There are two types of nontrads

[newbsterious]

I've noticed a lot of people these days praising nontrads for adding maturity and wisdom to a medical school class, but I don't think all nontrads are created equally. As a 4th year, I've observed from personal experience that nontrads tend to fall into two broad categories.

Type A) Career-changers, usually no family in medicine, and decided to pursue medicine due to genuine passion. Their road to enter medicine was rocky and difficult, since they had few connections and few sources of trusted advice to guide them through the process. Typically had to work a job while taking medical school prerequisites. Learned things the hard way and take things seriously as a result. Very mature, very sensible people who add wisdom to the class.

Type B) Come from affluent families, typically at least one parent is a doctor. Performed poorly in college due to lack of seriousness. Took 3-4 years between college and medical school, but depended on parents' wealth during this time. May have completed a postbacc or SMP, but this was likely paid for by parents. Utilized family connections heavily to gain extracurricular experience and letters of recommendation, occasionally even interviews and outright acceptance. Often are less mature than traditional applicants due to a very privileged upbringing.

These days I've been seeing more nontrads in a med school class, but a much larger percentage of them seem to be type B rather than type A. The unfortunate thing is that admissions committees will rarely look past surface level to find this out.
We need more type A nontrads, but unfortunately it looks like privileged people just continue to win in all aspects of life. And we end up with mostly type B "nontrads".

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[FalconSlice]

Oh Christmas came early this year. This-gon-be-good.

 

[slowthai]

But those aren't nontrads...those are people that screwed up in undergrad, lol.

 

[newbsterious]

But those aren't nontrads...those are people that screwed up in undergrad, lol.

They still call themselves nontrads and are treated as such.

 

[NITRAS]

Is this another one of those, ”others are evil because they had it easier than me” threads.

When will people realize that life isn’t fair and that no one gives two cents for this type of complaining. Do your work, succeed in life despite your restrictions and move on. Don’t blame others for your failures, and you will succeed more in life.

 

[GoSpursGo]

They still call themselves nontrads and are treated as such.

What does this even mean? It's not like you get a prize for calling yourself a "nontrad." And why does it bother you if someone does?

I mean yeah, people from wealthy backgrounds get privileges that others don't have. It's not fair, but that's the way it's been ever since money. At the end of the day, you're both in med school, and you are now on equal footing. Focus on doing your best and not on what other people are doing.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I've noticed a lot of people these days praising nontrads for adding maturity and wisdom to a medical school class, but I don't think all nontrads are created equally. As a 4th year, I've observed from personal experience that nontrads tend to fall into two broad categories.

Type A) Career-changers, usually no family in medicine, and decided to pursue medicine due to genuine passion. Their road to enter medicine was rocky and difficult, since they had few connections and few sources of trusted advice to guide them through the process. Typically had to work a job while taking medical school prerequisites. Learned things the hard way and take things seriously as a result. Very mature, very sensible people who add wisdom to the class.

Type B) Come from affluent families, typically at least one parent is a doctor. Performed poorly in college due to lack of seriousness. Took 3-4 years between college and medical school, but depended on parents' wealth during this time. May have completed a postbacc or SMP, but this was likely paid for by parents. Utilized family connections heavily to gain extracurricular experience and letters of recommendation, occasionally even interviews and outright acceptance. Often are less mature than traditional applicants due to a very privileged upbringing.

These days I've been seeing more nontrads in a med school class, but a much larger percentage of them seem to be type B rather than type A. The unfortunate thing is that admissions committees will rarely look past surface level to find this out.
We need more type A nontrads, but unfortunately it looks like privileged people just continue to win in all aspects of life. And we end up with mostly type B "nontrads".

Ok. Noted. Try to publish this in the journal of vascular surgery.

 

[altblue]

coming from someone slightly older than the average student who isn't from a privileged background, it's just part of life and something you have to come to terms with. my undergrad was even worse in this regard so it didn't take quite so long to get used to in med school.

try to see people for what they are, like smart, kind etc.... background is only part of a person, and I know some people from wealthy families who are wonderful people, and some who aren't. you can also appreciate the fact that you made it in with fewer resources than the wealthier crowd.

that said, all of this speaks to structural financial and social inequality. if it upsets you, you can always work to change that.

 

[FalconSlice]

OP, I'll help you out here with what I think you meant (and most of us probably agree with):

"Life isn't fair because some people have more privilege than others, and I'm butthurt about that"

(Although I probably wouldn't feel that way if I was in the more privileged group lol. I mean, if my folks were filthy rich, I guarantee, I would be tempted to bum around in undergrad, travel, "discover myself spiritually", and then get my sh** together and apply to med school w/no care in the world)

 

[Dochopeful13]

I've noticed a lot of people these days praising nontrads for adding maturity and wisdom to a medical school class, but I don't think all nontrads are created equally. As a 4th year, I've observed from personal experience that nontrads tend to fall into two broad categories.

Type A) Career-changers, usually no family in medicine, and decided to pursue medicine due to genuine passion. Their road to enter medicine was rocky and difficult, since they had few connections and few sources of trusted advice to guide them through the process. Typically had to work a job while taking medical school prerequisites. Learned things the hard way and take things seriously as a result. Very mature, very sensible people who add wisdom to the class.

Type B) Come from affluent families, typically at least one parent is a doctor. Performed poorly in college due to lack of seriousness. Took 3-4 years between college and medical school, but depended on parents' wealth during this time. May have completed a postbacc or SMP, but this was likely paid for by parents. Utilized family connections heavily to gain extracurricular experience and letters of recommendation, occasionally even interviews and outright acceptance. Often are less mature than traditional applicants due to a very privileged upbringing.

These days I've been seeing more nontrads in a med school class, but a much larger percentage of them seem to be type B rather than type A. The unfortunate thing is that admissions committees will rarely look past surface level to find this out.
We need more type A nontrads, but unfortunately it looks like privileged people just continue to win in all aspects of life. And we end up with mostly type B "nontrads".

Do older non trads get any advantages in admissions?

 

[ACSurgeon]

Also, you know your kids will be “privileged” right?

And finally, who said we need any particular type of candidate? Admission committees often have some hard numerical criteria, some vague touchy feely criteria, and maybe something “to keep things interesting” criteria. I don’t think non-trads automatically get preferred treatment. Either you have an interesting career-switch story, family circumstance, upward trend of your academic performance or something else to catch their attention. I don’t think anyone’s getting preferred treatment just because they were born earlier or wasted a bunch of time since finishing college.

 

[slowthai]

They still call themselves nontrads and are treated as such.

It's just inaccurate. We all know nontrads were traditionally older career changers. Now everyone that takes a gap year calls themselves a nontrad, lol. Treated as such? How? They don't get any special treatment. They have to pay their dues just like everyone else. It may be easier for them to "bounce back" from a poor undergrad performance, but it would've been easier for them regardless, even if they didn't screw up.

 

[altblue]

Do older non trads get any advantages in admissions?

Not just be virtue of being non-traditional. If you've done great things with that extra time, maybe

 

[MavFab]

Med school requires time management skills and hard work. If those "privileged" non-trads continue to try and skate through they will fail out.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Paraphrasing a wamc phone call I had to admissions at my former state MD school:

“Your stats are okay for an in-state applicant. But we’re not exactly falling all over ourselves for non-traditional students. So unless you’ve got something really exceptional in your app, I think your chances are pretty slim.”

So yeah it’s not like being a nontrad actually conveys any type of advantage over other applicants except group B having an advantage over group A. So really, who cares?

 

[FalconSlice]

Paraphrasing a wamc phone call I had to admissions at my former state MD school:

“Your stats are okay for an in-state applicant. But we’re not exactly falling all over ourselves for non-traditional students. So unless you’ve got something really exceptional in your app, I think your chances are pretty slim.”

So yeah it’s not like being a nontrad actually conveys any type of advantage over other applicants except group B having an advantage over group A. So really, who cares?

Let me take this moment to say, I've always loved your picture oh wise Piccolo. Your loyalty to the Saiyan race is admirable

 

[efle]

Always strikes me as weird when people get mad about this stuff. Envious I understand, but not mad. If I had a kid who was still screwing around as an 18-19 year old in college, I'm sure I'd want to use my wealth and connections to rescue their trajectory in life too. It's like getting angry at people who go to Exeter, or follow their legacy parents into an Ivy league, or who just so happen to have faculty parents at their med school.

Hate the game not the players, I'd want all that for my kid too

 

[kkl2018]

I love these "there are two kinds of people" statements. it always comes from a different place than the comparison itself.

coming from a nontrad who falls into neither category lol. i didnt know there was any benefit to the title of nontrad, compared to hard work itself. if anything i feel behind. no one's treated me with more respect

 

[pick6mike]

I fit a good amount of both descriptions, Im pretty much all of A and a good amount of B other than utilizing family connections for jobs (I use it for knowledge) and being immature.

Everyone’s different, but I see where you’re coming from.

 

[Chibucks15]

Someone who did an SMP really isn’t a nontrad from what I’ve kinda been seeing. Especially when it comes to “providing benefit” or whatever you’re talking about. That’s more reserved for people who have actually worked in the real world. You get 0 benefit in anything except academics for an SMP.
But this is a weird premise and I’m sorry some “nontrad” hurt your feelings

 

[NonTrad16]

What they don’t tell you about being non traditional: you don’t even have to study! They just let you hang out at the local country club, bemoan your aging joints, and give you a degree after 4 year. Sucks to be traditional...

Back to this planet:
As a hybrid of Type A and B, I feel compelled to point out I worked to pay for and during my MCAT prep, while fulfilling my prerequisites, and while doing all the stuff that’s expected of traditional students (like volunteering, shadowing, etc). I was told that most people didn’t really care about my employer or experience (in a technical field, where I was contributing, going to conferences, etc). I got letters from random professors who somewhat knew me from a semester because my employer of 5 years wasn’t an academic.

So essentially I felt like it was just traditional requirements with nontraditional baggage (be it good or bad). I definitely didn’t feel like it was a major plus when anyone was looking at my application... I probably cared significantly less about most other people in my class though (except for showing support through the common struggles)

 

[GreenDuck12]

I love that the OP made their account today and this is their first post...

 

[Captain_Falcon]

So just to clarify. As a 4th year medical student (who is about to apply for residencies and has your entire career ahead of ya) is upset that other people sometimes struggle early on in the pre-med process and their well-to-do parents helped them rebound?

I sure hope your kiddos dont ever fail because they'll be quite upset when their parent tells them they arent as good pr deserving as the nontraditional applicant who changes careers

 

[altblue]

So just to clarify. As a 4th year medical student (who is about to apply for residencies and has your entire career ahead of ya) is upset that other people sometimes struggle early on in the pre-med process and their well-to-do parents helped them rebound?

I sure hope your kiddos dont ever fail because they'll be quite upset when their parent tells them they arent as good pr deserving as the nontraditional applicant who changes careers

I mean as much as I feel the OP is too upset over this, it's a false assumption to make that every doctor would drop $60k after their kid spent a number of years sinking their GPA. Not everyone intends to be a doctor-or-bust sort of parent.

 

[Scrubs101]

Your beef is with the system not your peers dog.

If I had the option to travel europe for a year then do an expensive SMP on my parents dime in between undergrad and med school I’d take it in a heartbeat.

 

[newbsterious]

Your beef is with the system not your peers dog.

If I had the option to travel europe for a year then do an expensive SMP on my parents dime in between undergrad and med school I’d take it in a heartbeat.

Nice signature dude, good taste

 

[proudofmykids]

It's just inaccurate. We all know nontrads were traditionally older career changers. Now everyone that takes a gap year calls themselves a nontrad, lol. Treated as such? How? They don't get any special treatment. They have to pay their dues just like everyone else. It may be easier for them to "bounce back" from a poor undergrad performance, but it would've been easier for them regardless, even if they didn't screw up.

Thirty years ago, a non-trad was typically only a couple years out of undergrad. Doing interesting p, novel, rewarding things like hiking the entire Appalachian trail, working on a crab boat in Alaska, olympic bobsled team etc.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

I mean as much as I feel the OP is too upset over this, it's a false assumption to make that every doctor would drop $60k after their kid spent a number of years sinking their GPA. Not everyone intends to be a doctor-or-bust sort of parent.

I'm not making that assumption. The OP is

Come from affluent families, typically at least one parent is a doctor. Performed poorly in college due to lack of seriousness. Took 3-4 years between college and medical school, but depended on parents' wealth during this time. May have completed a postbacc or SMP, but this was likely paid for by parents

 

[altblue]

I'm not making that assumption. The OP is

Ahhhh okay. Sorry for misinterpreting

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

The only value in the "non-trad" title is in connecting with other people who have had similar experiences, imo. There's no specific value in that term as far as admissions goes, it's your specific experiences that will give you a leg up or hold you back.

I have always hesitated to call myself nontrad because while I took two years off and worked full time in a non-medical field, medical school was always the plan. I had all requirements complete by graduation except MCAT, I just wanted to get some life experience first. But I do sometimes have trouble relating to people who took the most traditional, straight-through route. I had an interview at a school that used student interviewers, and the kid I was with was probably one of their youngest M1s (maybe M2?) - no matter how I tried to explain my experiences, he just did not seem to connect with anything I was saying, and that was really frustrating for me. So I have found some common ground with the more typical "non-trads" in my school because of that.

 

[Osteosaur]

I wouldn't call taking a few gap years a non-trad. I mean I worked like 5 years between college and med school and I'm barely a "non-trad".

Most people take a few gap years. It means nothing. Plowing right through from college means nothing. Its a personal choice for manifold reasons.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

I wouldn't call taking a few gap years a non-trad. I mean I worked like 5 years between college and med school and I'm barely a "non-trad".

Most people take a few gap years. It means nothing. Plowing right through from college means nothing. Its a personal choice for manifold reasons.

I think the definition is changing as the average age of matriculation goes up. I remember a few years ago anyone doing anything slower than straight through 4 years college then med school was pretty definitively considered "nontrad". But now I think the average age of matriculation for my school is like 24-25? so about 2 gap years. I'd say 5 years more than qualifies though

 

[readmypostsMD]

Ok. Noted. Try to publish this in the journal of vascular surgery.

just be sure to mention how type B nontrads take bikini pics

 

[Goro]

I've noticed a lot of people these days praising nontrads for adding maturity and wisdom to a medical school class, but I don't think all nontrads are created equally. As a 4th year, I've observed from personal experience that nontrads tend to fall into two broad categories.

Type A) Career-changers, usually no family in medicine, and decided to pursue medicine due to genuine passion. Their road to enter medicine was rocky and difficult, since they had few connections and few sources of trusted advice to guide them through the process. Typically had to work a job while taking medical school prerequisites. Learned things the hard way and take things seriously as a result. Very mature, very sensible people who add wisdom to the class.

Type B) Come from affluent families, typically at least one parent is a doctor. Performed poorly in college due to lack of seriousness. Took 3-4 years between college and medical school, but depended on parents' wealth during this time. May have completed a postbacc or SMP, but this was likely paid for by parents. Utilized family connections heavily to gain extracurricular experience and letters of recommendation, occasionally even interviews and outright acceptance. Often are less mature than traditional applicants due to a very privileged upbringing.

These days I've been seeing more nontrads in a med school class, but a much larger percentage of them seem to be type B rather than type A. The unfortunate thing is that admissions committees will rarely look past surface level to find this out.
We need more type A nontrads, but unfortunately it looks like privileged people just continue to win in all aspects of life. And we end up with mostly type B "nontrads".

I can guarantee you that in my SMP the kids are overwhelmingly NOT doctor's kids. And they also aren't career changers...they were mostly pre-meds but wrecked their GPAs and/or MCATs.

They tend to come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and thus had less resources to prepare them for college or deal with college. Many of them wrecked their GPAs because they had to work while being UG students.

Your post reminds me of my best friend in high school. He always resented (and was jealous of) people whose parents were well to do, and viewed all people's success in that prism.

An aspiring film maker, he thought all the students at USC's film school were "rich producer's sons". Tell that to Steven Speilberg, who was definitel;y NOT in that stereotype.

 

[Goro]

Ok. Noted. Try to publish this in the journal of vascular surgery.

 

[newbsterious]

I can guarantee you that in my SMP the kids are overwhelmingly NOT doctor's kids. And they also aren't career changers...they were mostly pre-meds but wrecked their GPAs and/or MCATs.

They tend to come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and thus had less resources to prepare them for college or deal with college. Many of them wrecked their GPAs because they had to work while being UG students.

The SMP at my school is the same way. But interestingly enough, those kids (who make up the vast majority of the program) are not the ones accepted. Out of the 6 SMP students who were accepted in the last year, two are publicly known to be the children of local physicians.

To make matters worse, the SMP program here is ~50% black/hispanic. Yet each incoming MD class is only ~5-10% black/hispanic.

 

[readmypostsMD]

The SMP at my school is the same way. But interestingly enough, those kids (who make up the vast majority of the program) are not the ones accepted. Out of the 6 SMP students who were accepted in the last year, two are publicly known to be the children of local physicians.

To make matters worse, the SMP program here is ~50% black/hispanic. Yet each incoming MD class is only ~5-10% black/hispanic.

maybe that has to do with mcat scores?

 

[Captain_Falcon]

The SMP at my school is the same way. But interestingly enough, those kids (who make up the vast majority of the program) are not the ones accepted. Out of the 6 SMP students who were accepted in the last year, two are publicly known to be the children of local physicians.

To make matters worse, the SMP program here is ~50% black/hispanic. Yet each incoming MD class is only ~5-10% black/hispanic.

So what are you trying to say?

 

[M&L]

this is definitely a juicy new thread. NO idea how i didnt notice it till today.

i would maybe consider adding one more category:
C) ex-military or other medical professionals. Ex-military because they just had a very different route, especially those who joined right out of high school. Other professions, - nurses, technicians, - dont really fit into A and B, in my opinion.

 

[newbsterious]

this is definitely a juicy new thread. NO idea how i didnt notice it till today.

i would maybe consider adding one more category:
C) ex-military or other medical professionals. Ex-military because they just had a very different route, especially those who joined right out of high school. Other professions, - nurses, technicians, - dont really fit into A and B, in my opinion.

I think they would fit into type A.

 

[M&L]

I think they would fit into type A.

i see your point. very flattering )) (to me, because that means i am an A)

 

[Mass Effect]

They still call themselves nontrads and are treated as such.

They can call themselves the Queen of England. Doesn't make it true.

 

[Mass Effect]

Lots of hate for the OP and I get where it's coming from. Hating on privilege isn't cool either. That said, I think the OP does make a point that's sometimes overlooked. There is a benefit to non-traditional students (I don't consider group B non-trads). Many med students have never worked a day in their life. For some, that's fine. For others, it shows and it's not a good look. My problem with group B is many have never worked a day in their life and at the same time, they also didn't go straight through so WTF did their trajectory get stuck? I'm an attending so no skin off my nose, but I do have to wonder when the application is so important, how are people getting through when they're just bumming around Europe for 3 years? I'll never understand adcoms.

 

[M&L]

Lots of hate for the OP and I get where it's coming from. Hating on privilege isn't cool either. That said, I think the OP does make a point that's sometimes overlooked. There is a benefit to non-traditional students (I don't consider group B non-trads). Many med students have never worked a day in their life. For some, that's fine. For others, it shows and it's not a good look. My problem with group B is many have never worked a day in their life and at the same time, they also didn't go straight through so WTF did their trajectory get stuck? I'm an attending so no skin off my nose, but I do have to wonder when the application is so important, how are people getting through when they're just bumming around Europe for 3 years? I'll never understand adcoms.

so, since you are an attending, let me ask you this: as a non-traditional student who will graduate at 37, how can i market myself better for residency applications? I mean, trying to look younger comes to mind (i hate that it is a factor, but i noticed people treating me better when i lost 20 pounds and started looking like i am in my late 20s vs mid 30s). But is there anything else we can do? i am worried about people not taking me seriously, - "she only has xx amount of years to practice vs someone in the 20s" (is that a thing, btw?).

 

[LunaOri]

I think it would only be an issue if you wanted to go into a field that has long training and short career (like neurosurgery or some of the subspecialties).

 

[Mass Effect]

so, since you are an attending, let me ask you this: as a non-traditional student who will graduate at 37, how can i market myself better for residency applications? I mean, trying to look younger comes to mind (i hate that it is a factor, but i noticed people treating me better when i lost 20 pounds and started looking like i am in my late 20s vs mid 30s). But is there anything else we can do? i am worried about people not taking me seriously, - "she only has xx amount of years to practice vs someone in the 20s" (is that a thing, btw?).

Depends on the field. I'm in psych and we have older residents we love. They're "real adults" if you know what I mean. So in psych, it's welcomed and you don't have anything to worry about. It also helps that psych is a field that a lot of people practice into their 70s without difficulty. If you're going for neurosurgery or some other field with terrible hours and requiring tons of stamina, it may be better to look more youthful and fit. Really there's nothing you can do about your age though. They'll see your DOB on your application. So all you can do is show them you're a young 37 (and 37 IS young, so it shouldn't be hard to do, but there's a difference between a young 37 and an overweight, unfit 37 who gets winded during the hospital tour). Make sense?

 

[M&L]

Depends on the field. I'm in psych and we have older residents we love. They're "real adults" if you know what I mean. So in psych, it's welcomed and you don't have anything to worry about. It also helps that psych is a field that a lot of people practice into their 70s without difficulty. If you're going for neurosurgery or some other field with terrible hours and requiring tons of stamina, it may be better to look more youthful and fit. Really there's nothing you can do about your age though. They'll see your DOB on your application. So all you can do is show them you're a young 37 (and 37 IS young, so it shouldn't be hard to do, but there's a difference between a young 37 and an overweight, unfit 37 who gets winded during the hospital tour). Make sense?

yes, definitely. what you are saying is that if i am fit, young looking 37 year old who looks like i am in my 20s they would be less likely to have subconscious bias against me.

 

[Mass Effect]

yes, definitely. what you are saying is that if i am fit, young looking 37 year old who looks like i am in my 20s they would be less likely to have subconscious bias against me.

Only in certain fields. Other fields don't care.