This kind of pissed me off...

[breakmon]

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Members do not see this ad.

http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/543/UMichMedFinal.pdf

On page 29 (the second to last page), the author of this paper defined an equation that described the chance of being admitted.

Here's the one from 1999:

A = EXP((0.367059*TotMCAT) +(1.352213*SciGPA) +(3.628871*Black) +
(-1.17081*Asian) +(1.092736*Hispanic) +(0.583207*Sex) +(1.879969*Residency)
+(1.608379*Alum) +(-22.4244))

The thing that makes me mad is how there are negative points for being Asian. I don't know about you, but in my opinion that's just racist. Granted, the admissions people weren't actively putting people's numbers into this equation, since this equation only simulates their actions. However, the fact they were racist against Asians, consciously or unconsciously, really makes my blood boil.

 

[deleted407021]

However, the fact they were racist against Asians, consciously or unconsciously, really makes my blood boil.

Talk to you doctor about that, ASAP.

 

[Ophthoseidon]

It really is unfair but as far as "they" are concerned the job market is saturated with Asians.

 

[deleted480308]

http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/543/UMichMedFinal.pdf

On page 29 (the second to last page), the author of this paper defined an equation that described the chance of being admitted.

Here's the one from 1999:

A = EXP((0.367059*TotMCAT) +(1.352213*SciGPA) +(3.628871*Black) +
(-1.17081*Asian) +(1.092736*Hispanic) +(0.583207*Sex) +(1.879969*Residency)
+(1.608379*Alum) +(-22.4244))

The thing that makes me mad is how there are negative points for being Asian. I don't know about you, but in my opinion that's just racist. Granted, the admissions people weren't actively putting people's numbers into this equation, since this equation only simulates their actions. However, the fact they were racist against Asians, consciously or unconsciously, really makes my blood boil.

you've seen the stats in the WAMC forums where amcas breaks down admissions by race right?.....that discrimination exists

 

[Ismet]

It's pretty common knowledge that for the same GPA/MCAT, races that are overrepresented in medicine (Asian, Caucasian) don't do as well as URMs in admissions. You're just offended now because they put a number to it?

It's not fair, but it's nothing new.

 

[breakmon]

It's pretty common knowledge that for the same GPA/MCAT, races that are overrepresented in medicine (Asian, Caucasian) don't do as well as URMs in admissions. You're just offended now because they put a number to it?

It's not fair, but it's nothing new.

The fact that Asians are discriminated against in relation to whites is what bothers me.

 

[masaraksh]

*note: Probability of Admission = PoA = A/(1+A)

Given sGPA=3.8, and MCAT=36
white, OOS, non-resident, non-alum, male PoA = 0.017
black, OOS, non-resident, non-alum, male PoA = 0.391

Just plugging and chugging some numbers to get this thread fired up 😀

 

[masaraksh]

The fact that Asians are discriminated against in relation to whites is what bothers me.

published by the "Center of Equal Opportunity" 😀

 

[nephron19]

http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/543/UMichMedFinal.pdf

On page 29 (the second to last page), the author of this paper defined an equation that described the chance of being admitted.

Here's the one from 1999:

A = EXP((0.367059*TotMCAT) +(1.352213*SciGPA) +(3.628871*Black) +
(-1.17081*Asian) +(1.092736*Hispanic) +(0.583207*Sex) +(1.879969*Residency)
+(1.608379*Alum) +(-22.4244))

The thing that makes me mad is how there are negative points for being Asian. I don't know about you, but in my opinion that's just racist. Granted, the admissions people weren't actively putting people's numbers into this equation, since this equation only simulates their actions. However, the fact they were racist against Asians, consciously or unconsciously, really makes my blood boil.

Michigan as an entire University (most notably Law) has issues with diversity. And I am not doubting that this discrimination exists. But, some things to think about when reading this:
1. This is something a researcher that is in no way connected to the school has calculated. The researcher is boiling down issues that most likely go beyond race singularly and may represent other factors that are connected to demographics and the perceived preference. There are extracurriculars or experiences that they are partial to in admissions that may contribute to the perceived difference in demographic preference. Further, there was recently a report that professors are still more partial and responsive to white male students (http://www.policymic.com/articles/8...n-women-and-minorities-email-their-professors), so maybe even demographics effect our rec letters and other parts of our application. Even inherent bias in the interviewer could effect how an applicant is perceived. Demographic preference is there, but perhaps it is more complicated and less intentional than this equation and report tend to suggest.

2. The Center for Equal Opportunity deems itself a conservative think tank--could there also be some conflicting interests or bias?

 

[deleted407021]

published by the "Center of Equal Opportunity" 😀

8 years ago?
OP is a known troll. It's just been on a short hiatus, it seems. Don't feed it.

 

[stupid9234]

*note: Probability of Admission = PoA = A/(1+A)

Given sGPA=3.8, and MCAT=36
white, OOS, non-resident, non-alum, male PoA = 0.017
black, OOS, non-resident, non-alum, male PoA = 0.391

Just plugging and chugging some numbers to get this thread fired up 😀

Doesn't seem true for either race. .017?

 

[breakmon]

published by the "Center of Equal Opportunity" 😀

Well, actually I'm pretty sure this study was done to expose the truth - that Asians are discriminated against. The author herself is Japanese (her last name is Nagai).

The researcher is boiling down issues that most likely go beyond race singularly and may represent other factors that are connected to demographics and the perceived preference. There are extracurriculars or experiences that they are partial to in admissions that may contribute to the perceived difference in demographic preference.

Yeah, okay. All Asians just have worse extracurriculars. Makes sense.

 

[WillburCobb]

This is refreshing. It's been WAAAAY too long since our last URM thread. Thanks OP!👍

 

[breakmon]

This is refreshing. It's been WAAAAY too long since our last URM thread. Thanks OP!👍

This isn't even about URM's. In the medical school admissions process, whites are preferred over Asians.

 

[Boolean]

The unstated implication of this quote is that while Asians have high test scores, the rest of their application, on average, is deficient in some manner.
Source (largely relevant)

 

[Mad Jack]

 

[mmmcdowe]

Asian Americans represent 5% of the US population per the US census at least. There are literally more people of Italian descent in this country, let alone caucasians in general and yet asian americans often make up a substantial fraction of classes. Even if a class was all white, the magnitude of discrepancy between percent of population vs percent of class wouldn't come close. If the goal of a school is to have a class that is representative of population percentages, then unfortunately that means there will by bias against high performing asian americans.

 

[WillburCobb]

This isn't even about URM's. In the medical school admissions process, whites are preferred over Asians.

Regardless, its going to devolve into the same horse carcass that's been mercilessly beat.

 

[wtr24]

This is a model based on previous data that spits out probabilities--this is not a decision making tool used by admissions committees anywhere...

 

[Espadaleader]

Asians make up the largest portion of medical school classes. If the goal is to provide fair and equal representation to all than there will be limits on certain groups. I don't think it would be fair for taxpayers to fund medical schools and residencies that serve the entire US population that are 50% Asian. That wouldn't be fair. Medicine is a profession where diversity in race, culture, language, SES is valued and most importantly where TAXPAYERS dollars are involved. Meritocracy is not fair in medicine. Look at the UC System? You really think the US would stand by having 50% of medical schools filled by Asian applicants when Whites make up 70% of the US? The taxpayer argument is the strongest arguement. Bottom line.

 

[Mad Jack]

The fact that Asians are discriminated against in relation to whites is what bothers me.

It's just because they used whites as the base metric for the scale. Hispanics can claim bias compared to blacks, writes versus Hispanics and blacks, and, well, Asians relative to everyone else.

It is entirely possible that ECs and essays factor into the equation as well. Maybe they are more shy on average, and do not interview as well? Many of the cultural factors that lead to academic success may very well be a double-edged sword that results in deficiencies elsewhere. GPA and MCAT scores are not in any way predictive of physician quality, so, above a certain point, they stop being the major factor and ECs take the helm.

Even with this negative bias per the numbers, Asian matriculants are highly over represented in the final matriculant pool, many times so in fact.

 

[shulk]

Asians make up the largest portion of medical school classes. If the goal is to provide fair and equal representation to all than there will be limits on certain groups. I don't think it would be fair for taxpayers to fund medical schools and residencies that serve the entire US population that are 50% Asian. That wouldn't be fair. Medicine is a profession where diversity in race, culture, language, SES is valued and most importantly where TAXPAYERS dollars are involved. Meritocracy is not fair in medicine. Look at the UC System? You really think the US would stand by having 50% of medical schools filled by Asian applicants when Whites make up 70% of the US? The taxpayer argument is the strongest arguement. Bottom line.

I know that I always look to Joe Taxpayer to make important medical decisions.

 

[breakmon]

The amount of racism in this thread is sickening...

I don't think it would be fair for taxpayers to fund medical schools and residencies that serve the entire US population that are 50% Asian. That wouldn't be fair.

Yeah... maybe we should only let white candidates run for president? I don't think it's fair that Obama is in office when he only represents ~10% of the US population

Maybe they are more shy on average, and do not interview as well? Many of the cultural factors that lead to academic success may very well be a double-edged sword that results in deficiencies elsewhere.

Yeah, ok. All Asians are shy and bad at interviewing.

 

[Boolean]

The amount of racism in this thread is sickening...


Yeah... maybe we should only let white candidates run for president? I don't think it's fair that Obama is in office when he only represents ~10% of the US population



Yeah, ok. All Asians are shy and bad at interviewing.

See, now you're making the generalizations. That's not what he said.

 

[masaraksh]

Asians make up the largest portion of medical school classes. If the goal is to provide fair and equal representation to all than there will be limits on certain groups. I don't think it would be fair for taxpayers to fund medical schools and residencies that serve the entire US population that are 50% Asian. That wouldn't be fair. Medicine is a profession where diversity in race, culture, language, SES is valued and most importantly where TAXPAYERS dollars are involved. Meritocracy is not fair in medicine. Look at the UC System? You really think the US would stand by having 50% of medical schools filled by Asian applicants when Whites make up 70% of the US? The taxpayer argument is the strongest arguement. Bottom line.

No, its an idiotic argument. Just break down the federal taxes paid by race and use that distribution for a med school class... Yeah, it will most likely end up being almost all white. Last time I checked, majority of wealth in america (and thus taxes paid) is owned by rich old white dudes. Bottom line.

 

[breakmon]

See, now you're making the generalizations. That's not what he said.

That's exactly what he said - he just stated in more mildly than I did.

Imagine if I had said - maybe black people are more lazy on average, and do not study as much?

 

[Boolean]

That's exactly what he said - he just stated in more mildly than I did.

Imagine if I had said - maybe black people are more lazy on average, and do not study as much?

Now you're making generalizations and bringing in another race to this discussion.

That is not exactly what he said.

If I suggested "maybe white people like mustard more", that's all I'm saying. Maybe white people do like mustard more. I am not saying all white people like mustard.

If anything, you're the one showing a bit of racism in this thread.

 

[breakmon]

Now you're making generalizations and bringing in another race to this discussion.

That is not exactly what he said.

If I suggested "maybe white people like mustard more", that's all I'm saying. Maybe white people do like mustard more. I am not saying all white people like mustard.

If anything, you're the one showing a bit of racism in this thread.

If you are going to call me a racist for promoting equal opportunity and attacking discrimination, then I will gladly bear the title of "racist."

 

[ninjaman22]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't think anyone cares if you are pissed off.

 

[Patros]

That's exactly what he said - he just stated in more mildly than I did.

Imagine if I had said - maybe black people are more lazy on average, and do not study as much?

Calm your nips buddy, the author isn't declaring anything. The equation is just a statistical model for what the author observed for admissions, not what he is proposing. In fact, he is agreeing with you. From page 2 (and repeated throughout the document):

Likewise, probabilities of admission favor blacks and to a lesser extent Hispanics over whites and Asians for every year.

Now if you're saying "Well, it shouldn't be that way!", welcome to the goddammed club. We've had this discussion a million times, and there are both pros and cons for affirmative action in medical school admissions. You're not contributing anything new to the discussion. I guess "positivity" didn't win out this time, eh?

 

[Mad Jack]

The amount of racism in this thread is sickening...


Yeah... maybe we should only let white candidates run for president? I don't think it's fair that Obama is in office when he only represents ~10% of the US population



Yeah, ok. All Asians are shy and bad at interviewing.

Not saying they're bad at everything. Just saying, how many division 1 football, basketball, and soccer athletes do you know that are Asian? They are certainly underrepresented compared to all other races, making up just 0.4% of college basketball and 0.4% of college football Division I teams. This leaves literally thousands of graduating seniors every year with a leg up on them that cannot be accounted for with MCAT and GPA. Team sports, particularly in Division I, are a big deal when it comes to recruiting students for medical school, as they show the ability to work effectively as part of a team, to juggle multiple intense responsibilities, and to perform well under pressure.

And I wasn't saying that Asians are more socially awkward because they are Asian, rather, that people who excel academically tend to cut out a lot of their social time and activities in order to do so. Basically all of the premed club at my school was made up of the highest performing kids at school, and they were awkward as hell, white, black, or Asian. Asians are more academically successful on average, so probably more socially awkward on average due to the sacrificial required to reach that level of academic success, but likely comparable to a white kid with similar achievements.

 

[Lucca]

The average stats for an Asian matriculant and a White matriculant are identical. Their admission rates are within one standard deviation and the majority of Asians reside in california (30% of all Asians in US are from CA) so they have a "slightly" (2%) lower admission rate.

There is no bias between white and Asian in admissions and that is a myth.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Be respectful and dont post off topic or offense comments/memes or else this thread will be closed.

 

[shulk]

The average stats for an Asian matriculant and a White matriculant are identical. Their admission rates are within one standard deviation and the majority of Asians reside in california (30% of all Asians in US are from CA) so they have a "slightly" (2%) lower admission rate.

There is no bias between white and Asian in admissions and that is a myth.

The data disagrees with you. http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians

 

[Lucca]

The data disagrees with you. http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians

We're not talking about college here.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/changing-name-for-urm-advantage.1055903/#post-14916794


^My analysis from 100000 urm threads ago.

 

[Boolean]

We're not talking about college here.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/changing-name-for-urm-advantage.1055903/#post-14916794


^My analysis from 100000 urm threads ago.

I linked the article @shulk mentioned out of relevance earlier, but that isn't the be all end all of admissions (especially as it deals with college and not professional school). Ultimately what this debate boils down to is some people are uncomfortable with the fact that on average some races get in with lower average MCAT and GPA. That does not account at all for their EC's, diversity they contribute, and any number of things which may have allowed them to gain admission.

(I'm agreeing with you, just clarifying)

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Now you're making generalizations and bringing in another race to this discussion.

That is not exactly what he said.

If I suggested "maybe white people like mustard more", that's all I'm saying. Maybe white people do like mustard more. I am not saying all white people like mustard.

If anything, you're the one showing a bit of racism in this thread.

What I gathered from what he said is that culture plays into activities he didn't say that was the reason for the discrepancies.

One cannot deny that races and cultures tend to go into certain ECs like divisions in sports (contact sports for example. I would venture to say there aren't a big population of Asian students in college athletics) or music (I would venture to say there are less blacks in things like fine arts, orchestra etc)
It sounds stereotypical but it's often the truth and not supposed to be a ALL or NONE.


Interviewing on the other hand is purely individual. I don't see any reason Asians would not interview well.

 

[Espadaleader]

Not saying they're bad at everything. Just saying, how many division 1 football, basketball, and soccer athletes do you know that are Asian? They are certainly underrepresented compared to all other races, making up just 0.4% of college basketball and 0.4% of college football Division I teams. This leaves literally thousands of graduating seniors every year with a leg up on them that cannot be accounted for with MCAT and GPA. Team sports, particularly in Division I, are a big deal when it comes to recruiting students for medical school, as they show the ability to work effectively as part of a team, to juggle multiple intense responsibilities, and to perform well under pressure.

And I wasn't saying that Asians are more socially awkward because they are Asian, rather, that people who excel academically tend to cut out a lot of their social time and activities in order to do so. Basically all of the premed club at my school was made up of the highest performing kids at school, and they were awkward as hell, white, black, or Asian. Asians are more academically successful on average, so probably more socially awkward on average due to the sacrificial required to reach that level of academic success, but likely comparable to a white kid with similar achievements.

Please stop posting about Football and Basketball. No one cares about race there. You don't see Blacks rallying to diversify Golf, Hockey, and Ping-Pong? No. That is entertainment. Medicine is a social profession. You have to have diversity there.

 

[Mad Jack]

Please stop posting about Football and Basketball. No one cares about race there. You don't see Blacks rallying to diversify Golf, Hockey, and Ping-Pong? No. That is entertainment. Medicine is a social profession. You have to have diversity there.

Dude, I was posting about EC underrepresentation among Asians, and how ECs are viewed in light of admission. You have severely misunderstood my post- I'm not asking for diversity in sports, I was making a factual statement about Asian underrepresentation due to choosing to not participate in sports extracurriculars relative to other races, and the advantage they lose by this nonparticipation. Playing for a high-division team is a big advantage in the admission process, due to the insane amount of time these sports take away from student's studies. This advantage disproportionately goes to non-Asians. College athletics are arguably the most time-intensive and impressive extracurricular a person can have. Sports are more than just entertainment- they teach athletes valuable life skills, such as leadership, how to cope with stress, and how to work as a team, to levels you just can't replicate in a classroom. This probably accounts for some of the supposed "bias against Asians" seen when one looks at just MCAT and GPA, rather than entire applications with ECs and everything else.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch...an-americans-getting-their-one-shining-moment
http://www.8asians.com/2013/11/04/asian-americans-in-college-sports/

There were 3,638 Asian men on NCAA teams across all divisions in 2013, with 265,639 total participants, meaning Asians accounted for 1.37% of all male student athletes. There were 3,888 Asian women on NCAA teams across all divisions in 2013, out of 203,571 total participants, meaning Asians accounted for 1.91% of all female student athletes across all sports. Asians make up 6% of all enrolled college students as of the latest DOE data. This means that they are underrepresented in a key EC, and that literally hundreds of thousands of potential applicants have an edge on their graduate applications that most Asians do not. Collegiate sports were provided as an example because they are a weighty EC for many reasons, with team sports preferred over individual sports (hence my providing soccer, basketball, and football as examples, but any team sport works, as these sports require not just mastery of the game, but teamwork, and knowing a person can work as a part of a team is absolutely critical for a health care provider in today's environment). Sources for the numbers provided are below.

http://web1.ncaa.org/rgdSearch/exec/saSearch
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98

 

[Espadaleader]

Dude, I was posting about EC underrepresentation among Asians, and how ECs are viewed in light of admission. You have severely misunderstood my post- I'm not asking for diversity in sports, I was making a factual statement about Asian underrepresentation due to choosing to not participate in sports extracurriculars relative to other races, and the advantage they lose by this nonparticipation. Playing for a high-division team is a big advantage in the admission process, due to the insane amount of time these sports take away from student's studies. This advantage disproportionately goes to non-Asians. College athletics are arguably the most time-intensive and impressive extracurricular a person can have. Sports are more than just entertainment- they teach athletes valuable life skills, such as leadership, how to cope with stress, and how to work as a team, to levels you just can't replicate in a classroom. This probably accounts for some of the supposed "bias against Asians" seen when one looks at just MCAT and GPA, rather than entire applications with ECs and everything else.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch...an-americans-getting-their-one-shining-moment
http://www.8asians.com/2013/11/04/asian-americans-in-college-sports/

There were 3,638 Asian men on NCAA teams across all divisions in 2013, with 265,639 total participants, meaning Asians accounted for 1.37% of all male student athletes. There were 3,888 Asian women on NCAA teams across all divisions in 2013, out of 203,571 total participants, meaning Asians accounted for 1.91% of all female student athletes across all sports. Asians make up 6% of all enrolled college students as of the latest DOE data. This means that they are underrepresented in a key EC, and that literally hundreds of thousands of potential applicants have an edge on their graduate applications that most Asians do not. Collegiate sports were provided as an example because they are a weighty EC for many reasons, with team sports preferred over individual sports (hence my providing soccer, basketball, and football as examples, but any team sport works, as these sports require not just mastery of the game, but teamwork, and knowing a person can work as a part of a team is absolutely critical for a health care provider in today's environment). Sources for the numbers provided are below.

http://web1.ncaa.org/rgdSearch/exec/saSearch
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98

My bad man. I wasn't in the 4th dimension! Sorry though. I agree with what you had to say. I read you post and I'm blown away. My fault.

 

[Mad Jack]

My bad man. I wasn't in the 4th dimension! Sorry though. I agree with what you had to say. I read you post and I'm blown away. My fault.

It's all good man. I sometimes half-ass my original posts and they get misunderstood and bite me in the ass so I have to elaborate.

 

[Gregor Wiesmann]

I think I'm going to just get super tan, wear a headband in the interview, and say I'm Native American.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I think I'm going to just get super tan, wear a headband in the interview, and say I'm Native American.

That's just wrong...

 

[Gregor Wiesmann]

That's just wrong...

Almost as wrong as being biased towards people of a certain race for admittance.........and relax, I'm not actually going to do that, even though I could.

 

[breakmon]

Please stop posting about Football and Basketball. No one cares about race there. You don't see Blacks rallying to diversify Golf, Hockey, and Ping-Pong? No. That is entertainment. Medicine is a social profession. You have to have diversity there.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. If there is no affirmative action for Asians in sports, where they are underrepresented, then why is it ok to discriminate against Asians in medicine?

 

[Espadaleader]

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. If there is no affirmative action for Asians in sports, where they are underrepresented, then why is it ok to discriminate against Asians in medicine?

Sports is entertainment. Medicine is a profession that is considered a human right and most believe should be provided equitably to all in this country. Medicine is also supported by taxpayers. Thus, Medicine should reflect the demographics of this nation.

 

[solitarius]

Dude, you're posting something from 1999.

I think dude is more upset that it's okay for people to mock Asians so blatantly on something as a final exam. In today's politically correct world, I can see his POV. It would be like if someone posted a misogynist joke, a gay slur, or a racial cartoon.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Sports is entertainment. Medicine is a profession that is considered a human right and most believe should be provided equitably to all in this country. Medicine is also supported by taxpayers. Thus, Medicine should reflect the demographics of this nation.

So I'm pretty solid about the MCAT/GPA being bull$#@, and it should be fair. However, the diversity contribution can be argued yada yada yada

I was curious about the numbers from your statement.

About 12% of america is african american, https://www.aamc.org/download/87306/data/physiciandiversityfacts.pdf

Of those only 50% pay taxes, http://taxfoundation.org/article/number-americans-outside-income-tax-system-continues-grow

Only 3% of practicing physicians are African American, https://www.aamc.org/download/87306/data/physiciandiversityfacts.pdf

Your statement was surprisingly accurate.

 

[breakmon]

Sports is entertainment. Medicine is a profession that is considered a human right and most believe should be provided equitably to all in this country. Medicine is also supported by taxpayers. Thus, Medicine should reflect the demographics of this nation.

Why is acceptance into medical school considered a human right, but not acceptance to a sports team?

 

[Mad Jack]

Why is acceptance into medical school considered a human right, but not acceptance to a sports team?

Asians generally aren't applying to these teams to begin with. It's not like they're being turned down. I'd bet there would be some degree of affirmative action implemented if a certain group of athletes was consistently denied the opportunity to pursue sports opportunities and scholarships. That just isn't the case, unlike medical school, where blacks and Hispanics do compete for spots and yet even with URM policies still matriculate at a lower percentage rate than whites or Asians.