Third year grades don't matter, right?

[FatPigeon]

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Please surprise me and tell me that this is the case. I've "decided" on almost every possible specialty over the past 3 years, and with a week or two left before I need to pick a "field specific advisor" I'm down to IM--> fellowship and general surg (Don't ask. I want the broad foundation and I love procedures).

Board score is great (240+), one basic science publication based on 9 months bench work + one oral/poster presentation, etc. But third year sucks a fat one. So far I'm high pass (OB), pass (FM), pass (peds), and honors (psych). My current rotation, surgery, isn't going so well and it's one of my top two choices...I'm just not as outgoing or aggressive as the vultures (err...my classmates) surrounding me, and I'm noticed less often...

I'm at a 2nd tier MD school. Will a place like upenn, columbia, or yale-new haven really care about my stupid 3rd year grades? Luckily IM and GS aren't too competitive...but I'm pretty sure getting a "pass" in surgery would destroy me.

Anyone else want to whine about 3rd year? I'd be having a blast if it weren't an all-day stressful attempt at making people like me.

 

[TMP-SMX]

How would a pass destroy you? (Unless the place you would want to do a surgical residency was extremely competitive). And if you don't like the types of personalities of your students during the surgery rotation do you think you will like them when they are your surgical colleague interns?

 

[45408]

I hope this is a joke thread. Everyone knows that of all things, 3rd year grades DO MATTER.

 

[smq123]

How would a pass destroy you? (Unless the place you would want to do a surgical residency was extremely competitive). And if you don't like the types of personalities of your students during the surgery rotation do you think you will like them when they are your surgical colleague interns?

His classmates on this rotation with him will not necessarily go into surgery. They're just fighting for a grade, that's all.

Not all surgeons are the "vulture" types - in fact, I would argue that most are NOT.

So far I'm high pass (OB), pass (FM), pass (peds), and honors (psych). My current rotation, surgery, isn't going so well and it's one of my top two choices...I'm just not as outgoing or aggressive as the vultures (err...my classmates) surrounding me, and I'm noticed less often...

I'm at a 2nd tier MD school. Will a place like upenn, columbia, or yale-new haven really care about my stupid 3rd year grades? Luckily IM and GS aren't too competitive...but I'm pretty sure getting a "pass" in surgery would destroy me.

- If you ultimately decide on IM, a P in surgery won't destroy you, as long as your surgery shelf exam score is pretty good. They don't really care THAT MUCH about your surgery grade.

- If you ultimately decide on Gen surg, a P in surgery won't destroy you either, but you probably WILL be asked to defend it/explain it. Why would you want to enter a field where you "only" got a passing grade? And, to be honest, surgeons only really care about what other surgeons thought of you.

(And, no, "My classmates were ruthless vultures" is NOT a good explanation.)

You could always do a surgery sub-I and honor that. That would help.

- Why do you "have" to pick a specialty advisor RIGHT NOW? 😕 At least wait until you've finished IM!

- Do you already KNOW that you want to go to Penn, Columbia, or Yale for surgery? There are other excellent surgery programs that aren't as cut-throat...or have such a strong reputation for being malignant...

 

[howelljolly]

I hope this is a joke thread. Everyone knows that of all things, 3rd year grades DO MATTER.

Yup, often moreso than first and second year grades.

 

[Hurricane95]

Third year grades matter as little as getting shot in the face.

That being said, I don't think getting passes in rotations will destroy you. Unless you plan on applying to general surgery at MGH or something uber competitive. You'll get a surgery slot somewhere with your stats.

Now go out and get a beer or something.

 

[45408]

- Why do you "have" to pick a specialty advisor RIGHT NOW? 😕 At least wait until you've finished IM!

My school has a mandatory deadline of January 31.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I think third year clerkships are difficult to use in comparing applicants because of the diversity of grading systems out there. Schools criteria for honors differ, some schools don't have high passes, the percentage of people getting honors varies widely from 10% to 40%.

 

[ijcMD]

Please surprise me and tell me that this is the case. I've "decided" on almost every possible specialty over the past 3 years, and with a week or two left before I need to pick a "field specific advisor" I'm down to IM--> fellowship and general surg (Don't ask. I want the broad foundation and I love procedures).

Board score is great (240+), one basic science publication based on 9 months bench work + one oral/poster presentation, etc. But third year sucks a fat one. So far I'm high pass (OB), pass (FM), pass (peds), and honors (psych). My current rotation, surgery, isn't going so well and it's one of my top two choices...I'm just not as outgoing or aggressive as the vultures (err...my classmates) surrounding me, and I'm noticed less often...

I'm at a 2nd tier MD school. Will a place like upenn, columbia, or yale-new haven really care about my stupid 3rd year grades? Luckily IM and GS aren't too competitive...but I'm pretty sure getting a "pass" in surgery would destroy me.

Anyone else want to whine about 3rd year? I'd be having a blast if it weren't an all-day stressful attempt at making people like me.

you're so screwed...

 

[IHeartNerds]

- Do you already KNOW that you want to go to Penn, Columbia, or Yale for surgery? There are other excellent surgery programs that aren't as cut-throat...or have such a strong reputation for being malignant...

hey, here at penn we've been working hard on being less malignant. i think the surgery program here is grossly improved from fifteen years ago and has become less malignant than average -- which i agree, was not the case just a half-generation of training ago.

but yeah, that surgery grade and the letter you get from your chief of surg are pretty important for matching well.

 

[dilated]

hey, here at penn we've been working hard on being less malignant. i think the surgery program here is grossly improved from fifteen years ago and has become less malignant than average -- which i agree, was not the case just a half-generation of training ago.

but yeah, that surgery grade and the letter you get from your chief of surg are pretty important for matching well.

Our surgery clerkship is totally nonmalignant and that just makes it harder to honor. There were services where you were supposed to show up at 6 that students would show up at 4:30 to preround for the residents (despite being told by the attendings that you show up at 6). The easier the clerkship is and the more input residents have on your grade, the more "honors" becomes about inventing work to look good. Third year grades are BS.

 

[smq123]

hey, here at penn we've been working hard on being less malignant. i think the surgery program here is grossly improved from fifteen years ago and has become less malignant than average -- which i agree, was not the case just a half-generation of training ago.

- The residency program, or the clerkship, have gotten less malignant?

- Are you making these statements from the perspective of an MS2/MS3, or as a resident? (I'm honestly just curious, because I've heard a lot of rumors about Penn's malignancy....and most of them are from Penn students! )

 

[IHeartNerds]

- The residency program, or the clerkship, have gotten less malignant?

- Are you making these statements from the perspective of an MS2/MS3, or as a resident? (I'm honestly just curious, because I've heard a lot of rumors about Penn's malignancy....and most of them are from Penn students! )

The clerkship is almost cushy (well, ok, not quite ), and medicine is a significantly more painful rotation now as a student than is surgery. The residency program too has softened a lot from the early 1990s.

Mine is a wards student perspective but I have friends who have gone into the residency program.

 

[smq123]

The clerkship is almost cushy (well, ok, not quite ), and medicine is a significantly more painful rotation now as a student than is surgery.

Actually, a bunch of the Jefferson MS-IVs who did surgical sub-Is were discussing the Penn surgery clerkship....and we WERE using the word "cushy" to describe it! 😛 6-6, no weekends, no call - even for an MS-IV going into surgery? That's insane.

At Jeff, for the surgery sub-Is, we were working 4:30 or 5 - 6 or 7. (For a while, I was coming in at 3:30 or 4 AM.) Q4 call; came in every single weekend, both Saturday and Sunday. While the hours sucked, I think that that at least gives you a more realistic idea of what to expect as an intern.

Good to hear that the residency program is less malignant, though.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

Actually, a bunch of the Jefferson MS-IVs who did surgical sub-Is were discussing the Penn surgery clerkship....and we WERE using the word "cushy" to describe it! 😛 6-6, no weekends, no call - even for an MS-IV going into surgery? That's insane.

At Jeff, for the surgery sub-Is, we were working 4:30 or 5 - 6 or 7. (For a while, I was coming in at 3:30 or 4 AM.) Q4 call; came in every single weekend, both Saturday and Sunday. While the hours sucked, I think that that at least gives you a more realistic idea of what to expect as an intern.

Good to hear that the residency program is less malignant, though.

whoa, those Penn med students are being babied, man! My trauma surg rotation was also something like 4:30am till 7 or 8 pm, q4 overnight call. Because of the way the team cycled, the allottment of a weekly day off for the med students fell through the cracks, so I got one day off in 21 days. It was brutal but I learned so much, and in retrospect it was a great experience.

BTW, to the OP, I think your portfolio looks quite decent. You have solid grades, excellent step 1, and some significant research experience involving a publication (first author? If so, even better!). If you like research, consider doing a year-long research fellowship after MS3. If you make a significant effort, that will make many programs look at you that otherwise may not have.

Keep in mind, clinical grades can be so subjective and have so much inter-grader variability that they are often really not fully representative of the med student's full talents and potential. Sure, maybe some ultra-crazy-elite program might cut you off, but hey that's how they treat their housestaff too. Who would want that? I dont know about Penn, but believe me, Columbia is no blessing. . .It's an over-hyped place that is full of nepotism, snobbery, and embarrassing socioeconomic division. If you're not a columbia med alum or from some other "elite" school, and happen to end up there for residency, expect to be bullied and not taught. Maybe your grades are a blessing in disguise and you will end up at a program that treats you well and teaches you a lot more. Quality is not always in a big name. I learned that the hard way.

So, stop worrying about your MS3 grades. Work hard, like you're doing, and concentrate on learning to get as much as you can out of med school, because what you know is yours to keep. Those 2 things are really the only things you can control in this chaos. You will forget what your grades were in a few years. Really, they dont matter as long as you dont fail, which wont happen if you're working hard. Even if you want to go into plastics or derm, you can always go the back door route through gen surg or medicine. It's been done. If you want to do any of those or rads or urology, do a research year in a lab doing work in that field.

Good luck!!

 

[bikerchick]

I'm a 4th year applying to General Surgery (just finished my last interview), and I think that your 3rd year clerkship grades are the most important grades of medical school without a doubt.

I think that even general surgery has become increasingly competitive over the last few years. If you receive a pass in the clerkship, it's not the end of the world, but it doesn't help your cause. And your Step 1 board score of 240 is actually just average at many gen surgery programs. Someone from my school received a pass in his surgery clerkship and opted to take a year out to do a lot of research under the Surgery Chairmen, got many publications, but still didn't really get interviews at top programs.

If you want to get into a top surgery program, you need excellent letters of recommendation (especially from your chair), and you need to do away rotations at the program you're interested in and be a superstar.