There Was No Golden Age of Medicine

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maybe the golden age was a myth... but, i was making a lot more money before 2015. and inflation was not near what it is today. There was less Corporatocracy and financialization of every freaking thing. The American dream seemed within reach. Work hard, buy a house, payoff school loans, send my kids to college, retire... These young doctors and kids have it alot tougher than i have had it. and there are so many homeless people nowadays.
 
Well the golden age of anesthesia was between 1975-1990 per a lot of my super old colleagues. Some of whom are dead now

Literally $200 in 1980s money to have someone open their mouth to evaluate a low speed trauma in ER. 3-4 passengers was easy $600-800 reimbursement for anesthesia

Eyes for anesthesia was very lucrative as well

For those who knew how to run the system. 400-500k in 1985 was achievable with no more than 40 hours worked

The running joke in the 1980s was the highest rate of death between ages 30-45 for physician was radiologists and anesthesiologists rushing out the door at 3pm to beat traffic
 
Well the golden age of anesthesia was between 1975-1990 per a lot of my super old colleagues. Some of whom are dead now

Literally $200 in 1980s money to have someone open their mouth to evaluate a low speed trauma in ER. 3-4 passengers was easy $600-800 reimbursement for anesthesia

Eyes for anesthesia was very lucrative as well

For those who knew how to run the system. 400-500k in 1985 was achievable with no more than 40 hours worked

The running joke in the 1980s was the highest rate of death between ages 30-45 for physician was radiologists and anesthesiologists rushing out the door at 3pm to beat traffic
that was before my time (barely).
 
that was before my time (barely).
Yeah. Everyone was switching into anesthesia by 1984/1985 because of impending change in anesthesia residency from a 1 plus 2 to a 1 plus 3 years residency.

Many of the newer kids here didn’t know most programs were not integrated 4 year programs until like 10 plus years ago? It was really a 2 year residency for anesthesiology.

So people who did internal medicine jumped shipped to anesthesiology in 1985 knowing it was gonna to be only 2 years of residency vs 3 years of anesthesiology residency for them.
 
Yeah. Everyone was switching into anesthesia by 1984/1985 because of impending change in anesthesia residency from a 1 plus 2 to a 1 plus 3 years residency.

Many of the newer kids here didn’t know most programs were not integrated 4 year programs until like 10 plus years ago? It was really a 2 year residency for anesthesiology.

So people who did internal medicine jumped shipped to anesthesiology in 1985 knowing it was gonna to be only 2 years of residency vs 3 years of anesthesiology residency for them.
Just missed that cutoff. The CA-3 year used to be a fellowship.
 
This. the lack of respect is what annoys me more than the money.
It will only get worse..... administrators know less about medicine then they ever did, nurses now run hospitals as they push physicians out of positions of influence. Physicians got greedy, lazy and jaded and forgot that they need to be in positions of power to run hospitals... then again did you see the recent posting how a CMO and CFO embezzled 15Mil ? The lack of respect is disgusting, it is up to strong leaders to get that back but everyone is a YES man now or you loose your job in admin....... indeed in the 1990s even it was a different country ..... though lack of respect became much more palpable in the past 10-15 years... again Capitalism did not fail.... Greed did ...
 
everyone is a YES man now or you loose your job in admin.
This is all too often true. Having been an admin for a short while at a troubled hospital, I thought that advocating for patients and healthcare workers was universally the clear right thing to do... but it turns out that if you're in a sketchy place then they want you to maintain the status quo and be a yes man no matter what - doing the "right" thing is often punished. I self ejected from that role due to many of higher ups directly professionally and physically threatening me.

Luckily I moved on to a much better hospital and my current job is 100x better with everyone on the same page for both patients and workers.
 
Yeah. Everyone was switching into anesthesia by 1984/1985 because of impending change in anesthesia residency from a 1 plus 2 to a 1 plus 3 years residency.

Many of the newer kids here didn’t know most programs were not integrated 4 year programs until like 10 plus years ago? It was really a 2 year residency for anesthesiology.

So people who did internal medicine jumped shipped to anesthesiology in 1985 knowing it was gonna to be only 2 years of residency vs 3 years of anesthesiology residency for them.

And those guys are still out there doing everything sans fellowship: peds, cards, etc.
 
And those guys are still out there doing everything sans fellowship: peds, cards, etc.
Absolutely. Got one doc almost 68. Does hearts.

Now they don’t even use ultrasound for their lines. . They do it old fashion style and just as fast or even faster without ultrasound. They also do subclavian old fashion way.

They do everything. Peds also
 
Absolutely. Got one doc almost 68. Does hearts.

Now they don’t even use ultrasound for their lines. . They do it old fashion style and just as fast or even faster without ultrasound. They also do subclavian old fashion way.

They do everything. Peds also
In order to achieve that level of competence without ultrasound you need to see a number of OMGs. Not necessarily your own.
 
He kind of alludes to it at the end, but I think the “golden age” of medicine has a lot more to do with autonomy and independence and less to do with absolute income. It used to be that doctors were essentially business owners and there was some kind of correlation between how hard you worked and your income. I also wonder about income/time versus absolute income. I have a sneaking suspicion that doctors as a whole are working more hours now than they did in the past. There are also all of those uncompensated hours to account for…charting, paperwork, CMEs, phone calls, hospital PowerPoints to click through, meetings, emails, etc. Becoming licensed and maintaining licenses and credentials is probably much more arduous now than it was in the past. How many “golden age” doctors had to make sure they were keeping up with their MOCA minutes? There are a lot of lost hours there that are not compensated in any way.

TL;dr:
Golden Age doctors had:
1.) More autonomy and independence
2.) Probably higher income per unit of time
 
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This is all too often true. Having been an admin for a short while at a troubled hospital, I thought that advocating for patients and healthcare workers was universally the clear right thing to do... but it turns out that if you're in a sketchy place then they want you to maintain the status quo and be a yes man no matter what - doing the "right" thing is often punished. I self ejected from that role due to many of higher ups directly professionally and physically threatening me.

Luckily I moved on to a much better hospital and my current job is 100x better with everyone on the same page for both patients and workers.

Physical threats? Please do expound.
 
I also wonder about income/time versus absolute income. I have a sneaking suspicion that doctors as a whole are working more hours now than they did in the past.
He argues that work is more efficient now in the comments below:

"Are you arguing that radiology was better 20 years ago when you couldn’t do it from home and had far worse tools to work with? Seems a tough argument. You might be reading more studies, but maybe it’s also easier to read more studies no?"

Another commenter:

"The real golden age of medicine is here right now because of all the technological advantages. I do hip & knee replacements. We now do same day surgeries where people used to stay up to 6 weeks in the hospital after a joint replacement. The parts used to wear out in 10-15 years, now it is much more rare to find mechanical failures as the implant technology has improved. I do 4-6 total joint replacements a day 2-3 days a week. A full OR load used to be two joint replacements a week. Our ability to help patients at scale & volume with improved outcomes has dramatically increased in the past few decades. We have never been as useful to humanity and society as we are now as physicians & I believe our pay increases over time reflect that reality. I’m sure if you go field by field you will find the same advances and increased benefit to society.

As long as we avoid regulatory capture by PE, large hospitals, large insurers and federal government health care nationalization then we should continue to be well compensated for our very valuable, ever improving and life changing work."
 
He argues that work is more efficient now in the comments below:



Another commenter:
There was a paper which showed radiology reimbursement was down like 60-70% per study from 20 years ago.

Yeah I can crank 2 ct for the time of 1, but there’s more liability (2vs 1) and far more images today than those 2004 scans had.

Further more, tele has existed since the 1990s so not sure what this guy is going on about “not doing from home”

Before the CMS rule change, all the nighthawk groups had people in Israel and Australia for time zone arbitrage…

If they could read from Israel, I could read from my house (perhaps with 15k upfront cost…)
 
He argues that work is more efficient now in the comments below:



Another commenter:

If our efficiency is that much better, shouldn’t our pay correlate with our increased efficiency? If you don’t want to use units of time as a dependent variable on pay then on a per patient basis, we are being paid a lot less if our efficiency is that much better. I don’t think talking about improvement in treatments and patient outcomes is that related. If it is, then it is really an indictment on our medical system because despite increases in efficiency, improved treatment options, and better patient outcomes, we are still seeing high rates of burnout and dissatisfaction. There’s rot in the system, and I don’t think it only has to do with pay.

I don’t know much about radiology working from home, but that sounds like a mixed blessing to me. I love shoving my phone in a bag the second I walk into my house (when not on call). My home is my sanctuary from work (and the outside world sometimes).
 
I don’t know much about radiology working from home, but that sounds like a mixed blessing to me. I love shoving my phone in a bag the second I walk into my house (when not on call). My home is my sanctuary from work (and the outside world sometimes).
Totally. In anesthesiology the fact that we can be completely off from work when we go home is a major benefit of our field. I feel so sad for the primary care doctors who get forced through patients every 15 minutes and then have to spend hours at home charting ( not to mention making prior authorization and care coordinations calls too).
 
Well the golden age of anesthesia was between 1975-1990 per a lot of my super old colleagues. Some of whom are dead now

Literally $200 in 1980s money to have someone open their mouth to evaluate a low speed trauma in ER. 3-4 passengers was easy $600-800 reimbursement for anesthesia

Eyes for anesthesia was very lucrative as well

For those who knew how to run the system. 400-500k in 1985 was achievable with no more than 40 hours worked

The running joke in the 1980s was the highest rate of death between ages 30-45 for physician was radiologists and anesthesiologists rushing out the door at 3pm to beat traffic
That's a true story for sure.

My friend's Dad was an anesthesiologist in the 80's, nice house, club, cars, lake house etc. Somewhere in the late 00's I mentioned 300-400k seemed roughly the going rate. I said I bet your Dad was pulling that in all the way back in the 80's. He scoffed, "More," as if I was being naive. Take into account 8 digit brownstones in Manhattan were going for a million back then you being to realize they were cleaning up.
 
What in the BeJeezus??? I am sorry. This is insane. From whom??
Someone at the VP level. They had previously threatened and reported sham policy violations against people who didn’t fall in line in the past, and reported sham info to the medical board and NPDB. This was all against people who brought up safety concerns.

I lawyered up immediately and got out before they could screw me over.
 
Someone at the VP level. They had previously threatened and reported sham policy violations against people who didn’t fall in line in the past, and reported sham info to the medical board and NPDB. This was all against people who brought up safety concerns.

I lawyered up immediately and got out before they could screw me over.
OMG. And I thought sociopathic docs was as bad as it got. People threatening death? Wow.
 
As far as golden age in the early90's, I had very senior partners when I went PP who put a ton of money in their pensions. At one time, like late 70's they told me there were no limits on how much you could sock away per year. At that time, our elective OR usually finished by 2 to 5 pm. Most partners home or golfing by then. A large community hospital with about 11,000 cases a yr with 1,200 pumps. We did everything but transplants. Partner salary then was in the 350 to 400k range. The case load and acuity increased considerably. In the early 2000s, I went home one night at midnight and left 5 of my partners behind. With the corporatisation of medicine, we are just the help. Imo, I think the golden age has passed.
 
As far as golden age in the early90's, I had very senior partners when I went PP who put a ton of money in their pensions. At one time, like late 70's they told me there were no limits on how much you could sock away per year. At that time, our elective OR usually finished by 2 to 5 pm. Most partners home or golfing by then. A large community hospital with about 11,000 cases a yr with 1,200 pumps. We did everything but transplants. Partner salary then was in the 350 to 400k range. The case load and acuity increased considerably. In the early 2000s, I went home one night at midnight and left 5 of my partners behind. With the corporatisation of medicine, we are just the help. Imo, I think the golden age has passed.

I sure hope they were making more than 350-400k for those hours
 
I sure hope they were making more than 350-400k for those hours
You probably mis read what he stated. He said the partners went home early and elective surgery ended between 2-5pm

Now the hospital does 11k cases a year and OR run much later.

Correct me if I’m wrong in this interpretation.

Anyways there are a few places in 2024 where they do go down to 1 room by 4/430pm with no ob in today’s market. Rarely operate past 5pm. Very light call backs (less than 10% of the time) after 7pm.

I was just talking to one of docs last month. He’s completely private practice place. Relies on a small subsidy. In Florida. Resort town. On the water. I was just there for Fourth of July.

The issue for them is recruitment. It’s a small beach town community. Their total income (remember no benefits and everything comes out of their own pocket including malpractice) is only 550k with 13 weeks off. Income can vary by 50k depending on work load.

550k 1099 total comp no benefits is closer to working for w2 450-475k at an academic hospital with all their generous perks. If you are married with the way the US tax bracket works for married people. It’s actually better to take the stability of the w2 academic job (35% tax bracket kicks in around 480k AGI) so someone married effective taxes really is only 23% at academic place making less than 525-550k gross income (before deductions) I know my taxes as everyone likes to makes fun of how to talk about my tax strategies.

Anyways. Being “on call” even with light call back takes a burden on you mentally. That’s what we had a talk about a few weeks ago. I told him he needed to go to 5 docs to get 20 weeks off

His job was good 8-9 year ago when competition drove down income. But 550k no benefits and high beeper call burden makes recruitment harder and harder. And it’s not like he’s in the big cities of Tampa or Miami so that makes it even harder to find people. Most of the older docs who want to be there don’t want that high burden of q3 beeper. They work post call also. He doesn’t work physically more than 45 hours a week even working post call. it’s just the availability of being tied for the hospital that gets to you.
 
I also think hourly work similar to ED docs is the way of the future of anesthesiologists.

Work more. Get paid more. Work less get paid less. Work overnight get paid more. Work weekends get paid more.

Hospitals can structure pay scale to reflect these work condition incentives.

Something in 2024 market for bigger cities
$300/hr 7-3 (basically the doc would be as cheap as a crna locums ($200/hr plus 30-40% agency markup)

$330-hr the 3-7p time frame
$375/after 7pm-7am
Weekends would be $400/hr

Get rid of the Middle
Man locums

The goal is to incentivize work. Also protect from gaming the work schedule system (aka. Those who work 24 hours straight really can game the system because they would get more time off in terms of available days off)

Meaning those docs who work (2) days (16/24) have a bigger advantage built in. By going hourly with Uber surge pricing. The day hours are worth less now. There will be fights for the more lucrative night hours for those who want it.
 
I also think hourly work similar to ED docs is the way of the future of anesthesiologists.

Work more. Get paid more. Work less get paid less. Work overnight get paid more. Work weekends get paid more.

Hospitals can structure pay scale to reflect these work condition incentives.

Something in 2024 market for bigger cities
$300/hr 7-3 (basically the doc would be as cheap as a crna locums ($200/hr plus 30-40% agency markup)

$330-hr the 3-7p time frame
$375/after 7pm-7am
Weekends would be $400/hr

Get rid of the Middle
Man locums

The goal is to incentivize work. Also protect from gaming the work schedule system (aka. Those who work 24 hours straight really can game the system because they would get more time off in terms of available days off)

Meaning those docs who work (2) days (16/24) have a bigger advantage built in. By going hourly with Uber surge pricing. The day hours are worth less now. There will be fights for the more lucrative night hours for those who want it.

agree with most of this but im not sure how many would truly pick up those off hour shifts for marginally more money

i think thats how we got to the current system, where the nights/weekends are rolled into a package as mandatory

nowadays more than ever your overnight is likely to be interrupted by ridiculous cases that can go anytime
 
agree with most of this but im not sure how many would truly pick up those off hour shifts for marginally more money

i think thats how we got to the current system, where the nights/weekends are rolled into a package as mandatory

nowadays more than ever your overnight is likely to be interrupted by ridiculous cases that can go anytime
You will always have people wanting to pickup more shifts.

This chief at a locums place I work at. His pool heater just broke. It’s $1200 for the repair. He was suppose to leave early around 11/12p. But decided to work extra to pay for the repairs since he’s on overtime working post.

So there is always a money incentive to work more if you know you will get paid.

That’s where the old salary structure we will pay u $450-550k w2 and be vague in terms of work hours leads to gaming of the system by those in charge. Those who work less or are the weakest will try to game it to work as little as possible and go home early.

Fine boss. You want to leave at 12pm. Go home. Of course they will do counter terror attack to this model and try to stick around and claim they are doing “admin work”. It will always be a cat and mouse game. But at least this method of salary payment makes it way more accountable to hospitals or other entities who are know paying anesthesia bills since the anesthesia billing alone isn’t enough to cover the anesthesia salaries anymore at most places.
 
I sure hope they were making more than 350-400k for those hours
No, not really. At that time, my state ranked 48 out of 50 for anesthesia reimbursement from Medicare. We could have moved to any state touching ours and had a significant salary increase. Wife had to stay near family. Both retired now, so it all worked out I guess.
 
agree with most of this but im not sure how many would truly pick up those off hour shifts for marginally more money

i think thats how we got to the current system, where the nights/weekends are rolled into a package as mandatory

nowadays more than ever your overnight is likely to be interrupted by ridiculous cases that can go anytime

I have been locuming at this one place since January and call for the past six months, could sometimes go most of the night. So they changed the call day from 2pm to 6am to 6pm-6am with 24 hour weekends. Winter call hours were manageable and occasionally long. I came back from vacation and was on call in July about half the time up there during a 12 day stint including a 24 hour Sunday. Each and every night of call night I worked 6 hours plus. First week I had 29 hours of OT, and second week had about 24 hours not including a weekend. I mean it just kept going and going and going.

I am getting too old for this. The money is great but this is ridiculous for a 100 bed hospital. And they want us, the anesthesia docs to push back against these surgeons who are lining up questionable emergency cases at all the off hours. Because admin is bleeding money. lol. I am a traveler. I am not gonna fight your surgeons. You guys have been letting them get away with BS emergency cases for decades and now you want travelers to help you?? They have less than half the anesthesiolgists they need so lots of locums.
 
No, not really. At that time, my state ranked 48 out of 50 for anesthesia reimbursement from Medicare. We could have moved to any state touching ours and had a significant salary increase. Wife had to stay near family. Both retired now, so it all worked out I guess.
Umm. He was talking about earning 400k in the EARLY 90’s. That translates to 1M or more given inflation….
 
Umm. He was talking about earning 400k in the EARLY 90’s. That translates to 1M or more given inflation….
Correct. It’s crazy. Salaries are only catching up in 2024 affer the disastrous 2011-2020 era in most places.

I was making 500k/10 weeks off 1099 guaranteed 40 hour surgery center job 2007/2008.

Was asked to take a 100k pay cut by 2011 and vacation cut to 7 weeks.

So 400k in late 1980s is like 1 million today working 40 hours a week back than.

Locums is around 700k 40 hours a week no calls in 2024 assuming 42 weeks worked
 
I commend WCI guy for presenting a data driven case for his argument, but I’m skeptical. From the top comment on his article, “In my community a large house on the lake just sold for way more than I could ever afford as an anesthesiologist, but it had been owned by a family physician for decades.” Maybe it’s confirmation bias, but this is a widespread phenomenon in my experience.

After adjusting for inflation, real estate often costs 2-3x as much as it did in 1985. However, this doesn’t fully explain why fewer of the most expensive homes in any given community seem to be owned by doctors nowadays. Even if we make the same amount of money, it’s not going as far. We‘ve been pushed down the economic hierarchy.
 
I commend WCI guy for presenting a data driven case for his argument, but I’m skeptical. From the top comment on his article, “In my community a large house on the lake just sold for way more than I could ever afford as an anesthesiologist, but it had been owned by a family physician for decades.” Maybe it’s confirmation bias, but this is a widespread phenomenon in my experience.

After adjusting for inflation, real estate often costs 2-3x as much as it did in 1985. However, this doesn’t fully explain why fewer of the most expensive homes in any given community seem to be owned by doctors nowadays. Even if we make the same amount of money, it’s not going as far. We‘ve been pushed down the economic hierarchy.
There's a difference in mindset of the average physician now. Biggest example I can think of is the desire to not work until age 65.

If you're a family physician who owns a practice, probably putting in 55-60 hours a week all told and taking 2-3 weeks off for the year, then you would expect your inflation adjusted income to be way higher than an employed family doc with 6 weeks off working 40 hours a week of pure patient care/charting.

Add in the idea that the family physician now wants to only work until age 55, whereas the older family physician looked at retirement before age 65 as a death sentence or a huge identity crisis.

If any anesthesiologist was to work full time until age 65, then the calculus on saving and spending changes dramatically compared to someone who wants to only go until age 55, which is most people in the field now in my experience. I could probably afford 2-3x as much house if I was gung ho on working 45 hours+ until 65
 
There's a difference in mindset of the average physician now. Biggest example I can think of is the desire to not work until age 65.

If you're a family physician who owns a practice, probably putting in 55-60 hours a week all told and taking 2-3 weeks off for the year, then you would expect your inflation adjusted income to be way higher than an employed family doc with 6 weeks off working 40 hours a week of pure patient care/charting.

Add in the idea that the family physician now wants to only work until age 55, whereas the older family physician looked at retirement before age 65 as a death sentence or a huge identity crisis.

If any anesthesiologist was to work full time until age 65, then the calculus on saving and spending changes dramatically compared to someone who wants to only go until age 55, which is most people in the field now in my experience. I could probably afford 2-3x as much house if I was gung ho on working 45 hours+ until 65
That’s a good point. I still think in certain specialities, docs in the 80s and 90s could make really good money. But like you said, some those docs were the parents of my friends in high school, and they were not on any early retirement track, wouldn’t surprise me if some of them are still working!
 


“This is your good old days. It only gets worse from here on. The good old days are these. Wait til you see what happens as you get old.”


TL;DW: Already rich doctor with no kids and family to support develops a vision problem and retires on a full disability policy that allows him live in one of the most expensive areas of the country and rollerblade all day. He’s probably richer than most working physicians, but makes claims that he’s found the meaning of life. 🙄
 
TL;DW: Already rich doctor with no kids and family to support develops a vision problem and retires on a full disability policy that allows him live in one of the most expensive areas of the country and rollerblade all day. He’s probably richer than most working physicians, but makes claims that he’s found the meaning of life. 🙄
All true, he’s in a lucky spot, but he makes the most of it. He said it himself, I just want to die not being an a$&hole. Pretty reasonable.
 
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