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UseUrHeadFred

Oh no! It's a Wumpus!
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Where does it end? First, you lose personal life getting in to medical school. Then, you sacrifice your personal life for medical school classes and Step I. Then you sacrifice for your rotations. Then you REALLY sacrifice for internship, then residency. Some choose to continue to sacrifice for the rest of their lives by choosing a specialty that requires them to work 70 hours a week... forever.

I've always believed that your career is an integrated part of your life, not something that you box away or something that you make your highest priority. There are so many things a person can do in their life. There are places to explore, other academic interests outside of medicine, and naturally, the creation of a family - in my opinion the most important thing a person can do in their life.

Medicine fundamentally involves compassion and sacrifice. But if you aren't carrying out your life - if the only thing you do is medicine - you lose your humanity from below. Doctor, heal thyself.

And they wonder why people are increasingly choosing lifestyle specialties.

I think it's only humane.

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Ah, Good. I think your getting the picture of Medicine.

SACRIFICE!!! ;)
 
there's no sense in complaining; after all, you chose this path. realistically, medical school isn't that bad. and unless you want a 9-5 job selling insurance, you'll end up putting in long hours at work in any field.
 
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Perhaps I should clarify:

I'm not whining. I'm not even angry or anything at the process.

I'm just presenting an argument to see how others feel about the topic. Namely, the question is: By choosing to go into medicine, are you a Physician more than anything else in your life? Are you truly choosing to sacrifice your life for the sake of others, or do you need to be a so-called "well balanced individual" to be a good doctor?
 
does anyone else get the impression that doc05 is a bowl of laughs in real life? no offense bud, but your posts make me want to kill myself, again.
 
Seriously, I think you people need to have balance in your life. I somehow manage to work out, spend time with my wife, spend time with my friends and still do well 3rd year. I think balance is the key.. Sadly, too many people in the medical field have a non existent emotional IQ and lack people skills. This combo will make for a very sad life. Want lifestyle? Go into Derm, Radio, Optho and other fields..want to work 70 hours / week do CT surgery...
 
doc05 said:
there's no sense in complaining; after all, you chose this path. realistically, medical school isn't that bad. and unless you want a 9-5 job selling insurance, you'll end up putting in long hours at work in any field.

Unless you enter pharmacy or Dentistry...Plenty of 8 hour/day 100k per year jobs.
 
Why would you sacrifice your personal life? :confused:
 
I think it's possible to achieve a balance, most of the time. My position is that there are certain things that I'm just not willing to sacrifice for the sake of school. The people in my life come first. I am going to have a life. I am going to have fun on Friday and Saturday nights (well, unless it's right before a test). I am going to spend time with my husband, I am going to talk to my family, I am going to see my parents when they come to visit rather than spend all day in the library, I am going to see my friends for dinner occasionally. It's easy to let medical school take over your whole life, if you let it, but it seems like a miserable situation to me. I am NOT a slacker--I do my best to learn the material and I do pretty well--but I won't sacrifice my life or the people I love on the alter of medical school. Those are my priorities--people come first. At the end of the day, I think that's what matters most. And, incidentally, that's what drives me to work so hard in the clinics--because there, my work has an actual effect on people. I'm a pretty conscientious student and I'm going to be a conscientious doctor. But, I also insist on having a LIFE. I'm sure I'll sacrifice that a lot during residency, and for that period, I'm willing to do it. But that is the only time in my life when I plan to allow work to take over completely.

Honestly, I think most people who completely sacrifice their personal lives for the sake of their medical career aren't doing it for the sake of other people--they're doing it for their egos, or because they have some kind of neurosis and are perfectionists who have to be the absolute best at everything they do, or else they'll feel worthless. Or they have an unrewarding personal life. Most people just aren't that altruistic, that they're willing to completely sacrifice their lives for other people without any ulterior motive. I'm not talking about people who merely work hard--I respect that. I'm talking about people who sacrifice their entire lives for the sake of medicine or more specifically, medical school. It's possible to take a good thing (working hard) too far, and I see a lot of people doing that. I just think that most people who completely, totally sacrifice their personal lives for the sake of studying or whatever are most likely not doing it purely out of a love of medicine. There's some other reason behind it. Think about the image of most cardiothoracic surgeons, for example. Those guys are known for being arrogant, egoistic, and not having the best people skills. There's no doubt the work they do is very important, and I'm glad there are people willing to go through the (brutal) training to do it. But I don't think they do it purely out of love for humanity. There's usually a certain amount of ego and a god-complex involved.

That said, I think most of us in the medical field have some kind of ulterior motive involved--status, prestige, money, a feeling of superiority, or whatever. It's not purely about helping people. Myself for example, part of my subconscious motivation for going into medicine (that I didn't realize before entering medical school) was that I like being in positions of authority and feeling smart. That doesn't mean I don't also genuinely like helping people, and enjoy taking care of patients, and find medicine interesting and stimulating, and get satisfaction out of doing work that I consider worthwhile. But if we're honest with ourselves, I don't think those things are the whole motivation for most people. Something about medicine fills some kind of psychological need for most of us, or we wouldn't be willing to make the sacrifices we do for it. Anyone else willing to 'fess up to their less-than-admirable motivations (conscious or subconscious) for going into medicine in the first place? I'd be interested to see what it is for other people.
 
jennie 21 said:
Honestly, I think most people who completely sacrifice their personal lives for the sake of their medical career aren't doing it for the sake of other people--they're doing it for their egos, or because they have some kind of neurosis and are perfectionists who have to be the absolute best at everything they do, or else they'll feel worthless. Or they have an unrewarding personal life. Most people just aren't that altruistic, that they're willing to completely sacrifice their lives for other people without any ulterior motive. I'm not talking about people who merely work hard--I respect that. I'm talking about people who sacrifice their entire lives for the sake of medicine or more specifically, medical school. It's possible to take a good thing (working hard) too far, and I see a lot of people doing that. I just think that most people who completely, totally sacrifice their personal lives for the sake of studying or whatever are most likely not doing it purely out of a love of medicine. There's some other reason behind it. Think about the image of most cardiothoracic surgeons, for example. Those guys are known for being arrogant, egoistic, and not having the best people skills. There's no doubt the work they do is very important, and I'm glad there are people willing to go through the (brutal) training to do it. But I don't think they do it purely out of love for humanity. There's usually a certain amount of ego and a god-complex involved.

That said, I think most of us in the medical field have some kind of ulterior motive involved--status, prestige, money, a feeling of superiority, or whatever. It's not purely about helping people. Myself for example, part of my subconscious motivation for going into medicine (that I didn't realize before entering medical school) was that I like being in positions of authority and feeling smart. That doesn't mean I don't also genuinely like helping people, and enjoy taking care of patients, and find medicine interesting and stimulating, and get satisfaction out of doing work that I consider worthwhile. But if we're honest with ourselves, I don't think those things are the whole motivation for most people. Something about medicine fills some kind of psychological need for most of us, or we wouldn't be willing to make the sacrifices we do for it. Anyone else willing to 'fess up to their less-than-admirable motivations (conscious or subconscious) for going into medicine in the first place? I'd be interested to see what it is for other people.

One of the most profound posts I have read in a long time on SDN. Wow. Very insightful indeed. And refreshingly honest, to say the least.
 
"I realized something about myself lately. I am going through med school so that I can gain knowledge so that I can use that and my compassion to help others. But med school has been keeping me so busy that I am losing compassion to have relationship with my gf, friends, and families. Those people who love me so much and has helped me to get to where I am now, are being pressed out of my life. If I don't have the time or the compassion to keep my relationship with my loved ones, how am i going to learn to have relationship with my patients as a doctor. Med school and learning is important, but so thing are more important. I keep forgetting that I have many different roles that I need to play (son, friend, bf, family member), instead of just being a "med student". I am going to try balance everything. I am still adjusting to the lifestyle of a medical student, so it might take some time before I can form a balance that I like and works for me."

This is something that I wrote on my online journal.
 
Sacrifice? why is everything so bloody dramatic..............do it or dont do it...........now get lost!
:smuggrin: :smuggrin: :smuggrin: :smuggrin: :smuggrin: :smuggrin: :smuggrin:
 
altruism=Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness. :rolleyes:
selflessness=Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish
benevolent=Characterized by or suggestive of doing good.
?Volunteers need both selfish and selfless motives to sustain their interest? (Natalie de Combray).

the primary goals of medicine: (according to some medical ethics book somewhere)

benificence
do no harm
justice
did i miss one?

how to be successful in life: "you dont have to be great to be happy. you just have to be great at being happy."- me


These quotes are a little nonsensical, but anyways- the point is that selflessness is not the same as being benevolent. you do something benevolent (if you believe the practice of medicine is something good)or "altruistic" ( I quote this because I think people in the medical field often use this word incorrectly) because it makes you feel good- for whatever reason- it is an egosyntonic (sp) type of behavior.

true selflessness is not a human behavior- try to find an example that proves this wrong.

sacrifice is pointless- if you are sacrificing something you care about for something you care about less- then you are making the wrong decision.

you can make some argument about immediate vs. delayed satisfaction- but realistically the balance you are all talking about is one on a grander scale. are you going to quit medical school to go on one date? no. would you quit medical school if you had to be alone forever? maybe. you get the point though-it is idiotic to think that you have a right to expect sacrifice from another person (since that would imply selfless behavior) :idea: - unless they are not in tune with their own philopsophies on life (and if so- that sucks for them).

does it matter what you do with your life? is doing something for yourself inherently better or worse than doing something for another person? if so, why?

assigning a value judgement on another person's behavior (in this example assuming they aren't good if they don't sacrifice) is to impose one's own morality upon another person. this is pretty unamerican behavior (i won't make any political assertions other than that). :D

assuming that being a pediatrician in an innercity is better, or more in line with the morals of modern medicine, than being a plastic surgeon in beverly is to miss the point of medicine.

we are here to provide a service and help people. the motive is inconsequential as long as the job is done.

this is a little off topic (not like this whole post-isn't) but compassion is a word that gets thrown around a lot- i alluded to the fact that it seems strange to me that there is some assumption that doing something for another person is seen as somehow better than doing something for oneself, but there seems to be this sort of PCism about compassion. what is the value of compassion? emoting for someone is a gratifying experience. just like some people feel good after a good cry- or when you feel sad you might listen to a sad song that makes you feel worse- or allows you to relate to someone. it is a very human behavior- but one wrapped in self-indulgence. what are you doing when you feel compassion for someone? you relate to them, or relate their situation to one you have been in, one someone you care about has or could be in, or some other extension of this idea. you feel bed for them because you feel sorry for humanity and yourself and your mortality. you are afraid and feel sadness because of this sudden realization of your own or another's mortality- and YOUR subsequent loss of them. what is more selfpreserving/selfish than fearing mortality? i am not saying there is anything wrong with it- I just think it is misguided to place so much importance on having compassion in our field (i suspect at times this percieved compassion is chosen over competence). i don't think that compassion makes you do a better job than someone who follows the basic goals of medicine (as above). so why insist upon it? maybe it makes patients feel better? maybe that changes outcomes? seems like a pretty spurious argument without some proof. that is why i get confused when people on this board, and elsewhere, say that they think compassion is the primary and most important virtue of a physician.

we are medical students and physicians for our own reasons- and no one reason is better than another- simply because the only judgement of value can come from comparison to our own intrinsic morality.

my own belief is that work is good if done for the sake of work- not for benifecence, personal gain, or community gain- it is the way of the world- we work because we can. :confused:

now that's rambling dammit! :sleep:
 
I'm glad people are arguing their opinions. I think this topic is the relevant to many of the posts on this particular board.

I just don't think doctors should feel as though they need to crucify themselves and their families.
 
praying4MD said:
One of the most profound posts I have read in a long time on SDN. Wow. Very insightful indeed. And refreshingly honest, to say the least.

I second that! More, please!
 
LTbulldogs said:
Unless you enter pharmacy or Dentistry...Plenty of 8 hour/day 100k per year jobs.

You really should go be a pharmacist in a busy pharmacy for a day or so before you write stuff like this, implying it's an easy 100K/year job. Before I came to med school, I was convinced that the only job more physically demanding (aside from FOOTBALL, of course), was that of a surgeon. Now I'm not so sure anymore that being a surgeon is more demanding.

To answer the original question: I made a lot of sacrifices on the way to med school that felt at the time like they were too big a price to pay. But I look back now and realize that, if I had not had to choose at several points between pursuing med school and continuing the path I was on, I would have ended up vaguely unhappy in many other areas in my life, and not just in my career. Maybe someday I'll think that having my own family was, in the end, more important than who I chose to have it with, but right now I'm glad I still have that choice ahead of me.
 
All I have to say is now matter how hard you work, someone will work harder.
 
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