Thought experiment concerning COVID-19's impact on pharmacy school admissions

[BackRowChi]

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How coronavirus is changing admissions

Sessions for admitted students are going online, and graduate programs are worried, as are undergraduate programs that are well-known enough to have applicants from far away. And then there's next year.

www.insidehighered.com

I'm curious about how a protracted coronavirus outbreak would affect pharmacy school enrollment. My own school of pharmacy barely had 30 students admitted for the fall P1 class a few weeks ago. Do you guys think COVID will contribute to already declining enrollment? Will pharmacy schools hype the role of the pharmacist during pandemics? Will the outbreak affect pharmacist demand in the retail setting? (Any insight from you pharmacist profs out there?)

 

[297point1]

It is on my mind...but my top priority is dealing with the students I already have (especially those who might not be graduating if APPE sites shut down).

I'll worry about next year's class next week.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

How coronavirus is changing admissions

Sessions for admitted students are going online, and graduate programs are worried, as are undergraduate programs that are well-known enough to have applicants from far away. And then there's next year.

www.insidehighered.com

I'm curious about how a protracted coronavirus outbreak would affect pharmacy school enrollment. My own school of pharmacy barely had 30 students admitted for the fall P1 class a few weeks ago. Do you guys think COVID will contribute to already declining enrollment? Will pharmacy schools hype the role of the pharmacist during pandemics? Will the outbreak affect pharmacist demand in the retail setting? (Any insight from you pharmacist profs out there?)

Whoa... 30 students?! which school is this?

 

[BackRowChi]

Whoa... 30 students?! which school is this?

I wish I could say, but I'm afraid that would tip my hand. Overabundance of caution, etc.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

I wish I could say, but I'm afraid that would tip my hand. Overabundance of caution, etc.

Totally understand. Well, I know alot of schools already cut numbers, including my alum. I am told that schools will eventually close down as early as next year due to lack of applicants and funding.

 

[Phart]

You should collect data, throw together a poster abstract, and present it at Midyear. Should help you land a PGY-3 in Essential Oils.

 

[VA77]

This could be the final nail in some programs. Will all depend on how long they are willing to wait for the market to turn around.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

With how most, if not all, universities are adjusting to the pandemic by switching their curriculums to online/distance learning, I would anticipate pharmacy schools to switch over to this model as well.

If the virus persists until, say, next spring, then schools will be forced to probably do skype/online interviews or no interviews at all (just paper application) since students will be fully remote anyways. And this would actually increase the number of applicants per program because they wouldn't have to relocate to go to any specific program. In other words, welcome to 2020: the era of the online PharmD degree.







(and before someone says it, yes I know Creighton has an online program but if a top 10 school switches to this model then other schools will pick up on it and it will go mainstream)

 

[mentos]

Yup they'll just all go online like Harvard and MIT. They all use PowerPoint anyway.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Med school and pharm school here has already put a hold on rotations

 

[Gombrich12]

With how most, if not all, universities are adjusting to the pandemic by switching their curriculums to online/distance learning, I would anticipate pharmacy schools to switch over to this model as well.

If the virus persists until, say, next spring, then schools will be forced to probably do skype/online interviews or no interviews at all (just paper application) since students will be fully remote anyways. And this would actually increase the number of applicants per program because they wouldn't have to relocate to go to any specific program. In other words, welcome to 2020: the era of the online PharmD degree.







(and before someone says it, yes I know Creighton has an online program but if a top 10 school switches to this model then other schools will pick up on it and it will go mainstream)

It's not cheap and easy to start up an online program, only the well capitalized schools with existing infrastructure would have a chance at pulling something like that off.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

With how most, if not all, universities are adjusting to the pandemic by switching their curriculums to online/distance learning, I would anticipate pharmacy schools to switch over to this model as well.

If the virus persists until, say, next spring, then schools will be forced to probably do skype/online interviews or no interviews at all (just paper application) since students will be fully remote anyways. And this would actually increase the number of applicants per program because they wouldn't have to relocate to go to any specific program. In other words, welcome to 2020: the era of the online PharmD degree.







(and before someone says it, yes I know Creighton has an online program but if a top 10 school switches to this model then other schools will pick up on it and it will go mainstream)

Online programs need ACPE approval and all kinds of bureaucracy stuff involved. If we are heading into a recession, we will see pharmacy application numbers dropping off the cliff next year. It's not how many students each school willing to switch to online learning can admit. We will see college grads, not just pharmacy, drowning in debt and default left and right, if unemployment numbers go up. Who is stupid enough to sign massive student loan agreement during recession and do online pharmacy classes lol? Once online, all students will see & compare each program to death on reddit. That's totally unavoidable, and everyone will see it. Online Creighton PharmD charges 200k. Gatech OMSCS charges 6.6k. UT Austin charges 10k. How can they justify their charges by then? That's definitely not something pharmacy schools want to see. Pharmacy schools will close their doors at a much faster rate if they ever attempt online learning.

It's a one-two punch, coronavirus and the looming recession afterwards.

 

[297point1]

If we are heading into a recession, we will see pharmacy application numbers dropping off the cliff next year.

Pharmacy application numbers may go off a cliff, but it won't be due to a recession - economic downturns usually lead to increased enrollment in graduate or professional degree programs.

 

[farm4real]

Lets see how many pharmacists are exposed and how much the three-letter type places care....

Bringing a virus from god knows which customer back home to your kids, for a job like retail pharmacy, may wake some prepharms up (...." not me, no virus can touch me because I got good grades at my diploma mill"...)

 

[mentos]

Lets see how many pharmacists are exposed and how much the three-letter type places care....

Bringing a virus from god knows which customer back home to your kids, for a job like retail pharmacy, may wake some prepharms up (...." not me, no virus can touch me because I got good grades at my diploma mill"...)

This doesn't apply to prepharms. They are too good for retail and think they will get a unicorn job in a hospital basement with no patient contact or an industry job where they can work from home.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

This doesn't apply to prepharms. They are too good for retail and think they will get a unicorn job in a hospital basement with no patient contact or an industry job where they can work from home.

I have a feeling prephamrs are feeling the heat. Clearly. From what im hearing, there is a significant drop in number of applicants.

 

[deleted898085]

I have a feeling prephamrs are feeling the heat. Clearly. From what im hearing, there is a significant drop in number of applicants.

My professor said finally there is 20% less applicants. But does that mean 20% less get accepted this year? 12,000 students instead of 15,000?

 

[steveysmith54]

My professor said finally there is 20% less applicants. But does that mean 20% less get accepted this year? 12,000 students instead of 15,000?

Wonder if it's cause nowadays you don't need to really apply to 4-5 back up schools like back in the old days.
I will stay that the vast majority of graduates will not have a happy career in pharmacy.

 

[deleted898085]

Wonder if it's cause nowadays you don't need to really apply to 4-5 back up schools like back in the old days.
I will stay that the vast majority of graduates will not have a happy career in pharmacy.

They were talking about # of applicants, not # of applications.
From PharmCAS Applicant Data Report, Applications to Applicant Ratio is from 3.14 in 2003, up to 4.98 in 2009, then down to 3.21 in 2017.
I guess now, an applicant probably applies to an average of 3 schools.

 

[deleted898085]

btw, also from the PharmCAS report, there were ~14k applicants in 2004, up to 17,600 applicants in 2012, and down to 15900 in 2017 (13200 accepted, acceptance rate is 83%). These are the # just for schools that participate in pharmCAS.
I guess this year, acceptance rate will be 100%. All 13k applicants will be all accepted. lol

 

[mentos]

btw, also from the PharmCAS report, there were ~14k applicants in 2004, up to 17,600 applicants in 2012, and down to 15900 in 2017 (13200 accepted, acceptance rate is 83%). These are the # just for schools that participate in pharmCAS.
I guess this year, acceptance rate will be 100%. All 13k applicants will be all accepted. lol

They've been accepting dental students who never even applied so the acceptance rate will be higher than 100%.

 

[deleted898085]

They've been accepting dental students who never even applied so the acceptance rate will be higher than 100%.

Lol
So they'll enroll 15000 students as usual no matter how many students apply.

 

[farm4real]

Lol
So they'll enroll 15000 students as usual no matter how many students apply.

Worse, like Wells Fargo they will just enroll you without you knowing

 

[PharmtoCS]

Worse, like Wells Fargo they will just enroll you without you knowing

They'll also try to find a way to take out $200k+ in student loans on the students' behalf without the latter knowing.

 

[PSOP Student]

I guess this year, acceptance rate will be 100%. All 13k applicants will be all accepted. lol

Anything to make a buck and keep their own jobs. These professor pharmacists are well aware that there aren't any jobs, which is why they turned to "teaching" before they were fired/had their hours cut down.

 

[Sparda29]

It is on my mind...but my top priority is dealing with the students I already have (especially those who might not be graduating if APPE sites shut down).

I'll worry about next year's class next week.

Wait what? I thought students would get automatic passes. We sent all our students back home.

 

[right500]

Wait what? I thought students would get automatic passes. We sent all our students back home.

The students in my vicinity (I am just...everywhere...in the department) are avoiding direct patient contact. Phone calls, EHR stuff, telehealth and so on is still going on for the clinical rotations. Obviously central inpatient doesn't see patients anyway. I don't think we were going to have any retail rotation students anyway.

 

[Xenophylia]

Maybe- in order to protect students of course- the pharmacy schools will just start handing out degrees in exchange for $$$ without the student actually having to ever attend the school at all. Current NABPLEX and MPJE scores can't get much worse, so why risk students being exposed to the nasty, evil world outside their parents' basement when we can just give them a degree and keep them safe? "We're doing it for the students", after all.....

 

[297point1]

Wait what? I thought students would get automatic passes. We sent all our students back home.

That might work for Touro students who have two years of APPEs and will more than meet ACPE's requirements for APPE hours and core rotations.

Most other programs aren't that lucky - late last week ACPE personnel said there will be no relief for hitting the minimum 1,440 hour requirement for APPEs and the minimum 160 hour requirement for each of acute care, ambulatory care, community, and institutional. Any student expecting to graduate in May who still needed an acute care, ambulatory care, or institutional rotation is at risk of not graduating on time if the hospital they were expecting to go to tells their school that students are no longer welcome. And that happened a lot yesterday and today; schools are scrambling.

I heard that St. John's University shut down ALL of their APPE rotations - can you (or anyone else in NYC area) confirm that?

 

[farm4real]

Maybe- in order to protect students of course- the pharmacy schools will just start handing out degrees in exchange for $$$ without the student actually having to ever attend the school at all. Current NABPLEX and MPJE scores can't get much worse, so why risk students being exposed to the nasty, evil world outside their parents' basement when we can just give them a degree and keep them safe? "We're doing it for the students", after all.....

Amen.... they will learn more about pharmacy from GTA5 than from Larkin, Chicago State, et al.

 

[RxEvileye]

Logistical challenges might decrease applications a great deal even if economic considerations would make people want to go to graduate school. Aside from admissions, PharmCAS, and other staff not being able to work as efficiently with all the closures, pre-pharms might be unable to complete necessary steps to apply. I have heard PCAT exam dates are getting postponed/cancelled. It might be harder to get letters of recommendation and other things completed due to social distancing as well.

 

[steveysmith54]

Logistical challenges might decrease applications a great deal even if economic considerations would make people want to go to graduate school. Aside from admissions, PharmCAS, and other staff not being able to work as efficiently with all the closures, pre-pharms might be unable to complete necessary steps to apply. I have heard PCAT exam dates are getting postponed/cancelled. It might be harder to get letters of recommendation and other things completed due to social distancing as well.

pharmacy schools will waive pcat requirement, LOR, prerequisites, whatever it takes lol. Transition to online courses, etc...

I think if we go into a recession, more People will be applying to pharmacy schools since there will be fewer jobs after undergrad.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

pharmacy schools will waive pcat requirement, LOR, prerequisites, whatever it takes lol. Transition to online courses, etc...

I think if we go into a recession, more People will be applying to pharmacy schools since there will be fewer jobs after undergrad.

then sign at the dotted line for 200k loan lol. perfect setup for bankruptcy

 

[SClENCE]

As a part of one of my APPEs I had to interview students. I was interviewing students, one had 0 LORs and didn't even submit a personal statement even though it's a requirement. One had a GPA of 2.1. It's a good school too. My preceptor complained about it to the admissions guy. Profession is going to **** because state funding is tied to enrollment numbers.

 

[Dred Pirate]

My professor said finally there is 20% less applicants. But does that mean 20% less get accepted this year? 12,000 students instead of 15,000?

no it just means lower quality grads -

 

[AM77]

With a recession around the corner, there will be a hiring freeze. All pharmacists are affected. Regardless of the number of applicants to pharmacy schools, there will be no jobs lined up.

 

[deleted898085]

no it just means lower quality grads -

This is the trend since 2010 or so, I guess. Not just this year.

 

[deleted898085]

With a recession around the corner, there will be a hiring freeze. All pharmacists are affected. Regardless of the number of applicants to pharmacy schools, there will be no jobs lined up.

I thought this already happened.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I thought this already happened.

No new jobs available due to recession + No new jobs due to automation/expanded scope of practice of everyone else except pharmacists + 15,000 new grads in an already saturated market + No jobs being backfilled due to COVID-19 + Licensing exams being cancelled = a very unhealthy formula for a 2020 new grad.

 

[Xenophylia]

Yeah- can you imagine wasting 6+ years and $$$$ for a pharmacy education anymore? Why anyone would do it anymore is just inconceivable.... Just when you think things can't get any worse....

 

[Gombrich12]

y education anymore? Why anyone would do it anymore is just inconceivable.... Just when you think things can't get any worse...

At least they will now have an excuse when their friends ask them why they still don't have a job six months later. "Bro I thought pharmacists made mad money"

 

[Sparda29]

That might work for Touro students who have two years of APPEs and will more than meet ACPE's requirements for APPE hours and core rotations.

Most other programs aren't that lucky - late last week ACPE personnel said there will be no relief for hitting the minimum 1,440 hour requirement for APPEs and the minimum 160 hour requirement for each of acute care, ambulatory care, community, and institutional. Any student expecting to graduate in May who still needed an acute care, ambulatory care, or institutional rotation is at risk of not graduating on time if the hospital they were expecting to go to tells their school that students are no longer welcome. And that happened a lot yesterday and today; schools are scrambling.

I heard that St. John's University shut down ALL of their APPE rotations - can you (or anyone else in NYC area) confirm that?

Ya, one of the techs that works with us is a St. John's student, he said they cancelled all APPEs.

We don't have Touro students, we get students from a certain 3 year program.

 

[VA77]

This is certainly the end. Only expanding the scope of reimbursement will help and that is if they don't just dump the xtra work on existing pharmacists.

 

[deleted898085]

At least they will now have an excuse when their friends ask them why they still don't have a job six months later. "Bro I thought pharmacists made mad money"

Yeah, I was wondering what I would say when I had no job after graduation in 5/2020.
The great part is that student loan interest rate is 0% until further notice, lol

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Yeah, I was wondering what I would say when I had no job after graduation in 5/2020.
The great part is that student loan interest rate is 0% until further notice, lol

I think Sallie Mae has something to say about that for those that went to private schools.

 

[AM77]

Yeah- can you imagine wasting 6+ years and $$$$ for a pharmacy education anymore? Why anyone would do it anymore is just inconceivable.... Just when you think things can't get any worse....

Cuz the pharmacy school recruiters give them a false sense of hope.