5 weeks max to prepare for each exam.
Oh and I matched (after applying broadly and realistically of course)
Book knowledge+compassion for other human beings= a competent intern.
The MCAT is good for placing people in US med schools. It's a standardized test just as the Steps are, so these schools want people that can perform well I get that. But some people just can't get it together until they learn a tougher lesson.
And in no way do I want to offend attending physicans who take the time to talk to us on these forums but that is my two cents. It's fine to criticize but to completely insult people who worked hard to become residents/attendings is embarrassing to the profession. There are good and bad AMGs just as there are good and bad IMGs.
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Just a premed checking in who is really sorry to hear about the troubles that you AMGs and IMGs have had with the match. From reading the posts, it seems like most of you were very deserving applicants who should have matched. As someone who hopes to matriculate to a US MD school next year, I will say that I read through this thread with trepidation. If I matriculate into the class of 2018, there will most likely be around 1000 extra AMGs matching that year compared to the class of 2016, with no corresponding increase in residency spots. Not matching would be a disaster, so if I do get into a school, I guess the only thing to really do is to apply to hundreds of programs in the specialty that I want. It may cost more money, but it's the only way to minimize chances of SOAPing/scrambling. If that means sending the ERAS to 300 IM programs out of the 400, for example, or to every ER program, so be it. Again, I'm truly sorry for what you are going through.
Just memorize 1 page of FA per day. Starting tomorrow. Get a 270. Automatic residency of your choice.
