This is not being started to end in a big fight.

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faith2

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If carribean schools are not as good as american schools how come I only find success stories? I ask this because I have peers that could not get into medical school here due to gpa, mcat, lor's, lack of health related experience whatever, and they ask me if they should go to a carrib school, and I always say no. However this answer is based on everyone else saying how bad it is. I have never heard of a failure story. Please enlighten me, so that I can be more knowledgable. A failure story to me is someone who never matched, passed the steps, failed or was kicked out of school.

Thank You

Please keep in mind we are all professionals with a common goal...Becoming a doctor

GO ARMY!!!!!
ACCEPTED 2014 UCF
 
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well you never hear failure stories from actual people that failed is because they're too emberrased to tell them or are too down to talk about it, the schools will never mention this because that's bad publicity. however, if you look at the usmle pass rates you'll see they're much lower and the same thing goes for match rates. there was an article on this forum posted by someone that was published in a Florida Online Newspaper that talked about how some people fail to match or succeed as doctors after graduating from these schools. They specifically talked about Ross. There are a ton of failure stories out there it's just that you have to actively look for them, people don't like to talk about failures.
 
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Thank you, and I am sorry to hear about your brother and his family. I did my MS at barry and took longer to apply because I wanted a stronger application, I even took the MCAT 3 times unitl I finally got a score i was confortable with applying, and all the while people told me apply to Carrib and I refused based on information that I heard. I hope this thread helps people and not hurt anybody. I can also show them this thread to show that we only hear about success stories, but unfortunately there are failure stories as well.
 
OMG!!!!! You are still required to pay back the loans even if you can not get the career you took the loans for?
 
You have to pay back your loans no matter what program of study you borrowed them for, and not matter what job you end up with. This is also true for Ivy League art and philosophy majors.
 
i know but how can you be expected to pay it back if you do not have the means? Help me please I am looking for the article that people are referring to.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

You can't just not pay your loan back. You'll have to get a job of some sort, and pay the loan off.

Selection bias.

Anyway, as RJ said, you dont hear about the un-success stories, because for whatever reason, those people dont tell them. Maybe theyre embarrased... maybe they move on, and dont hang around the SDN talking about "what-ifs".... Maybe theres no reason to talk about it, because even if you try to keep others from falling into the same mess, nobody is going to listen (Ive tried) ... because everyone knows the SGU student who got into neurosurgery, or the Saba student who's a dermatology resident now.



If you want un-success stories, talk to about 7/10 of my class.
 
i know but how can you be expected to pay it back if you do not have the means? Help me please I am looking for the article that people are referring to.

Ok, I'll throw you a bone. Btw, I just saw Inglorious Basterds. It's a good but not great movie. Not sure what all the hype was about.

Investigators want to know if the quality of offshore medical schools justifies the cost

Ross University School of Medicine may be the biggest medical school you've never heard of.

For decades, the school on the Caribbean island of Dominica has been accepting U.S. students whose poor test scores make it impossible for them to get into medical schools in the States.

And though Ross is 1,500 miles from the mainland, U.S. residents who attend the school, and about two dozen other offshore medical schools, qualify for federal student loans.

That has meant more than $150 million a year in government-guaranteed aid for Ross, which has about 3,500 students, double the biggest U.S. medical school.

Ross and other foreign medical schools say they're responding to U.S. demand for new doctors as the population ages.

And there's no question that these schools have produced thousands of practicing physicians. There are more than 80 Ross graduates in the Tampa Bay area alone.

But federal regulators are taking a closer look at evidence suggesting taxpayers and students may be getting shortchanged by foreign medical schools.

• At Ross, fewer than one-third of the students finish in four years, compared to nearly 100 percent at U.S. medical schools.

• Since Ross, like other Caribbean medical schools, doesn't have a teaching hospital, it pays hospitals stateside for students' clinical training, with wide variations in quality.

• Students of foreign medical schools like Ross graduate with higher average debt, $235,000 compared to the average $158,000 owed by graduates of U.S. medical schools, according to an August report to Congress by regulators.

• About 20 percent of Ross graduates fail to land a residency, the key to a license to practice in the United States. If they cannot pay their student debts, taxpayers are left holding the bag.

Steven Moxley, a former Navy corpsman, graduated from Ross in 2005 but can't get a residency due to low test scores. Now 54, with $250,000 in unpaid loans, Moxley is working construction jobs in the Washington, D.C., area and renting a room from his son.

"I'm living hand-to-mouth," he said. "I've got debt out the ying-yang."

Started in a motel

Robert Ross, a commodities trader in New York, opened his medical school in 1978 in a motel in Dominica's capital at the suggestion of an employee whose son couldn't get into medical training in the States. By 2000, Ross had sold majority interest in both the medical school and an affiliated veterinary school in St. Kitts to a group of New York investors. Three years later, both schools were acquired by DeVry for $310 million.

Ross is the only offshore medical school owned by a publicly traded corporation, which must disclose more financial data than privately owned schools.

Last year, DeVry, better known for its tech training schools, reported $165.7 million in net income after taxes. But the company also reported an additional $140 million in tax-free income from the Ross operations.

In order to qualify for federal student loans, schools must report how many students default on their debt over the two years immediately after leaving school.

Ross says less than one percent of its medical students fail to pay their loans during this time frame, but critics question how meaningful that is.

"Lots of schools have developed very sophisticated hand-holding techniques to help their graduates or dropouts get through the two-year window without defaulting," said Barmak Nassirian, spokesman for the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. "The student can be making $5 a month payments and the school can come out looking fabulous."

Ross graduate Robb Holley, a pediatrician who is interim director of newborn medicine at Tampa General Hospital, expects to have no problem paying off his $200,000 in school loans but is not in a hurry.

"I could do it earlier, but I just bought a house," the 41-year-old Tampa native said.

The situation is different for Amer Alata, who got his M.D. from Ross in 2007, then quickly washed out of an internal medicine residency — and his prospects of becoming a physician. Now saddled with $470,000 in debt, he's teaching part-time but has never been able to afford a payment, making him one of Ross' official defaults.

"I'm in a state of paralysis," said Alata, 30, who lives outside Detroit. "The worst part is that I know I am not alone."

A spokeswoman for Ross, which has offices in North Brunswick, N.J., declined to discuss Alata's case but defended the institution's "high-quality education and successful student outcomes, comparable with U.S. medical schools."

"At a time when our country is in desperate need of quality physicians, they will help fulfill the unmet need and make important contributions to society," said Ross' Rebekah Herbison.

The curriculum

No one disputes that it's easier to get into Ross than a U.S. medical school. Ross accepts scores on the MCAT, the standardized test all medical school applicants must take, as low as 17, compared to an average of nearly 31 at U.S. medical schools.

Like all medical schools, Ross divides its four-year program into a basic science curriculum followed by hands-on clinical experience. But U.S. medical students usually spend two years in the classroom followed by two years in a teaching hospital on the same campus.

Ross students have 16 straight months of concentrated coursework on Dominica, followed by a fifth semester of intense test preparation in Miami or Saginaw, Mich. Once students pass Step 1 of the U.S. Medical Licensing Exam, they're assigned to two years of clinical rotations in hospitals around the country that have contracts with Ross.

Like U.S. medical students, once Ross enrollees complete their clinicals and pass another standardized exam, they graduate with an M.D. degree, then go on to post-graduate residency training before becoming a licensed physician.

Many Ross students don't make it that far. Even after six years, only 66 percent of entering students graduate.

Some students bail within days of arriving on Dominica, where there is little shopping and few restaurants. Others spend extra time on the remote island, repeating failed courses and running up debt. Ashley Sullivan, who had a 4.0 GPA during her two years at Ross, said one classmate was allowed to repeat three semesters he had failed. "He's a dear friend, but I'm not sure I'd want him taking care of me," she said.

Sullivan lost faith in her physician-educators at Ross after they misdiagnosed her swollen arm as an allergic reaction. When she returned home to Houston, doctors there discovered she had a massive blood clot. Once recovered, Sullivan returned to Dominica only to learn that Ross was reneging on a promise that she could do her clinical rotation in a Houston hospital not officially affiliated with Ross.

"My confidence in Ross had been obliterated and so I left," she said.

Now $100,000 in debt, Sullivan, 29, is working in management consulting for oil and gas companies.

"I realized I wouldn't have been proud of myself if I graduated from Ross," said Sullivan, whose parents are helping with her loan repayments, keeping her out of the default category. "It was a horrible experience."

Hospital placement

After finishing their coursework and passing the USMLE Step 1 exam, Ross students vie for clinical rotations at more than 70 locations nationwide that contract with the school.

Michael Rendon, registrar at Ross from 2006 to 2007, said finding suitable clinical training sites was always a challenge.

"Clinicals is the school's Achilles' heel," said Rendon, now registrar at Texas A&M University at Corpus Christi. "There are simply not enough sites, and that problem is not going to go away anytime soon."

Anand Dasrath, 52, says he was forced out of Ross because of the shortage of clinical sites. A pharmacist from New York City, Dasrath finished his studies on Dominica with nearly a 3.0 GPA, but was told he flunked the semester in Miami, though he never received a formal grade.

Back working as a hospital pharmacist, Dasrath, who took on about $60,000 in loans for school, is suing Ross for age discrimination and breach of contract. His lawyer, Salvatore Compaccia, said, "Ross takes your money, then when it's time to place you in a hospital, they create an excuse to get rid of you."

A crisis arose in February when two New York hospitals where Ross had paid for 135 training slots closed, sending students scrambling. Graduates say there are always last-minute scheduling changes that can mean cross-country relocations and sites with widely disparate opportunities.

Students doing clinicals in the States continue paying tuition to Ross, which at more than $30,000 a year is comparable to that at private U.S. medical schools. Yet Ross students say they have virtually no contact with the school's faculty. That means they're on their own if problems arise.

Alata, the Detroit-area graduate, said he had a six-week psychiatry rotation supervised by a surgeon. "He gave me an assignment on cardiovascular disorders," Alata said. "I never had the opportunity to interview a psychiatric patient. There was no clinical experience whatsoever."

During training in Miami, Alata, who speaks no Spanish, was unable to communicate with most of the patients.

"Ross is supposed to monitor those sites, but in two years, I never saw anybody come to visit or ask me about them," he said.

Some students say they thrived despite the loose structure. Holley, the TGH pediatrician, said he sought out the toughest rotations and got valuable experience at his assignments.

"The patients I saw in New York City were from all over the world, and I saw all kinds of diseases I would not see in Tampa," he said. "I'm really glad I did it. It made for a well-rounded experience."

Dr. Mamatha Geddam, who recently joined a family medicine practice in St. Petersburg, also had all her Ross rotations in New York City. She said the students helped each other through.

"It would have been helpful to have an academic adviser because we were quite a big herd," she said. "But we learned from whoever had done it before."

Not ready for residency

Alata said he received "very high evaluations'' from supervisors during his clinical rotations in Miami, New York and Chicago and passed his mandatory USMLE Step 2 exam.

But three weeks into a residency in internal medicine and pediatrics at Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine, Alata was suspended from all clinical activities because of poor performance. A few months later he voluntarily withdrew.

"Once you start your residency, you find out how little you know," Alata said. "It was a complete shock when I sat down with the dean and she said I should go back to Ross and tell them how inadequate my training was."

Officials at the Virginia college declined to comment.

Directors of residency programs at the University of Florida College of Medicine in Jacksonville and Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg, both of which have accepted Ross graduates, said they've seen these students succeed.

"Once they're here, we're in training mode and they do fine," said Dr. David Parrish, head of family practice residency at Bayfront, which has three Ross grads.

But Dr. Peter Fabri, former dean of graduate medical education at USF College of Medicine, said his school has had a different experience.

"The quality of clinical education Ross students get is very, very unpredictable," said Fabri, a professor of surgery who retired as dean in September. "We've had some Ross students whom I'm told are superb, but we've also had a number from Ross who ended up being dismissed because they just didn't have it. And it's rare that any residents are dismissed."

More schools coming

Fabri, who has served on national commissions on graduate medical education, said students from foreign medical schools are going to be at a growing disadvantage.

Five new U.S. medical schools, including the University of Central Florida and Florida International University, have begun enrolling students and four more schools are in the permitting process. Those new graduates will make it tougher to get residency slots, which have not increased.

"I have not encouraged our program directors to take students from Caribbean schools," Fabri said. "And now that the competition is greater, I'm telling them to be very, very thoughtful."

In a report to Congress in August, the group that accredits offshore medical colleges recommended that the schools raise standards and improve reporting on everything from test scores to graduation rates to total cost.

Rendon, the former Ross registrar, said he agrees with the need to stiffen entrance requirements.

"We want doctors but we can't give that kind of money to everyone who's chasing a dream of being an M.D.," he said. "We need to be a little bit more discriminating about who those tax dollars go to."

Times researcher Shirl Kennedy contributed to this report. Kris Hundley can be reached at [email protected] or (727) 892-2996.

FAST FACTS

Ross University School of Medicine

For-profit, foreign medical school in Dominica (also has sister veterinary school in St. Kitts)

Founded: 1978

Owner: DeVry Inc. (acquired in 2003 for $310 million)

Enrollment: about 3,500

Student profile: 56 percent male, most U.S. residents, average age 27 (two years older than U.S. medical students)

Tuition: More than $30,000 per year

Percent of revenue from federal student loans: 81 percent

Four-year graduation rate: 30.6 percent

Six-year graduation rate: 66 percent

Percent of graduates who secure residency training: 80 percent (2006-07)

Source: Corporate financial filing August 2009 and 2008 Ross survey​
 
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four year graduation rate 30.6percent wow..... can't believe this...


And that stat might be the % that graduated.... and did so in 4 years. It may not be the "intention to treat"-type statistic........ meaning the % of those who started at Ross AND graduated in 4 years is probably even LESS. There is a huge % that doesn't graduate at all.

I'm not not saying that it's a bad thing that the attrition rate is so high. It's not a bad thing that the weakest students are failed out, or that some people overestimated their ability to live on a barely inhabitable island. We should be happy that these schools only allow the "best" to get an MD.

Its an American mentality that you get to finish what you started, regardless of ability and performance. Nearly every American med student will graduate, nearly everyone will pass the Step1, CK and CS, nearly everyone will pass the Boards. In the UK apparently only about 30% of physicians pass the MRCP, and they are fine with that...... aaaaaaaaanyyway.

My point is, that its a good thing that the sudden-death competition in the Caribbean is so fierce. AND, applicants need to realize that just because you get into a Carib med school doesnt mean that you'll get an MD. It is highly likely that you will not graduate, for whatever reason. So, only go to the Carib if you are sure that you can hack it, and that you can write off a number of years of your life if you dont.
 
First of all, I think it's hard to compare these stats.
I can only speak to my experiences.
I'm not surprised at the 1/3 grad in 4 yrs stat. Carib students commonly take time off to review, and more commonly may have to sit while waiting for a clinical spot to open. I've always heard ross had trouble with clinical placement, they are simply too big and perhaps too cheap.
The idea that a school wants to wash out people is absurd. They want all students to advance, continue their revenue stream, then graduate and train successfully to make the school look better.
It was my experience that people who were ill prepared for the rigor of med school simply failed out in the first few semesters. Sometimes spectacularly quickly. I wopuld say that after the 1st semster at AUC we lost 15-20 students, many transfered to SABA. After that we had further attrition of fewer than 10 people over the next 3 semesters.
I know of only one student who finished basic sciences who did not complete an MD and go onto residency.
 
It's an article so everything stated must be taken with a grain of salt. Ross has a high attrition, but the overall 6 year graduation is around 66% and 80% of those that graduate get a res. so the probability of a random first semester student finishing and getting a residency is around 53%.

However the point in the article about the 52 year old being 'forced out' of the school is quite concerning.
 
I never thought of it like that...maybe it is good for a below average student to fail out soon saves them from future heartbreak...The graduation rate is good when you follow that logic. I mean if they take low performing students, and after 4 years they still can not cut it then maybe they should not graduate..I still feel bad about the money they owe that is alot if you can not afford it.🙁
 
And that stat might be the % that graduated.... and did so in 4 years. It may not be the "intention to treat"-type statistic........ meaning the % of those who started at Ross AND graduated in 4 years is probably even LESS. There is a huge % that doesn't graduate at all.

I'm not not saying that it's a bad thing that the attrition rate is so high. It's not a bad thing that the weakest students are failed out, or that some people overestimated their ability to live on a barely inhabitable island. We should be happy that these schools only allow the "best" to get an MD.

Its an American mentality that you get to finish what you started, regardless of ability and performance. Nearly every American med student will graduate, nearly everyone will pass the Step1, CK and CS, nearly everyone will pass the Boards. In the UK apparently only about 30% of physicians pass the MRCP, and they are fine with that...... aaaaaaaaanyyway.

My point is, that its a good thing that the sudden-death competition in the Caribbean is so fierce. AND, applicants need to realize that just because you get into a Carib med school doesnt mean that you'll get an MD. It is highly likely that you will not graduate, for whatever reason. So, only go to the Carib if you are sure that you can hack it, and that you can write off a number of years of your life if you dont.

HJ. This is the first time you and I agree on something!!! Strong post.
 
Its an American mentality that you get to finish what you started, regardless of ability and performance. Nearly every American med student will graduate, nearly everyone will pass the Step1, CK and CS, nearly everyone will pass the Boards. In the UK apparently only about 30% of physicians pass the MRCP, and they are fine with that...... aaaaaaaaanyyway.

It's not a mentality that you "get to finish what you started, regardless of ability and performance" - every american medical student is held to a very high standard of performance.

The difference is where you decide you are going to act as "the gatekeeper" - american medical schools decided that they would let the admissions process act as the primary gatekeeper. If you get past the rigorous admissions standards, then there are high odds you will be a strong enough student to make it through the rest of the way.

The carib schools (which are, non-coincidentally, for profit) don't use admissions as the gatekeeper, choosing to let the schoolwork itself serve that role.

My argument would be that this is unfair to the students. It puts them deep in debt while chasing a pipedream.
 
It's not a mentality that you "get to finish what you started, regardless of ability and performance" - every american medical student is held to a very high standard of performance.

The difference is where you decide you are going to act as "the gatekeeper" - american medical schools decided that they would let the admissions process act as the primary gatekeeper. If you get past the rigorous admissions standards, then there are high odds you will be a strong enough student to make it through the rest of the way.

The carib schools (which are, non-coincidentally, for profit) don't use admissions as the gatekeeper, choosing to let the schoolwork itself serve that role.

My argument would be that this is unfair to the students. It puts them deep in debt while chasing a pipedream
.

Good points....

But I do think that we have a sense of entitlement, demonstrated in the notion that the "Carib system" is unfair because it closes the gate on you after youre 200K in debt..... I'm just saying that it's just perspective...

Both are fair, and both are unfair.

The Carib system is unfair because it locks the gate when youve already invested time and money.

The American system is unfair because it locks the gate by using undergrad GPA and MCATs as a surrogate for USMLE scores.

I suppose I'm fortunate that during my interview for Caribbean med school, the interviewer told me exactly what you said - that they take students who genuinely think they can hack medical school, and let the coursework be the judge. So, I was sure of what I was up against.

The Carib system would be less "unfair" if people knew what they were getting themselves into, if they knew that they might be chasing a pipedream, and that its going to cost more time and money than the schools will admit to.... and thats why I stay on my soapbox.
 
Yes i agree about the two systems and the "unfairness" and I guess we should take resposibility for our actions as adults. I always said that if I could not get into a MD or DO school I would not go to Carib because based on what everyone was saying I was scared. I am a good student and I will work hard, but I am not a gambler ( I do not even play lotto) so that risk was not for me. I did a special masters program, and I remember two opf my peers one got good grades, but did not understand the material she had photographic memory. The other peer grades were not good to her needing a social life. They both took the MCAT again after we graduated and neither did better. They both applied and got into ROSS, and I rember that they said the first exams were easy. i keep asking about the boards and did they take them and I get no answer since they are class of 2012. I hope they do make it because they are already in debt.
 
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The point of a caribbean school is to accept those students who fell short of being admitted to US MD programs but would still (a) perform admirably in their coursework/on all pertinent exams and (b) still make competent physicians one day. It is up to the individual student to assess why they weren't accepted to a US MD program (whether it be low GPA, low MCAT, lack of research/volunteer experience, poor interviewing skills) and determine whether those factors have deservedly kept them out of medical school or not.

With that in mind, I don't believe that the schools are to blame for giving students a false impression of their capabilities - in fact the whole problem is that schools (whether they be US MD or Caribbean MD) only have very superficial measures of a student's capabilities.

In short, blame the students themselves for misjudging their aptitude and failing.
 
Along the same line... I was looking at law school admissions a while ago (for no good reason) and saw that in some schools you can specifically request whether you want them to evaluate your application based on traditional/academic standards, or on experience/motivation. I think thats a "fair" way of doing things. Experience and motivation can totally overwrite a poor undergrad record, in terms of learning, and doing well in med school.
 
Ok HJ, now we disagree again. A person's experiences/motivations do not correlate with success in med school. I don't care if this person has claimed to cure cancer through the culinary arts. If the person's GPA is <3.0 and has an MCAT <20, then it is very unlikely that s/he will be successful in passing the boards (Step I, II), or the shelf exams, etc. Sure, I think a person who has GPA (3.2-3.5) or MCAT (26-30) with good experiences, but that was screened out of US schools for one reason or another could probably hack it. But, schools like Ross don't screen so you let the crappers in through the front door and when they can't hack it you kick them out the back door. That shouldn't sit right with anyone. The process should be two fold:

1- Carib schools should start to screen their applicants better.

2- Some applicants should just recognize that their desire to become a doc is a hopeless pipe dream and should pursue something else..... well, with that kind of GPA/MCAT maybe they should just buy a bullet and rent a gun. Whatever, it may be they should definitely not gain acceptance to medical school, and probably shouldn't pro-create either. :laugh:

SD out


First bolded point - For some students, OK - thats a statistical correlation. And is it even a validated one, or did you make it up?

For other students, I dont care what GPA you got from your undegrad calculus and ecology classes... that doesnt correlate with pharmacology and physiology classes. My second semester of General Biology was mostly zoology and ecology. What has that got to do with medicine? Id say that motivation and interest in Medicine (specifically) will take you farther than your 3.7 GPA in chemistry.

Second bolded point - Why? Carib schools have set the screening bar lower to intentionally catch the marginal students and give them a "chance". As we said above, the "gatekeeper" is not the admissions committee.... its either the "Comp" or the Step1. Whats wrong with the Step1 as a gatekeeper?
 
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....24 MCAT, 3.2GPA. Do you really think those stats are anywhere near where they should be......!!

I think you're missing the point of why Caribbean medical schools exist in the first place. Obviously it is a profit driven industry, as the monetary yield of any particular Caribbean medical school is based purely on tuition. There are no endowments in the form of grants, gifts, or donations, and affiliations with hospitals are based purely on contracts, which can be bought out to the highest bitter. Coincidentally, the school is not the only institution that stands to profit.

Furthermore, the admission standards at Caribbean medical schools were not traditionally designed for outstanding or stellar students, and they can range dramatically as the quality of the applicant pool fluctuates. In fact the admission standards of any medical school are not written in stone, as they are based on who is actually applying. For example, the averages for some DO programs as recently as 5 years ago were not that much different than the numbers you are quoting today. Therefore, as far as Caribbean schools are concerned, the concept is actually quite simple. Take the so called "US rejects", and give them the opportunity to study medicine. Thousands have become successful physicians, licensed, and practicing in the US, and utlimately that is all that should matter.

I can tell you that the program at Ross is very rigorous and the attrition rate is quite high, but it would only be a diploma mill if they took your money and simply pushed you along. You either sink or swim, and you find out very quickly if you're drowning. At the end of 1st semester quite a few people pack up and go home with the new found revelation that medicine is not for them. Ultimately it is not the integrity of Ross that is in question, or the pursuit of profit, but whether such an experiment should be funded by federal aid.
 
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I am reading through each of the points on both sides, and I agree with each of you for different reason. Another grad peer of mines just informed he is considering going to the Carib I hope he is reading all of this and making an informed decision.
 
I do realize the purpose of carib schools. I simply disapprove of any school that matriculates any students under the pretenses that they will likely fail out and be stuck with debt. You won't convince me that it is "good business."
In all the 30 yrs carib schools have been around you think that they would have a pretty good idea of what makes a solid student and what doesn't. If they were truly invested in their students they would somehow research why some students fail out and others don't and implement some changes to facilitate success. Instead, they drive up their class sizes, the number of classes/yr, and tuition to make the almighty $$. It's the students (ya know the ones that actually stay there and have a chance) that should be outraged. Why do you think it is that program directors are wary of carib students when selecting their residents? Its 2-fold, variably shotty clinical exposures during 3rd and 4th year doesn't lead to the most outstanding interns (DO schools run into this same problem btw) and the fact that PDs have caught on to how carib schools are run and simply put they want nothing to do with diploma mills. (straight from the words of PD at a well known program from a decent, Top 50 school.) It really is unfortunate though. All it would take is some change (OMG I sound like Obama......forgive me). If carib schools would even be willing to sacrifice a relatively small amount of $$, make some changes (the ones I listed in my above post) the could better their reputations and actually crank out some students that have a chance of landing respectable residency positions. Instead, they choose the $$$, and reputation means jack squat to them as long as they get your tuition payment each semester.

With all due respect your post is guilty of some myths and incorrect assumptions. First and foremost if you understand the niche that Caribbean medical schools occupy and serve then you should understand that students matriculating at these schools are in general, at least on paper, weaker than their US counterparts. There is no escaping this fact, and in essence that is essentially the point; the "US rejects" as we are at times referred to, are given a shot, opportunity, a break, or the established means in order to prove that the calculated conclusions are incorrect. As "WittyUsername" points out, honest self-assessment is key, or aka accountability. Therefore, the reason why some students fail out and others don't, I think is blatantly obvious, and the success of thousands of graduates justifies the means to an end.

Furthermore, as I mentioned in my previous post, the strength of the applicant pool dictates the stringency of the admission process, and the disparity between students facilitates the assumption that perhaps there is a plot or conspiracy to intentionally seek out or prey on students who will serve as fodder to feed, and satisfy some menacing corporate machine. Therefore, I do understand your concern, as some students have absolutely no business being in medical school, and within a matriculating class of 350+ surely you will find some who are doomed from the very start. But I would also argue that on the basis of more intangible qualities or lack thereof, there are probably many medical students in the US who don't belong in medical school either.

Nevertheless, as long as Caribbean medical schools, such as Ross, do not circumvent or override within reason the necessary process required to educate medical students, and remain true to the uncompromising and demanding tenants of medical education, at the very least such programs cannot be accused of being diploma mills. Hence, getting in might be easy, but getting out is a whole different story. In relation to your assumptions on the inner thoughts of program directors and how they perceive Caribbean medical school students, I can only say that it is a matter of preference, experience, opinion, and even at times uninformed bias, as we are only human. Therefore, to generalize residency program directors as a wary and a knee-jerk reaction bunch in response to Caribbean medical schools, subjugates the naïve to the unfortunate impression that perhaps Caribbean medical schools exist in some vacuum or alter universe.

Of course nothing could be further from the truth as Caribbean medical education is well entrenched and integrated into the US medical education system. Therefore, it is quite common to find Caribbean medical students rubbing elbows with their US counterparts, especially during 4th year electives. For example, many hospitals in the NYC area not only serve as teaching hospitals for many of the local medical schools, but they also have contractual affiliations with Caribbean medical schools, and therefore allow these students to participate in elective rotations. In relation to core rotations I will agree that there is a much greater variability, but this is not so much a function of Caribbean schools per se, as it is more the changeability of hospitals and clinics accredited by the ACGME. Furthermore, such inconsistency in accreditation further impacts different residency programs, especially in the primary care specialties, hence the reason why some programs are better than others.

Nevertheless as I digress, you should refrain from the general assumption that PDs are hard-pressed to choose Caribbean grads as their residents, as such an assumption is simply incorrect. Furthermore, in relation to the anecdotal evidence of "my neighborhood friendly program director told me so", you will be happy to hear that I have been in contact with approximately 20 program directors over the course of my interview season. Respectable programs mind you, and I promise you, even by your standards, as I must admit that all interviews were attained on my own merit. Furthermore, as this forum often surrenders to the remitting myth that the rest of the world may give a damn that there may actually exist a hierarchal order among Caribbean medical schools, I can tell you that the reputation of my school played no part, and as you might predict, the administrative help was simply non-existent.

Nonetheless, the assumption that Caribbean medical school graduates are marginalized or treated as a second class citizens is simply not true, as such dealings would almost border on the unethical. Furthermore, I would argue that those of us who exude the inferiority of such a pre-conceived notion quickly instill doubt in others, as potentially, all things being equal, there is no greater liability than a prospective resident with a self-deprecating and insecure nature, especially if he or she is a Caribbean medical school graduate.
 
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I do realize the purpose of carib schools. I simply disapprove of any school that matriculates any students under the pretenses that they will likely fail out and be stuck with debt. You won't convince me that it is "good business."
In all the 30 yrs carib schools have been around you think that they would have a pretty good idea of what makes a solid student and what doesn't. If they were truly invested in their students they would somehow research why some students fail out and others don't and implement some changes to facilitate success. Instead, they drive up their class sizes, the number of classes/yr, and tuition to make the almighty $$. It's the students (ya know the ones that actually stay there and have a chance) that should be outraged. Why do you think it is that program directors are wary of carib students when selecting their residents? Its 2-fold, variably shotty clinical exposures during 3rd and 4th year doesn't lead to the most outstanding interns (DO schools run into this same problem btw) and the fact that PDs have caught on to how carib schools are run and simply put they want nothing to do with diploma mills. (straight from the words of PD at a well known program from a decent, Top 50 school.) It really is unfortunate though. All it would take is some change (OMG I sound like Obama......forgive me). If carib schools would even be willing to sacrifice a relatively small amount of $$, make some changes (the ones I listed in my above post) the could better their reputations and actually crank out some students that have a chance of landing respectable residency positions. Instead, they choose the $$$, and reputation means jack squat to them as long as they get your tuition payment each semester.

Youre right... its a rotten, profitable, unfair, very dishonest business. It survives on not fully disclosing the risks. Fewer people would go for it if they knew the likelihood of a poor outcome.

But they're still in business, partly because the benefits for some outweigh the risks for many.
 
Very nice post PathLessTrvld

Lots of Carib bashing goes on here -- once you've been here for awhile you'll become accustomed to it, and either become numb or simply give up.

First, I think we need to separate the "big 4" from the rest. There is no question that the less established schools are much more problematic -- you can see the thread on Windsor here.

I have no problem with the Carib schools offering education to those students who fail to obtain a spot in a US/Canadian school as long as:

1. They are honest about their matriculation/graduation rates. They should even show you, based upon your MCAT/GPA/rest of your application, what your chances of graduating are. Thus, you would know going in what your chances are.

2. They are honest about the debt, and what it represents if you fail out.

3. They truly can deliver the clinical rotations offered.

I worry that this is not true. As a Carib student (and it doesn't matter which school), I'd love to know how honestly they presented what they offer.
 
Does anyone know the name of the Carib school that in 2006 did not have a graduating class the first graduating class should have been 2007,08,or 09 please?

Thank you
 
Ok HJ, now we disagree again. A person's experiences/motivations do not correlate with success in med school. I don't care if this person has claimed to cure cancer through the culinary arts. If the person's GPA is <3.0 and has an MCAT <20, then it is very unlikely that s/he will be successful in passing the boards (Step I, II), or the shelf exams, etc. Sure, I think a person who has GPA (3.2-3.5) or MCAT (26-30) with good experiences, but that was screened out of US schools for one reason or another could probably hack it. But, schools like Ross don't screen so you let the crappers in through the front door and when they can't hack it you kick them out the back door. That shouldn't sit right with anyone. The process should be two fold:

1- Carib schools should start to screen their applicants better.

2- Some applicants should just recognize that their desire to become a doc is a hopeless pipe dream and should pursue something else..... well, with that kind of GPA/MCAT maybe they should just buy a bullet and rent a gun. Whatever, it may be they should definitely not gain acceptance to medical school, and probably shouldn't pro-create either. :laugh:

SD out

ScootDoc...

I agree with a lot of things that have been said thus far. I think I know your brother actually...or, to prove your point even more, I know a guy who has a story like this with 3 kids and a wife (2 girls and one boy who was born during the step?)

I heard the hardest thing about US med school was getting in. I believe the hardest thing about Caribbean med school is staying in. Ross had an absolutely aweful attrition rate. I saw almost 100 students out of 420 repeat 1st semster, fail out, or leave. It is sickening. I saw people who spent hundred's of thousands of dollars and couldn't pass the comp,. Step 1, and even in one aweful case, pass Step 2 CK. These students have nothing to show for their time, money, and heartache.

But on the other hand, I have seen students who had a 17MCAT get a 225 on Step1 and match in surgery. I have seen Ross students with a 2.3 GPA in basic sciences score 215+ on their boards. I know a student who scored 260+ and one with a 270+.

My stats before med school: (If the person's GPA is <3.0 and has an MCAT <20, then it is very unlikely that s/he will be successful in passing the boards (Step I, II), or the shelf exams, etc)

GPA - 2.9
MCAT -19M (one try)

I have now passed all of my board exams (and not barely) on the first attempt, and I had 14 interviews (with a handful of them being University programs), after only applying to 35 places. I went through the process w/o repeating, failing out, etc. I am not matching into Neurosurgery, but I am very pleased with how things have worked out.

Now... what I have realized over the past 4 years is that Ross is a crap-shoot. You are rolling the dice. But if you realize your capabilities, and know what you are capable of, then maybe it is not as big of a risk as you think. But if you know you fully applied yourself in undergrad and on the MCAT and you came up short, then re-evaluate your decision. Ross is not going to spoon-feed you, but if you come out alive, you will thrive in medicine b/c you did it on your own.

If I had a chance to go to a US allopathic med school, I would have taken the opportunity in a heartbeat, but these were the cards I was dealt.

So, with every success story there is a failure story, and vice-versa.

But only the student can control what happens to them.
 
Lots of Carib bashing goes on here -- once you've been here for awhile you'll become accustomed to it, and either become numb or simply give up.

1. They are honest about their matriculation/graduation rates. They should even show you, based upon your MCAT/GPA/rest of your application, what your chances of graduating are. Thus, you would know going in what your chances are.

.

From experience I can tell you that such information is not officially disclosed. But many students entering Caribbean medical schools are aware of the unofficially pending reality that attrition rates are quite high. Furthermore, based on passive observation of friends and peers, including myself, ironically as it appears, the people who you expect to make it, sometimes fail out, and those who you wouldn't give a shot in the dark, actually make it. This is of course based on people's unexpected willingness to disclose their undergrad GPA and MCAT scores, no matter how good or bad those numbers may be. Therefore, if any Caribbean medical school is actually gathering data on the correlation between one's academic credentials and ultimate success rate, I suspect that there may be some ambiguity in the final results. Contrary to the accepted status quo, it would actually be incorrect to assume that those students who fail out or drop out are all historically poor students with low MCAT scores. Judging from Brob311's post, it appears that I am not the only one who has observed this phenomenon.

Furthermore, I believe that the administrative help that exists in US medical schools contributes greatly towards the success of their students, and in the Caribbean such services are weak and at times non-existent. Whether we are talking about helping students with academic difficulty, finding the best clinical rotations possible, or simply placing graduates into residencies of their choice, these are the type of services that either do not exist in the Caribbean or have very weak leverage. Therefore, being a Caribbean medical student can be a very personal and lonely experience, but on the flipside, the circumstances of such an unpredictable environment, often invigorate, cultivate, and nurture one's resourcefulness, creativity, and strength of character.

In relation to the incessant and at times vitriolic Caribbean bashing, I have come to the realization that my musings of reflection won't earn me much love from this community, but I'm sure as heck not going to apologize for being a Caribbean medical school graduate either. Perhaps in my undergrad days I didn't measure up, but after a long journey I have arrived, and if for no other reason but for the sake of my own integrity, I refuse to disparagingly backtrack. I am grateful for the opportunities that I have been given, and I thank God for giving me the patience, energy, drive, and intellect to become a physician.
 
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ScootDoc...

I agree with a lot of things that have been said thus far. I think I know your brother actually...or, to prove your point even more, I know a guy who has a story like this with 3 kids and a wife (2 girls and one boy who was born during the step?)

I heard the hardest thing about US med school was getting in. I believe the hardest thing about Caribbean med school is staying in. Ross had an absolutely aweful attrition rate. I saw almost 100 students out of 420 repeat 1st semster, fail out, or leave. It is sickening. I saw people who spent hundred's of thousands of dollars and couldn't pass the comp,. Step 1, and even in one aweful case, pass Step 2 CK. These students have nothing to show for their time, money, and heartache.

But on the other hand, I have seen students who had a 17MCAT get a 225 on Step1 and match in surgery. I have seen Ross students with a 2.3 GPA in basic sciences score 215+ on their boards. I know a student who scored 260+ and one with a 270+.

My stats before med school: (If the person's GPA is <3.0 and has an MCAT <20, then it is very unlikely that s/he will be successful in passing the boards (Step I, II), or the shelf exams, etc)

GPA - 2.9
MCAT -19M (one try)

I have now passed all of my board exams (and not barely) on the first attempt, and I had 14 interviews (with a handful of them being University programs), after only applying to 35 places. I went through the process w/o repeating, failing out, etc. I am not matching into Neurosurgery, but I am very pleased with how things have worked out.

Now... what I have realized over the past 4 years is that Ross is a crap-shoot. You are rolling the dice. But if you realize your capabilities, and know what you are capable of, then maybe it is not as big of a risk as you think. But if you know you fully applied yourself in undergrad and on the MCAT and you came up short, then re-evaluate your decision. Ross is not going to spoon-feed you, but if you come out alive, you will thrive in medicine b/c you did it on your own.

If I had a chance to go to a US allopathic med school, I would have taken the opportunity in a heartbeat, but these were the cards I was dealt.

So, with every success story there is a failure story, and vice-versa.

But only the student can control what happens to them.

Brob311, thanks for your post. Although I do understand your opinion regarding applicants with low GPA/MCAT I have to wonder if stories like yours and others that I have heard are the minority. I'd actually be willing to bet that if you were to run some numbers on all the students who repeat, fail out, and/or leave the island that an overwhelming majority of them would have MCAT scores, GPAs less than those that I have mentioned in earlier posts. Now, I understand that a few, like yourself, will defeat the odds, but again, you are a rarity, and I think you know that. However, I have to commend you on a job well done. I'm sure it was an up hill battle, and my purpose is to let the many students considering the carib to know these things in advance, before they go running off to some forsaken island thinking they will return a doctor. Best of luck in future endeavors...
 
ScootDoc...

I agree with a lot of things that have been said thus far. I think I know your brother actually...or, to prove your point even more, I know a guy who has a story like this with 3 kids and a wife (2 girls and one boy who was born during the step?)

I heard the hardest thing about US med school was getting in. I believe the hardest thing about Caribbean med school is staying in. Ross had an absolutely aweful attrition rate. I saw almost 100 students out of 420 repeat 1st semster, fail out, or leave. It is sickening. I saw people who spent hundred's of thousands of dollars and couldn't pass the comp,. Step 1, and even in one aweful case, pass Step 2 CK. These students have nothing to show for their time, money, and heartache.

But on the other hand, I have seen students who had a 17MCAT get a 225 on Step1 and match in surgery. I have seen Ross students with a 2.3 GPA in basic sciences score 215+ on their boards. I know a student who scored 260+ and one with a 270+.

My stats before med school: (If the person's GPA is <3.0 and has an MCAT <20, then it is very unlikely that s/he will be successful in passing the boards (Step I, II), or the shelf exams, etc)

GPA - 2.9
MCAT -19M (one try)

I have now passed all of my board exams (and not barely) on the first attempt, and I had 14 interviews (with a handful of them being University programs), after only applying to 35 places. I went through the process w/o repeating, failing out, etc. I am not matching into Neurosurgery, but I am very pleased with how things have worked out.

Now... what I have realized over the past 4 years is that Ross is a crap-shoot. You are rolling the dice. But if you realize your capabilities, and know what you are capable of, then maybe it is not as big of a risk as you think. But if you know you fully applied yourself in undergrad and on the MCAT and you came up short, then re-evaluate your decision. Ross is not going to spoon-feed you, but if you come out alive, you will thrive in medicine b/c you did it on your own.

If I had a chance to go to a US allopathic med school, I would have taken the opportunity in a heartbeat, but these were the cards I was dealt.

So, with every success story there is a failure story, and vice-versa.

But only the student can control what happens to them.

Brob311, thanks for your post. Although I do understand your opinion regarding applicants with low GPA/MCAT I have to wonder if stories like yours and others that I have heard are the minority. I'd actually be willing to bet that if you were to run some numbers on all the students who repeat, fail out, and/or leave the island that an overwhelming majority of them would have MCAT scores, GPAs less than those that I have mentioned in earlier posts. Now, I understand that a few, like yourself, will defeat the odds, but again, you are a rarity, and I think you know that. However, I have to commend you on a job well done. I'm sure it was an up hill battle, and my purpose is to let the many students considering the carib to know these things in advance, before they go running off to some forsaken island thinking they will return a doctor. Best of luck in future endeavors...
 
Scoot Doc,

I appreciate you looking at my point of view, and understanding where I am coming from. I may be the minority...I guess I am saying there are more students out there like me than you know.

But, I whole-heartedly agree that with low GPA and MCAT scores you are taking a calculated risk, and one that is not in your favor. I have friends that have failed Step 1, transfered to lower tier Caribb schools (believe me there is such a thing), and failed out completely. I tell them that we all took gamble in coming down to Ross (or whatever Caribbean school), and nothing is guaranteed for us. And you are right, more than likely, one with scores/GPA like mine will fail out. But I think nobody should crush somebody's dreams b/c they have a low MCAT/GPA, or else I never would have found out if I could make it. But, instead of being the eternal optimist, one should realize the gamble they are taking by going into a caribb med school and plan ahead for both failure and success.
 
Well wagy27 then the same logic applies for all the degrees and graduate degrees in arts and history when people also incur a lot of debt and have to struggle to pay for it. It's a personal choice. If you go to the caribbean there is a certain amount of risk.. If your argument is all about the money and the debt that the "system" has to deal with.. then clearly there are many other examples that already happen in the US and probably cost more. The universities are providing you with a means to your goal and it's up to you to be reasonable about it and know if you can do it or not.
 
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Well wagy27 then the same logic applies for all the degrees and graduate degrees in arts and history when people also incur a lot of debt and have to struggle to pay for it. It's a personal choice. If you go to the caribbean there is a certain amount of risk.. If your argument is all about the money and the debt that the "system" has to deal with.. then clearly there are many other examples that already happen in the US and probably cost more. The universities are providing you with a means to your goal and it's up to you to be reasonable about it and know if you can do it or not.

actually graduate students with degrees in arts or sciences mostly have very little debt. grad school isn't as time consuming as medical school or law school and many if not all the grad students teach, tutor, grade papers or work in a lab for money. thus cutting their debts substantially.
 
actually graduate students with degrees in arts or sciences mostly have very little debt. grad school isn't as time consuming as medical school or law school and many if not all the grad students teach, tutor, grade papers or work in a lab for money. thus cutting their debts substantially.

What's the average undergrad debt in the US? i think it might be around 35-40K. graduate school if it doesn't prepare you well for a job it's pretty much a waste of income doing something else. For example even in science now you can spend 7-8 years between a M.Sc. and a Ph.D and you still don't have a job.. yes you don't have debt but you don't have money neither and you will live pretty much at the line of poverty! and then you can do 4 years of Post Doctoral work and still not have a position and these guys get paid only 30 or 40K.

The percentage of post docs who actually end up getting a PI position (the only justification for those long years) is very small. And these are to begin with a percentage of Ph.D students. So I don't know really what happens to the rest.

so clearly a lot of people are pursuing degrees and wasting years of their lives over no guarantee of employment in the same field. should we tell them not to go that science degree and go do something more practical because the numbers are not in their favor?

I just don't understand criticizing the caribbean because of the high attrition rates. This is present everywhere just with a little disguise.