The US MD/DO vs. foreign MBBS/MBChB/MB

[Anubis84]

I've read a past forum, from last year, discussing the distinction between the US MD (Doctor of Medicine) and DO (osteopathic doctor) vs. the British/Asian/Indian MB/MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine) degree. Some of the points discussed were:

1. The MD was a graduate degree, not an undergrad degree
2. The MD required about 8 years of combined schooling vs. 6 years for the MBBS
3. US medical training is more rigorous, etc.

I think that US med grads and foreign medical grads both have excellent training, for the most part, and that these degrees are equivalent. I have no problem with that. I do think some countries have inferior (forgive the word) facilities and medical technology in their curricula, but I think the IMGs receive good medical training.

However, the MD is a professional graduate degree. It's not equal to a PhD and is NOT a true doctorate. Even the AMA acknowledges that medical education is considered "undergraduate". I personally think an MD, however, is a graduate degree. It's a four year post-bachelor's degree in the US. In the UK, Asia, and many other countries, medical education truly is at the undergraduate level. I think this is wrong, but that's a product of the lame British system. This should change to reflect the rigours of medical school.

The problem I have with IMGs who have MB degrees is that they come to the US and get licensed, but insist on using the MD designation and they call themselves "doctor". Imagine someone from Europe or Asia coming to the US, with a bachelor's degree in biology, and claiming to have a PhD. It wouldn't be right. I have no problem with the IMG with an MB coming over here and passing exams and getting licensed, but face it, you'd be a physician, but you are NOT a doctor insofar as your degree makes you a doctor.

The term doctor was appropriated incorrectly by physicians. I think the better term should be Physician, but I think anyone who has a legally earned doctor's degree, from an accredited institution of higher education, should be allowed to use the title "Doctor" if he/she chooses to. However, if you have a bachelor's degree in medicine, you shouldn't hold yourself off as a doctor. Your degree may be equal to an MD, but it's NOT an MD. That's like me holding a DO degree but signing my name MD; it would be wrong and fraudulent. Since IMG's with MBs don't have a doctoral degree, they shouldn't be legally entitled to use the title Dr.

That's my opinion on this. I know many will disagree, but I still say it's fraud. I also have a problem with health care professionals thinking they hold a monopoly on the title doctor. PhDs, EdDs, PharmDs, JDs, and many others worked hard for their degrees and are just as much doctors as any MD or DO or DDS or (laugh) chiropractor or optometrist (not even true health care professions).

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[Purifyer]

I've read a past forum, from last year, discussing the distinction between the US MD (Doctor of Medicine) and DO (osteopathic doctor) vs. the British/Asian/Indian MB/MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine) degree. Some of the points discussed were:

1. The MD was a graduate degree, not an undergrad degree
2. The MD required about 8 years of combined schooling vs. 6 years for the MBBS
3. US medical training is more rigorous, etc.

I think that US med grads and foreign medical grads both have excellent training, for the most part, and that these degrees are equivalent. I have no problem with that. I do think some countries have inferior (forgive the word) facilities and medical technology in their curricula, but I think the IMGs receive good medical training.

However, the MD is a professional graduate degree. It's not equal to a PhD and is NOT a true doctorate. Even the AMA acknowledges that medical education is considered "undergraduate". I personally think an MD, however, is a graduate degree. It's a four year post-bachelor's degree in the US. In the UK, Asia, and many other countries, medical education truly is at the undergraduate level. I think this is wrong, but that's a product of the lame British system. This should change to reflect the rigours of medical school.

The problem I have with IMGs who have MB degrees is that they come to the US and get licensed, but insist on using the MD designation and they call themselves "doctor". Imagine someone from Europe or Asia coming to the US, with a bachelor's degree in biology, and claiming to have a PhD. It wouldn't be right. I have no problem with the IMG with an MB coming over here and passing exams and getting licensed, but face it, you'd be a physician, but you are NOT a doctor insofar as your degree makes you a doctor.

The term doctor was appropriated incorrectly by physicians. I think the better term should be Physician, but I think anyone who has a legally earned doctor's degree, from an accredited institution of higher education, should be allowed to use the title "Doctor" if he/she chooses to. However, if you have a bachelor's degree in medicine, you shouldn't hold yourself off as a doctor. Your degree may be equal to an MD, but it's NOT an MD. That's like me holding a DO degree but signing my name MD; it would be wrong and fraudulent. Since IMG's with MBs don't have a doctoral degree, they shouldn't be legally entitled to use the title Dr.

That's my opinion on this. I know many will disagree, but I still say it's fraud. I also have a problem with health care professionals thinking they hold a monopoly on the title doctor. PhDs, EdDs, PharmDs, JDs, and many others worked hard for their degrees and are just as much doctors as any MD or DO or DDS or (laugh) chiropractor or optometrist (not even true health care professions).

dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[leorl]

Anubis, you forget that people overseas have more specialized high school training and receive the same amount of pre-clinical training equivalent to undergraduate training that we do in undergraduate college. So while they're in high school, they already start learning things like ochem / physics to a more advanced degree than we do. And then that is built upon during the pre-clinical years. I know a lot of us have had good science backgrounds from AP courses, but in general, US secondary education lags behind. It doesn't seem to have an adverse affect because they graduate just as competent a doctor as we do, and so they should be eligible to call themselves MDs. The only thing may be is the maturity factor since they graduate younger than we do by about 4 years. However, responsibility and maturity are usually gained once you're in a clinical setting and you have duties / have to act professionally.

 

[jonb12997]

wow, this guy has a huge history of posts... (just joined yesterday) I'd wait till you actually start working with some IMG's... I haven't worked with any, I don't feel I have a right to comment, so i'm not going to

 

[PublicEnemy]

i think they're talking about the MBBS system used in the UK, Australia, India. Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery. this is typically the degree that is awarded for completing medical school in these countries.

These countries and others, allow students to enter medical school programs straight from undergrad. tpyically the MBBS curriculum is between 5-6 years long. this is akin to the Accelerated 6 or 7 year BA/MD programs they have . But in general, as a part of the culture of these countries, people aspiring to become doctors generally do not go to a separate undergraduate university to get a bachelors degree prior to studying medicine. Many of the same components of undergraduate education including things like the basic science pre-reqs are however are built into the MBBS curriculum.

an MBBS is not considered a licensed physician in those countries, UK, Aus, India, etc. until they complete some post-grad training, usually an internship and fulfil other licensing requirements such as passing exams etc.

In terms of the academics, there is really no difference between curriculums and content of the MBBS and the US allopathic MD. US allo schools however have built in passage of USMLE STEP1 and 2 as requirements for even obtaining the degree Doctor of Medicine. Even a US allo grad with an MD degree is technically not allowed to claim themselves a Doctor of Medicine for they are not licencesed until completing an accedited residency program and succesfully passing all stages of the USMLE and obtaining a states licensure.

Basically, all IMG's, whether MBBS grads, other IMG's, carribbean grads, have to do the same thing, they have to pass all stages of the USMLE and secure a residency and complete it and obtain full licensure before they can claim to be a practicing physician.

Its really an issue of semantics, and culture differences. In the US we hand out degrees called Doctor of Medicine, but its really a misnomer in the sense that what we refer to as a Medicial Doctor is someone who has actually become licensed which involves more than just the degree.

Those MBBS countries typically hold the MD designation for specialis, fellows who have more post-grad training.

The only difference is that, once a person with an MBBS has actually obtained licensure within the US, the ACGME allows them to advertise themselves as an MD. Interestingly, US DO graduates are not allowed to do this. I wonder why? Basically we're saying anyone with a recognized degree that passes the USMLE, does an allo residency in the US and gets licensed is allowed to call themselves an MD. The DO schools are recognized by WHO.

 

[erichaj]

WOW, This guy has way tooooooo much time on his hands. Get a F****ng life.

You arguing over a couple of letters in the alphabet.


When the GI doctor is about to stick his scope up your ass to look for cancer, All you need to know is whether he know how to to it or not. I think the last thing on your mind will be if there is an M.D. or D.O. or whatever at the end of the guys/girls name.

Get real you loser.

EH.

 

[erichaj]

Your a pre-med student? your not even in medical school or a Doctor.

Get lost.

Talk when you have walked.


EH

 

[johnny_blaze]

Hello everyone

I am a third year medical student currently studying in the U.K. I am originally from Canada and I know about the medical licensing processes in North America.

First of all, those who graduate from medical school in the U.K with an MBBS/MBChB are just as competent as MDs from the US/CAN (in terms of time training in medicine), even thought it is an undergraduate course. Medicine in the U.K can be taken as a post-graduate course as well. I work with some students doing this and their extra years of ?experience? hold little or no value?even those who have done science degrees! They have the same difficulties in medical school as all the students fresh out of high school and have to study just as hard as everyone else.

One of the major reasons doctors in the U.K have MBBS/MBChB as their medical degree is because an MD is attained differently here. An MD is attained 6-10 years after graduating from medical school by doing 1-2 years of research and producing a thesis. It is a proper doctorate. Most consultants attain this prior to completing their fellowship exams.

I don?t think that it is wrong for a U.K graduate to enter the US and use the title of MD because he/she has trained in medicine just as long as their US counterpart. However, it would be wrong for a US graduate to go to the UK and use MD because he/she would be claiming to have something that he/she did not earn.

"The problem I have with IMGs who have MB degrees is that they come to the US and get licensed, but insist on using the MD designation and they call themselves "doctor". Imagine someone from Europe or Asia coming to the US, with a bachelor's degree in biology, and claiming to have a PhD. "

That is what a lot of people in the U.K thing about US/CAN grads. The MD in the UK is a true doctorate, and I think people need to keep this in mind when referring to a US MD (which is not). It kinda feels like the US/CAN is just handing out this degree, which should take much more work to earn. Imagine if just passing a test with NO research could attain a PhD! I can?t be certain which MD existed first but I do know that British medical education system and the royal college of physicians and surgeons (which the US/CAN ones are based) have existed well before those countries did.

"Since IMG's with MBs don't have a doctoral degree, they shouldn't be legally entitled to use the title Dr."

keeping all i mentioned before in mind, if US/CAN medical grads haven?t earned their MDs in a ?doctoral? way maybe they also don?t deserve to call themselves Dr.

Personally, I think it?s just a title? I personally don?t care what people call me after medical school? hell, all the surgeons in this country end up calling themselves Mr. anyway? and that?s where I?m headed if i dont decide to go back home 😉

See ya guys

 

[Anubis84]

dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Um, grow up freak ass.

 

[Anubis84]

WOW, This guy has way tooooooo much time on his hands. Get a F****ng life.

You arguing over a couple of letters in the alphabet.


When the GI doctor is about to stick his scope up your ass to look for cancer, All you need to know is whether he know how to to it or not. I think the last thing on your mind will be if there is an M.D. or D.O. or whatever at the end of the guys/girls name.

Get real you loser.

EH.

Dude, why be mean to me? I was making a point. Dickless troll.

 

[Anubis84]

Your a pre-med student? your not even in medical school or a Doctor.

Get lost.

Talk when you have walked.


EH

It's spelled YOU'RE...a contraction for you are, you complete *****. Body mechanic. You're probably a chiropractor anyway...loser.

 

[Anubis84]

Hello everyone

I am a third year medical student currently studying in the U.K. I am originally from Canada and I know about the medical licensing processes in North America.

First of all, those who graduate from medical school in the U.K with an MBBS/MBChB are just as competent as MDs from the US/CAN (in terms of time training in medicine), even thought it is an undergraduate course. Medicine in the U.K can be taken as a post-graduate course as well. I work with some students doing this and their extra years of ?experience? hold little or no value?even those who have done science degrees! They have the same difficulties in medical school as all the students fresh out of high school and have to study just as hard as everyone else.

One of the major reasons doctors in the U.K have MBBS/MBChB as their medical degree is because an MD is attained differently here. An MD is attained 6-10 years after graduating from medical school by doing 1-2 years of research and producing a thesis. It is a proper doctorate. Most consultants attain this prior to completing their fellowship exams.

I don?t think that it is wrong for a U.K graduate to enter the US and use the title of MD because he/she has trained in medicine just as long as their US counterpart. However, it would be wrong for a US graduate to go to the UK and use MD because he/she would be claiming to have something that he/she did not earn.



That is what a lot of people in the U.K thing about US/CAN grads. The MD in the UK is a true doctorate, and I think people need to keep this in mind when referring to a US MD (which is not). It kinda feels like the US/CAN is just handing out this degree, which should take much more work to earn. Imagine if just passing a test with NO research could attain a PhD! I can?t be certain which MD existed first but I do know that British medical education system and the royal college of physicians and surgeons (which the US/CAN ones are based) have existed well before those countries did.



keeping all i mentioned before in mind, if US/CAN medical grads haven?t earned their MDs in a ?doctoral? way maybe they also don?t deserve to call themselves Dr.

Personally, I think it?s just a title? I personally don?t care what people call me after medical school? hell, all the surgeons in this country end up calling themselves Mr. anyway? and that?s where I?m headed if i dont decide to go back home 😉

See ya guys

Actually, you're the only one who understood what I was saying. The MD and UK MBBS (not sure about Indian and Chinese), but the MD in the US/Canada and the MBBS in UK/Ireland are pretty much the same degree. Who cares whether you have a BSc/BA prior to medical school? It's the medical education that counts, right? Some of the best physicians in the world come from England and Scotland. I have the utmost respect for your education over there, but...I think the naming of the degrees is stupid.

My whole point was: if you don't possess a doctoral degree, whether professional or academic, you shouldn't use the title "doctor". I don't care what your initials are, what I care about is your training. An MBBS and an MD are pretty much the same...however, the big difference is the name. The MD is actually a degree that confers the title doctor due to the nomenclature of the degree. It's not a true doctorate, but it is a professional doctorate. The MBBS is a graduate level degree, in my opinion, but is classified as an undergraduate degree.

I only was making the point that the holder of an MBBS shouldn't use the title doctor since, technically, they aren't a doctor. Also, just because one is a physician does not automatically mean one is a doctor. The term doctor has absolutely nothing to do with medicine, health care, or medical treatment; it's a title given to one who had achieved the highest degree in a field; an academic/teacher, etc. Physicians stole the title from theologians and academics. That was my point...sheesh! Relax and learn how to read people!

 

[jonb12997]

actually, merriam-webster defines a doctor as "one skilled or specializing in healing arts; especially : a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian who is licensed to practice" it says this in addition to your definition, "a person who has earned one of the highest academic degrees (as a PhD) conferred by a university" but even that doesn't matter, because our society defines doctor not as an academic, but as a medical doctor.

 

[johnny_blaze]

I totally understand the point you?re trying to make. I think that?s probably the reason why surgeons in the U.K keep Mr. rather than Dr. They don?t want to be called something their not? they don?t want to be confused with anyone else, they want to be known as surgeons.
I once asked some surgeons I was doing a rotation with if it would be possible to keep the title of Dr. if I become a surgeon in the U.K and they gave me a ?what the f**k is he on about?? look? it was pretty funny.
I think with modern customs, its acceptable for physicians to use the title of Dr. I personally have more of a problem with other professions calling themselves Dr. like Optometrists and PharmDs. These occupations do not yield the title of Dr. in other countries aside from US/CAN (as far as I know, but I could be wrong). I know someone working towards a PharmD who tells people he?s going to be a doctor, not a pharmacist. I personally don?t care what people call themselves but I am against the fact that he gives medical (not related to pharmacology) advice to people who are under the impression that he?s a medical student or has medical experience. I bet a physicist working towards a doctorate would promptly correct someone instead of giving them medical advice. I think he really wanted to go to medical school but found an easier way to call himself Dr.
I think this is an important matter because a title like Dr. brings about a certain respect and expectance from people?. A title like this can be bad in the wrong hands.

Peace every1? keep the comments clean

 

[Waiting4Ganong]

First of all, let me give you the disclaimer. I AM a doctor (in the strictly academic sense, ie: Doctorate, PhD) AND a medical student (Candidate for BM, BCh which is another way to say I'm doing an allopathic (ie: MD style) medical course at Oxford).

Any suggestion that an doctor with an MBBS hasn't "earnt" the title "doctor" is trite, troublemaking, insulting and a waste of webspace. The nomenclature of allopathic medical education (especially for those who have followed the same syllabus and taken the same licensing exams!) is a side-issue. The use of "MD" and "JD" for that matter as a name for what are in effect undergraduate (ie: non-research, no-original contribution to the field required), albeit professional, degrees could be questioned (but again, why, what is the point?) but someone who has passed their exams and is licensed to practice medicine is a "doctor". In the US the convention is (for ease of patient understanding, and because it is all, at the end of the day, just semantics) that doctors who have completed an allopathic medical course elsewhere and passed ECFMG licensing requirements can call themselves MD when they practice in the US (BECAUSE THAT IS SIMPLY WHAT THE DEGREE THEY HOLD IS REFERRED TO IN THE USA).

I'm consistently amazed at a lack of common sense and perspective on these boards. Is your manic o-chem studying rotting all your pre-med brains? I had the misfortune to come across the reciprocal argument in the MSTP section - some tool wanted to call himself Doctor (as a med student) to his patients on the wards because he had a PhD (again, because he had "earnt" the title)*.

This thread is dead to me. It is a scary window on what rubbish goes through some people heads though. My top tip is to stop worrying about this trivia and learn some facts about medicine, or mow the lawn, or get laid, or anything else in fact as the obsession with this kind of nonsense just reflects poorly on the next generation of potential doctors.

I apologise for spelling and tone. Just finished an 18hr shift on the wards. Tired.

W4G.

* = Actually this is unfair and inaccurate. The PhD-having med student simply asked would it be okay to call himself "doctor" on the wards and some pre-med joker (with a decade of lab scut-puppy experience) insisted that he must be known as such (and anything else was simply just MDs not showing him enough respect!). Again, lack of perspective.

 

[Waiting4Ganong]

Johnny-Blaze,

In the UK Surgeons ARE called "Dr" until they pass their final exams and become consultants (US equiv= board certified attendings, roughly speaking). Then they call themselves "Mr" or "Miss" again. It is NOTHING to do with allopathic medical school degree titles in 2004 and everything to do with the 500 year old history of surgery (ie: Barbers) mixed with some good old 21st Century Snobbery.

See: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/181_01_050704/whe10281_fm.html
and
http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/about_the_college/information_for_patients/faq/surgeons_html (excerpt below)
to educate yourself on this.

The consultant probably was giving you the "gas face" b/c he a) couldn't believe you didn't know that or b) couldn't believe you were wasting his time with a question that can answered by google in <5secs or c) simply because you are med-student (and hence not worthy, and should only speak when spoken too - and never with inane questions).

Your speculation was way off-base. I imagine it would be cool for you to consider deleting it so that it doesn't confuse future readers but you can check this with the moderators.

All the best,
W4G.


from: http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/about_the_college/information_for_patients/faq/surgeons_html

Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr or Miss or Mrs, rather than Dr?
In most other parts of the world all medical practitioners, physicians and surgeons alike, are referred to as ?Dr? whereas in the UK surgeons are usually referred to as Mr, Miss or Mrs. This is because, from the Middle Ages physicians had to embark on formal university training to gain possession of a degree in medicine before they could enter practice. The possession of this degree, a doctorate, entitled them to the title of ?Doctor of Medicine? or Doctor.

The training of surgeons until the mid-19th century was different. They did not have to go to university to gain a degree; instead they usually served on apprenticeship to a surgeon. Afterwards they took an examination. In London, after 1745, this was conducted by the Surgeons? Company and after 1800 by The Royal College of Surgeons. If successful they were awarded a diploma, not a degree, therefore they were unable to call themselves ?Doctor?, and stayed instead with the title ?Mr?.

Outside London and the largest cities the surgeon served an apprenticeship like many other tradesmen, but did not necessarily take any examination. Today all medical practitioners, whether physicians or surgeons have to undertake training at medical school to obtain a qualifying degree. Thereafter a further period of postgraduate study and training through junior posts is required before full consultant surgeon status is achieved. Thus the tradition of a surgeon being referred to as ?Mr/Miss/Mrs? has continued, meaning that in effect a person starts as ?Mr/Miss/Mrs?, becomes a ?Dr? and then goes back to being a ?Mr?; ?Miss? or ?Mrs? again!

 

[johnny_blaze]

W4G,

I already knew the history of surgeons and why they call themselves Mr.
Anyone who was curious about it could have googled it and got an answer in 4 sec rather than reading your lengthy reply.
You shouldn?t have just jumped to conclusions, assuming that I didn?t know anything about it. I wrote that statement about U.K surgeons because I wanted to tell a somewhat humours story without having to give a lengthy explanation into its background like you did. The reason I asked those surgeons if I could keep Dr. is because I wanted to see what their reaction would be like. Many surgeons are very proud that they are surgeons and choose to keep ?Mr.? which is probably why they gave me that ?gas face? look. I have met 2 British trained surgeons (one general and the other gyne) who kept Dr. after their fellowship exams. I was just curious to see how other surgeons in modern days felt towards this.

You looked too much into my comment and wasted time with that lengthy reply, but you do give a good history lesson 🙂

peace

 

[leorl]

You could have said simply that surgeons retain the title "Mr." because of the origination of surgery - before the fancy education, surgeons were the butchers. Anubis, I think the point you're making is pretty facetious. An MD in the UK is actually a post-graduate title earned after the MBBS or MBBChBAO - that is, they gain medical certification first and then the MD is a research degree for medical graduates, sort of like a PhD for medics. The earning of an MD in the US does not formally require a research component. A person of the same profession should be called the same thing for universal standardization, regardless of the letters of the title. Just because the US chose to depart from the title and curriculum the rest of the world follows does not grant that only US graduates should confer the title "doctor." Pretty arrogant view if you ask me.

 

[Anubis84]

Johnny-Blaze,

In the UK Surgeons ARE called "Dr" until they pass their final exams and become consultants (US equiv= board certified attendings, roughly speaking). Then they call themselves "Mr" or "Miss" again. It is NOTHING to do with allopathic medical school degree titles in 2004 and everything to do with the 500 year old history of surgery (ie: Barbers) mixed with some good old 21st Century Snobbery.

See: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/181_01_050704/whe10281_fm.html
and
http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/about_the_college/information_for_patients/faq/surgeons_html (excerpt below)
to educate yourself on this.

The consultant probably was giving you the "gas face" b/c he a) couldn't believe you didn't know that or b) couldn't believe you were wasting his time with a question that can answered by google in <5secs or c) simply because you are med-student (and hence not worthy, and should only speak when spoken too - and never with inane questions).

Your speculation was way off-base. I imagine it would be cool for you to consider deleting it so that it doesn't confuse future readers but you can check this with the moderators.

All the best,
W4G.


from: http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/about_the_college/information_for_patients/faq/surgeons_html

Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr or Miss or Mrs, rather than Dr?
In most other parts of the world all medical practitioners, physicians and surgeons alike, are referred to as ?Dr? whereas in the UK surgeons are usually referred to as Mr, Miss or Mrs. This is because, from the Middle Ages physicians had to embark on formal university training to gain possession of a degree in medicine before they could enter practice. The possession of this degree, a doctorate, entitled them to the title of ?Doctor of Medicine? or Doctor.

The training of surgeons until the mid-19th century was different. They did not have to go to university to gain a degree; instead they usually served on apprenticeship to a surgeon. Afterwards they took an examination. In London, after 1745, this was conducted by the Surgeons? Company and after 1800 by The Royal College of Surgeons. If successful they were awarded a diploma, not a degree, therefore they were unable to call themselves ?Doctor?, and stayed instead with the title ?Mr?.

Outside London and the largest cities the surgeon served an apprenticeship like many other tradesmen, but did not necessarily take any examination. Today all medical practitioners, whether physicians or surgeons have to undertake training at medical school to obtain a qualifying degree. Thereafter a further period of postgraduate study and training through junior posts is required before full consultant surgeon status is achieved. Thus the tradition of a surgeon being referred to as ?Mr/Miss/Mrs? has continued, meaning that in effect a person starts as ?Mr/Miss/Mrs?, becomes a ?Dr? and then goes back to being a ?Mr?; ?Miss? or ?Mrs? again!

Bull****, in England, unless one passes a thesis/research MD programme, he/she earns a Bachelor of Medicine degree and is in no way, shape, or form a doctor of anything. They are physicians. Get off your high horse you pompous ****. Surgeons were known as Mr. because they were "common" and mere body mechanics, whereas physicians were considered "noble" and elite.

No matter what your degree is, you're no better than teachers, lawyers, mechanics, vets, soldiers, etc. You're human beings. Lose the God complex, come down to Earth, and understand that your **** stinks just like the other mortals on this planet.

 

[Anubis84]

I totally understand the point you?re trying to make. I think that?s probably the reason why surgeons in the U.K keep Mr. rather than Dr. They don?t want to be called something their not? they don?t want to be confused with anyone else, they want to be known as surgeons.
I once asked some surgeons I was doing a rotation with if it would be possible to keep the title of Dr. if I become a surgeon in the U.K and they gave me a ?what the f**k is he on about?? look? it was pretty funny.
I think with modern customs, its acceptable for physicians to use the title of Dr. I personally have more of a problem with other professions calling themselves Dr. like Optometrists and PharmDs. These occupations do not yield the title of Dr. in other countries aside from US/CAN (as far as I know, but I could be wrong). I know someone working towards a PharmD who tells people he?s going to be a doctor, not a pharmacist. I personally don?t care what people call themselves but I am against the fact that he gives medical (not related to pharmacology) advice to people who are under the impression that he?s a medical student or has medical experience. I bet a physicist working towards a doctorate would promptly correct someone instead of giving them medical advice. I think he really wanted to go to medical school but found an easier way to call himself Dr.
I think this is an important matter because a title like Dr. brings about a certain respect and expectance from people?. A title like this can be bad in the wrong hands.

Peace every1? keep the comments clean

I think we're on the same page. The PharmD you know who says he's a doctor is sort of misleading others to believe he's a physician. I agree, in most countries, the term doctor denotes medical doctors or academics (professors). While technically, he is a "doctor" of pharmacy, he's not a physician and he knows this and uses that term to mislead. He should just say "I'm studying to be a clinical pharmacist" rather than doctor.

However, he at least earned the degree of Doctor, whereas the MBBS has not. I don't care about equivalence. I don't care about preparation. If you were not conferred a degree that says Doctor of X (fill in the blank), you, are NOT a doctor of squat. Yes, this is semantics because on one hand, an MBBS is a doctor by trade and profession, but not one by earned credential. I know, so what, right? Only in medicine is this possible; it would never fly in other fields. If I hold a MPhil (Master of Philosophy - mini PhD common in UK) in biochemistry from the University of Leeds in England, and am a well known researchers at a lab in the UK, and move to the US, I can't automatically assume the title and degree of PhD and pass myself as being something I'm not even though my degree is equal to a US PhD. That would be fraud. That would be no better than the PharmD passing himself off as a physician or the chiro calling himself a chiropractic physician.

BTW people, there is NO such thing as a chiropractic or optometric physician; they are not and never will be physicians.

Also, I'm not disrespecting physicians...I have since admiration for them no matter where they are. I just think it's ridiculous how everyone kowtows to them and treat them like God. In the UK, optometrists, dentists, and vets only receive a bachelor's degree. I don't care how long they've been in practice over there, if they move to the US, they cannot assume the degree DDS or DVM or OD. James Herriot, veterinarian, and author of "All Creatures Great and Small" was always known in his books and interviews as Mr. Herriot, BVetSc. He was never "doctor" and would not be allowed to use DVM in Michigan or probably any other state. Neither would a dentist (not sure what their degree is over there in the UK).

It's getting ridiculous in the US. Recently, physical therapists, who are jealous of other health care professionals, changed their degree to DPT (Dr of physical therapy), a three year professional doctorate designed to give them respect among patients and other professionals. WTF? Why the hell does a PT need a doctorate? They are NOT primary health care professionals nor do they deal with complex matters. I can see a pharmacist needing more than a BS because medicine and health care has become so dependent on medications that the body of knowledge had grown exponentially. Pharmacists need to know more and more every day; they do much more than just fill Rxs.

Audiologists, who in the US used to have master's degrees, became jealous of the optometrists, who have an OD degree, and they do the exact same thing for the ears that ODs do for the eyes...so now, boom...in the US, Audiology has a new degree, the AuD (dr of audiology). Unnecessary and a waste of time and space if you ask me.

However, that is the trend in the US. I have no idea why. I think the UK should probably at least change the MBBS to the MD to reflect the hard work put into medical school. You physicians work hard and you deserve to be called Dr., so you should get an MD or DMed or something like that.

 

[Anubis84]

W4G,

I already knew the history of surgeons and why they call themselves Mr.
Anyone who was curious about it could have googled it and got an answer in 4 sec rather than reading your lengthy reply.
You shouldn?t have just jumped to conclusions, assuming that I didn?t know anything about it. I wrote that statement about U.K surgeons because I wanted to tell a somewhat humours story without having to give a lengthy explanation into its background like you did. The reason I asked those surgeons if I could keep Dr. is because I wanted to see what their reaction would be like. Many surgeons are very proud that they are surgeons and choose to keep ?Mr.? which is probably why they gave me that ?gas face? look. I have met 2 British trained surgeons (one general and the other gyne) who kept Dr. after their fellowship exams. I was just curious to see how other surgeons in modern days felt towards this.

You looked too much into my comment and wasted time with that lengthy reply, but you do give a good history lesson 🙂

peace

Maybe the UK surgeons are more human in their approach to medicine and surgery. In the US, most physicians strut around thinking they are God, even the ones who pop zits and lance thrombosed hemorrhoids...you know, real life-saving stuff. Hey, we all respect your education, years of residency, long hours, etc. You deserve to make a boatload of money and you deserve respect.

However, physicians, whether MDs or DOs (who are equally well trained in the US, not the UK though, and deserve a lot of respect! I think DOs make better docs in many ways because in the US they look at the patient as a whole, not just sx, and they actually listen w/o a god complex) or MBBS, are not God and should treat other people with respect. Also, is it really necessary to sign everything MD or use Dr before your name for everything? My friend is a police cadet at a local police dept. A few months ago, a cardiologist beat his wife to a pulp and was arrested. While in lock-up, this arrogant prick actually signed all of his paperwork So-and-so, MD and insisted on being referred to as Dr. So-and-so by the cops. Who the Hell does he think he is? he's in jail for putting his wife in a coma, and he is demanding respect? HAH! You won't see any PhDs signing their names like that or demanding a title in the same situation, although I bet the dentists, optometrists, and chiros would insist on it! 🙂

 

[Anubis84]

You could have said simply that surgeons retain the title "Mr." because of the origination of surgery - before the fancy education, surgeons were the butchers. Anubis, I think the point you're making is pretty facetious. An MD in the UK is actually a post-graduate title earned after the MBBS or MBBChBAO - that is, they gain medical certification first and then the MD is a research degree for medical graduates, sort of like a PhD for medics. The earning of an MD in the US does not formally require a research component. A person of the same profession should be called the same thing for universal standardization, regardless of the letters of the title. Just because the US chose to depart from the title and curriculum the rest of the world follows does not grant that only US graduates should confer the title "doctor." Pretty arrogant view if you ask me.

Actually, I wasn't trying to be facetious. I was making a point, which can go either way. From the UK point of view, physicians without an MD or PhD are not doctors and should not use that title. There is nothing wrong with being called Physician Smith or something like that. Or better yet, Bob or John! 🙂 From the US point of view, I agree, it's not a doctorate degree in the true sense of the word, but that won't change. I'm not saying the UK is inferior, or the system is less qualified, what I'm saying is, UK physicians should be recognized for their hard work and receive a degree that higher than a bachelor's. It could be a master's or something. However, if your degree is not Doctor of Something, you are not a doctor of anything. Don't use the title and don't assume the degree MD when you come over to the US. Dentists, chiros, pharms, optometrists, osteopaths, podiatrists, vets, psychologists, and lawyers trained in the UK cannot come over to the US and automatically exchange their BDS, BVetSc, LLB, BOpt, or BChiro degree for a DDS, DVM, JD, OD, or DC degree and pass themselves off as "doctor" unless they have a PhD or something. However, physicians think they are better, so they can do this.

Man, I'd love to trade my BSc degree in for a "doctorate", whether academic or professional. Sign me up! 🙂

No one cares if an EdD says he's a PhD since they are almost the same degree. In the US, dentists can earn a DDS or DMD degree. Does it really matter if the DMD uses DDS? Not really; same thing. What if a ScD signs PhD? So what, both are doctorates? It's not completely honest, but so what? However, to have a bachelor's degree but sign your name with a Doctor of Medicine degree is fraudulent and dishonest.

BTW, in Germany, the Scandinavian countries, and the Slavic countries, medical, law, and other professional degrees are always doctorates (non-research, just like in the US: Dr Med, Dr Vet Med , Dr Dent Med, Dr Iur, etc.).

 

[erichaj]

Is lol over some little boy who has never treated a single human being for anything and has taken a couple of biology courses and thinks he can tell people what they can call themselves.

based on his wording he is most likely 22 or 23. or less.

either way when you start saving lives. for real, then you can have an opinion that counts.

until then just try to get into med-school first so that at least you can start to formulate an educated opinion.

EH.

 

[Anubis84]

Is lol over some little boy who has never treated a single human being for anything and has taken a couple of biology courses and thinks he can tell people what they can call themselves.

based on his wording he is most likely 22 or 23. or less.

either way when you start saving lives. for real, then you can have an opinion that counts.

until then just try to get into med-school first so that at least you can start to formulate an educated opinion.

EH.

I just turned 20 on Tuesday. I'm not a little boy. Also, not every physician saves lives. I can see how a zit popping dermatologist who never treats skin cancer or a plastic surgeon who fixes boobs and asses or an allergist who scoops snot all day really saves lives.

Pull your head outta your ass you old piece of crap.

 

[johnny_blaze]

Erichaj,

Common mate, you don?t need to be in medical school to have an opinion about ANY subject, especially medicine. I think our profession would be a lot better if more doctors respected the views of everybody, not just those who are ?equal? to us.
Btw, who cares how old he is? I?m 21 and I?m in my third year of medical school... does this mean that my opinions are inferior?
Just relax dude, and if you disagree with anubis 84?s opinion explain WHY in an educated and informative manor, don?t just post insults.

I think the UK should probably at least change the MBBS to the MD to reflect the hard work put into medical school. You physicians work hard and you deserve to be called Dr., so you should get an MD or DMed or something like that.

Don?t forget, people in the U.K hold on to their traditions. I doubt that the ?research based? MD will ever disappear and replace the MBBS/MBChB.

A doctor in the US/CAN is awarded an MD after he passes his/her licensing exams. A doctor coming to US/CAN from UK must pass these first before he/she can practice there. Shouldn?t they also receive an MD? They?ve passed the same exams and done all the required core rotations and hospital appointments needed to graduate with a medical degree. What do you think about this?

 

[erichaj]

Need to be based on education and knowledge.

I know plenty of dermatologist that save lives every day. They do mohs surgery. I know plastic surgeons that do complete reconstructive surgery and save auto accident pt. lives.

For this little punk to speak as if he knows what goes on in medicine when he has never ever live the life of a doctor is insulting.

I believe that people can formulate their own opinions but just reading his posts demonstrates his low level of maturity.

"zit popping dermatologist" "boob job plastic surgeon" ?

Give me a break. Every doctor goes through Internship and residency. That means general medicine for all. Then they specialize.

all doctors are trained to treat heart attacks and strokes. That does not mean they will do it for a living but it means that they have all done it.

I'm very insulted by this 20 year old boy pretending that he knows what he is talking about.

But you know what, it does not matter. he will be schooled in medical school and residency.

😱 😱 😀 😀

 

[Anubis84]

Need to be based on education and knowledge.

I know plenty of dermatologist that save lives every day. They do mohs surgery. I know plastic surgeons that do complete reconstructive surgery and save auto accident pt. lives.

For this little punk to speak as if he knows what goes on in medicine when he has never ever live the life of a doctor is insulting.

I believe that people can formulate their own opinions but just reading his posts demonstrates his low level of maturity.

"zit popping dermatologist" "boob job plastic surgeon" ?

Give me a break. Every doctor goes through Internship and residency. That means general medicine for all. Then they specialize.

all doctors are trained to treat heart attacks and strokes. That does not mean they will do it for a living but it means that they have all done it.

I'm very insulted by this 20 year old boy pretending that he knows what he is talking about.

But you know what, it does not matter. he will be schooled in medical school and residency.

😱 😱 😀 😀

Dude, you're immature and stupid. Not every doctor knows how to treat an MI or CVA. Do you really think an ophthamologist could treat a heart attack victim any better than an EMT? Heh...no. Do you think a PSYCHIARTIST could? Hell no. Not all doctors have treated serious illness and saved lives. My mom is a pediatrician and has never saved one life, treated one heart attack, or performed emergency surgery on anyone. My uncle is an allergist who has never saved anyone or treated any MIs or CVAs.

Doctors are NOT Gods; they are human beings (with the exception of you, Mr. Chiropractor). Many docs pass through internships and residencies without ever saving anyone or doing anything spectacular. My mom Rx antibiotics, gives sports physicals, routine PEs, check-ups, asthma check-ups, etc. She never saves any lives! Get over yourself.

What kinda doctor are you anyway? Where did you go to school? How old are you, 50? You're old and out of the loop.

BTW, I'm 20, I'm a grown man, not some little kid! If you were a doctor, you'd know that! DUUUH. See, here's a pic of me...I'm not some stupid kid!

 

[Anubis84]

Erichaj,

Common mate, you don?t need to be in medical school to have an opinion about ANY subject, especially medicine. I think our profession would be a lot better if more doctors respected the views of everybody, not just those who are ?equal? to us.
Btw, who cares how old he is? I?m 21 and I?m in my third year of medical school... does this mean that my opinions are inferior?
Just relax dude, and if you disagree with anubis 84?s opinion explain WHY in an educated and informative manor, don?t just post insults.



Don?t forget, people in the U.K hold on to their traditions. I doubt that the ?research based? MD will ever disappear and replace the MBBS/MBChB.

A doctor in the US/CAN is awarded an MD after he passes his/her licensing exams. A doctor coming to US/CAN from UK must pass these first before he/she can practice there. Shouldn?t they also receive an MD? They?ve passed the same exams and done all the required core rotations and hospital appointments needed to graduate with a medical degree. What do you think about this?

Dude, I like you and think you're right. I wish eric would grow up! 🙂

 

[erichaj]

I find it very funny that a 20 year old punk is telling me a trained physician what doctors have done and can do.

By the way ask you mother if she has ever treated a septic child. After she says yes, you now know that she has saved a life.

I'm done with this little boy.

Grow up? I think I have little more knowledge about medicine that you.

It sound to me like you are bitter. "doctors are not gods" hmmmm. I never said they were but it sound to me you have some issues.

bye.

 

[erichaj]

lol, they don't know ****.

six months of emt school and now they save live. riiiiight.
lol

Have you ever seen a kid die of an asthma attack. yes she saves lives you idiot.
does your mom know your talking about her like this. does she know how little you think of her little boy.

Dude, you're immature and stupid. Not every doctor knows how to treat an MI or CVA. Do you really think an ophthamologist could treat a heart attack victim any better than an EMT? Heh...no. Do you think a PSYCHIARTIST could? Hell no. Not all doctors have treated serious illness and saved lives. My mom is a pediatrician and has never saved one life, treated one heart attack, or performed emergency surgery on anyone. My uncle is an allergist who has never saved anyone or treated any MIs or CVAs.

Doctors are NOT Gods; they are human beings (with the exception of you, Mr. Chiropractor). Many docs pass through internships and residencies without ever saving anyone or doing anything spectacular. My mom Rx antibiotics, gives sports physicals, routine PEs, check-ups, asthma check-ups, etc. She never saves any lives! Get over yourself.

What kinda doctor are you anyway? Where did you go to school? How old are you, 50? You're old and out of the loop.

BTW, I'm 20, I'm a grown man, not some little kid! If you were a doctor, you'd know that! DUUUH. See, here's a pic of me...I'm not some stupid kid!

 

[Purifyer]

It amazes me that seemingly intelligent people waste their time trying to educate or reason with a troll in command of a child's intellect.

Once more for good measure;

die thread, die

 

[erichaj]

You are right.

I will now stop trying to reason with the troll/boy that had to post his picture to show that he was truly a boy. He has issues.

EH.

It amazes me that seemingly intelligent people waste their time trying to educate or reason with a troll in command of a child's intellect.

Once more for good measure;

die thread, die

 

[OzDDS]

Man, I'd love to trade my BSc degree in for a "doctorate", whether academic or professional. Sign me up! 🙂

This is basically what the US has done. They have told graduates that they are holder's of doctorate degrees, when in reality they are not.


If the US states that they are "legal equivilents" of each other. Which it does! ie.
MD = MBBS

That means one of two things:

1) Says that another countries bachelor degree is to the level of a doctorate in the US.

or

2) Says that a Doctorate in the US is no greater level than a bachelors.




I'd have to say that the better definition would be #2.
.. for one because this is the first degree in that field that is offered. ie. an MD does not build on prior Medical knowledge and training (a previous bachelors in bio does not count as this is technically a different field)


Just because you complete a prior degree before entering medicine.. even if it is required.. that does not make it a doctorate in that field of study.

Actually ask some of the medical students from the Australia or the UK. There are many medical schools that 'require' a previous degree before you can begin the program. (Graduate entry programs) But the degree you recieve is still a "bachelor of medicine" (MBBS).

There are also 6-year med programs for students right out of high school in the US too!

The British system (upon which the US education system is founded btw) still keeps to the true definition and tradition of education. and apperantly has chosen (rightfully so) to keep it's honor and history rather than succumbing to money and has successfully kept it's political pressure groups from misinterperting and changing it's foundation.

 

[johnny_blaze]

wow, good explanation OzDDS.. best so far.. u get first prize in my books..
I especially love that thing about the British keeping traditions and what not 🙂

Anubis84,

You CAN die of an acute asthma attack. Your parents do save lives, maybe not in emergency situations, but in a long term since... Prevention is just as important.

Before a dermatologist became a ?zit popper? he/she was exposed to and probably even managed patients with cancer. Depression and some other mental illness can very often lead to suicide. A good psychiatrist can prevent this.

I have to agree with Erichaj on this particular matter, experience talks? I can see how someone could be offended.

 

[leorl]

You're showing your inexperience a bit. You really need to be in medicine in order to make comments. Just don't show any of these ignorances during your interviews. A plastic surgeon doesn't fix boobs/asses on a whim (more cosmetic surgeons) - they fix grafts for those involved in serious burns, try to fix congenital disfigurements from abnormal bone or skin growth, try to restore normal function and appearance of limbs damaged by things like vasculitis or cellulitis, etc. An ENT not only takes care of allergies but alleviates upper resp. tract abnormalities of Wegener's, prevents complications of otitis media, etc etc etc.

Also, as a mod, I have to warn you on the unnecessary and excessive nature of your attempted insults in this thread. Watch the language.

I just turned 20 on Tuesday. I'm not a little boy. Also, not every physician saves lives. I can see how a zit popping dermatologist who never treats skin cancer or a plastic surgeon who fixes boobs and asses or an allergist who scoops snot all day really saves lives.

Pull your head outta your ass you old piece of crap.

 

[Golden Maverick]

I'm glad to see what could be a useful forum degenerating into a flame war! (sarcasm btw)
The letters you get after your name count for nothing if you don't know what your doing. The title you get also counts for ****. Med courses in the UK are going to qualify you just as well as in the US, and the fact that some will not get a bachelor degree also (many courses here have an intercalated BA or BSc) really does not matter. I find it worrying that a forum for people in the medical profession should degenerate into this kind of crap, so much for being a caring bunch!

 

[timtye78]

I think the only thing that this thread demonstrates is the fact that the Title of "Doctor" can signify much more than MD. Whatever your opinion on who should or shouldn't refer to themselves as doctor, the fact the public needs to wake up to is that doctor does not always mean MD. The public also needs to realize that you do not necessarily need an "MD" to practice medicine. What is even worse is an RN who walks into the ICU with a long white coat, and writes orders on pts, which in my mind is practicing medicine (i.e. 'assessing the pt, writing orders'). Another issue is people including PA-Cs and RNPs or whatevers walking into rooms, again, with long white coats on and treating patients without identifying themselves or their professional designation and position in the care of the patient. Or some person on TV with a white coat, and "Dr." in front of their name, (Doctor of what?).

As smart as American people claim to be, they don't question their healthcare providers enough, so many charlatans can walk in and say/do whatever. Most patient who see someone in scrubs (especially the beat-up faded OR scrubs work best! ) draped in long white coat, who introduces themselves as DrX, while wholeheartedly assume you are a physician. It was even almost scary how much people thought that I was
"The Doctor" when I came into the room as a medical student, even after a proper introduction!

As far as physicians are concerned, if you have a dilpoma that has your name on it below Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, we have the right, by longstanding tradition, and by what it says on the diploma (that cost us $100k+) to introduce ourselves as Dr. X if we like.

I cannot personally change what the ACGME authorizes, but I believe it is outrageous that someone can put "MD" on their office sign or business card, if the silly diploma says "MBBSCHchBchCSSFWR" or what the h** ever! DOs have different initials because they are so-called "different" degrees, but it is considered fraudulent when we would try to use the MD designation.

So people argue it confuses patients, so lets have the FMGs/IMGs use MD. Why does this logic not apply to the DOs? Anyway, who cares. No one. So.....back to treating patients and learning the field of anesthesiology. When I am done, I will introduce myself as Dr.Tye, the Anesthesiologist, and that will be it.

By the way, has everyone seen the post about the "Clinical Doctorate of Nursing." (Not to be confused with the academic doctorate of nursing.) Face it people, more and more people while be trying to squeeze in use titles, mislead patients, and the biggest reason they might acheive this eventually is because people will declare they can do the same thing cheaper.

 

[OzDDS]

As far as physicians are concerned, if you have a dilpoma that has your name on it below Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, we have the right, by longstanding tradition, and by what it says on the diploma (that cost us $100k+) to introduce ourselves as Dr. X if we like.

I cannot personally change what the ACGME authorizes, but I believe it is outrageous that someone can put "MD" on their office sign or business card, if the silly diploma says "MBBSCHchBchCSSFWR" or what the h** ever! DOs have different initials because they are so-called "different" degrees, but it is considered fraudulent when we would try to use the MD designation. .

You may disagree with what the ACGME authorizes, but that is no reason to belittle someone else's education... calling it a silly diploma especially a potential co-worker. What if medical graduates of the University if London who have your "so called silly" MBBS degree started to make fun of your DO degree? See, it's not a very professional attitude to take.

So people argue it confuses patients, so lets have the FMGs/IMGs use MD. Why does this logic not apply to the DOs? Anyway, who cares. No one. So.....back to treating patients and learning the field of anesthesiology. When I am done, I will introduce myself as Dr.Tye, the Anesthesiologist, and that will be it.

By the way, has everyone seen the post about the "Clinical Doctorate of Nursing." (Not to be confused with the academic doctorate of nursing.) Face it people, more and more people while be trying to squeeze in use titles, mislead patients, and the biggest reason they might acheive this eventually is because people will declare they can do the same thing cheaper.

You answered your own question in your previous paragraph when you said, "DOs have different initials because they are so-called "different" degrees, but it is considered fraudulent when we would try to use the MD designation." .... you are exactly right!
The reason graduates of british system medical schools who have the degree MBChB or MBBS are able to use the title MD in the US is because they are both equivilant "allopathic" medical schools. Although the DO degree (in the US) is equivilant to the US MD. Osteopathic medicine is founded on a different philosphy of what causes disease and how to treat patients. So this is why DOs are not allowed to do this.

As smart as American people claim to be, they don't question their healthcare providers enough, so many charlatans can walk in and say/do whatever. Most patient who see someone in scrubs (especially the beat-up faded OR scrubs work best! ) draped in long white coat, who introduces themselves as DrX, while wholeheartedly assume you are a physician. It was even almost scary how much people thought that I was
"The Doctor" when I came into the room as a medical student, even after a proper introduction!

I do agree with you that patients need to be more informed and personally involved in their own healthcare. 👍

 

[Sage880]

Threads like this are everything that's wrong in SDN. Stop trying to put each other down to make yourselves feel better. Life is not one big pissing contest.

 

[AMG_MD]

Is lol over some little boy who has never treated a single human being for anything and has taken a couple of biology courses and thinks he can tell people what they can call themselves.

based on his wording he is most likely 22 or 23. or less.

either way when you start saving lives. for real, then you can have an opinion that counts.

until then just try to get into med-school first so that at least you can start to formulate an educated opinion.

EH.

Why the heck are you getting so personal? All it takes is for someone to raise a question about IMG's, and every pompous foreigner who is here in the US leaching off of our medical system tries to preach how their training is better than ours. If thats the case, then why don't you go back? Don't try and hide your insecurities by flaming a honest question.

 

[Miklos]

Why the heck are you getting so personal? All it takes is for someone to raise a question about IMG's, and every pompous foreigner who is here in the US leaching off of our medical system tries to preach how their training is better than ours. If thats the case, then why don't you go back? Don't try and hide your insecurities by flaming a honest question.

Please don't feed the troll. Thanks.

 

[OzDDS]

every pompous foreigner who is here in the US leaching off of our medical system tries to preach how their training is better than ours.

First of all, look at the stats. I think IMGs make up a large portion of the medical workforce in the US. The IMGs who are here are obviously fully qualified medical practiciners if they were able to obtain certification and a residency in the US.

You say, go back to where you come from? Ok, Mr. Xenophobe. If forgein doctors came to the US obtained their training and then left I could see how might infer that they were leaching.. (even though I don't think that is the best word to describe the situation.) And even if they did get their training and then leave.. so what! You should be proud that that doctor decided to come to the US to get his/her training and then go serve a needy community elsewhere in the world whereever that may be. There are lots of US-MDs who leave the US and migrate to other parts of the world to work. What's wrong with that.

Most of the foreign docs who migrate here and do their residencies, end up staying and working in the US. I don't see this as leaching.. I see this as filling spots and providing a much needed service to the US and it's citizens.

 

[Red_Pulp]

Is this guy suggesting that all African Americans to go back to Africa, all Caucasians to go back to Europe because they leached off the Native Americans? And the Native Americans to go back to Africa because they leached off the buffalos? Well, at least he was better at being funny than Friends.

 

[AMG_MD]

Is this guy suggesting that all African Americans to go back to Africa, all Caucasians to go back to Europe because they leached off the Native Americans? And the Native Americans to go back to Africa because they leached off the buffalos? Well, at least he was better at being funny than Friends.

No I'm not suggesting anything like that, *****.

 

[Red_Pulp]

Your computer screen is clean enough to reflect your face? But still be nice, however pathetic you are. Cheers!🙂

 

[Waiting4Ganong]

The children are getting restless again. Bad enough some little 20yr boy is saying the 300,000+ doctors in the UK aren't "real" doctors (based on his terminally weak misunderstanding of the origins and legitimacy of academic degree nomenclature) but then the pre-meds start fighting out their insecurities in public. Surely enough mud has been thrown and nasty names called for:
a) for this thread to be condemned to that big trashcan in the sky
and
b) some kids get a "time-out" until they can play nice with the grown ups (and people actually in, or graduated from, medical school).

On a more general note - what about starting a password protection version of this site where only real medical students and doctors could offer their thoughts based on real experience rather than conjecture/adolescent fantasies? We have that in the UK and it certainly cuts out this whole "troll" problem.

W4G.

 

[erichaj]

There is lots of hatred for IMG as well as just being from another country. I've noticed that increase since 9/11. Yes, 9/11 was a terrible event in our time. However, the hatred did not start there, it just came out in the open at that time. there is hatred on both sides. it's not just ameriacans. By american I mean all americans. But, where I live, it seems that only the white feel like they are american. Even if and Indian or middle eastern or asian is born here, they looked at as second class citizens.

This general point of view seems to be among many people and extends among the doctors as well. Not all doctors, but many. They feel threatened.

Or, they just hate. the same thing happened during WWII. If you look different from the rest and some people in your culture have done things to make the rest look bad, then all of us are bad.

This happens because if you look like everyone else, they can't point a finger at you.

The truth is white, black , indian , middle eastern, asian, all of our cultures have done very bad things in their history.

we just have to look at ourselves and we will see our history. the problem is no one like to analize themself.

I'm worried about the direction this country is going. Our government and right wing groups are pointing the finger to across the ocean and the other guys are doing the same.

But I thought we were suppose to be different in this nation. We believe in peoples rights, freedom. We don't need to point the finger and create more fear and hatred.

doctors are doing the same thing. Somehow, they think that they will not be able to compete. Even if there were no IMG in this country, they would still have a hard time in medicine. This is the nature of medicine at this time in the united states.

This country a whole is far more angry than they were 10 years ago or even 2 years ago. People are dying, some of the people you treat have children that have died in the Iraq conflict. They may hate you simply for having dark skin and being from that part of the world. They may embrace you because you hare here, helping them.

Just recently I had some very hateful private mail from someone in this website. It's not important who. I had sent him a private message asking him for more information on something he had said in a post. he sent a private message insulting me with racial comments. I wrote him back calling me an a-hole. He came back with more insults. But his true colors came out when he started to call me a terrorist and make many insults about my country of origin. SAD, a doctor, would do such a thing. SAD, a fearful human being would do such a thing.

But, this is the nature of the times we live in.

Doctors a just people, and they have fear and hate like everyone else. No matter how educated they may be.

EH

 

[Pili]

Anubis, you forget that people overseas have more specialized high school training and receive the same amount of pre-clinical training equivalent to undergraduate training that we do in undergraduate college. So while they're in high school, they already start learning things like ochem / physics to a more advanced degree than we do. And then that is built upon during the pre-clinical years. I know a lot of us have had good science backgrounds from AP courses, but in general, US secondary education lags behind. It doesn't seem to have an adverse affect because they graduate just as competent a doctor as we do, and so they should be eligible to call themselves MDs. The only thing may be is the maturity factor since they graduate younger than we do by about 4 years. However, responsibility and maturity are usually gained once you're in a clinical setting and you have duties / have to act professionally.

The high school system in Europe is in fact more challenging than any US undergraduate degree. College algebra is at the 10 year old level. For Europeans, US college tests seem like a joke. No offense intended. Just fact.
However, US Medical SChool is FAR SUPERIOR to any other country. It has nothing to do with the undergrad vs. grad issue. If anything, IMGs are more prepared going into Med School. The Med. Educaton itself is what is important, and US has the best.

 

[Pili]

Is this guy suggesting that all African Americans to go back to Africa, all Caucasians to go back to Europe because they leached off the Native Americans? And the Native Americans to go back to Africa because they leached off the buffalos? Well, at least he was better at being funny than Friends.

True. Real Americans would be the Native Indians. Everybody else please pack your bags and head for your ancestor's land! Which, I believe, is Africa for all of us...

 

[johnny_blaze]

The high school system in Europe is in fact more challenging than any US undergraduate degree. College algebra is at the 10 year old level. For Europeans, US college tests seem like a joke. No offense intended. Just fact.
However, US Medical SChool is FAR SUPERIOR to any other country. It has nothing to do with the undergrad vs. grad issue. If anything, IMGs are more prepared going into Med School. The Med. Educaton itself is what is important, and US has the best.

What are you basing this on? Have you been to both a US and European med school?

I was in a PM conversation with a member who has just written his USMLE’s after studying medicine in the U.K (like I am currently doing). He told me that the USMLE’s weren’t anymore difficult that the exams we take in the U.K. He said that the American clinical skills exam was far easier than the ones we do here. Some medical schools here require that a clinical skills examination (of at least 30 stations) be undertaken at the end of EVERY year to ensure that our clinical competence remains strong.

I don’t think you’re correct in assuming that US medical schools are far superior, but I am open minded and I am willing to except it if you can prove it 😉 . You can use IMG USMLE pass results to support your statement but I’d like to see the pass rates for just UK grads instead of a general list that also includes countries who do not have a similar status of teaching resources.