This guy is one of us?

[PainDrain]

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Kansas senator believes political propaganda, fearmongering impairs COVID-19 response • Kansas Reflector

Physician and Sen. Mark Steffen's caustic manner and strident views on COVID-19 were felt on the Reno County Commission and now in the Kansas Capitol.

kansasreflector.com

Kan. foes of COVID vaccinations push for protection from mandates

Sen. Mark Steffen, a Republican, said he was working to force a special legislative sessio

hayspost.com

He was critical of the vaccine but brought an expert on “essential oils” to speak to the county commission.

 

[Hoya11]

Kansas senator believes political propaganda, fearmongering impairs COVID-19 response • Kansas Reflector

Physician and Sen. Mark Steffen's caustic manner and strident views on COVID-19 were felt on the Reno County Commission and now in the Kansas Capitol.

kansasreflector.com

Kan. foes of COVID vaccinations push for protection from mandates

Sen. Mark Steffen, a Republican, said he was working to force a special legislative sessio

hayspost.com

He was critical of the vaccine but brought an expert on “essential oils” to speak to the county commission.

there are doctors out there who will do absolutely anything for money or some other secondary gain

see: the opioid epidemic

 

[deleted87051]

Kansas senator believes political propaganda, fearmongering impairs COVID-19 response • Kansas Reflector

Physician and Sen. Mark Steffen's caustic manner and strident views on COVID-19 were felt on the Reno County Commission and now in the Kansas Capitol.

kansasreflector.com

Kan. foes of COVID vaccinations push for protection from mandates

Sen. Mark Steffen, a Republican, said he was working to force a special legislative sessio

hayspost.com

He was critical of the vaccine but brought an expert on “essential oils” to speak to the county commission.

Well the oils are essential.

 

[vector2]

Kansas senator believes political propaganda, fearmongering impairs COVID-19 response • Kansas Reflector

Physician and Sen. Mark Steffen's caustic manner and strident views on COVID-19 were felt on the Reno County Commission and now in the Kansas Capitol.

kansasreflector.com

Kan. foes of COVID vaccinations push for protection from mandates

Sen. Mark Steffen, a Republican, said he was working to force a special legislative sessio

hayspost.com

He was critical of the vaccine but brought an expert on “essential oils” to speak to the county commission.

Graduated in the mid 90s, started doing interventional pain on his own in the boonies without fellowship or pain boards even though the pain exam has been around since '93. Hardcore conservative christian. Big game hunter. Put a section listing his kids' accomplishments in his own personal resume. Wears a bolo tie unironically.

Imo the essential oils / antivax thing sounds about par for this guy's life course.

MEET DR. MARK – Dr. Mark Steffen

www.steffenstatesenate.com

 

[vector2]

This lady in a whole new league tho

"
Lee Merritt, an orthopedic surgeon from Iowa, told the revival that taking the COVID-19 vaccine was a bigger risk than being infected by the coronavirus. She also said wearing masks was an occult symbol of submission.

She speculated COVID-19 could be associated with implementation of 5G technology, which some believe could harm human health. A more likely explanation for the pandemic, Merritt said, is that COVID-19 was formulated as a bioweapon that appeared extremely deadly before settling into something akin to a psychological operation.

“If you think we’re fighting a virus, you’re going to be a victim,” she said. “If you understand that we’re fighting a war, then you have a chance at survival.”"

 

[DocMcCoy]

Graduated in the mid 90s, started doing interventional pain on his own in the boonies without fellowship or pain boards even though the pain exam has been around since '93. Hardcore conservative christian. Big game hunter. Put a section listing his kids' accomplishments in his own personal resume. Wears a bolo tie unironically.

Imo the essential oils / antivax thing sounds about par for this guy's life course.

MEET DR. MARK – Dr. Mark Steffen

www.steffenstatesenate.com

Yep. Another conservative Christian boogeyman.

 

[wholeheartedly]

What percentage of these folks are grifters vs true believers I wonder?

 

[vector2]

Yep. Another conservative Christian boogeyman.

The facts are what they are. It's very sad, actually.

Why Some White Evangelical Republicans Are So Opposed To The COVID-19 Vaccine

In the race to get Americans vaccinated, two groups are commanding a lot of attention: Republicans and white evangelicals. Both are less likely to have been vac…

www.google.com

 

[DocMcCoy]

The facts are what they are. It's very sad, actually.

View attachment 343745

View attachment 343744
View attachment 343743

Why Some White Evangelical Republicans Are So Opposed To The COVID-19 Vaccine

In the race to get Americans vaccinated, two groups are commanding a lot of attention: Republicans and white evangelicals. Both are less likely to have been vac…

www.google.com

Yes, yes.

But. Because it gets lost in the noise

Not all Christians are evangelicals.

Not all antivaccine mandate are antivaccine.

Not all republicans are science denying “dotes”.

Even though we all look alike, amirite?

 

[vector2]

Yes, yes.

But. Because it gets lost in the noise

Not all Christians are evangelicals.

Not all antivaccine mandate are antivaccine.

Not all republicans are science denying “dotes”.

Even though we all look alike, amirite?

Well I said "hardcore conservative Christian" and listed 5 other specific things when talking about the dude in the OP. And it turns out that degree of religiosity is, in fact, highly correlated with the anti-vax / hcq/ivermectin / alternative treatments crowd.

It sounds like you're trying to ram some accusation of overgeneralization in there which never actually occurred.

 

[Hork Bajir]

Even though we all look alike, amirite?

I mean… Looks like a ____, sounds like a ___, hangs out with other ____s, votes like a ____, kind of puts the burden of proof on you that you’re not a ____

 

[DocMcCoy]

Well I said "hardcore conservative Christian" and listed 5 other specific things when talking about the dude in the OP. And it turns out that degree of religiosity is, in fact, highly correlated with the anti-vax / hcq/ivermectin / alternative treatments crowd.

It sounds like you're trying to ram some accusation of overgeneralization in there which never actually occurred.

Perhaps.

Though your article states roughly 26 percent of evangelicals polled would refuse vaccine. Not sure what that number amounts to, but I'm pretty sure it is an overgeneralization to say that since you're a hardcore conservative white guy that likes to hunt, the "antivax thing sounds about par."

just sayin.

 

[robellis]

Absolute nutjobs

 

[deleted87051]

If a group of people are willing to believe some widely subscribed fantasy, it’s not surprising they can believe other widely held fantasies too.

 

[vector2]

Perhaps.

Though your article states roughly 26 percent of evangelicals polled would refuse vaccine. Not sure what that number amounts to, but I'm pretty sure it is an overgeneralization to say that since you're a hardcore conservative white guy that likes to hunt, the "antivax thing sounds about par."

just sayin.

The fact remains that those most likely to flat out refuse or demonize vaccination (as opposed to just being hesitant) are rural, white, republican, very conservative, and evangelical.

But that's not all I said, was it? In combination with his history and some of his attributes I said it was par "for this guy's life course." I know you really, really want to be able to villainize me, but you're gonna have a try a bit harder there chief.

 

[DocMcCoy]

The fact remains that those most likely to flat out refuse or demonize vaccination (as opposed to just being hesitant) are rural, white, republican, very conservative, and evangelical.

But that's not all I said, was it? In combination with his history and some of his attributes I said it was par "for this guy's life course." I know you really, really want to be able to villainize me, but you're gonna have a try a bit harder there chief.

I just found it strange to use that specific list of characteristics to describe him, Bolo tie wearin' non fellowship trained etc., and automatically associate that with antivaxxer, which, I'm not even sure if this guy fits 100%. Just an interesting observation, but thanks for your clarification.

And despite what you may think, I'm not out to make you the villain, I just dont agree with you a lot of the time. Just holding you to the same standard you would hold me.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Florida's new surgeon general opposes mandates, calls COVID-19 vaccines "nothing special"

As Florida continues to have some of the highest numbers of COVID cases in the nation, the governor has appointed a doctor with a history of touting unproven treatments.

www.google.com

MD PHD from Harvard, internal medicine trained. SMH

 

[vector2]

I just found it strange to use that specific list of characteristics to describe him, Bolo tie wearin' non fellowship trained etc., and automatically associate that with antivaxxer, which, I'm not even sure if this guy fits 100%. Just an interesting observation, but thanks for your clarification.

And despite what you may think, I'm not out to make you the villain, I just dont agree with you a lot of the time. Just holding you to the same standard you would hold me.

Why's that list strange? Non-fellowship trained, non-pain boarded and likely practicing out of his trained expertise is consistent with many of the MD quacks out there hocking or promoting alternative meds (like Sheffen was doing by inviting the essential oils for covid lady). Bolo tie wearing, in addition to incidentally being hilariously quirky AF imo, screams cowboy from rural area (rural correlated to being more anti-vax). You put it together with the religiosity and extreme conservativism and it's not a stretch to say what I did about him.

 

[aafisahar]

Florida's new surgeon general opposes mandates, calls COVID-19 vaccines "nothing special"

As Florida continues to have some of the highest numbers of COVID cases in the nation, the governor has appointed a doctor with a history of touting unproven treatments.

www.google.com

MD PHD from Harvard, internal medicine trained. SMH

delusions of money and power can convince anyone of anything.

 

[deleted87051]

Florida's new surgeon general opposes mandates, calls COVID-19 vaccines "nothing special"

As Florida continues to have some of the highest numbers of COVID cases in the nation, the governor has appointed a doctor with a history of touting unproven treatments.

www.google.com

MD PHD from Harvard, internal medicine trained. SMH

delusions of money and power can convince anyone of anything.

Desantis is a Harvard law grad. Harvard is a common pathway for many young, smart, ambitious, and sometimes cynical people. It would be interesting to read their admissions essays.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Why's that list strange? Non-fellowship trained, non-pain boarded and likely practicing out of his trained expertise is consistent with many of the MD quacks out there hocking or promoting alternative meds (like Sheffen was doing by inviting the essential oils for covid lady). Bolo tie wearing, in addition to incidentally being hilariously quirky AF imo, screams cowboy from rural area (rural correlated to being more anti-vax). You put it together with the religiosity and extreme conservativism and it's not a stretch to say what I did about him.

Lol that’s rich. Dude he is practicing pain medicine and has for what like 30 years? I guess I should tell my partners that do hearts to back off. Guess I should refuse all my kiddos too. Again, there is a big difference between those that are antivaccine mandate/skeptics and those that the see the vaccine as the devil’s semen. Not really sure where this guy lies on the spectrum, but it’s probably closer to a skeptic with strong conservative values than a lunatic satanizing moderna. Your own article would suggest that is the case for most of these people. You can’t cherry pick a couple crazies and generalize the whole group and that was what was implied from your OP.

 

[deleted87051]

Lol that’s rich. Dude he is practicing pain medicine and has for what like 30 years? I guess I should tell my partners that do hearts to back off. Guess I should refuse all my kiddos too. Again, there is a big difference between those that are antivaccine mandate/skeptics and those that the see the vaccine as the devil’s semen. Not really sure where this guy lies on the spectrum, but it’s probably closer to a skeptic with strong conservative values than a lunatic satanizing moderna. Your own article would suggest that is the case for most of these people. You can’t cherry pick a couple crazies and generalize the whole group and that was what was implied from your OP.

I thought essential oils were a California fruit n nut thing. Didn’t realize folks with strong conservative values were into them too. It’s funny how things get aligned.

 

[DocMcCoy]

I thought essential oils were a California fruit n nut thing. Didn’t realize folks with strong conservative values were into them too. It’s funny how things get aligned.

And I thought antivaccine sentiment was a California mommy autism concern prior to the pandemic. It is funny.

 

[gasdoc77]

I just found it strange to use that specific list of characteristics to describe him, Bolo tie wearin' non fellowship trained etc., and automatically associate that with antivaxxer, which, I'm not even sure if this guy fits 100%. Just an interesting observation, but thanks for your clarification.

And despite what you may think, I'm not out to make you the villain, I just dont agree with you a lot of the time. Just holding you to the same standard you would hold me.

Vector Victor likes to categorize people. It is a defense mechanism of a simple mind, and is the same mindset that leads to sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. Being someone with over half a century of experience being discriminated against, I reassure you that his tendencies are not going to be resolved on an anonymous online forum.

 

[deleted87051]

And I thought antivaccine sentiment was a California mommy autism concern prior to the pandemic. It is funny.

Sadly it is the same group as the essential oils crowd. We have more than our fair share of antivaxxer yoga moms protesting at school board meetings.

 

[vector2]

Lol that’s rich. Dude he is practicing pain medicine and has for what like 30 years? I guess I should tell my partners that do hearts to back off. Guess I should refuse all my kiddos too. Again, there is a big difference between those that are antivaccine mandate/skeptics and those that the see the vaccine as the devil’s semen. Not really sure where this guy lies on the spectrum, but it’s probably closer to a skeptic with strong conservative values than a lunatic satanizing moderna. Your own article would suggest that is the case for most of these people. You can’t cherry pick a couple crazies and generalize the whole group and that was what was implied from your OP.

Trying to compare generalists doing bread and butter hearts and kids with a grandfathered ABA boarded, non moca participating, non fellowship trained, non pain exam boarded (again, a certificate that existed since before he trained) generalist doing interventional pain in rural areas where pts have no alternatives just ain't the same thing. And you know it. And again, you keep writing "generalize the whole group" when I did no such thing.

But lol, you think he's on the skeptic side and not the demon semen batsht crazy side? The state senator who brought in an "essential oils can prevent COVID" infomercial lady to an official Kansas hearing? Let's go back to the tape:

"
“I like to use an immune support [oils], which is like putting my body in a bubble. It’s a powerful tool to combat viral and bacterial threats,” said Ferguson, drawing closer to her deTERRA punchline. “We offer protocols for the current threat we face. We have protocol for someone that’s staying at home during a home quarantine with a sick loved one. We have a responsive protocol for someone that wants to utilize symptom management tools and olfactory retraining — naturally — during the duration of the virus.”
...
Ma’am, if this is an advertisement, I think you need to do something else,” Hirst said.

“It’s not an advertisement,” interjected Steffen, an anesthesiologist from Hutchinson who had been on the commission for one week. “She’s doing perfectly fine, thank you.”
"

 

[DocMcCoy]

Sadly it is the same group as the essential oils crowd. We have more than our fair share of antivaxxer yoga moms protesting at school board meetings.

It sucks, these are the people that you are never going to get through. The group that is never going to get the vaccine. And yes, admittedly there are way more on the right than the left. But, there is a huge number that are at least open to conversation. We are never going to broach that conversation by lumping them all together and dismissing anyone that says something we don't agree with. All I'm tryna say

 

[DocMcCoy]

Trying to compare generalists doing bread and butter hearts and kids with a grandfathered ABA boarded, non moca participating, non fellowship trained, non pain exam boarded (again, a certificate that existed since before he trained) generalist doing interventional pain in rural areas where there's no alternatives just ain't the same thing. And you know it. And again, you keep writing "generalize the whole group" when I did no such thing.

But lol, you think he's on the skeptic side and not the demon semen batsht crazy side? The state senator who brought in an "essential oils can prevent COVID" infomercial lady to an official Kansas hearing? Let's go back to the tape:

"
“I like to use an immune support [oils], which is like putting my body in a bubble. It’s a powerful tool to combat viral and bacterial threats,” said Ferguson, drawing closer to her deTERRA punchline. “We offer protocols for the current threat we face. We have protocol for someone that’s staying at home during a home quarantine with a sick loved one. We have a responsive protocol for someone that wants to utilize symptom management tools and olfactory retraining — naturally — during the duration of the virus.”
...
Ma’am, if this is an advertisement, I think you need to do something else,” Hirst said.

“It’s not an advertisement,” interjected Steffen, an anesthesiologist from Hutchinson who had been on the commission for one week. “She’s doing perfectly fine, thank you.”
"

Again, its pain medicine. Pretty sure I could go out and do that comfortably. He isn't a completely untrained doc running a med spa. So, no, I disagree.

So, he isn't apposed to the vaccine, and he previously stated lock downs probably were effective. He thinks neither is worth the risk to our constitutional freedoms? Yes, I say he is probably closer to the conservative/skeptic than they crazy lady you posted. I wonder if he is vaccinated?

 

[vector2]

Again, its pain medicine. Pretty sure I could go out and do that comfortably. He isn't a completely untrained doc running a med spa. So, no, I disagree.

So, he isn't apposed to the vaccine, and he previously stated lock downs probably were effective. He thinks neither is worth the risk to our constitutional freedoms? Yes, I say he is probably closer to the conservative/skeptic than they crazy lady you posted. I wonder if he is vaccinated?

He says he does interventional pain. If you think you could go practice interventional pain (or critical care for that matter) without fellowship and/or boards then god bless. His resume also says he was in private practice for 4 yrs in Wyoming before he returned to Kansas to start rural interventional pain practice so it's not like he was even close to his training. It's shady AF. Put together with the rest of his characteristics, being an alternative medicine quack is not a stretch.

Our so-called rational skeptic who thinks denial of ivermectin and hcq is premeditated murder:

"Lastly, the vaccine. It's not a vaccine. It's a medical procedure. It does not meet the definition of a vaccine. It is a medical intervention......I'm not gonna do it [get the vaccine]"

Of course he throws in some statements about how it's your choice, but he's being totally performative. The equivalent of telling a person who looks up to you that the shot might as well be cyanide but of course "it's your choice"

 

[Mad Jack]

delusions of money and power can convince anyone of anything.

Enough dollar signs will trick your brain into drinking just about any flavor of Kool-aid

 

[wendalltwolf]

I thought essential oils were a California fruit n nut thing. Didn’t realize folks with strong conservative values were into them too. It’s funny how things get aligned.

that Qanon shaman went on a hunger strike in jail until they served him organic food

 

[deleted126335]

that Qanon shaman went on a hunger strike in jail until they served him organic food

They should have let him continue.

 

[bjjmike69]

vector 2 I’m just a lurker here but pretty much you’re always posting and being a dick. Whether it’s making fun of Republicans / Evangelicals (I mean, let’s not kid ourselves here, you’d also make fun of a Catholic) or being it’s your way or the highway on a debate, you’re just a prick with the biggest ego I’ve ever seen on an internet forum. On another thread someone made the same claim about you (being a dick) so I wanted to give an objective 3rd party opinion. Take that as you may, I will not be responding to you

 

[aafisahar]

vector 2 I’m just a lurker here but pretty much you’re always posting and being a dick. Whether it’s making fun of Republicans / Evangelicals (I mean, let’s not kid ourselves here, you’d also make fun of a Catholic) or being it’s your way or the highway on a debate, you’re just a prick with the biggest ego I’ve ever seen on an internet forum. On another thread someone made the same claim about you (being a dick) so I wanted to give an objective 3rd party opinion. Take that as you may, I will not be responding to you

bye have a great time

 

[robellis]

vector 2 I’m just a lurker here but pretty much you’re always posting and being a dick. Whether it’s making fun of Republicans / Evangelicals (I mean, let’s not kid ourselves here, you’d also make fun of a Catholic) or being it’s your way or the highway on a debate, you’re just a prick with the biggest ego I’ve ever seen on an internet forum. On another thread someone made the same claim about you (being a dick) so I wanted to give an objective 3rd party opinion. Take that as you may, I will not be responding to you

Bye bye

 

[coffeebythelake]

vector 2 I’m just a lurker here but pretty much you’re always posting and being a dick. Whether it’s making fun of Republicans / Evangelicals (I mean, let’s not kid ourselves here, you’d also make fun of a Catholic) or being it’s your way or the highway on a debate, you’re just a prick with the biggest ego I’ve ever seen on an internet forum. On another thread someone made the same claim about you (being a dick) so I wanted to give an objective 3rd party opinion. Take that as you may, I will not be responding to you

"objective" opinion?
hahaha ok

 

[vector2]

vector 2 I’m just a lurker here but pretty much you’re always posting and being a dick. Whether it’s making fun of Republicans / Evangelicals (I mean, let’s not kid ourselves here, you’d also make fun of a Catholic) or being it’s your way or the highway on a debate, you’re just a prick with the biggest ego I’ve ever seen on an internet forum. On another thread someone made the same claim about you (being a dick) so I wanted to give an objective 3rd party opinion. Take that as you may, I will not be responding to you

Sorry you feel that way, but your 3rd party opinion ain't objective. I mean, you just called it an "opinion" ....so pretty much by definition it isn't.

No argument here that I don't just sit there complacently and nod my head like a puppy when someone is going fullbore ignorant dingus on a topic, be it politics or science or covid or vaccinations or whatever. But do you know what you or the other (typically conservative) posters who whine about being a meanie very rarely ever do? Refute any evidence-based argument I've made substantially on the merits.

And really, it's the same thing you're doing here. You don't say "wow vector2, all the evidence you've posted *does* indicate that rural, conservative, evangelical, eccentric etc is the most correlated subgroup with being antivax." It's simply "this guy said stuff about groups of people I like so he must be a dick." But anyway, peace. Enjoy your view from the cheap seats.





PS I love the catholics

 

[Goro]

Why's that list strange? Non-fellowship trained, non-pain boarded and likely practicing out of his trained expertise is consistent with many of the MD quacks out there hocking or promoting alternative meds (like Sheffen was doing by inviting the essential oils for covid lady). Bolo tie wearing, in addition to incidentally being hilariously quirky AF imo, screams cowboy from rural area (rural correlated to being more anti-vax). You put it together with the religiosity and extreme conservativism and it's not a stretch to say what I did about him.

If anything, you're being conservative in your descriptions.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Sorry you feel that way, but your 3rd party opinion ain't objective. I mean, you just called it an "opinion" ....so pretty much by definition it isn't.

No argument here that I don't just sit there complacently and nod my head like a puppy when someone is going fullbore ignorant dingus on a topic, be it politics or science or covid or vaccinations or whatever. But do you know what you or the other (typically conservative) posters who whine about being a meanie very rarely ever do? Refute any evidence-based argument I've made substantially on the merits.

And really, it's the same thing you're doing here. You don't say "wow vector2, all the evidence you've posted *does* indicate that rural, conservative, evangelical, eccentric etc is the most correlated subgroup with being antivax." It's simply "this guy said stuff about groups of people I like so he must be a dick." But anyway, peace. Enjoy your view from the cheap seats.





PS I love the catholics
View attachment 343784

Meh I mean I honestly don’t dislike you but I don’t think you are “right” as often as you think you are. You chose the adjectives. One can take five minutes to sift through your posts and come to the conclusion that you don’t differentiate most -possibly all -conservatives from the Uber crazy antivaxxers. You certainly haven’t posted anything that would make one think otherwise.

Again, this group smaller than you would likely admit and as far as i can tell varies wildly depending on the poll. But you can cherry pick a couple crazy tweets and add that to the “evidence”. you spend so much time googling these fools you could probably identify them with a Bristol stool chart.

Again, antivaccine mandate is not the same as antivaccine. It’s probably healthy to have a certain degree of skepticism as a general rule in life. Oh and probably most importantly White people that vote red aren’t the enemy.

The focus should probably be on engaging those still on the fence and not demonizing them.

I’m not that vested in this thread. Just found your adjectives intriguing… and par for your course.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Meh I mean I honestly don’t dislike you but I don’t think you are “right” as often as you think you are. You chose the adjectives. One can take five minutes to sift through your posts and come to the conclusion that you don’t differentiate most -possibly all -conservatives from the Uber crazy antivaxxers. You certainly haven’t posted anything that would make one think otherwise.

Again, this group smaller than you would likely admit and as far as i can tell varies wildly depending on the poll. But you can cherry pick a couple crazy tweets and add that to the “evidence”. you spend so much time googling these fools you could probably identify them with a Bristol stool chart.

Again, antivaccine mandate is not the same as antivaccine. It’s probably healthy to have a certain degree of skepticism as a general rule in life. Oh and probably most importantly White people that vote red aren’t the enemy.

The focus should probably be on engaging those still on the fence and not demonizing them.

I’m not that vested in this thread. Just found your adjectives intriguing… and par for your course.

skepticism is fine and healthy
problem with a lot of antivaxx circles, many with religious intonation, is not of skepticism but of actual misinformation

 

[vector2]

Meh I mean I honestly don’t dislike you but I don’t think you are “right” as often as you think you are. You chose the adjectives. One can take five minutes to sift through your posts and come to the conclusion that you don’t differentiate most -possibly all -conservatives from the Uber crazy antivaxxers. You certainly haven’t posted anything that would make one think otherwise.

Again, go back to my post. What did I say?

"Imo the essential oils / antivax thing sounds about par for this guy's life course"

I was talking about him and his quirks. None of his attributes, including being evangelical or being conservative, in isolation, make it a slam dunk case that he's an anti-vaxxer. There are a fair number of evangelical conservatives (including my in-laws) who are vaccinated. But when you read that article about Steffen and then spend 5 min on his FB page and website, it's plainly obvious the shoe fits and that those attributes in combination were, indeed, predictive.

In my opinion, in an effort to defend a particular subgroup that's getting a lot of scrutiny, I think you are still imagining that I've made overgeneralizations when in fact my posts were always about the combination of things which make Steffen appear at best a snake oil enabler and at worst quite unhinged. You want me to have said that 100% of all conservatives are loony anti-vaxxers, but the fact is I've just never said that.

 

[deleted87051]

Again, go back to my post. What did I say?

"Imo the essential oils / antivax thing sounds about par for this guy's life course"

I was talking about him and his quirks. None of his attributes, including being evangelical or being conservative, in isolation, make it a slam dunk case that he's an anti-vaxxer. There are a fair number of evangelical conservatives (including my in-laws) who are vaccinated. But when you read that article about Steffen and then spend 5 min on his FB page and website, it's plainly obvious the shoe fits and that those attributes in combination were, indeed, predictive.

In my opinion, in an effort to defend a particular subgroup that's getting a lot of scrutiny, I think you are still imagining that I've made overgeneralizations when in fact my posts were always about the combination of things which make Steffen appear at best a snake oil enabler and at worst quite unhinged. You want me to have said that 100% of all conservatives are loony anti-vaxxers, but the fact is I've just never said that.

I think he is unhinged. His fellow legislators agree, the reporter agrees, and that’s why he was in the news.

 

[epidural man]

 

[pgg]

The focus should probably be on engaging those still on the fence and not demonizing them.

The problem you're missing is that there really aren't a significant number of people "on the fence" any more.

There are some anti-vaxxers who say, as a rhetorical device in order to project the illusion of thoughtfulness, that they're "on the fence" ... but they're really not.

I spent a good year or so "engaging" people on a firearms forum I frequent, and they're unteachable.

This morning I looked in on a couple of their COVID threads and they're still posting straight up echo-chamber lies like "everybody knows the virus is an engineered bioweapon" and "CDC ran the gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab" and "Fauci gets royalties from his vaccine patents" and "Biden is a Xi puppet pushing vaccines to cull the world population of old people" and "Bill Gates wants to kill 20% of the world population to stop global warming" and "doctors are systemically lying about COVID numbers because they get paid more for COVID cases than _____" ... they use words like plandemic, Dr Fauxi, express disdain for actual expertise and education ...

All of these lies are things that have been carefully, competently, eloquently refuted 1000s of times by the media, by the CDC, by the government, by doctors, by ordinary people like us on forums or Facebook. And they still believe it.

At some point you've got to quit pretending that all opinions are equally valid, and deserving of a respectful listen. These aren't bad people. They're sincere. They might not even be dumb people - though if you look up "dumb" in a dictionary, you'll probably find words to the effect of "difficulty processing and understanding new information." So yeah, if I'm honest, I have to admit I think most of them are actually dumb. Regardless, they aren't people worth engaging any more.

Engage if you want, fight the good fight if you want, but these people will never get the vaccine or even admit the pandemic is real. At this point the focus should be on managing the pandemic as best we can, given the obstacles they put up. Because those obstacles aren't ever going to go away.

 

[deleted87051]

The problem you're missing is that there really aren't a significant number of people "on the fence" any more.

There are some anti-vaxxers who say, as a rhetorical device in order to project the illusion of thoughtfulness, that they're "on the fence" ... but they're really not.

I spent a good year or so "engaging" people on a firearms forum I frequent, and they're unteachable.

This morning I looked in on a couple of their COVID threads and they're still posting straight up echo-chamber lies like "everybody knows the virus is an engineered bioweapon" and "CDC ran the gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab" and "Fauci gets royalties from his vaccine patents" and "Biden is a Xi puppet pushing vaccines to cull the world population of old people" and "Bill Gates wants to kill 20% of the world population to stop global warming" and "doctors are systemically lying about COVID numbers because they get paid more for COVID cases than _____" ... they use words like plandemic, Dr Fauxi, express disdain for actual expertise and education ...

All of these lies are things that have been carefully, competently, eloquently refuted 1000s of times by the media, by the CDC, by the government, by doctors, by ordinary people like us on forums or Facebook. And they still believe it.

At some point you've got to quit pretending that all opinions are equally valid, and deserving of a respectful listen. These aren't bad people. They're sincere. They might not even be dumb people - though if you look up "dumb" in a dictionary, you'll probably find words to the effect of "difficulty processing and understanding new information." So yeah, if I'm honest, I have to admit I think most of them are actually dumb. Regardless, they aren't people worth engaging any more.

Engage if you want, fight the good fight if you want, but these people will never get the vaccine or even admit the pandemic is real. At this point the focus should be on managing the pandemic as best we can, given the obstacles they put up. Because those obstacles aren't ever going to go away.

They may be dumb but these people are evil….

This Doctor Spread False Information About COVID. She Still Kept Her Medical License

Simone Gold isn't alone. NPR found other physicians who retained their licenses despite spreading misinformation online and to the media about effective COVID-19 vaccines and unproven treatments.

www.npr.org

A doctor from Oregon who said mask-wearing could lead to carbon-dioxide poisoning got his medical license revoked

Asked whether he'd rather lose his license or wear a mask, Steven Arthur LaTulippe said he'd "sacrifice" his license "with no hesitation."

www.businessinsider.com

“Additionally, the report said LaTulippe told older and pediatric patients that mask-wearing was "very dangerous" for them and could exacerbate asthma or "cause or contribute to multiple serious health conditions" including strokes, collapsed lungs, and pneumonia. He also was said to have claimed mask-wearing could lead to carbon-dioxide poisoning, a falsehood debunked in the report.”

 

[pgg]

They may be dumb but these people are evil….

This Doctor Spread False Information About COVID. She Still Kept Her Medical License

Simone Gold isn't alone. NPR found other physicians who retained their licenses despite spreading misinformation online and to the media about effective COVID-19 vaccines and unproven treatments.

www.npr.org

A doctor from Oregon who said mask-wearing could lead to carbon-dioxide poisoning got his medical license revoked

Asked whether he'd rather lose his license or wear a mask, Steven Arthur LaTulippe said he'd "sacrifice" his license "with no hesitation."

www.businessinsider.com

“Additionally, the report said LaTulippe told older and pediatric patients that mask-wearing was "very dangerous" for them and could exacerbate asthma or "cause or contribute to multiple serious health conditions" including strokes, collapsed lungs, and pneumonia. He also was said to have claimed mask-wearing could lead to carbon-dioxide poisoning, a falsehood debunked in the report.”

Yep

Also, those same people practically worship the "America's Frontline Doctors" quacks. They're quick to dismiss anything CDC or the other 99% of physicians in the world say, but THOSE doctors speak the words they want to hear.

State medical boards should get busy revoking their licenses. One of the hallmarks of a profession like our is is commitment to self-policing. Or it used to be, anyway.

 

[robellis]

The problem you're missing is that there really aren't a significant number of people "on the fence" any more.

There are some anti-vaxxers who say, as a rhetorical device in order to project the illusion of thoughtfulness, that they're "on the fence" ... but they're really not.

I spent a good year or so "engaging" people on a firearms forum I frequent, and they're unteachable.

This morning I looked in on a couple of their COVID threads and they're still posting straight up echo-chamber lies like "everybody knows the virus is an engineered bioweapon" and "CDC ran the gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab" and "Fauci gets royalties from his vaccine patents" and "Biden is a Xi puppet pushing vaccines to cull the world population of old people" and "Bill Gates wants to kill 20% of the world population to stop global warming" and "doctors are systemically lying about COVID numbers because they get paid more for COVID cases than _____" ... they use words like plandemic, Dr Fauxi, express disdain for actual expertise and education ...

All of these lies are things that have been carefully, competently, eloquently refuted 1000s of times by the media, by the CDC, by the government, by doctors, by ordinary people like us on forums or Facebook. And they still believe it.

At some point you've got to quit pretending that all opinions are equally valid, and deserving of a respectful listen. These aren't bad people. They're sincere. They might not even be dumb people - though if you look up "dumb" in a dictionary, you'll probably find words to the effect of "difficulty processing and understanding new information." So yeah, if I'm honest, I have to admit I think most of them are actually dumb. Regardless, they aren't people worth engaging any more.

Engage if you want, fight the good fight if you want, but these people will never get the vaccine or even admit the pandemic is real. At this point the focus should be on managing the pandemic as best we can, given the obstacles they put up. Because those obstacles aren't ever going to go away.

Should we let them occupy ICU beds that could go to vaccinated people?

 

[pgg]

Should we let them occupy ICU beds that could go to vaccinated people?

If by "could go" you mean there's an empty bed, then definitely yes, we shouldn't hold beds open and deny care to anyone (for any reason) if they have a need and we have the ability.

If you mean the beds are full, then still probably yes, if the expected outcomes are comparable between the two. The only thing that gives me pause here is that a vaccinated ICU admit is probably much more likely to survive than an unvaccinated ICU admit. So it probably makes rational sense, from a triage perspective, to give the last ICU bed to the vaccinated guy rather than the unvaccinated guy.

Triaging insufficient resources always means denying optimal care to someone. It's the nature of triage. But triage should be based on maximal good for the maximum number of people. This isn't always clear cut but deciding who "deserves" care more than others is fraught with ethical issues.

I don't like slippery slope arguments in general, but rationing care based on who's got the most self-inflicted condition, based on the degree of reckless or stupid behavior ... is pretty slippery. Motorcycle riders, diabetics who can't be bothered to take their insulin, obese guys who get KFC delivered to their hospital rooms, drug users, jerks who get their faces broken in bar fights, on and on and on, if they get hurt or sick, we should prioritize their care based on an objective assessment of their need and prognosis.

Odds are, if you aren't a child with cancer, your current life-threatening disease or injury state is probably mostly your fault because of your suboptimal decisions. Let's not crack open the door to allowing value judgments on who gets access to care first.

 

[bjjmike69]

Should we let them occupy ICU beds that could go to vaccinated people?

vector2 would say no.

In all honesty I am early 30s, and every single person I spend the most time with is also not vaccinated. My girlfriend isn’t vaccinated. We are NOT anti-vax, we are totally open to getting the vaccine. I am “college-educated” in the sciences as the Democrats like to say, and would also consider myself smarter than the average person (the same of which goes for most of my friend group). I try to stay open-minded, read studies and papers (granted a lot are on arxiv) and consider myself well-read on both sides of the argument. All of us who haven’t been infected want to get infected to achieve natural immunity due to the death rate. I myself have had likely delta-variant COVID recently.

The fact is right now you can find arguments that are seemingly credible for both sides. When discussing natural immunity vs vaccine immunity the information gets even murkier.

So when it comes to a new class of vaccine that we largely do not have a lot of data on human results, the creator of the mRNA vaccine (albeit the very cooky type vector2 immediately thinks of when a person says they aren’t vaccinated) saying it’s dangerous, the terrible media on both sides, among other things, it’s my right to say: “I want to wait a little bit longer and make sure it is safe.” Granted, the mRNA creator bit may be fake news, as I do not know all of his history.

If you all want the type of people like me to get vaccinated, then do not use vector2 as your model for social interaction. Demonizing a group of people and being a prick only pushes them away. Stop making assumptions about how educated someone is, what their political background is, and which religion they consider to be apart of and treat them like an actual person that may be misinformed.

 

[pgg]

All of us who haven’t been infected want to get infected to achieve natural immunity due to the death rate.

This ... doesn't surprise me in the least.



Run along now, go play oookie mouth.