The Value of a BS/DDS Program

[smartc00kie]

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Hi,

I am currently in high school and I have the opportunity to apply to several BS/DDS programs and I am wondering if it is worth committing to one school for my DDS degree (I have shadowed a dentist, etc. so I know that I am committed to dentistry. Additionally, I have the grades necessary to get into most if not all of the BS/DDS programs on my list).

My end goal is to secure a perio or endo or ortho position (haven't decided yet, and I will wait dental school to make up my mind). I basically want to go to a school where I will be somewhat of a standout when I apply to the endo/ortho/perio programs (i.e. having research opportunities at dental school, going to a prestigious dental school, etc)

My options are:

University of Detroit Mercy BS/DDS (I will likely get a full tuition scholarship undergrad, close to home) 7 year program

New York University BS/DDS (soooo expensive) 7 year program

Howard University BS/DDS (I love DC!) 6 year program

Case Western BS/DDS (6 year or 8 year option, but 6 year doesn't receive Bachelor's)

Which, if any, of these programs would be worth it? I like the idea of graduating a little earlier and I like the idea of guaranteed admission to dental school, but I want to be sure that these programs will leave me competitive for endo/perio/ortho programs.

Thanks!

 

[Waitlisted2009]

All of them would be worth it, everyone on here is going to say go to UDM and that looks great. I would say do it.

 

[Ranelar]

If I understand correctly, you haven't been accepted to any of these programs yet. Why not apply to all of them and see where you get accepted first? Having the stats does not guarantee admission, particularly for special programs such as these.

Also, why is the title of this thread BS/MD? 😛

 

[smartc00kie]

Wow. Title fail. I meant BS/DDS. For some reason I typed BS/MD even though I don't want to be an MD. Great.


It is correct to say I haven't been accepted yet, but I am confident that I will do well in the admissions process. The purpose of the thread is to assess the value of a BS/DDS route over a tradition route...

 

[nchrist]

If I understand correctly, you haven't been accepted to any of these programs yet. Why not apply to all of them and see where you get accepted first? Having the stats does not guarantee admission, particularly for special programs such as these.

Also, why is the title of this thread BS/MD? 😛

Why not apply and see where he is accepted? Because s/he has posted multiple BS/MD, BS/DDS, BS/DO threads identical to this one and it's probably really expensive to apply to that many programs. Awfully presumptuous about where s/he will get in, too.

 

[Ranelar]

I doubt anyone around here would know the value of such a program in terms of getting into a specialty later, since most of us are pre-dents. The only con I can think of, however, is that an adcom might consider you less well rounded since you'd probably skip a lot of the frilly english/history/art/language classes that the rest of us had to take.

Would you have to sign a contract that binds you to the program, or could you apply outside if you wanted to later?

 

[smartc00kie]

^ I don't believe that there is a contractual obligation for any of the programs, but the 6 year programs are DDS only, non-BS programs so it would be pretty difficult to apply elsewhere...

 

[Ranelar]

You don't need a BS to apply to dental school. You need the science pre-reqs, which is what these programs will give you.

 

[smartc00kie]

Awfully presumptuous about where s/he will get in, too.

Again, the purpose of the thread is not to assess my chances of getting into these BS/DDS programs, but rather the merits of the programs as a whole.

 

[Chesnok]

If all the aspects like tuition etc. are the same for DC and Case, you may go to DC if you like it and 6 years with BS behind your back, but if you'd spend less money at UDM, which is closer to you, you may go where too. So, we kind of eliminated NYU...so now apply and what schools are all about and then choose.
Good luck.

 

[smartc00kie]

Thanks. I can't find a lot of info off of their websites. Is UDM decent for research, or would I be better off at Case or Howard?

I agree that NYU should be cut because it would be an extra $50000 of debt for no reason, plus the extra undergrad cost.

 

[setdoc7]

I did the combined degree program at NYU. Full ride in undergrad and half ride in DS. 20 credits first semester of freshman year when I was there (1976) and no less than 18 thereafter, and 1 semester o summer school in undergrad to cram in some extra courses. I was also 1 year younger than everyone else in college (skipped 9th grade, NYC SP) and then 2 years younger than everyone in DS. I know you can still do this at the Pacific program if you do their combined degree, but graduating at 24 was not so great. Missed out on a lot of the fun in college. Having lots of fun since, but you know what they say...you're only young once.
Went on to a GPR and then OMFS, but left OMFS to go back to GP (did not like anesthesia). Now in private practice and a GPR residency director.
Here's my advice....go to a college with solid academics and a chance to have some fun....football, basketball, greek system....something. NYU is terribly boring unless you are rich and have lots of cash to spend in expensive NYC (I am a native New Yorker). If you are as smart as you represent yourself to be, you should have no problem getting into the school of your choice for college, and then DS. Detroit Mercy is not a frontline first choice, especially if you think specialty is in your future. Harvard, Penn, Columbia, UCLA, UNC, UConn all place a lot of students in good residencies.

Good luck

 

[Waitlisted2009]

Detroit Mercy is not a frontline first choice, especially if you think specialty is in your future. Harvard, Penn, Columbia, UCLA, UNC, UConn all place a lot of students in good residencies.

Good luck

Why do you say this? So you as a GPR Residency Director are taking the stance that the school you graduate from has some name behind it and helps applicants from that school get admitted?

 

[Doctor McLovin]

Hi,

I am currently in high school and I have the opportunity to apply to several BS/DDS programs and I am wondering if it is worth committing to one school for my DDS degree (I have shadowed a dentist, etc. so I know that I am committed to dentistry. Additionally, I have the grades necessary to get into most if not all of the BS/DDS programs on my list).

My end goal is to secure a perio or endo or ortho position (haven't decided yet, and I will wait dental school to make up my mind). I basically want to go to a school where I will be somewhat of a standout when I apply to the endo/ortho/perio programs (i.e. having research opportunities at dental school, going to a prestigious dental school, etc)

My options are:

University of Detroit Mercy BS/DDS (I will likely get a full tuition scholarship undergrad, close to home) 7 year program

New York University BS/DDS (soooo expensive) 7 year program

Howard University BS/DDS (I love DC!) 6 year program

Case Western BS/DDS (6 year or 8 year option, but 6 year doesn't receive Bachelor's)

Which, if any, of these programs would be worth it? I like the idea of graduating a little earlier and I like the idea of guaranteed admission to dental school, but I want to be sure that these programs will leave me competitive for endo/perio/ortho programs.

Thanks!

Those four schools are very average dental schools. Not terrible like Midwestern or Western or whichever one Waitlisted2009 will be attending this fall but just not good. As much as these clowns on SDN like to pretend that dental school's prestige doesn't matter for specialty admissions, it does matter. The whole "you can do anything if you put your heart into it!" kind of attitude that perpetuate on this forum just makes me sigh in disgust. Technically, it's "possible" that you can go to Compton High School and then get into Harvard. You can go to Midwestern and then get into Hopkins OMFS. But realistically, neither of those things will ever happen.

But, that's not what's important. If you are confident in getting into BA/DDS combined programs, you should be an all-star high school student. I have no doubt in my mind that you can go to one of those dental schools you listed and ultimately graduate in the top 10% of your class as well as ace the Boards, ultimately leading you to a specialty. But I don't know if you and your ego would be content with attending a sorry ass school like University of Detroit Mercy or Howard. What are their average SAT scores like 1300? Don't you feel like you want a bigger stage? To prove to people and most importantly to yourself and you belong with the best of them?

Out of high school, I was accepted into UoP's 5 year BA/DDS combined program. I chose to attend a top 10 college instead, where I knew I could see how I measure up against the best and the brightest of the country. Going through that experience was so fulfilling and the friendships and connections I've made will be invaluable in the future. Your classmates will be the leaders of every imaginable field in the country and you will be part of a group that is a cut above others. I have dental school coming up this year and looking back it's kind of funny because had I gone the UoP route, instead of being a first year dental student, I would be a full fledged dentist. But I would be just another small timing, narrow minded, low expectation dentist with no ambition other than to make 150k/yr. If becoming an orthodontist your only goal in life then go ahead and attend one of those combined degree schools. There's a lot more to life than just dentistry. You should make this decision based on your life and other aspects of you life. If you have the opportunity to attend a top 10 undergraduate school, I would think very hard about turning it down. It will be an accomplishment in itself that very few percentage of the population can share.

Another thing to consider about the pre-dental losers, who will inevitably bash prestigious undergrad schools by claiming that the education they receieved at Western Kentucky University is just as good, is that they never had the opportunity to attend one. If you haven't noticed, the pre-dental forum is filled with students who attend average colleges. Check predents.com, it's ugly. Take their advice with a gran of salt.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

I did the combined degree program at NYU. Full ride in undergrad and half ride in DS. 20 credits first semester of freshman year when I was there (1976) and no less than 18 thereafter, and 1 semester o summer school in undergrad to cram in some extra courses. I was also 1 year younger than everyone else in college (skipped 9th grade, NYC SP) and then 2 years younger than everyone in DS. I know you can still do this at the Pacific program if you do their combined degree, but graduating at 24 was not so great. Missed out on a lot of the fun in college. Having lots of fun since, but you know what they say...you're only young once.
Went on to a GPR and then OMFS, but left OMFS to go back to GP (did not like anesthesia). Now in private practice and a GPR residency director.
Here's my advice....go to a college with solid academics and a chance to have some fun....football, basketball, greek system....something. NYU is terribly boring unless you are rich and have lots of cash to spend in expensive NYC (I am a native New Yorker). If you are as smart as you represent yourself to be, you should have no problem getting into the school of your choice for college, and then DS. Detroit Mercy is not a frontline first choice, especially if you think specialty is in your future. Harvard, Penn, Columbia, UCLA, UNC, UConn all place a lot of students in good residencies.

Good luck

Good advice but damn you're old as hell lol

 

[babyeater]

BS/DDS is the way to go. If I knew I wanted to be a dentist in HS I would have done one for sure! You are way ahead of the curve, congrats on capitalizing on it!

 

[gryffindor]

setdoc7 and I have disagreed on this topic before, but neither of our opinions reads like the predent McLovin's uninformed spiel.

Five years ago, I graduated from a 7 year program as well. Since then, I have done a GPR, worked for a year, am now 6 weeks away from finishing my ortho residency, and am planning to start a practice in the next year. I can recall other students from my dental school who also did the 7 year program who are now also orthodontists, a periodontist, a pedodontist, and several GPs who are above and beyond the narrow minded ones McLovin apparently knows. My undergrad experience was best described as meh (very easy to graduate at the top of your class when everyone around you is mediocre), and my dental school experience was socially fun but academically a very rough ride (very difficult to graduate at the top of your class when there are many others competing to also be up there). However, I finished at 24 with little debt from a cheap state school combined with a scholarship to undergrad. My life and the opportunities I have had since then have been nothing short of fantastic. Although they were 7 years of hell when I was trudging through them, looking back now I have no regrets having survived them.

 

[ChubbyBaby]

setdoc7 and I have disagreed on this topic before, but neither of our opinions reads like the predent McLovin's uninformed spiel.

Five years ago, I graduated from a 7 year program as well. Since then, I have done a GPR, worked for a year, am now 6 weeks away from finishing my ortho residency, and am planning to start a practice in the next year. I can recall other students from my dental school who also did the 7 year program who are now also orthodontists, a periodontist, a pedodontist, and several GPs who are above and beyond the narrow minded ones McLovin apparently knows. My undergrad experience was best described as meh (very easy to graduate at the top of your class when everyone around you is mediocre), and my dental school experience was socially fun but academically a very rough ride (very difficult to graduate at the top of your class when there are many others competing to also be up there). However, I finished at 24 with little debt from a cheap state school combined with a scholarship to undergrad. My life and the opportunities I have had since then have been nothing short of fantastic. Although they were 7 years of hell when I was trudging through them, looking back now I have no regrets having survived them.

6 weeks! 😱 It's funny I've lurked around SDN for a very very long time. I've always found your posts very honest and insightful. I followed your progress , and if i remember correctly, you didn't get in on the first try, and when you did match it was like 7th choice! Anway, congrats on almost being done! 🙂 Makes me feel old. 😛 I look forward to your posts as an orthodontist in private practice. I've always thought orthodontics is an over-rated specialty, but what do i know.

 

[gryffindor]

6 weeks! 😱 It's funny I've lurked around SDN for a very very long time. I've always found your posts very honest and insightful. I followed your progress , and if i remember correctly, you didn't get in on the first try, and when you did match it was like 7th choice! Anway, congrats on almost being done! 🙂 Makes me feel old. 😛 I look forward to your posts as an orthodontist in private practice. I've always thought orthodontics is an over-rated specialty, but what do i know.

I graduated dental school at 24, and I was young, single, and naive at the time. I didn't get in until my third try, and looking back I think I screwed up many interviews on my first and second attempts because I just had never experienced something at the level of competition based on personality judgement before. I didn't have any "real world" experience interviewing for jobs. However, along the same lines, I was young and single so I was able to move anywhere I got accepted to residency which is what I did - I ranked my program choices based on location and not quality although I am very satisfied with the way my residency experience panned out. I think I'm still young, but not single anymore so if I had to move away for residency today, my life would have a different level of suck for the next few years of residency.

 

[ChubbyBaby]

I graduated dental school at 24, and I was young, single, and naive at the time. I didn't get in until my third try, and looking back I think I screwed up many interviews on my first and second attempts because I just had never experienced something at the level of competition based on personality judgement before.

I think i remember one of your posts from waay back, where you said something like you almost had to be a jerk (well, at least not be a pushover) at the interviews to make an impression and compete with people going for ortho.

Oh, and just so nobody's confused, I didn't point out that it took gryf a couple of tries to smack down 7-year-programs or state schools. Just wanted to highlight that gryffindor has been a valuable and candid poster on SDN.

 

[setdoc7]

Why do you say this? So you as a GPR Residency Director are taking the stance that the school you graduate from has some name behind it and helps applicants from that school get admitted?

Don't be naive. That is not to say that applicants from other schools don't get in as well, but there are MANY factors involved in residency admission.

 

[setdoc7]

And by the way Gryf, congrats on graduating, but I cannot get behind the 7 years of hell scenario. Life as a dentist is great, with lots of opportunities, but I would not have given up 4 years of fun in college if I could do it again.

 

[Waitlisted2009]

Don't be naive. That is not to say that applicants from other schools don't get in as well, but there are MANY factors involved in residency admission.

I am asking if the brand name of the school we go to is one of these many factors involved in residency admission.

Some say the school we go to does not matter and some say it does, so your statement makes it seem that it does play some sort of role and I wanted to clarify this.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

setdoc7 and I have disagreed on this topic before, but neither of our opinions reads like the predent McLovin's uninformed spiel.

Five years ago, I graduated from a 7 year program as well. Since then, I have done a GPR, worked for a year, am now 6 weeks away from finishing my ortho residency, and am planning to start a practice in the next year. I can recall other students from my dental school who also did the 7 year program who are now also orthodontists, a periodontist, a pedodontist, and several GPs who are above and beyond the narrow minded ones McLovin apparently knows. My undergrad experience was best described as meh (very easy to graduate at the top of your class when everyone around you is mediocre), and my dental school experience was socially fun but academically a very rough ride (very difficult to graduate at the top of your class when there are many others competing to also be up there). However, I finished at 24 with little debt from a cheap state school combined with a scholarship to undergrad. My life and the opportunities I have had since then have been nothing short of fantastic. Although they were 7 years of hell when I was trudging through them, looking back now I have no regrets having survived them.

You were able to accomplish your goal of becoming an orthodontist on your third try? So you saved a year in BA/DDS and lost three years. So how is that a good deal? Don't talk about your "invaluable experience" through GPR or making 45k from it.👎

OP, my point is, you have to make a decision based on what you value in life. If becoming a dental specialist as soon as possible is the only thing that is important to you, then I support the BA/DDS route. (Although gryffindor's example clearly shows that it might not be much of a time saver) I searched you and read that you have a 4.0 GPA and 33 ACT. Although your ACT could use a little bit of a boost, your stats are very impressive and I can guarantee you that 99% of the pre-dental losers on SDN had worse stats in high school. They simply never had the opportunity to attend a top undergraduate institution like you do. You have an incredible opportunity to really expand your horizons and be part of an exclusive group of people that is composed of the best and the brightest. I would have hard time passing that up, unless money really is that big of a deal.

""However, I finished at 24 with little debt from a cheap state school combined with a scholarship to undergrad.""
This comment bothers me. It is the echoing message on SDN pre-dental - go to the cheapest undergrad, it doesn't matter, go to the cheapest dental school, it doesn't matter. What kind of standards do you have for yourself? I can tell by gryffindor's comments how ordinary she is. But then again, I expect nothing less from someone who has been surrounded by nothing but ordinary students and ordinary professors at an ordinary institution. I bet her college friends are so impressed with her "accomplishment" of becoming an orthodontist. That truly is an accomplishment for Buffalo graduates! When I become an orthodontist or a OMFS, NONE of my college friends will be impressed. We have different standards of excellence.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

I am asking if the brand name of the school we go to is one of these many factors involved in residency admission.

Some say the school we go to does not matter and some say it does, so your statement makes it seem that it does play some sort of role and I wanted to clarify this.

Where you went to high school matters for college admission.
Where you went to college matters for dental school admission.
Where you went to dental school matters for specialty admission.
Where you went to college matters for business school admission.
Where you went to college matters for law school admission.
Where you went to college matters for engineering school admission.
Where you went to business/law/engineering school matters for getting hired.

For every phenom who went to Compton high school and got into MIT, who went to San Diego State University and got into Harvard Dental, who went to UoP Dental and got into UCLA Orthodontics, there are 9,857 losers who didn't make it.

Did you really think that just because you and I fall under the same umbrella of "dental student," that we are equal?

 

[gryffindor]

You were able to accomplish your goal of becoming an orthodontist on your third try? So you saved a year in BA/DDS and lost three years. So how is that a good deal? Don't talk about your "invaluable experience" through GPR or making 45k from it.👎

I didn't lose any years. After 7 years, I was done with my education and done with my academic career. I was free from ever having to stress over an exam or practical again and that has been HUGE. I think back to the non-trads who were in my class and wow, if I had to go back to dental school now at age 29, I would be able to handle the coursework but there is little chance I would be able to keep myself motivated to compete and graduate at the top. There are too many other interesting things to do with my life than to be memorizing extra minutiae to be a gunner at this point. If I didn't get into an ortho program, my backup career would've been general dentistry. Hmmm, not a bad backup career, especially at age 24.

""However, I finished at 24 with little debt from a cheap state school combined with a scholarship to undergrad.""
This comment bothers me. It is the echoing message on SDN pre-dental - go to the cheapest undergrad, it doesn't matter, go to the cheapest dental school, it doesn't matter. What kind of standards do you have for yourself? I can tell by gryffindor's comments how ordinary she is. But then again, I expect nothing less from someone who has been surrounded by nothing but ordinary students and ordinary professors at an ordinary institution. I bet her college friends are so impressed with her "accomplishment" of becoming an orthodontist. That truly is an accomplishment for Buffalo graduates! When I become an orthodontist or a OMFS, NONE of my college friends will be impressed. We have different standards of excellence.

The purpose of my educational pursuits has not been to be able to make awesome facebook updates to impress college peers. 🙄

If you don't want to believe those on SDN, then go over the Dentaltown and ask this same question. You will be told by thousands of practicing dentists to go to the cheapest dental school and to keep your educational debt down. Actually many dentists over there don't know how much dental school costs these days and may not believe you if they learn that places like USC and NYU are charging almost $100K per year. I don't know about going to the cheapest undergrad because I do agree with setdoc7 that undergrad can be a unique experience so maybe that experience has some dollar value. However, there are very few reasons to choose a significantly expensive dental school over a cheaper alternative.

What pre-dents don't understand is that the debt you accumulate from your education isn't the end of your loans. Given today's tuition, it is likely a pre-dent could graduate with $350K in debt (let's say $50K undergrad, $300K dental school). If you want to specialize in ortho or OMS, it's very possible you can tack on another $200K+ in loans with either tuition for the ortho program or the MD part of OMS. Now your debt load is $550K. Now if you want to start or purchase your own private practice because being a business owner is where the real risk and financial reward of a dental career is, then it is very likely you could be signing for another $400K loan. You have now hit almost $1 million ($950K) in loans and HAVE YET TO SEE YOUR FIRST PAYING PATIENT WALK THROUGH THE DOOR. Add to that your wife wants to buy a house and you have been eyeing to upgrade your crappy 10 year old car. If you think $1 million in debt without your first payday isn't a big deal, then maybe you should go to Washington and get in line for a bailout. Don't forget, student loans don't get erased in bankruptcy.

Oh yeah, and if you're lucky to get into an ortho program that pays you a salary or do a 4 year non-MD OMS program (so you get a salary all 4 years), then be prepared to start making your $350K loan repayments on your $50K salary. Thank your friends in Congress for that.

 

[setdoc7]

Keep in mind Gryff, and I am in no way disagreeing with what you just posted, but.......rich kids who go to high profile expensive colleges (Harvard, Stanford, Duke, etc) don't have student loans to pay back. I had a few of them in DS even back in my day. A completely different set of rules.

 

[gryffindor]

Keep in mind Gryff, and I am in no way disagreeing with what you just posted, but.......rich kids who go to high profile expensive colleges (Harvard, Stanford, Duke, etc) don't have student loans to pay back. I had a few of them in DS even back in my day. A completely different set of rules.

I agree. I think if a student is paying for dental school and even undergrad mostly with loans, it is smart to consider the total amount being borrowed. There are lots of kids on SDN looking at paying for dental school with 100% loans. If mom and dad, Uncle Sam, or a scholarship are paying the tab for your education, then obviously the financial burden doesn't matter and you can instead focus or the name or number of hot girls as the criteria for which school you attend.

Adding: setdoc, I was just thinking this morning that when I get to be in your shoes, I'll probably look back and think that extra year saved didn't make such a huge difference in my overall career. But right now, that year has made a significant difference in the five years I've been out.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

The purpose of my educational pursuits has not been to be able to make awesome facebook updates to impress college peers. 🙄

A bunch of whining about money

Put it this way, your college friends from Buffalo are now working in various fields making a respectable living. My college friends from a top 10 school are/will be the leading those fields and are/will be employing your friends. When is the last time you've seen a graduate of University of Buffalo do anything significant?

Your quoting other dentists in some forum is further proves my point. Pre-Dental Students/Dental Students/Dentists in general have such a big fish in a small pond mindset. Go to a top 10 college, it'll open your eyes and give you the kind of perspective and big picture of the world that someone like gryffindor could never fathom. The connections that you'll establish is well worth the price tag.

 

[armorshell]

I could post all the research I've posted before that shows the individual is the most important aspect of the equation, and that the quality of the school has little to do with success. I could go on and on about pre-conceived factors, selection bias, motivation, etc... I could systematically ruin every argument you've made in this thread.

But I'm tired. You realize some inexperienced pre-dent rolls on to this board every 2-3 months spewing this same rhetoric, right? What makes you think that you, making the exact same arguments, are going to succeed where they clearly failed?

So I'll say this:
You have just as much real evidence as anyone else to prove your point: none.

 

[DrReo]

You were able to accomplish your goal of becoming an orthodontist on your third try? So you saved a year in BA/DDS and lost three years. So how is that a good deal? Don't talk about your "invaluable experience" through GPR or making 45k from it.👎

OP, my point is, you have to make a decision based on what you value in life. If becoming a dental specialist as soon as possible is the only thing that is important to you, then I support the BA/DDS route. (Although gryffindor's example clearly shows that it might not be much of a time saver) I searched you and read that you have a 4.0 GPA and 33 ACT. Although your ACT could use a little bit of a boost, your stats are very impressive and I can guarantee you that 99% of the pre-dental losers on SDN had worse stats in high school. They simply never had the opportunity to attend a top undergraduate institution like you do. You have an incredible opportunity to really expand your horizons and be part of an exclusive group of people that is composed of the best and the brightest. I would have hard time passing that up, unless money really is that big of a deal.

""However, I finished at 24 with little debt from a cheap state school combined with a scholarship to undergrad.""
This comment bothers me. It is the echoing message on SDN pre-dental - go to the cheapest undergrad, it doesn't matter, go to the cheapest dental school, it doesn't matter. What kind of standards do you have for yourself? I can tell by gryffindor's comments how ordinary she is. But then again, I expect nothing less from someone who has been surrounded by nothing but ordinary students and ordinary professors at an ordinary institution. I bet her college friends are so impressed with her "accomplishment" of becoming an orthodontist. That truly is an accomplishment for Buffalo graduates! When I become an orthodontist or a OMFS, NONE of my college friends will be impressed. We have different standards of excellence.

Give me some of the gold spoon. We have a serious case of:

 

[DrReo]

Put it this way, your college friends from Buffalo are now working in various fields making a respectable living. My college friends from a top 10 school are/will be the leading those fields and are/will be employing your friends. When is the last time you've seen a graduate of University of Buffalo do anything significant?

Your quoting other dentists in some forum is further proves my point. Pre-Dental Students/Dental Students/Dentists in general have such a big fish in a small pond mindset. Go to a top 10 college, it'll open your eyes and give you the kind of perspective and big picture of the world that someone like gryffindor could never fathom. The connections that you'll establish is well worth the price tag.

This superb school must be really, well, impressive. I have met many students in high school (from rural areas that are not known) spell better and understand the English language than an elitist, like yourself.

 

[gryffindor]

Your quoting other dentists in some forum is further proves my point. Pre-Dental Students/Dental Students/Dentists in general have such a big fish in a small pond mindset. Go to a top 10 college, it'll open your eyes and give you the kind of perspective and big picture of the world that someone like gryffindor could never fathom. The connections that you'll establish is well worth the price tag.

If the small pond mentality offends you, then leave because it's where the dentists all hang out. Why do you even want to be a dentist? Use your top 10 connections and go do something big, world-news big. When's the last time you saw a dentist making national headlines?

 

[smartc00kie]

Ok, this got a little insane so I will ask some new questions. Will going to Detroit Mercy for dental school limit my career possibilities? Will I still be able to secure a residency, or will it be significantly more difficult than if I went to, say, UMichigan's school of dentistry?

Let's try not to debate the merits of an Ivy League education because I want to save my money for dental school rather than paying for an Ivy League undergrad education. If I don't do the combined BS/DDS I will likely go to UMichigan undergrad.

 

[Boat on the Chesapeake]

Do you know what the requirements are to stay in these programs? It would be a shame to have a rough semester in college (for any number of reasons) and lose your early acceptance. Some might have more realistic college GPA/DAT requirements than others.

 

[DrReo]

Ok, this got a little insane so I will ask some new questions. Will going to Detroit Mercy for dental school limit my career possibilities? Will I still be able to secure a residency, or will it be significantly more difficult than if I went to, say, UMichigan's school of dentistry?

Let's try not to debate the merits of an Ivy League education because I want to save my money for dental school rather than paying for an Ivy League undergrad education. If I don't do the combined BS/DDS I will likely go to UMichigan undergrad.

Go Blue! Tempting isn't it?

 

[Doctor McLovin]

If the small pond mentality offends you, then leave because it's where the dentists all hang out. Why do you even want to be a dentist? Use your top 10 connections and go do something big, world-news big. When's the last time you saw a dentist making national headlines?

Maybe that's the problem - the field of dentistry is filled with low expectation people like you. No wonder dentists get disrespected left and right. How do you expect people to give give you the same level of respect that is given to physicians and surgeons if you don't respect yourself. You're content and even happy being a big fish in a small pond because you don't have higher expectations for yourself. You're practical but you have aspired to be average, not spectacular. Again, I expect nothing less from someone who has planned her life and career path based on saving money. Different strokes for different folks. I just wish this field had more ambitious people who have bigger goals and won't just settle for practicing orthodontics and making 300k a year. It's kind of sad that that is your life long dream.

OP, it sounds like you fit the mold of a typical SDN pre-dental/dental student. Then my advice would be "choose the cheapest option."

 

[gryffindor]

Ok, this got a little insane so I will ask some new questions. Will going to Detroit Mercy for dental school limit my career possibilities? Will I still be able to secure a residency, or will it be significantly more difficult than if I went to, say, UMichigan's school of dentistry?

Let's try not to debate the merits of an Ivy League education because I want to save my money for dental school rather than paying for an Ivy League undergrad education. If I don't do the combined BS/DDS I will likely go to UMichigan undergrad.

Despite McLovin's non answers, I'll try to answer your questions. You can specialize from any school. It will not be significantly more difficult from Detroit Mercy versus Michigan. It all depends on your board scores and class rank at the time of application. Pre-dents don't believe it, but it really is up to the individual student to achieve the highest scores and class rank possible to keep all specialty options open regardless of which dental school you attend.

 

[ToldYouSo]

Smartcookie I am also doing a 7 year bs/dds program at NYU and my advice is to go to to a combined program if any. I think that much of the pressure gets taken off once you know what the expectations are and not having to apply to so many d-schools sounds like a life-saver.

And after reading all of Mclovin's posts I am surprised that he hasn't been banned yet to be honest. Maybe his top 10 connections are keeping him from being banned, although I may not know much since I might be considered one of the "99% of pre-dental losers" on this forum. It is a sad life for sure, why can't I be as great as McLovin? XD

 

[Mister Incisor]

OP: A very good and successful dentist passed along some great wisdom to me in regards to specializing. He said that until you gain the experiences of dental school, making a decision like that is unnecessary and over-the-top. The dentist in question happened to fall in love with the simpler cases in general dentistry and that guided him to where he is today. Might be a good idea to limit your focuses a bit. At the same time, it sounds like you are a hard-worker and are highly motivated, so good luck with your plans.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

Smartcookie I am also doing a 7 year bs/dds program at NYU and my advice is to go to to a combined program if any. I think that much of the pressure gets taken off once you know what the expectations are and not having to apply to so many d-schools sounds like a life-saver.

And after reading all of Mclovin's posts I am surprised that he hasn't been banned yet to be honest. Maybe his top 10 connections are keeping him from being banned, although I may not know much since I might be considered one of the "99% of pre-dental losers" on this forum. It is a sad life for sure, why can't I be as great as McLovin? XD

How are you gonna give advice to OP when you are still in high school.
If you guys are good enough to get into BA/DDS programs, dental school admissions will be cakewalk. It sounds like your based your decision in big part by financial reasons. That's fine, good for you. But don't justify it with felonious facts and call it the only way to go.

A lot of pre-dental kids won't admit this...but if you got a 2100+ on the SAT and 700+ on the SAT Subjects Tests in Biology and Chemistry, you can take the DAT tomorrow and get 21s in all sections except the Organic Chemistry and the PAT. Go to predents.com or the ADEA book and look the average GPAs at dental schools, they range from 3.3~3.7. I'm guessing you guys have gotten 3.95 or 4.0 in high school.

You can take this Detroit Mercy route, finish a year early, and become a dental specialist. But is that your dream? Is that really being all you can be? You were at the top in high school but that was just being a small fish in a big pond, just like excelling in Detroit Mercy will be. Why don't you be a man and prove yourself against the big boys? See how you measure up and if you can come out on top, you will have truly accomplished something to be proud of. That you competed with the best of the best and held your own.

Again, my view on this will be unpopular but just look at the people that make up the majority of this pre-dental forum. People that have subpar standards, that are content with going to average schools, that surround themselves with ordinary peers, and that consider money to be the biggest deciding factor in choosing dental schools. It is truly sad how limited these peoples' viewpoints are.

And you wonder why the nation's elites look down upon dentists - a group that consists of 2nd rate people with even more average standards. In the end, a big hourse or a Porsche might impress your upper middle class friend, but through the eyes of the nation's elites, you'll still be a small-timer.

 

[setdoc7]

I think this has gone way over the top. After all, smartcookie is still in high school and a lot can happen in college. For instance, three of the people in my combined degree program never went on to dental school at all (there were 25 of us in the BA-DDS program at NYU in 1976). Two just kind of flunked out, were having too much fun in college. One committed suicide, walked in front of a car on the highway. This was after a rigorous interview process which included a psychological exam. So let's not jump the gun here. A lot can happen.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

I think this has gone way over the top. After all, smartcookie is still in high school and a lot can happen in college. For instance, three of the people in my combined degree program never went on to dental school at all (there were 25 of us in the BA-DDS program at NYU in 1976). Two just kind of flunked out, were having too much fun in college. One committed suicide, walked in front of a car on the highway. This was after a rigorous interview process which included a psychological exam. So let's not jump the gun here. A lot can happen.

I completely agree but that suicide anecdote is just kinda random and unnecessary...RIP though.

 

[setdoc7]

I don't think people really look down on dentists, as Mclovin would like to say. I think that as pre dents and dental students the opportunities that this profession provides seem very narrow, when in reality, dentistry is a profession which gives you enough free time to pursue other interests. Can you become a "tycoon" from dentistry......it depends. Those with some creativity and ambition will do very well, maybe not Bill Gates well, but then again, how many people are Bill Gates?

 

[Doctor McLovin]

I don't think people really look down on dentists, as Mclovin would like to say. I think that as pre dents and dental students the opportunities that this profession provides seem very narrow, when in reality, dentistry is a profession which gives you enough free time to pursue other interests. Can you become a "tycoon" from dentistry......it depends. Those with some creativity and ambition will do very well, maybe not Bill Gates well, but then again, how many people are Bill Gates?

People in general don't look down on dentists. But people that make up the upper echelon of the society do look down on dentists. Just because you make 200K or 300K, doesn't mean that you'll get the respect from those who actually matter in the society. This trend will continue as long as dental students and dental professional continue perpetuating this ghetto dogma that one should always go to the cheapest undergrad and follow it up with the cheapest dental school. What is the single word that describes dentists? PRACTICAL. What we need is more dental students with higher aspirations and higher standards. I hope that can change but it's pretty tough when someone like gryffindor swears that Detroit Mercy is the way to go. That is practical but what happened to striving for excellence?

 

[armorshell]

How are you gonna give advice to OP when you are still in high school.

If you guys are good enough to get into BA/DDS programs, dental school admissions will be cakewalk. It sounds like your based your decision in big part by financial reasons. That's fine, good for you. But don't justify it with felonious facts and call it the only way to go.

A lot of pre-dental kids won't admit this...but if you got a 2100+ on the SAT and 700+ on the SAT Subjects Tests in Biology and Chemistry, you can take the DAT tomorrow and get 21s in all sections except the Organic Chemistry and the PAT. Go to predents.com or the ADEA book and look the average GPAs at dental schools, they range from 3.3~3.7. I'm guessing you guys have gotten 3.95 or 4.0 in high school.

Isn't "just" a 21 aiming a little low for your tastes?

You can take this Detroit Mercy route, finish a year early, and become a dental specialist. But is that your dream? Is that really being all you can be? You were at the top in high school but that was just being a small fish in a big pond, just like excelling in Detroit Mercy will be. Why don't you be a man and prove yourself against the big boys? See how you measure up and if you can come out on top, you will have truly accomplished something to be proud of. That you competed with the best of the best and held your own.

Wait, what was that analogy again?

Again, my view on this will be unpopular but just look at the people that make up the majority of this pre-dental forum. People that have subpar standards, that are content with going to average schools, that surround themselves with ordinary peers, and that consider money to be the biggest deciding factor in choosing dental schools. It is truly sad how limited these peoples' viewpoints are.

You have literally no evidence that any dental school is objectively better than any other school. Therefore, there is no such thing as an average school, and your argument is worthless. Besides, you're begging the question.

And you wonder why the nation's elites look down upon dentists - a group that consists of 2nd rate people with even more average standards. In the end, a big hourse or a Porsche might impress your upper middle class friend, but through the eyes of the nation's elites, you'll still be a small-timer.

People in general don't look down on dentists. But people that make up the upper echelon of the society do look down on dentists. Just because you make 200K or 300K, doesn't mean that you'll get the respect from those who actually matter in the society. This trend will continue as long as dental students and dental professional continue perpetuating this ghetto dogma that one should always go to the cheapest undergrad and follow it up with the cheapest dental school. What is the single word that describes dentists? PRACTICAL. What we need is more dental students with higher aspirations and higher standards. I hope that can change but it's pretty tough when someone like gryffindor swears that Detroit Mercy is the way to go. That is practical but what happened to striving for excellence?

Since when do the "nation's elites" look down on dentists? I'd love to see where you found that information.

Not only that, but if the nation's elite universally look down on dentists, what is going to a "good" school going to matter? You're going to be a small timer no matter what, right?

Are you even going to dental school? If you are, why? It seems to fly in the face of everything you believe in.

 

[gryffindor]

People in general don't look down on dentists. But people that make up the upper echelon of the society do look down on dentists. Just because you make 200K or 300K, doesn't mean that you'll get the respect from those who actually matter in the society. This trend will continue as long as dental students and dental professional continue perpetuating this ghetto dogma that one should always go to the cheapest undergrad and follow it up with the cheapest dental school. What is the single word that describes dentists? PRACTICAL. What we need is more dental students with higher aspirations and higher standards. I hope that can change but it's pretty tough when someone like gryffindor swears that Detroit Mercy is the way to go. That is practical but what happened to striving for excellence?

Whatever top 10 you attend, clearly they don't teach reading comprehension there. I never told the OP Detroit Mercy is the way to go.

Even the nation's elites (who is an elite? Paris Hilton or Colin Powell?) have to turn to a dentist when they get a toothache. No one else can possibly bail them out at that point.

Just answer armorshell's question - why are you ranting on a pre-dental board when clearly dentistry is not the pathway for you?

 

[Istr8nthem]

People in general don't look down on dentists. But people that make up the upper echelon of the society do look down on dentists. Just because you make 200K or 300K, doesn't mean that you'll get the respect from those who actually matter in the society. This trend will continue as long as dental students and dental professional continue perpetuating this ghetto dogma that one should always go to the cheapest undergrad and follow it up with the cheapest dental school. What is the single word that describes dentists? PRACTICAL. What we need is more dental students with higher aspirations and higher standards. I hope that can change but it's pretty tough when someone like gryffindor swears that Detroit Mercy is the way to go. That is practical but what happened to striving for excellence?

I find most of what you say somewhat offensive, and what is more offensive, is it is the responses to your idiocy that fuel your fire. (most) People do not go into dentistry to be the beacon of everyone's desire. (most) People do not have the life goal of being a dentist to impress others. (most) People do not go into dentistry to show their friends that they too are worthy people. (most) People choose dentistry because it is a satisfying career that allows them the financial stability and time to have a life outside of their career. Money to be able to afford your family the ability to travel, live in a safe community, etc. Time to raise a family, travel, hang out with friends, etc.

For you to say that we need more dental students with higher aspirations is silly. To those dental students, they are likely fulfilling THEIR dream just by being in dental school, any dental school. They are not trying to "be the best they can be" by attending Ivy League Universities and Dental schools, they are trying to minimize financial burden while achieving their dreams of getting into dental school. While I agree that one should always try to be the best that they can be in everything they do, I do not agree that this includes doing what YOU consider to be "the best". For me, the best was going to a good liberal arts college and play DIII soccer while "studying hard enough", get into my state dental school, specialize in orthodontics and practice where I grew up. I "strove for excellence" and am as successful as I ever hoped to be without fulfilling any of the B.S. you suggest is necessary to "get the respect from those who actually matter in the society," because I don't care as long as I am happy, my family is happy and my patients are happy.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

UPenn has a vet school, Johns Hopkins has a nursing school. How much respect do you have for veterinarians and nurses?

I like everything about dentistry EXCEPT the fact that there are a lot of people in it who are flat out small timers with nothing bur ordinary goals and average standards. Who are the nation's elites? Politicians, business executives, lawyers, physicians/surgeons, and etc. Not dentists. These people were the best of the best in high school and in colllege, while most dentists were above average but not in the top. *Go ahead and cite some FELONIOUS examples about 3rd tier law schools or osteopathic doctors.* You wanna know why people say dentists are failed doctors? Because it's full of students who struggled in college, like you armorshell, who make up the majority of the student body in dental school.

Go to any top 10 school, scratch that, any top 20 school in the country, and see how many students want to be dentists. My top 10 schoo didn't even have a pre-dental club. Why? Because the top students do not want to be dentists! This is the case not because dentistry is a bad field, but because it's associated with being ordinary and not spectacular. THIS HAS TO CHANGE. I want the best and the brightest of the country to CHOOSE dentistry over medicine. I want dentists to be par of the upper echelon.

 

[Doctor McLovin]

I find most of what you say somewhat offensive, and what is more offensive, is it is the responses to your idiocy that fuel your fire. (most) People do not go into dentistry to be the beacon of everyone's desire. (most) People do not have the life goal of being a dentist to impress others. (most) People do not go into dentistry to show their friends that they too are worthy people. (most) People choose dentistry because it is a satisfying career that allows them the financial stability and time to have a life outside of their career. Money to be able to afford your family the ability to travel, live in a safe community, etc. Time to raise a family, travel, hang out with friends, etc.

For you to say that we need more dental students with higher aspirations is silly. To those dental students, they are likely fulfilling THEIR dream just by being in dental school, any dental school. They are not trying to "be the best they can be" by attending Ivy League Universities and Dental schools, they are trying to minimize financial burden while achieving their dreams of getting into dental school. While I agree that one should always try to be the best that they can be in everything they do, I do not agree that this includes doing what YOU consider to be "the best". For me, the best was going to a good liberal arts college and play DIII soccer while "studying hard enough", get into my state dental school, specialize in orthodontics and practice where I grew up. I "strove for excellence" and am as successful as I ever hoped to be without fulfilling any of the B.S. you suggest is necessary to "get the respect from those who actually matter in the society," because I don't care as long as I am happy, my family is happy and my patients are happy.

Different people have different standards and if those are your standards then good for you. If you read my earlier posts, I did mention that the OP should decide based on how much he values the deciding factors. In the end, when he mentioned how cost was a big factor for him, I said he should go to the BA/DDS route. I'm sorry for coming on so strong but I had to take a stance so the other point of view could be seen. Everyone has their own standards, yes. But SDN Pre-Dental is a cult with a very established standard that everyone of its members should follow. And the non-brainwashed members should know, there are other standards.