Thinking about switching schools/programs. Advice?

[Member012345678]

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I am currently in a Master's program in counseling psychology and I have been thinking about applying for a different Master's program in clinical psychology in a different state. My current program is very good, however they distinctly have a practitioner-scholar model of training. The school I want to apply to has a scientist-practitioner model of training. The reason for my desire to change programs is a matter of fit, as I feel I would do better in a more scientifically-oriented program...I believe it will meet my needs better. I did not think this would be a problem for me, but I think I was mistaken. I anticipate applying to doctoral programs in either clinical psych or counseling psych after my Master's degree.

My questions are these: If I switch schools/programs and then apply to doctoral programs when I am done, will the fact that I switched programs be looked upon negatively? In other words, will the fact that I switched programs/schools hurt my chances of acceptance for doctoral programs? My grades in my current program are perfect, and I am in good academic standing, so potential doctoral programs will see that my school/program switch for my Master's degree was not due to academic problems or poor performance. Any thoughts or advice?

 

[Member012345678]

I am currently in a Master's program in counseling psychology and I have been thinking about applying for a different Master's program in clinical psychology in a different state. My current program is very good, however they distinctly have a practitioner-scholar model of training. The school I want to apply to has a scientist-practitioner model of training. The reason for my desire to change programs is a matter of fit, as I feel I would do better in a more scientifically-oriented program...I believe it will meet my needs better. I did not think this would be a problem for me, but I think I was mistaken. I anticipate applying to doctoral programs in either clinical psych or counseling psych after my Master's degree.

My questions are these: If I switch schools/programs and then apply to doctoral programs when I am done, will the fact that I switched programs be looked upon negatively? In other words, will the fact that I switched programs/schools hurt my chances of acceptance for doctoral programs? My grades in my current program are perfect, and I am in good academic standing, so potential doctoral programs will see that my school/program switch for my Master's degree was not due to academic problems or poor performance. Any thoughts or advice?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod note: These two threads have been merged and now reside only in the Ph.D./Psy.D. forum.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I honestly know very little about master's programs. However, the major questions I would consider would be:

1. Would any of your previous master's work transfer to your new master's? Little transfers between doctoral programs, but IDK if that is true at the master's level.

2. Is there any way to gain the research experience you need to apply to a doctoral program within your current program (even if you have to be a little creative and aggressive)?

3. Have people from your master's program gone on to PhD programs in the past?

Good luck,
Dr. E

 

[neuronic]

Hmm. How long do you have left in your current program? If you leave now, you will have nothing to show for your time and money, though will have transcripts showing great grades. If you transfer, that will set you back more time, and money (school costs but also moving costs if you are in a different state). Those are obvious cons, but personal enjoyment is a huge plus. However, a program may seem great, as your current one did to you now, but may not be once you get there, as it sounds like happened. Regardless, it sounds like based on your description of your program and your grades, you would likely be a strong candidate for a doctoral program, of course dependent on GRE, etc, if you finished up and didn't transfer.

 

[kyril]

if your program is other wise good, i think you can make a string case when applying to more researchy PhD programs as to why you want to go to a more research -oriented program. You had practitioner scholar training and xyz occurred that lead you to feel such and such about scientist-practitioner training and maybe even how science/research wil be part of your career. many folks go to scientist-practitioner programs and do clinical work and fall in love and end up not ging the academic route, if you;ve done the practitioner thing and feel in love with science, i think scientist-practitioner will love that.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

The main hurdle you would have to overcome in your future applications (both to a new master's program, as well as a future doctorate program) would be why you went into a practitioner-scholar program knowing that you had a preference for the scientist-practitioner model. They may ask themselves (and possibly you): "why did this person not research the first program more?" or "will they do something similar to us?".I don't know directly know anyone who has done this, so this might not be the case at all, but it is something worth considering. Could you possibly stay in your current program and find a research gig on the side?

 

[Psychadelic2012]

The main hurdle you would have to overcome in your future applications (both to a new master's program, as well as a future doctorate program) would be why you went into a practitioner-scholar program knowing that you had a preference for the scientist-practitioner model. They may ask themselves (and possibly you): "why did this person not research the first program more?" or "will they do something similar to us?".I don't know directly know anyone who has done this, so this might not be the case at all, but it is something worth considering. Could you possibly stay in your current program and find a research gig on the side?

I agree with all of this (especially the bolded). There is nothing wrong, necessarily, with finishing the current program, but I did something similar (although it was more research focused than most) and found myself to be branded a practice-focused applicant. I found volunteer research opportunities, as LOL suggested, but I don't even think that was enough. Not sure why--I think it was the preference for non-master's-degreed students, coupled with my significantly older age, non-psych BA, and less-than-stellar GRE scores. I did end up in a fully-funded scientist-prac program, but with other students who are explicitly practice-focused (incl. with MAs) and have little research experience. So, it's a tough one. Realistically, you'll probably want to look at balanced (practice-research) or practice-focused doctoral programs if you stay where you are, and maybe also if you transfer, not the hard-core research programs. They don't like people who practice and/or people with master's degrees. Just my experience. If that works for you, you'll be fine.

 

[Member012345678]

Thanks for all of the responses! All of these insights and ideas will be taken into consideration. I appreciate any help I can get 🙂

I'm only one semester into my program. The scientist-practitioner program I want to apply to won't accept a transfer of credits, so it will be like starting over. This is fine, though. And cost is not an issue. Again, my main concern is if it will look terrible later to doc programs that I transferred schools mid-Master's.

I can certainly conduct research in this program--they actually require a Master's thesis (I also have several peer-reviewed publications under my belt, so I have that going for me). Graduates from my current program sometimes do go to other doc programs. Again, the issue is the model of training in relation to my personal view of the field of psychology. I often feel as if I am in a humanities program rather than a program centered around science and research; I was expecting the latter, as it is a PSYCHOLOGY program (and my undergrad program was very science oriented), not solely a counseling program.

There are several reasons why I chose the school I did even though it is a practitioner-scholar model--I chose it chose it because, like Psychcyclepsi, I did not think the differences between models was as pronounced as I have found them to be. Additionally, it's not that I chose it knowing good and well that I preferred a S-P model. I didn't know, which is why I chose where I did for my Master's. My undergrad school was a S-P model, and although I was not anticipating as big a difference between models as I've experienced, I wanted to utilize my new experiences with a P-S in this Master's program along w/ my S-P exposure at my undergrad university to better inform the type of doc programs I would later apply to....I did not want what has happened to me here to occur in a doc program. Does that make sense?

Additionally, I neglected to mention (because this is certainly a reason much less important to me than the training model issue) that I absolutely hate the state/city I am living in. The school I want to switch to is in a state/city much more conducive to my happiness. Given this, I figure that if I were to get accepted to this other school and it turned out to be not what I wanted either, I would not be in a worse position I'm in now and I would at least be at a location I love 🙂

Anyway, I hope these answers and elaborations help steer the discussion further. Any more ideas or insights about if it will be a big black mark against me if I switch Master's programs?
Thanks again!

 

[Doctor Eliza]

If you have publications at this early stage of the game, what made you decide to do a master's prior to the PhD? IDK if this ever happens, but would it be possible to apply to PhD programs w/o finishing the master's? Although, it is nearly December, so I guess that wouldn't work for you this year even if that were possible.

Also, sorry for the dumb question, will your program take 2 yrs or 3 yrs?

Best,
Dr. E

 

[Member012345678]

Doctor Eliza (and others)
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you 🙂

My publications got accepted very recently, AFTER application deadlines. Additionally, I chose applying to a terminal Master's degree for several other reasons. For a long time, I was certain I wanted to apply to doc programs in clinical or counseling psych with the intention of pursuing primarily a research/academic route in life, but about a yr before applications were due I started second-guessing my plan. Did I want to spend 5-7 yrs in a doc program? Did I really want to pursue a research/academic route? I have been very good at my work at psych facilities, and I have a lot of personal attributes that would be well-suited for being a therapist. I did not want to get accepted into a doc program and have what is happening to me now happen there.

After giving it substantial thought, I talked to my undergrad research advisers about my uncertainty, and we decided that a good route may be to get a Master's degree in either clinical or counseling psych. I applied to both S-P and P-S programs. Aside from having faculty in the program with similar academic interests as mine, the only other criteria were that the program allow for a Master's thesis (in case I decided on doc programs later), and that it led to licensure (in case I did not want any more school). I reasoned that programs with this combo would expose me to both research and practice on a grad level, and that this would help inform my decisions for after completing a Master's.

It is not that my program is a sham or that they completely ignore science. It is that I do not think this program is as good a fit for me as I thought it would be. I have come to understand that I value the "think like a scientist" mentality at my undergrad university, and it has become apparent that my current program does not value this as much as I had hoped. Several of my professors here have criticized me for suggesting that empirically-validated treatments are a standard that our field should strive for, and my peers have done the same; in our cohort, I have gained a reputation for being "the research one" in our group (I mean, shouldn't we ALL be research people in a psychology graduate program?). Furthermore, a few of my peers have accused me of cynicism, which I am very shocked by....scientific thinking and skepticism are not the same thing as cynicism. I just feel fairly out of place in this program. And it doesn't help that my partner and I both hate living here....it is taking a huge toll on my partner and our relationship. At the school I want to switch to, my partner has lots of family living right in the neighborhood of that campus. Like I said, my thoughts are that even if the program I switch to is not what I expected, I will not be in any worse position as I am now, and at least my partner and I will be happy at the location. The primary consideration is if doc programs I may apply to in the future will look down heavily upon this decision. I feel that my reasons for changing schools, which I have laid out in this post, are reasonable and well-thought out, and are primarily based in the value I place on my training; I would hope that upon hearing my reasoning, most doc programs would see my point. Whether this is how they'll really function or not, however, is an entirely different story.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I'm not sure if switching would be a good or bad thing--no experience there. BUT, honestly, I wonder if staying in your current program would hurt you even more in the future when applying for research-focused programs? In that way, it may actually help you a great deal to show a pattern of wanting to be more scientifically-oriented, rather than practice-oriented. It's a tough call. I don't have an answer for you, just wanted to reiterate the point about admissions committees' views of why you pursued whichever master's degree you end up finishing--your path could be frowned upon by any number of people, depending on your path, or could be seen as legitimate exploration to build experiences by others. I think following what you want to do, with some reasonable steps to ensure that you don't get stuck (i.e., a licensable masters) sounds logical.

Also, I would be interested to see what would happen if you did apply to doc programs right now. It seems worth a shot.

 

[ResearchGirlie]

It really is a tough call. Doctoral programs could very likely question your dedication if you've had past experiences of quitting/transferring previous graduate programs. However, and this is a big however, your reason for leaving is what PhD programs want to hear. If you can get across the message that you are a dedicated, intelligent student who realized that science is crucial to the field of clinical psychology then PhD programs will likely respect that decision.

I think it's more of a gamble to leave, especially if you can participate in research at your current institution, but I think given your reasons for wanting to switch you aren't necessarily putting yourself in an impossible situation. I am curious if you've thought about applying to PhD programs now rather than getting a master's? On the one hand, getting a master's will help show your dedication. On the other hand, it's a lot of time and money wasted if you could get into a PhD program sooner.

Needless to say, leave out any aspect of the city unhappiness being part of your reasoning for switching.

 

[Member012345678]

Needless to say, leave out any aspect of the city unhappiness being part of your reasoning for switching.

What makes you say this? 🙂

 

[Psychadelic2012]

What makes you say this? 🙂

I'm guessing that means that you won't want to tell anyone that you switched programs due to hating the location. It doesn't sound good--as in, it's not a good reason in their eyes + will you do that to their program if you don't like the area?? Best to leave it out.

 

[ResearchGirlie]

What makes you say this? 🙂

Sorry! My previous sentence was horribly worded but psychadelic clarified for me.

Choosing to leave a graduate program because you don't like the area isn't a good reason in the eyes of a department. While these are definitely important things that contribute to your psychological well being, departments don't want a person who isn't going to finish the program.

 

[Member012345678]

Choosing to leave a graduate program because you don't like the area isn't a good reason in the eyes of a department.

Oh yes! I would never tell a doctoral program later (or even the Master's program I want to switch to) that part of the reason for wanting to switch programs is that I hate the location....I only discuss that fact anonymously here 🙂 Also, the location component is a minor reason compared to the training model fit reason; given that the fit is a substantial concern for me, the location element is acting as just a little push to be proactive about change, ya know?

 

[ResearchGirlie]

Oh yes! I would never tell a doctoral program later (or even the Master's program I want to switch to) that part of the reason for wanting to switch programs is that I hate the location....I only discuss that fact anonymously here 🙂 Also, the location component is a minor reason compared to the training model fit reason; given that the fit is a substantial concern for me, the location element is acting as just a little push to be proactive about change, ya know?

Definitely! There are important considerations that come into play that just aren't things we discuss when applying/interviewing.

I just wanted to make sure I included that in my original post, but instead wrote an awkwardly worded sentence that didn't make much sense. 😉

 

[Member012345678]

Definitely! There are important considerations that come into play that just aren't things we discuss when applying/interviewing.

I just wanted to make sure I included that in my original post, but instead wrote an awkwardly worded sentence that didn't make much sense. 😉

No worries 🙂

Does anyone else have any advice, suggestions, support, or criticism?

 

[Eivuwan]

How much more time do you have left in this program? It may not be worth it to switch if you'll be done with it soon.

 

[Member012345678]

I am not even done with my first semester yet. If the school were to make an offer for next Fall, I would have 2 semesters under my belt here at my current university.

 

[Member012345678]

Thoughts from anyone else? I'm hoping to hear (and it's probable I already have) from people who have been part of the admissions process for doc programs.