theories on allied health/low matric rate?

[TheLadyVanishes]

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After reading all these RN to MD threads, I am wondering why allied health have such a low matric rate to medical school?

 

[DrMidlife]

SDN threads are neither a significant nor representative sample of the applicant pool. Generally people come to the nontrad forum for help figuring things out, and that frequently means GPA damage. When there's GPA damage, you can't blame allied health. Or age.

Best of luck to you.

 

[TheGrand]

This is just my theory formulated from my experience since I'm an RN student hoping to get into medical school after my BSN.

Allied health schools are professional schools, and therefore their style of teaching has more than one dimension to it since they have to incorporate knowledge-based facts into clinical application compared to say, a biology major who only have to focus on knowledge-based facts. You also have to study and memorize different procedures on top of those.

I think that's the reason why allied health professionals are graduating with lower GPA's, hence lower matriculation rate to medical schools.

Try reading my post about my rant on nursing school, 🙂
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=864948

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Based on the post above me, it sounds like you are trying to argue that an allied health degree is harder and more rigorous so people don't get the higher grades. If that is what you are saying, I completely disagree with that. I took some classes at a nursing heavy school and the nursing sciences are nothing compared to the hard sciences.

The reason I think there is such a low matriculation for allied health students is because there are less students. Allied health is a specialty school so people go into those programs for a reason. To come out in that specialty. Most nurses want to be nurses. There is also less of the type A personality in allied health programs, so you get fewer students with the "gotta be the top" mentality. I have talked to an endless number of nursing students and the vast majority say, "just need a 75% or more." This is not a premed mentality. It is like saying, "not to many actuarial science majors go to med school." It is a specialized field that most people know they want to go in to when they start.

 

[jl lin]

Based on the post above me, it sounds like you are trying to argue that an allied health degree is harder and more rigorous so people don't get the higher grades. If that is what you are saying, I completely disagree with that. I took some classes at a nursing heavy school and the nursing sciences are nothing compared to the hard sciences.

The reason I think there is such a low matriculation for allied health students is because there are less students. Allied health is a specialty school so people go into those programs for a reason. To come out in that specialty. Most nurses want to be nurses. There is also less of the type A personality in allied health programs, so you get fewer students with the "gotta be the top" mentality. I have talked to an endless number of nursing students and the vast majority say, "just need a 75% or more." This is not a premed mentality. It is like saying, "not to many actuarial science majors go to med school." It is a specialized field that most people know they want to go in to when they start.

As a graduate of nursing colleg quite some time ago, I must agree with Frky above. Also, while there are some of us in certain areas, such as critical care and the like that are more anal retentive. . .and indeed the nature of working in such areas often calls for this. . .there is a sad number of those in nursing and allied health that don't go above and beyond in terms of learning and growing in their area of specialty. People that think learning is just for getting grades may not progress beyond that mentality. . .unless they have some special revelation or something that was always inquisitive inside of them; thus they they become motivated to understand beyond the prerequisites. Again, some in allied health and nursing have that inquisitive nature and motivation, but I am disappointed by the number that do not. I mean you have to practically beg nurses to participate in conferences, voluntary research, and writing and publication to advance their profession. Yes, I know many are raising families and such. I am one of those as well. But the desire to learn more and to improve my practice, and where possible, my profession, was always there--even against a sad amount of intra-nursing opposition.

Also, aud, I don't feel my nursing education has ever been one dimensional at all. . .even going back a ways. If anything, I learned about a lot of things, but then I became frustrated b/c time did not permit going into more depth--that is, until I focused on a specialty area, practiced in it for a number of years, and frequently studied and researched it on my own and with a body of like-minded professionals.

Frankly, I have been disappointed with the acceptable amount of robotic thinking from many in nursing. (Yes, of course this is a generalization--so hopefully no one will get their thongs twisted on that opinion.)

I know moving beyond that baseline can be a hassle. (And indeed some have very weak baselines or at least very limited baselines, and are OK to stay that way.) But the whys have always been important to me--and that's often been a point of frustration for me in nursing.

One of the best things about working in critical care has been working with physicians as well as some good NPs and such that value teaching, and they don't care if they are teaching other physicians, residents, med students, nurses, or any other kind of allied health worker. Working with these kinds of teaching/mentoring folks as well as seeing a good number of excellent outcomes in the various areas of critical care (which is not always or even often--the "failures"--old term from medicine--those that don't fair so well, to be euphemistic--seem cyclical in nature--well, working with such committed people and seeing the good or optimal outcomes--or even making the best out of the sub-optimal ones--that's what kept me in nursing over the years.

I also think that what Dr. Midlife says is quite logical.
Also, I think a lot of nurses like at least a good part of nursing, and they opt to start families and such. Both together is a lot. . .but then there are those that think raising a family is such a walk in the park--pretty much a breeze--hardly work at all. That is totally not my experience at all. For many reasons, it is all more complicated than some are willing to see. Kind of like keeping that healthy marital relationship going--you get lazy or overwhelmed, it gets neglected, and it will become a problem at some point. That brutal honesty is hard to swallow--unless you have perfectly easy going children (and spouse/partner)--but even then that changes somewhat as children and people grow. But that's another topic.

I am just saying that I feel the higher percentage of nurses and others in allied health end up getting through school, getting positions, and begin focusing on doing the family thing. It takes a tons of motivation to pursue medical school acceptance and then the whole med school-to-post-medschool-grad thing to period. Put on raising a family and working in another, often, demanding profession, even part time, and it's outrageously tough IMHO. You can only be pulled in so many directions, and then eventually something will give.


I think this was a good topic for discussion.

Also, pretty much anyone one in medicine, nursing, or allied health that works in acute and/or critical care areas, well, they are often prime candidates for burnout. Burnout can lead to just letting the whole matriculation process go--and getting to that place is easier than many may think.

 

[montessori2md]

Also, the pre-reqs for allied health are quite different than pre-med. Honestly, most people would look at all the $$$ they would lose between not working and tuition, and all the work involved with going MD/DO, and decide it isn't worth it. There are so many other ways to move up the ladder or to get out of your department, you almost have to be obsessed with being an MD to go to the bother.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I think it might have to do with a couple of things.

I think the biggest thing is that most people go into allied health programs with the intention of being in that profession not medical school, so they don't push themselves much beyond what's needed to finish. I didn't apply myself as much as I could have my first time through with the biology degree because I wasn't planning on medical school. Now my gpa shows that. Then I did my lab science degree with the intention of working in that field and then going to medical school. My gpa for that rocks, but most of my classmates were content to just do what they needed to pass the program. I think our matric rate is lower because we've started off in another direction and have slightly weaker apps for it.

Another issue I think is perception of the difficulty. I have a friend who did a bachelor's in biology first, then went back and did a BSN after a break. She said the nursing equivalent classes were a bit watered down from the bio. versions. This seems to be school specific or even class specific, but I do think there's a stereotype with some people that allied health classes aren't as hard. I did a bio degree before my clinical lab science degree and in that case I'd say most of the classes were harder than my previous degree, though more enjoyable.🙂

I think you just need to bust your butt to do well know and you won't need to worry about the matriculation rates.

 

[Nasrudin]

I agree. Multi-factorial.

Maybe having most to do with the nature of terminal professional degree. It takes an order of magnitude more focus on performing to impress to make it to medical school. This would never be something I would equate with grandeur as some do. More to do with pathos.

So. If you can't put it down. And have to do well on every little puzzle or chance to work your brain. Pointlessly. The the olympic competition of medical school admissions will suit you.

Very rarely does this sort of mindset consume the job-getting mentality. Once admitted to medical school it is even possible to take this approach. Wherein competitive academics goes by the wayside.

 

[TheGrand]

Based on the post above me, it sounds like you are trying to argue that an allied health degree is harder and more rigorous so people don't get the higher grades. If that is what you are saying, I completely disagree with that. I took some classes at a nursing heavy school and the nursing sciences are nothing compared to the hard sciences.

The reason I think there is such a low matriculation for allied health students is because there are less students. Allied health is a specialty school so people go into those programs for a reason. To come out in that specialty. Most nurses want to be nurses. There is also less of the type A personality in allied health programs, so you get fewer students with the "gotta be the top" mentality. I have talked to an endless number of nursing students and the vast majority say, "just need a 75% or more." This is not a premed mentality. It is like saying, "not to many actuarial science majors go to med school." It is a specialized field that most people know they want to go in to when they start.

You're right, I do sound like I'm implying that allied health schools are harder, sorry about that. What I'm trying to imply is that allied health schools are different than an academic degree. Their style of teaching is different and I think some people may have a harder time adjusting to it than others, but it's not necessarily harder. It's just different.

When you're talking about nursing students saying "just need 75% or more" and that's not a premed mentality, those students are having a harder time adjusting to nursing school from a more "traditional" class. Do you think that pre-nursing students can get in with a 3.0-3.5? Nursing schools are competitive to get into at least from my area, and a lot of us have GPA's of 3.7 and upwards. Mine was a 3.9 pre-nursing and all of my pre-nursing classes (Gen. Chem, Micro, etc.) were all taken from the science department alongside the pre-pharmacist, pre-dental, and pre-med students. I can tell you now that I have a "premed" mentality since I never get scores below 90% before nursing school. I even score higher on tests on my sciences compared to my gungho premed classmates. Now, I'll be happy if I pass beyond the 75% passing score. It's just one of those things that you have to experience it to know how different it is.

Also, there's no question that nursing science is watered down. Having to know specific details about science and applying it clinically, we might as well become doctors but that's what medical school is for.

@jl lin - I never said nursing school was one dimensional, please read my post again. I said that nursing school is multi-dimensional compared to the academic degree, albeit with a watered-down science since we're not science majors.

Disclaimer - Of course, all of the things that I just mentioned are from my experience in my college and nursing program.

 

[TheLadyVanishes]

I've heard that the AAMC statistics indicate a lower matric rate for allied health versus other students. Does anyone know the exact numbers?

@audqyee - I agree re GPA. At my college, students could be bio or biochem majors as long as they kept up a 2.0 and graduated on time. Now of course those 2.0 students are probably NOT the ones who are pre-meds. But for the allied health majors, I doubt anyone could get in with less than a 3.0. The programs were in my experience also much stricter with regards to enforcement when it came to grades.

Very interesting thoughts about personality types being attracted to allied health vs. medical school.

@FrkyBgStok and jl lin - I too have encountered the same attitudes of "acceptable rather than outstanding" or robotic thinking. I do have coworkers who love their profession and take pride in it but I think they are the exception rather than the rule. People don't think outside the box and watch the clock with glazed eyes for the end of their shift. To be fair, yes you are right that many of them have families or other responsibilities, and a reasonably well-compensated career is an acceptable trade-off.

Nevertheless, it makes me wonder whether the academic work we put in as students was even worth it if this is where we end up. Frankly I can see myself being there before long, which is why I'm trying to get out.

 

[Nasrudin]

I've heard that the AAMC statistics indicate a lower matric rate for allied health versus other students. Does anyone know the exact numbers?

@audqyee - I agree re GPA. At my college, students could be bio or biochem majors as long as they kept up a 2.0 and graduated on time. Now of course those 2.0 students are probably NOT the ones who are pre-meds. But for the allied health majors, I doubt anyone could get in with less than a 3.0. The programs were in my experience also much stricter with regards to enforcement when it came to grades.

Very interesting thoughts about personality types being attracted to allied health vs. medical school.

@FrkyBgStok and jl lin - I too have encountered the same attitudes of "acceptable rather than outstanding" or robotic thinking. I do have coworkers who love their profession and take pride in it but I think they are the exception rather than the rule. People don't think outside the box and watch the clock with glazed eyes for the end of their shift. To be fair, yes you are right that many of them have families or other responsibilities, and a reasonably well-compensated career is an acceptable trade-off.

Nevertheless, it makes me wonder whether the academic work we put in as students was even worth it if this is where we end up. Frankly I can see myself being there before long, which is why I'm trying to get out.

Yes. That is the essential difference.

Do I get off the wagon train here. And settle in Kansas. Or do I push along for everything I'm worth. To get at that California gold.

This compromises the difference of the achievement-oriented. And is necessary for the price of admission. There is a double side to that weapon though. That begs the question of once drawn. How does the blade get back to the scabbard. Cause. It will kill you. Once there's no more adversaries. Then who does one look to fight. Besides the self.

This is why the state of medicine is laden with the forlorn and the malcontent. Because they too wonder. After all this. Is this all....?

 

[jl lin]

You're right, I do sound like I'm implying that allied health schools are harder, sorry about that. What I'm trying to imply is that allied health schools are different than an academic degree. Their style of teaching is different and I think some people may have a harder time adjusting to it than others, but it's not necessarily harder. It's just different.

When you're talking about nursing students saying "just need 75% or more" and that's not a premed mentality, those students are having a harder time adjusting to nursing school from a more "traditional" class. Do you think that pre-nursing students can get in with a 3.0-3.5? Nursing schools are competitive to get into at least from my area, and a lot of us have GPA's of 3.7 and upwards. Mine was a 3.9 pre-nursing and all of my pre-nursing classes (Gen. Chem, Micro, etc.) were all taken from the science department alongside the pre-pharmacist, pre-dental, and pre-med students. I can tell you now that I have a "premed" mentality since I never get scores below 90% before nursing school. I even score higher on tests on my sciences compared to my gungho premed classmates. Now, I'll be happy if I pass beyond the 75% passing score. It's just one of those things that you have to experience it to know how different it is.

Also, there's no question that nursing science is watered down. Having to know specific details about science and applying it clinically, we might as well become doctors but that's what medical school is for.

@jl lin - I never said nursing school was one dimensional, please read my post again. I said that nursing school is multi-dimensional compared to the academic degree, albeit with a watered-down science since we're not science majors.

Disclaimer - Of course, all of the things that I just mentioned are from my experience in my college and nursing program.

Gotcha. My bad. Yes even in my pathophysiology course, I was left feeling unsatisfied. I can only strive to fill in the gaps on my own time....

 

[TriagePreMed]

This is just my theory formulated from my experience since I'm an RN student hoping to get into medical school after my BSN.

Allied health schools are professional schools, and therefore their style of teaching has more than one dimension to it since they have to incorporate knowledge-based facts into clinical application compared to say, a biology major who only have to focus on knowledge-based facts. You also have to study and memorize different procedures on top of those.

I think that's the reason why allied health professionals are graduating with lower GPA's, hence lower matriculation rate to medical schools.

Try reading my post about my rant on nursing school, 🙂
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=864948

LOL serious? At my school they had to make a "chemistry for health science" class that allied health students take because they were failing General Chemistry at too high rate. Now they just learn the bare minimum facts.

Maybe it's just my perception, but I feel that allied health people are not very science inclined in general. This is not to say they are stupid or incapable, but instead that they are much more interested in patient care and practical knowledge rather than the pure science passion that usually accompanies physicians. I also feel that most allied health people are pretty happy doing their work. Not everyone wants to be a doctor.

 

[jl lin]

LOL serious? At my school they had to make a "chemistry for health science" class that allied health students take because they were failing General Chemistry at too high rate. Now they just learn the bare minimum facts.

Maybe it's just my perception, but I feel that allied health people are not very science inclined in general. This is not to say they are stupid or incapable, but instead that they are much more interested in patient care and practical knowledge rather than the pure science passion that usually accompanies physicians. I also feel that most allied health people are pretty happy doing their work. Not everyone wants to be a doctor.

Some truth there, but you have to remember that it depends on the particular program. In my school, there was no special bio course or the like for nursing or allied health. Everyone had to sit n the same bio courses. It just all depends, I think. And you are right. Most nursing and allied health I have worked with don't want to get too far into the science of things. In fact some may resent you if you focus too much on the science...but I felt it was unavoidable in many areas of critical care.

 

[n3xa]

LOL serious? At my school they had to make a "chemistry for health science" class that allied health students take because they were failing General Chemistry at too high rate. Now they just learn the bare minimum facts.

Maybe it's just my perception, but I feel that allied health people are not very science inclined in general. This is not to say they are stupid or incapable, but instead that they are much more interested in patient care and practical knowledge rather than the pure science passion that usually accompanies physicians. I also feel that most allied health people are pretty happy doing their work. Not everyone wants to be a doctor.

Yeah, I had this scenario in my undergraduate institution as well. I took a microbio class for allied health majors to polish off my bio GE requirement. I was young, dumb, and didn't seek out counseling. It was a fun class, but I needed more detail. MOAR!

 

[drgioiadds]

To quote my DO mentor -- being a physician is 90% communication skills. Maybe allied health programs are not as science heavy as a traditional Bio degree, but IMO, hard work will get you through the preclinical sciences.

 

[TheLadyVanishes]

LOL serious? At my school they had to make a "chemistry for health science" class that allied health students take because they were failing General Chemistry at too high rate. Now they just learn the bare minimum facts.

Maybe it's just my perception, but I feel that allied health people are not very science inclined in general. This is not to say they are stupid or incapable, but instead that they are much more interested in patient care and practical knowledge rather than the pure science passion that usually accompanies physicians. I also feel that most allied health people are pretty happy doing their work. Not everyone wants to be a doctor.

Same here, they had "orgo for nursing students" with less hrs and no lab. But even if allied health students do get a pass at first, then they have to take "real" genchem/orgo/bio etc because they're med school prereqs.

Good point about the interest in science. I double majored in a traditional science. I don't brag or anything, but if I try to tie something at work in with something I learned in my other major, they're like "who cares" or "why is that relevant". To some extent they're right and I'm not being more efficient or any better at the job than they are, if anything worse because my head's in the clouds.

So ... sneakily hoping that since I have a high GPA and premed traits that have made me a misfit, that I'll beat the allied health odds? 😀

 

[TheLadyVanishes]

Same here, they had "orgo for nursing students" with less hrs and no lab. But even if allied health students do get a pass at first, then they have to take "real" genchem/orgo/bio etc because they're med school prereqs.

Good point about the interest in science. I double majored in a traditional science. I don't brag or anything, but if I try to tie something at work in with something I learned in my other major, they're like "who cares" or "why is that relevant". To some extent they're right and I'm not being more efficient or any better at the job than they are, if anything worse because my head's in the clouds.

So ... sneakily hoping that since I have a high GPA and premed traits that have made me a misfit, that I'll beat the allied health odds? 😀

Or hehe, decent GPA (3.7) because those darn premed prereqs caused my GPA to crater as a sophomore.