Therapeutic dosage at lower than expected rates?

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Ceke2002

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Question: Say you have a medication (pick a med, any med) that has a therapeutic dose range that starts at a minimum of 100 mgs, but you have a patient who is (clearly and observably) showing a therapeutic response at a dosage of 25 mgs. Is that an example of a fast metaboliser, or is there something else at work physiologically?

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*ahem* Just in the interests of trying to push a certain thread further down the page...:whistle: Question: Say you have a medication (pick a med, any med) that has a therapeutic dose range that starts at a minimum of 100 mgs, but you have a patient who is (clearly and observably) showing a therapeutic response at a dosage of 25 mgs. Is that an example of a fast metaboliser, or is there something else at work physiologically?
They would be a slow metabolizer, not fast. Fast metabolizers require higher than usual dosing.
 
Considering I placed the above person on ignore, to prevent me from jumping any further into other discussions I really don't care to have, just after the above was posted perhaps someone else could be kind enough to link me up with some accessible reading material on slow metabolisation and its effects on therapeutic dosage levels, or give me a brief run down of the physiology?

I'll be applying for my Undergrad pre-med course in a few days time, admission won't be until mid year 2016, but I'd still like to start preparing for a return to study with some interesting topics I can delve into. :)
 
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Something else at work psychologically maybe. As psychiatrists, we never discount the power of suggestion and the placebo effect.

A relative of mine was covering a mentor’s practice in the mid-50s and it was a current fad to treat menopause with estrogen injections Q month. There was no science behind this and recent academics were against this practice as the half-lives and therapeutic claims made no sense. Well, the mayor’s wife came in for her shot and my recently graduated relative was going to prove his point and injected her with saline figuring he would tell her the good news about not needing the shot next month. I’m sure you can see this coming, but the next month she came in raving about how superior his shots were than anyone else’s and she insist that he take over her estrogen treatments thereafter. Needless to say, he radically altered his treatment plan and caved in. Isn’t the practice of medicine grand?
 
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Something else at work psychologically maybe. As psychiatrists, we never discount the power of suggestion and the placebo effect.

A relative of mine was covering a mentor’s practice in the mid-50s and it was a current fad to treat menopause with estrogen injections Q month. There was no science behind this and recent academics were against this practice as the half-lives and therapeutic claims made no sense. Well, the mayor’s wife came in for her shot and my recently graduated relative was going to prove his point and injected her with saline figuring he would tell her the good news about not needing the shot next month. I’m sure you can see this coming, but the next month she came in raving about how superior his shots were than anyone else’s and she insist that he take over her estrogen treatments thereafter. Needless to say, he radically altered his treatment plan and caved in. Isn’t the practice of medicine grand?

Yes, of course you'd have to factor in the placebo effect - 'I believe this medication is going to work, therefore it will'. So apart from giving a patient a placebo and telling them it's the real thing to gauge if they respond in the same way to the actual medication, how else can you tell the difference between psychological influence and physiological? Or is it usually a case of both interplaying with one another?
 
So kind of diversion and kind of not, how many of you actually order genetic enzyme testing? Have you found it useful?
 
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I would say both are always at play, they are inextricable.
 
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So kind of diversion and kind of not, how many of you actually order genetic enzyme testing? Have you found it useful?
And has anyone ever found that it directs their clinical practice in a way they weren't already inclined to go?

(My answer to both of your questions is "No", in case you hadn't guessed...)
 
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Genetic testing is useful only to tell how medications are metabolized. We don't have an accurate blood test which can predict how medications will behave based on unique neurochemistry.
 
I would say both are always at play, they are inextricable.

Yes, I can definitely see that. I've always found, at least with one particular condition, that my pain level drops perceptibly if I know I have immediate access to pain medication (and therefore I need to take less of said medication), whereas if I don't have immediate access when the pain starts, or I decide to be an idiot and not obey my Doctor's orders to take the medication at the first onset of symptoms, then I'm more likely to end up in a panic, have an increased awareness of pain, and therefore need to take a higher dosage of medication.

Then again I've also had situations where I have not expected a medication to work (so no psychological expectations of efficacy or instant healing per say) and I've been surprised when it's worked at a far lower dosage than expected. I suppose in that case you'd also have to factor in a coincidental spontaneous remission of symptoms, especially if the medication was started reluctantly and took several months of convincing by a Psychiatrist to even give it a go.

This is all very fascinating. :)
 
I assume that the doses companies decide to test medications at are dependent on animal studies and trying to translate that to human effectiveness, but I have no idea. I do know that drugs gain approval at certain strengths, and I would guess that plays a role in the way drugs are viewed in terms of their effectiveness. I've had genetic testing, and in my case one of the results (intermediate CYP2C19 metabolizer) seems to hold true in real life results. Other people in my family who haven't had testing simply seem to be extremely med sensitive. I don't think there's any official recognition of such a state, but anecdotally it seems to be the case. There are a number of people on my dad's side of the family who are on what doctors call "homeopathic" (not literally) doses of medicines for either heart or mental health issues, where just a very small amount seems to make a big difference. Could be neuroticism or could have some actual biological basis.
 
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Two other possibilities-malingering or the patient was misdiagnosed and the improvement is treating a disorder that is effectively treated at a lower dosage for the other disorder.

E.g. person with borderline PD is misdiagnosed for bipolar disorder.
Bipolar Disorder has a therapeutic dosing at about 400 mg +.
For borderline PD there is data showing at 150 mg it helps but at higher dosages it does not help more than the 150 mg dosage.
 
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Two other possibilities-malingering or the patient was misdiagnosed and the improvement is treating a disorder that is effectively treated at a lower dosage for the other disorder.

E.g. person with borderline PD is misdiagnosed for bipolar disorder.
Bipolar Disorder has a therapeutic dosing at about 400 mg +.
For borderline PD there is data showing at 150 mg it helps but at higher dosages it does not help more than the 150 mg dosage.

For discussions sake lets assume the patient is not malingering and has not been misdiagnosed (and there therapeutic response at a lower than typical dosage can't be adequately explained by spontaneous remission or the placebo effect alone), what does that mean then? Are we talking just a simple case of everyone's an individual, factoring in things like age, sex, height, weight, etc, a metabolic process of some sort? Is it possible to test for medication efficiency at particular dosages (higher, lower, somewhere in the middle) before a patient is even given a certain medication (like does their exist a test, or is one being worked towards, whereby it could be pinpointed that 'Jo Bloggs here has X condition and based on his pre-medication tests we can determine he needs a dosage of not less than Y mgs of ABC medication', for example).
 
Two other possibilities-malingering or the patient was misdiagnosed and the improvement is treating a disorder that is effectively treated at a lower dosage for the other disorder.

E.g. person with borderline PD is misdiagnosed for bipolar disorder.
Bipolar Disorder has a therapeutic dosing at about 400 mg +.
For borderline PD there is data showing at 150 mg it helps but at higher dosages it does not help more than the 150 mg dosage.

I'd say, just for S&G's, titrate to ensure the person is sleeping (and not overly sedated) and continue with therapy.
 
I assume that the doses companies decide to test medications at are dependent on animal studies and trying to translate that to human effectiveness, but I have no idea.
Maybe initially, but they do studies on humans to try to figure out the proper and tolerable doses.
 
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For discussions sake lets assume the patient is not malingering and has not been misdiagnosed (and there therapeutic response at a lower than typical dosage can't be adequately explained by spontaneous remission or the placebo effect alone), what does that mean then? Are we talking just a simple case of everyone's an individual, factoring in things like age, sex, height, weight, etc, a metabolic process of some sort? Is it possible to test for medication efficiency at particular dosages (higher, lower, somewhere in the middle) before a patient is even given a certain medication (like does their exist a test, or is one being worked towards, whereby it could be pinpointed that 'Jo Bloggs here has X condition and based on his pre-medication tests we can determine he needs a dosage of not less than Y mgs of ABC medication', for example).

Going to try and answer this without taking you through 2 years of medical school. The short answer is: We do, but it's not how you've envisioned it. The medications you take that are FDA approved have (theoretically) already been analyzed across age, sex, weight, race, underlying disease differences for a given dose, and been tested at a wide range of doses to arrive at the treatment doses your doctor prescribes. Beyond this, we DO account for the other drugs a patient is taking and their overall medical condition when dosing any medication. Some drugs increase the rate by which certain other drugs are metabolised, others slow it down. We know this. A patient with chronic kidney disease is unable to excrete renally-cleared drugs as well as the (generally healthy) population the drug was approved in. So we have to dose it differently (decrease the dose). But that same CKD patient can take normal doses of a hepatically metabolised drug. We don't have to do specialized tests for this, we use some basic tools - getting the patient's history and physical and running very basic labs (eg. BMP/CMP) - and our knowledge of physiology, pharmacology, and experience from medical school and beyond.

More: There's usually no reason to re-invent the wheel when millions of dollars have already been spent on drug development by chasing after a gene or two when we don't fully understand how the concert of gene products influences drug metabolism and action, in part because we don't know all the players and in part because a violin alone in a room sounds different from a violin in a full orchestra. Genetic tests are expensive. We don't usually do genetic testing for medication dosing/administration for the aforementioned reason. One of the first necessary tests that comes to come to my mind is HLA-B5701 testing for abacavir hypersensitivity, and another is HCV genotyping (but there we're testing the profile of the virus and not the patient). In Psychiatry, from my very limited experience as a 4th year medical student, you'll run genetic testing for patients who a) can afford it and b) have been nonresponders or have had weird reactions to multiple different classes of psychotropic medications. I only have limited experience in PP but at least in my VA, county, and academic private rotations I have very very rarely seen this done. There's a reason why drugs go through extensive testing before they make it to market, and why they're tested on broad populations. Your hope is that some trends in ethnicity, gender, underlying conditions emerge in the drug development process, or at worst in the few years after drug hits market, to better guide treatment. Similarly, these studies often guide dosing in the sense that investigators study drug levels in the serum and correlate with patient symptoms to figure out what that therapeutic dosage is (eg. lithium 0.8-1.2 meq/l). As I hinted to above, the recommended dosing on a medication is initially based on studies conducted in fairly healthy people. This is where experience, journal articles about how a drug performs in the field, and clinical judgment come into play, but we still largely adhere to the recommended doses.

Titrating a drug up to these levels can be frustrating for the impatient but it has several important benefits: 1) patient builds up a tolerance to the drug and therefore they can either ride it out through side effects or their body can adapt to them, 2) if the patient reacts adversely, it's at a lower dosage so hopefully the outcome isn't as severe, and 3) you can see how the patient responds to the drug and make sure they're not changing too rapidly or heading in the wrong direction. Plenty of other reasons including maximum drug absorption, half lives, excretion rates, etc.

These are very good questions. It looks like you are taking undergraduate courses right now, as you take biochemistry and learn about pharmacokinetics, some of this will become more clear to you. Likewise I'd encourage you to take a class in basic statistics and study-design because you'll learn about what is required for a drug to go from idea in a lab to a marketed product, how placebo effects are controlled, and what we look for in a study that contributes to the evidence base for medical decision making. If you're planning to go to medical school, you'll learn it all again but these are important principles to begin to understand.
 
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Maybe initially, but they do studies on humans to try to figure out the proper and tolerable doses.
I see.

To expand on the sentence after the one you quoted, it seems that companies do studies of drugs at certain doses, then present their findings in drug applications, and then those are the ones that are available.

But rather than them being guided by finding proper and tolerable doses, couldn't it be that there's another dose that's just as effective or another dose that's effective for a different type of disorder but the company filing the drug application doesn't want to bother with it, thus it's not available in that dose? I assume they would have to prove efficacy for each disorder they claim it treats as well as proof of efficacy at each dose, which might not be cost effective if they can target a large population with a particular dose and other doses would have lower return.

As an example, I take bisoprolol at 1.25 mg. But you can't buy bisoprolol at 1.25 mg in the US (which makes me very grumbly as I have to quarter my pills, which is more than twice as difficult as halving a pill). When you look up the prescribing info for it in the UK, the lowest dose available for some conditions like heart failure is 1.25 mg. The lowest dose in the US is 5 mg, but they don't indicate that it's used for heart failure. I haven't read up on it for a while, but I'm not sure heart failure is an indication for it in the US. In the UK, you can get it at 1.25, 2.5, 3.75, and 5 mg tablets. It's on the WHO Essential Medicines list specifically for heart failure and specifically listed at a 1.25 mg dose. In the US, it's only available at 5 and 10 mg tablets. TEVA owns the company that originally filed the NDA for bisoprolol in the US, and they only ever applied for 5 and 10 mg doses. From what the FDA has told me (after I complained that we don't have a dose that is in line with the WHO recommendations), it seems a company would have to file another application to make it available in a lower dose. I don't know whether it would have to be a NDA or ANDA (all of the ANDAs have been at the same 5 and 10 mg doses). The companies that sell it at 1.25 mg in the UK are the same ones that sell 5 mg tablets in the US. Presumably distribution's not an issue. It seems like the issue is inertia--that it would take some initiative to get lower doses approved, and maybe enough people are satisfied with other solutions that it's not worth it. My doctor originally prescribed the lowest available dose to try for my POTS, but at 5 mg it was a whopper of a dose. 5 mg is half of what the UK considers the maximum dose (in the US the maximum is 20 mg, in the UK I often see it listed as 10 mg). 1.25 mg has plenty of effect on me, though.

I know doctors can consider a patient's specific state and so on, but I think there is some automatization in play. Doctors sometimes say, "Let's start you on the lowest dose and go from there." If the lowest available dose is 1.25 mg vs 5 mg, it makes a big difference. And it seems the assumptions about the potency of bisoprolol vary based on the available strengths. It's a phenomenon that goes beyond scientific study.
 
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