There are too many burnouts in this job

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SurfingDoctor

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Seriously, I'm sure they are all good people, but there are too many burnouts in this profession. They are miserable to be around and the apathy toward patients is just annoying at this point. Figure something else out, because I'm tired of being around people like that and they need to find a different job to get a different disposition in life.

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Have you tried having a group pizza party and meditation/yoga? Expenses paid by you of course, to show everyone you're a team player and that we're all in this together.
 
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This may be just me externalizing my own feelings, but I'm more convinced every day that sustainability in this field is about finding a position where you feel like you have enough time to treat patients AND their families the way you think they should get treated, and still have time to live your life outside of work. I recognize that sounds obvious, and maybe it's just my current position, but since becoming an attending that seems to be an even bigger issue than it was in training. Or maybe it's just that my census is too high and there's too much documentation to deal with. I guess that's part of why I'm all about partial FIRE ASAP, b/c I think if I was doing my current job for 10 years, I'd end up in that group of burnouts.
 
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Seriously, I'm sure they are all good people, but there are too many burnouts in this profession. They are miserable to be around and the apathy toward patients is just annoying at this point. Figure something else out, because I'm tired of being around people like that and they need to find a different job to get a different disposition in life.
There are literally so many burnouts in healthcare (and society in general) that the system would collapse if they all quit and found something else to do.

The only thing that is holding everything precariously in place is if burnt out workers keep dragging themselves to work everyday.
 
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Have you tried having a group pizza party and meditation/yoga? Expenses paid by you of course, to show everyone you're a team player and that we're all in this together.
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I split time in anesthesiology and CCM.

I love it, and (for me at least) it keeps me interested and intellectually occupied. We have a guy that has done straight CCM for 35 years. He’s somewhat, um, less passionate at this point than I am.

I wonder if getting away from ICU for a little while would protect against burn out, or lessen it to a substantial degree.
 
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I split time in anesthesiology and CCM.

I love it, and (for me at least) it keeps me interested and intellectually occupied. We have a guy that has done straight CCM for 35 years. He’s somewhat, um, less passionate at this point than I am.

I wonder if getting away from ICU for a little while would protect against burn out, or lessen it to a substantial degree.

Same though now getting into a community med/Surg unit to decompress some. The CVICU and MCS life was soul crushing at times. Even my OR time wasn’t enough to decompress. I can already tell adding in this mix of ICU work is making a huge difference.
 
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It is a difficult field to practice in. It is hard to be excited about dragging another 2 hour OOH cardiac arrest with cerebral edema and grey white loss through 4+ days of ICU care while the family assures me that Jesus is going to get him out of the bed despite the nonexistent prognosis. Or another heroin addict who has multiple blown valves after having the same thing 7 months ago who left AMA 1 month in to therapy while the family insists that endless resources must be brought to the table to try yet again. Or another alcoholic cirrhotic who comes in intoxicated with a MELD of >9000 bleeding from every orifice encephalopathic who wants me to code and line him. The list goes on--I am essentially just a glorified janitor being forced by law to try to clean up the Deepwater oil spill with a teaspoon and a dish towel.

You call it apathy, I call it learned helplessness. I don't care anymore if these people want me to do pointless procedures to them because in the end they are going to get what they want even if it is futile because American medicine has decided that is what the priority is.

But yea let's get excited about unfixable terminal pathology that I am forced to waste ungodly amounts of resources on because of MURICA.
 
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It is a difficult field to practice in. It is hard to be excited about dragging another 2 hour OOH cardiac arrest with cerebral edema and grey white loss through 4+ days of ICU care while the family assures me that Jesus is going to get him out of the bed despite the nonexistent prognosis. Or another heroin addict who has multiple blown valves after having the same thing 7 months ago who left AMA 1 month in to therapy while the family insists that endless resources must be brought to the table to try yet again. Or another alcoholic cirrhotic who comes in intoxicated with a MELD of >9000 bleeding from every orifice encephalopathic who wants me to code and line him. The list goes on--I am essentially just a glorified janitor being forced by law to try to clean up the Deepwater oil spill with a teaspoon and a dish towel.

You call it apathy, I call it learned helplessness. I don't care anymore if these people want me to do pointless procedures to them because in the end they are going to get what they want even if it is futile because American medicine has decided that is what the priority is.

But yea let's get excited about unfixable terminal pathology that I am forced to waste ungodly amounts of resources on because of MURICA.
Feel your pain, friend
 
It is a difficult field to practice in. It is hard to be excited about dragging another 2 hour OOH cardiac arrest with cerebral edema and grey white loss through 4+ days of ICU care while the family assures me that Jesus is going to get him out of the bed despite the nonexistent prognosis. Or another heroin addict who has multiple blown valves after having the same thing 7 months ago who left AMA 1 month in to therapy while the family insists that endless resources must be brought to the table to try yet again. Or another alcoholic cirrhotic who comes in intoxicated with a MELD of >9000 bleeding from every orifice encephalopathic who wants me to code and line him. The list goes on--I am essentially just a glorified janitor being forced by law to try to clean up the Deepwater oil spill with a teaspoon and a dish towel.

You call it apathy, I call it learned helplessness. I don't care anymore if these people want me to do pointless procedures to them because in the end they are going to get what they want even if it is futile because American medicine has decided that is what the priority is.

But yea let's get excited about unfixable terminal pathology that I am forced to waste ungodly amounts of resources on because of MURICA.
I had to do a double take and make sure I didnt write this.
 
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Hot damn.

What’s the exit strategy to get out of this for those of you that are totally burned out?
 
It is a difficult field to practice in. It is hard to be excited about dragging another 2 hour OOH cardiac arrest with cerebral edema and grey white loss through 4+ days of ICU care while the family assures me that Jesus is going to get him out of the bed despite the nonexistent prognosis. Or another heroin addict who has multiple blown valves after having the same thing 7 months ago who left AMA 1 month in to therapy while the family insists that endless resources must be brought to the table to try yet again. Or another alcoholic cirrhotic who comes in intoxicated with a MELD of >9000 bleeding from every orifice encephalopathic who wants me to code and line him. The list goes on--I am essentially just a glorified janitor being forced by law to try to clean up the Deepwater oil spill with a teaspoon and a dish towel.

You call it apathy, I call it learned helplessness. I don't care anymore if these people want me to do pointless procedures to them because in the end they are going to get what they want even if it is futile because American medicine has decided that is what the priority is.

But yea let's get excited about unfixable terminal pathology that I am forced to waste ungodly amounts of resources on because of MURICA.
Damn straight. OP is complaining about the products of a broken system, when he should be directing his frustration at the system itself.

Grandpa Ezekiel might be more cancer than normal tissue at this point but if his pious son LeBronald insists that he will return on the 3rd day and that I should initiate high quality CPR, I have to assault an old man's body until I can get permission to stop from the Ethics Committee of Righteousness and Justice - please call back between the hours of 9-4 PM on a business day and we will be happy to assist you! I COULD do the right thing and let him pass away with dignity, but I'm offered no protection when Bronny decides to come after me. Or God forbid I provide palliative care like William Husel - I might get put on trial for MURDER. Because THIS IS AMERICA.

The next time I have to code a 99-year-old corpse, I am going to play that song in the room. It's 120 bpm, perfect for CPR!
 
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Damn straight. OP is complaining about the products of a broken system, when he should be directing his frustration at the system itself.

Grandpa Ezekiel might be more cancer than normal tissue at this point but if his pious son LeBronald insists that he will return on the 3rd day and that I should initiate high quality CPR, I have to assault an old man's body until I can get permission to stop from the Ethics Committee of Righteousness and Justice - please call back between the hours of 9-4 PM on a business day and we will be happy to assist you! I COULD do the right thing and let him pass away with dignity, but I'm offered no protection when Bronny decides to come after me. Or God forbid I provide palliative care like William Husel - I might get put on trial for MURDER. Because THIS IS AMERICA.

The next time I have to code a 99-year-old corpse, I am going to play that song in the room. It's 120 bpm, perfect for CPR!
People wonder why I went psych instead of ICU, given my history in respiratory therapy, and this is what it came down to. You can animate meat for months, years even, but at what cost and why? At least doing what I do now I can help with someone's quality of life instead of slowing their circle down the drain
 
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Quality of life is a subjective state of mind and nothing more.

If all I could do was get alcohol infused in my Gtube and watch Star Wars… I’d call my quality of life good.
And that's what psych is about- getting people to live their best lives regardless of the condition of their body or their circumstances
 
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Hot damn.

What’s the exit strategy to get out of this for those of you that are totally burned out?

I'm going to be looking for a more sustainable position, for my needs at least, meaning either part time (like 10-12 shifts/month or the equivalent of ~18 weeks clinical time/year) or a much lower census if it's usual full time 15 shifts/month. I might do that via locums, I might do it by finding a hospital system or group that wants someone as a long-term part timer (I've seen job postings looking for someone to do 7-10 shifts/month), not sure yet, but that's my goal. I'm fine with taking the income hit if it means I can do the job in a way that I'm happy over the long term.
 
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As a consultant who sees these folk, it's no skin off my back. Easy level 5 consult bill every day. ****s paying off my taycan.
 
People wonder why I went psych instead of ICU, given my history in respiratory therapy, and this is what it came down to. You can animate meat for months, years even, but at what cost and why? At least doing what I do now I can help with someone's quality of life instead of slowing their circle down the drain
Because you're smart? One will definitely help more people through the psych route, even if it may take longer.

One can be the hero in the ICU and change outcomes, so what? Usually that doesn't translate into salary, better job, respect in the community etc. And one can't just leave and start one's own practice, if one is really good and fed up with the system.

I've demonstrably changed outcomes in a number of patients, just by stopping/fixing the iatrogenic damage that had been happening to them, by going the extra mile. Nobody really cares, just your own ego. What's that good for? Life is about happy time with family and friends, and time is a finite resource in life. One should be very careful how one sells it. No dying person ever regrets not having worked more.

One's most important job is at home. That's where one wants to arrive still rested and happy.

People who say that medicine is a calling are either naive or don't want to pay well for the privilege of being treated by a good physician.
 
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Money plays a huge part in burnout. I really think there would be more burned out orthopedists, as an example, if they were making 300k instead of 800k. How exciting is doing the same 3 or 4 surgeries over and over and over again.
 
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Because you're smart? One will definitely help more people through the psych route, even if it may take longer.

One can be the hero in the ICU and change outcomes, so what? Usually that doesn't translate into salary, better job, respect in the community etc. And one can't just leave and start one's own practice, if one is really good and fed up with the system.

I've demonstrably changed outcomes in a number of patients, just by stopping/fixing the iatrogenic damage that had been happening to them, by going the extra mile. Nobody really cares, just your own ego. What's that good for? Life is about happy time with family and friends, and time is a finite resource in life. One should be very careful how one sells it. No dying person ever regrets not having worked more.

One's most important job is at home. That's where one wants to arrive still rested and happy.

People who say that medicine is a calling are either naive or don't want to pay well for the privilege of being treated by a good physician.

FFP you back bro? Missed you buddy.
 
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Like that dog with a high WBC count, I hope you are back.

I have rarely interacted with you, but I have appreciated your posts.

Hope you are present in the future.

HH
 
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Money plays a huge part in burnout. I really think there would be more burned out orthopedists, as an example, if they were making 300k instead of 800k. How exciting is doing the same 3 or 4 surgeries over and over and over again.
Not entirely true. I just left a job where I was making close to 700K because I was getting burnt out and wanted part time. But part time entailed only nightshift so I exited stage left. Money isn't everything.
 
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And that's what psych is about- getting people to live their best lives regardless of the condition of their body or their circumstances
Back in med school I made the decision to pursue quality of life over quantity. Kept seeing the futility of "why?" in so many IM, Gen Surg, ICU, etc cases. Thought I had a leg up in going psych to avoid the over medicalization of people/conditions.

Fast-forward now to being the psychiatrist, its not all rosy in this pasture either. So many people/patients barrel down poor life trajectories, or repeating their cycles of self destruction, we got burn out, too. People keep seeing their naturopath, or using cannabis, or sabotaging relationships, or entering the same type of new relationships, etc, etc. The repetitious histories of abuse/trauma.

In summary, Psych is good, in many ways - but isn't the perfect pasture to graze. Just a bit more clover and alfalfa than others.

Good luck all in thwarting burn out.

Bureacracy / admin / excess charting scat / lawyers / insurance companies, etc certainly aren't helping.
 
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It is a difficult field to practice in. It is hard to be excited about dragging another 2 hour OOH cardiac arrest with cerebral edema and grey white loss through 4+ days of ICU care while the family assures me that Jesus is going to get him out of the bed despite the nonexistent prognosis. Or another heroin addict who has multiple blown valves after having the same thing 7 months ago who left AMA 1 month in to therapy while the family insists that endless resources must be brought to the table to try yet again. Or another alcoholic cirrhotic who comes in intoxicated with a MELD of >9000 bleeding from every orifice encephalopathic who wants me to code and line him. The list goes on--I am essentially just a glorified janitor being forced by law to try to clean up the Deepwater oil spill with a teaspoon and a dish towel.

You call it apathy, I call it learned helplessness. I don't care anymore if these people want me to do pointless procedures to them because in the end they are going to get what they want even if it is futile because American medicine has decided that is what the priority is.

But yea let's get excited about unfixable terminal pathology that I am forced to waste ungodly amounts of resources on because of MURICA.
This hits home with me. A Hug from me for what its worth.
 
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I just make sure that housestaff perform the particularly futile procedures (looking at you PEG) so at least someone benefits.
 
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As a lowly hospitalist, I am perplexed by the attraction to CCM... EM also comes to mind. I am sure these docs will probably say the same thing about hospital medicine.
 
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Seriously, I'm sure they are all good people, but there are too many burnouts in this profession. They are miserable to be around and the apathy toward patients is just annoying at this point. Figure something else out, because I'm tired of being around people like that and they need to find a different job to get a different disposition in life.
I’ve decided, the ratio of burnout/moral injury to empathy (ie not sympathy) is inversely proportional. Someone needs a study in that.
 
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Perhaps the eeriest thing about these patients in limbo is that their very voicelessness makes them invisible. Studies on the condition of ICU survivors have identified “post-intensive care syndrome,” which refers to new or worsening physical, mental, and neurocognitive disorders “that negatively affect daily functioning and quality of life in survivors of critical illness.” But the data on PICS exclude these worst-off patients because they cannot participate in testing or give informed consent.

For example, a large study on the incidence of neuropsychological dysfunction in ICU survivors “excluded patients with substantial recent ICU exposure … patients who could not be reliably assessed for delirium … patients for whom follow-up would be difficult … patients for whom informed consent could not be obtained; and patients at high risk for preexisting cognitive deficits owing to neurodegenerative disease, recent cardiac surgery, suspected anoxic brain injury, or severe dementia.” Such exclusions result in an unrealistically rosy picture of the ICU-survivor population, and raise the question of what it means to survive.

Oof, reading between the lines, this person is questioning why provide critical care at all less the outcome is 100% success.
 
So sad to see this. They are miserable, miserable human beings constantly reminding everyone how bad they want to quit but never do. They snap at colleagues, snap at patients. Very draining to interact with them.
 
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This may be just me externalizing my own feelings, but I'm more convinced every day that sustainability in this field is about finding a position where you feel like you have enough time to treat patients AND their families the way you think they should get treated, and still have time to live your life outside of work. I recognize that sounds obvious, and maybe it's just my current position, but since becoming an attending that seems to be an even bigger issue than it was in training. Or maybe it's just that my census is too high and there's too much documentation to deal with. I guess that's part of why I'm all about partial FIRE ASAP, b/c I think if I was doing my current job for 10 years, I'd end up in that group of burnouts.
Fire looks great to me since mid 2020’s
 
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As a lowly hospitalist, I am perplexed by the attraction to CCM... EM also comes to mind. I am sure these docs will probably say the same thing about hospital medicine.
We both get dumped on by every specialty. One as a portapotty the other one as a McDonald’s rest room.
 
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