Think long and hard before you apply

[GoCubsGo20]

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By no means is this a woe is me post. I am beyond thankful for the opportunities I experience everyday in medical school. And at the end of it all, I think I'll really enjoy my career and life after school/residency. But, the in-between, medical school, has been brutal and I'm not sure I'd repeat had I been presented the opportunity. And, maybe my experiences are unique to my school, but I'm not convinced so.

First off, medical school, in general, is a fairly toxic environment. No matter what schools say during interview and second look days, there will be toxic students who don't want you to succeed and hope for your failure. There will be staff that treat you like butt for no reason. Some residents will look down at you and not respect you. Now, that doesn't mean you can't make it through and become a great doctor. But, think long and hard about your life and what you want out of it. Consider how you'll feel over those 7+ years. Most of the time, unfortunately, you'll feel horribly inadequate and disrespected.

You will work long hours and you will sit in the hospital twiddling your thumbs waiting to be told to do something. Somedays I sat for hours trying to study in a busy room with nothing else to do, even after I asked the residents 4 times. It can get horribly tedious.

You'll show up to a new place monthly, weekly, hell sometimes daily, with no real guidance on what to do, but expected to know the workflow. Some staff and residents are better than others at integrating you, but some will ignore you all day.

You'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. This sucks and there's nothing more that needs to be said.

You will have to miss out on life events. You'll be expected to place some things on hold. I've been told getting married during medical school was a bad idea by staff, that getting a dog was a bad idea and that I am living above my means. I've been advised by many staff and residents to forgo having children during school and put it on the back burner. To some, that's okay, and that's great. But, to others, that sucks.

So, if there is anything else in this world you may be interested in pursuing a career in, explore that first and rule it out. Don't fall in love with the idea of being a doctor and forget about the rest of your life. Don't fall in love with the idea of being accepted to medical school. With that acceptance comes at least 7 years of no control over your life. I'm halfway through, but I wish I could go back in time and tell myself this. I'm not sure I'd change my career trajectory, but I'd sure give the other options a bit more attention.

Best of luck to you all.

 

[sparkysparkyboomman]

I agree with (most) of this post.


BUT I will say my class is not toxic in the slightest. I can't speak for the residents I will encounter in the future, however. I'm sure I'll come across some less than pleasant ones.


I think this post is a good wake-up call to pre-meds. It's a long journey.

 

[MyOdyssey]

By no means is this a woe is me post. I am beyond thankful for the opportunities I experience everyday in medical school. And at the end of it all, I think I'll really enjoy my career and life after school/residency. But, the in-between, medical school, has been brutal and I'm not sure I'd repeat had I been presented the opportunity. And, maybe my experiences are unique to my school, but I'm not convinced so.

First off, medical school, in general, is a fairly toxic environment. No matter what schools say during interview and second look days, there will be toxic students who don't want you to succeed and hope for your failure. There will be staff that treat you like butt for no reason. Some residents will look down at you and not respect you. Now, that doesn't mean you can't make it through and become a great doctor. But, think long and hard about your life and what you want out of it. Consider how you'll feel over those 7+ years. Most of the time, unfortunately, you'll feel horribly inadequate and disrespected.

You will work long hours and you will sit in the hospital twiddling your thumbs waiting to be told to do something. Somedays I sat for hours trying to study in a busy room with nothing else to do, even after I asked the residents 4 times. It can get horribly tedious.

You'll show up to a new place monthly, weekly, hell sometimes daily, with no real guidance on what to do, but expected to know the workflow. Some staff and residents are better than others at integrating you, but some will ignore you all day.

You'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. This sucks and there's nothing more that needs to be said.

You will have to miss out on life events. You'll be expected to place some things on hold. I've been told getting married during medical school was a bad idea by staff, that getting a dog was a bad idea and that I am living above my means. I've been advised by many staff and residents to forgo having children during school and put it on the back burner. To some, that's okay, and that's great. But, to others, that sucks.

So, if there is anything else in this world you may be interested in pursuing a career in, explore that first and rule it out. Don't fall in love with the idea of being a doctor and forget about the rest of your life. Don't fall in love with the idea of being accepted to medical school. With that acceptance comes at least 7 years of no control over your life. I'm halfway through, but I wish I could go back in time and tell myself this. I'm not sure I'd change my career trajectory, but I'd sure give the other options a bit more attention.

Best of luck to you all.

To put things in better perspective, what type of residency are you pursuing and what type of medical school did you attend (one of the super competitive ones to get in, a state flagship, DO/MD?)?

 

[Moko]

To put things in better perspective, what type of residency are you pursuing and what type of medical school did you attend (one of the super competitive ones to get in, a state flagship, DO/MD?)?

The 'top' programs do not have a monopoly of *ssholes. You will find toxic people at any school or residency.

 

[deleted998607]

BUT I will say my class is not toxic in the slightest

Whenever someone says this, I can't help but think that they are part of the 'toxic' group and are unable to see outside of themselves. At my school, the toxic group(s) tend to hang out in cliques, and whenever they are asked to speak about the environment, they always respond with something "peachy" that makes some people's eyes roll. These also tend to be the people who can't engage in a conversation without bragging or mentioning medicine in some way/shape/form.

I believe you, I have to, or else life looks pretty dim lol. But at the end of the day, toxic environments exist everywhere in life. You cannot always control your environment, but you can control how you react to and interpret your environment, as well as how long you engage in your immediate environment. That's why I think the best thing any medical student can do is maintain a healthy lifestyle that also includes people OUTSIDE of medical school and the hospital. And if it's hard for you to do that, find a couple of people at your school who you relate with on a deep level (this is critically important).

Note: not giving you advice, just the general reader.

 

[deleted804295]

Welcome to the real world. Every profession has its drawbacks.

 

[Goro]

Welcome to the real world. Every profession has its drawbacks.

Believe me, I have seen Deans who seem to think it's their life's mission to make life a living hell for the Faculty, and my students too.

 

[star-lily]

The 'top' programs do not have a monopoly of *ssholes. You will find toxic people at any school or residency.

I don't know the truth of the statement, but I have also heard at least a few times that actually quite a few of the "top programs" can have *fewer* of those types, in part due to true unranked P/F etc. But of course we shouldn't expect even one single place to be free of toxicity

 

[star-lily]

Welcome to the real world. Every profession has its drawbacks.

Yep, U.S. on average is not known for great workplace culture.

 

[sparkysparkyboomman]

I understand what you’re saying.


But in a class of less than 40, I can genuinely say I’ve interacted with and studied with each person. I’m not claiming to be in a perfect class nor school just disclosing my own experiences.


Oh and I highly agree with finding people outside of your bubble. It’s not healthy to stick to one social group 24/7.

 

[deleted966837]

@GoCubsGo20, in your experience, how many hours do you / your classmates work per week?

 

[GoCubsGo20]

To put things in better perspective, what type of residency are you pursuing and what type of medical school did you attend (one of the super competitive ones to get in, a state flagship, DO/MD?)?

Pursuing peds. My 6 weeks on peds was great, some of the most welcoming staff and residents in the hospital.

Large midwest state school. Top 20 for some stuff. It's a hotbed for OOS applicants. MD.

 

[GoCubsGo20]

@GoCubsGo20, in your experience, how many hours do you / your classmates work per week?

Work is relative, imo. I'm at the hospital at least 50 hours. But the work doesn't end there.

 

[GoCubsGo20]

I agree with (most) of this post.


BUT I will say my class is not toxic in the slightest. I can't speak for the residents I will encounter in the future, however. I'm sure I'll come across some less than pleasant ones.


I think this post is a good wake-up call to pre-meds. It's a long journey.

That was it's purpose. I got lost in the hype of getting in, then was hit with a ton of bricks once the real stuff started. I'd hate to see more people in my same situation 3 years in. Avoid it if possible.

 

[993444]

I think that stress tends to bring out the dark side of people. Which is why so many people claim that medical environments have toxic work cultures.

 

[ciestar]

I think that stress tends to bring out the dark side of people. Which is why so many people claim that medical environments have toxic work cultures.

I very much agree with this.
Im burning out now and not at a good time

 

[993444]

I very much agree with this.
Im burning out now and not at a good time

Is applying for residency more stressful than med school?

 

[ciestar]

Is applying for residency more stressful than med school?

It isn’t even comparable.

 

[993444]

It isn’t even comparable.

But doesn't it at least give you solace that the chances of not getting residency (assuming you have done well on boards and have adequate grades) are very slim compared to the dart game that is medical school admissions?

 

[ciestar]

But doesn't it at least give you solace that the chances of not getting residency (assuming you have done well on boards and have adequate grades) are very slim compared to the dart game that is medical school admissions?

Nope. I didnt have 400k invested while applying to med school. I have a lot more at stake.

And i did poorly on step 1 lol

 

[GoCubsGo20]

I think that stress tends to bring out the dark side of people. Which is why so many people claim that medical environments have toxic work cultures.

Stress definitely plays a major role. But, take away students and residents, and medicine is still toxic. The relationship between nurses and doctors, while being so important, is often one of the most toxic relationship in the hospital.

I’m married to a nurse. I hear the things doctors say to them. And I’ve heard the things nurses do to make doctor’s lives tougher. What kind of work environment is that? A ****e one.

 

[993444]

Stress definitely plays a major role. But, take away students and residents, and medicine is still toxic. The relationship between nurses and doctors, while being so important, is often one of the most toxic relationship in the hospital.

I’m married to a nurse. I hear the things doctors say to them. And I’ve heard the things nurses do to make doctor’s lives tougher. What kind of work environment is that? A ****e one.

I feel like being nice to nurses is the best thing a physician can do to make their lives easier.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’m married to a nurse. I hear the things doctors say to them. And I’ve heard the things nurses do to make doctor’s lives tougher. What kind of work environment is that? A ****e one.

I’m married to a nurse and I was an OR tech for a decade. It isn’t like that everywhere. Both hospitals I worked at and the department where my wife worked, there was a great relationship between the nurses and doctors. I can count on one hand the number of toxic people.

I won’t comment on med school cause I’ve only been an MS1 for a month lol.

 

[deleted804295]

Stress definitely plays a major role. But, take away students and residents, and medicine is still toxic. The relationship between nurses and doctors, while being so important, is often one of the most toxic relationship in the hospital.

I’m married to a nurse. I hear the things doctors say to them. And I’ve heard the things nurses do to make doctor’s lives tougher. What kind of work environment is that? A ****e one.

At the academic hospital I volunteer at, I've never seen doctors being mean to nurses or vice versa.

I have had nurses be rude to me however and I just switched units to be with nice folk.

 

[FutureSurgical]

Every profession is going to have it's fair share of toxicity within the culture, the employees, etc. Hell, I keep seeing people say "go into Investment Banking if you wanna make a ton of money without the long hours." That's a bold-faced lie. I know plenty of people who went into IB and slaved for 80-90 hours each week to make a little more than residents make, in pursuit to make partner/promotion.

I know this doesn't mean it's everywhere; I'm pretty sure people struck gold and make >6 figures out of college. But if you wanna make a ****-ton of money, you're gonna have to sacrifice something along the way. No matter what field you get into, either within healthcare or not, you'll be expected to put in longer hours, deal with more stress, and take on a lot of responsibilities to make good money. That's just how it works for 97% of us.

I'm sorry you're burning out OP. I've been there this year with studying for the MCAT and working FT 50 hours or so per week. I hope you come out of this crap happy with your decision to pursue medicine.

 

[993444]

Are work cultures different between academic hospitals, community hospitals, private clinics, etc?

 

[GoCubsGo20]

I will say that this also is not the case everywhere. I went to med school at a large academic center - some of the nurses were just plain rude, especially to med students. I'm now at a regional community hospital for residency and the relationship between the nurses and doctors, residents included, is fantastic. They make my life SO much easier. They are supportive, do tangibly helpful things like track down outside hospital paperwork, are patient with me if I don't know the answer to a question right away, etc. Even the inpatient peds and OB nurses are wonderful and have been incredibly helpful to me as an intern as I'm learning new skills and procedures. I have not had a bad experience with a single one of the dozens of nurses I've worked with, from the med-surg floors to the peds unit to the ICU to L&D.

My med school classmates were also not toxic at all. There were a handful of people who would sometimes cluelessly do something that negatively affected a classmate but I don't think it was ever done with the desire for someone else to fail. (and no, I don't think I was part of a "toxic group" - I regularly shared my hand-made study guides, shared procedures/patients fairly with classmates, got nominated by my classmates for some recognitions for being a nice person/professional, etc.). And my grades were nowhere near good enough to be considered a gunner lol.

ETA: And yes, you should ABSOLUTELY think long and hard before applying to med school - even with good people around you it's still an incredibly difficult and stressful path. Yes, you'll work long hours and spend a lot of time having no clue what to do. Yes, sometimes residents and attendings will be too busy for you. Yes, you'll miss out on life events and go into a large amount of debt. And yes, you should absolutely consider any other career option that would be as fulfilling to you. But there are places out there that are intentional about fostering a supportive learning environment if you look for them.

I look forward to a nice, cohesive work environment. Thanks for sharing.

 

[GoCubsGo20]

At the academic hospital I volunteer at, I've never seen doctors being mean to nurses or vice versa.

I have had nurses be rude to me however and I just switched units to be with nice folk.

Volunteering and taking care of patients are two very different things. I hope you don't experience it, but it happens.

 

[GoCubsGo20]

I’m married to a nurse and I was an OR tech for a decade. It isn’t like that everywhere. Both hospitals I worked at and the department where my wife worked, there was a great relationship between the nurses and doctors. I can count on one hand the number of toxic people.

I won’t comment on med school cause I’ve only been an MS1 for a month lol.

That's reassuring. It makes me happy to read that so many people have experienced different environments than mine.

 

[Dave1980]

Med school and residency is hard work and is also very hierarchical. In general I don't think it's toxic and everyone is just trying to do their job in a stressful environment but you can't be a special snowflake.

 

[GoCubsGo20]

Med school and residency is hard work and is also very hierarchical. In general I don't think it's toxic and everyone is just trying to do their job in a stressful environment but you can't be a special snowflake.

I think being a snowflake and wanting to be treated properly are two different things. But, to each their own.