Thoughts/Advice for Non-Traditional Applicant

[Dayyou]

Hi SDN,

As the title of this post implies, I'm looking for thoughts or advice on my current prospects of matriculating into an MD/PhD program in the near future (2-3 years). I am an non-traditional applicant (I just turned 28) and was not interested in pursuing medical school while I was in undergrad.

I graduated with a double degree in Cell Biology and Biochemistry so I have all the necessary pre-reqs, but my GPA is far from great (cGPA 3.2, sGPA 3.35). When I applied to undergraduate initially, I was only interested in pursuing a PhD later in life. However, after graduating, I found a job in a lab at a prominent cancer research center and was able to spend a lot of time shadowing the MD's, where my interest in attending medical school grew. After many talks with my PI, he recommended that I seriously consider pursuing an MD/PhD because of my interest in continuing research (at this point I had spent close to 3 years in his lab). In order to make up for lack of clinical hours on my application, I soon left the lab and worked for close to a year as a medical assistant (spring 2021-spring 2022).

I took the MCAT in early 2021 and scored a 512 after (what I would consider) suboptimal study conditions and applied in the 2021-2022 cycle. Due to stuff going on in my personal life, I was not able to spend as much time as I needed on the secondaries and subsequently only received 2 MD only interviews that ended in waitlists. Because of the disappointing cycle results, I decided to apply to Columbia's MPH program and was fortunately granted admission for this upcoming fall semester.

My current plans are now to focus hard on this MPH and come out with a much higher GPA than my undergrad and potentially retake the MCAT aiming for at least a 98+ percentile score in the coming year. Upon completion of the MPH, I will reapply to MD/PhD programs. With all of this in mind, I would just like to hear anyone's thoughts/advice for my plans to move towards completing an MD/PhD. Many thanks in advance.

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[BritainKittenMittens]

I have a few questions.
1. Why did you decide to do an MPH? Is it related to the field you'd like to study for your MD-PhD?
2. Would you be content with MD only?

I only know of second hand experiences from MSTPs from my time a while ago and don't have insider knowledge, so take that with a grain of salt since things might've changed since now. But from what I've seen, you don't fit the prototypical MD-PhD app, which is not to say you won't get in, it just means that it'll be harder. And MSTP programs are less kind toward non-traditional students from my experience, and non-MSTP programs MD-PhD I imagine less so. This is because the funded ones are making a huge investment in you, and their hope is that you become physician-scientists. The breakdown for physician-scientists is usually more research than clinical, so I think they care less about non-scientific aspects of your application, which as a non-trad, is your main advantage.

With their investment, it's not a surprise that I mostly see MSTPs as young, high academic success in GPA and MCAT (which is probably because it's a better indicator of how good a scientist you are than a clinician), with a lot of research experience (like publications). Sadly, it doesn't seem like you'd fit this mold. Doesn't mean you won't get in, just means it's less likely. Also being a reapplicant doesn't help, and not getting MD-PhD interviews is not great, either.

If your intended field of study is public health research, I wouldn't apply to MD-PhD programs if I were you. You don't really need a Ph.D. to do clinical and population-based research, most MD-PhDs are basic science. If your intended field is basic science, what are you doing in an MPH program?

 

[PandaBaer]

What's your production during your 3 years in the cancer lab? What kind of lab was it?

I suspect the MPH will do close to nothing for your application. Not a MSTP candidate, but as I understand it, successful candidates have a CV that both meets the requirements of a MD AND PhD. So for you, you'll need to beef up the MD application with upper level science courses AND an improved MCAT to show academic ability. You'll also have to evaluate your PhD portion of the application. Do you have a topic/project in mind? Do you understand how to design and execute a project from start to finish? Best to ask some PhDs or MD/PhDs on what a successful application looks like.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Feel free to visit the Research Scientists forum where there are more MD-PHD people.

 

[Dayyou]

Hi all, so sorry for the late reply, I have been away from my computer for the past few days. Thank you so much for the replies though, let me see if I can answer some of the questions that have come up:

1. Why did you decide to do an MPH? Is it related to the field you'd like to study for your MD-PhD?

My decision to pursue the MPH was motivated by two main reasons:

1) First and foremost, Columbia's MPH has an option to specialize in biostatistics, an area that I became increasingly interested in during my time in the lab. I worked in a cancer immunology lab and developed a deep appreciation for the kinds of statistical analysis needed to understand complex experiments (and how those analyses translated into acceptances into high impact journals).

2) My long term career goals (30-40 years down the line) are to work to decrease community prevalence of cancer. My immediate scientific interests lie in developing a deeper understanding of the immunological mechanisms that underlie cancer, but long term I want to target decreasing cancer rates in certain populations.

What's your production during your 3 years in the cancer lab? What kind of lab was it?

I was very lucky coming from the lab that I did - the research portion of my application is something that all the advisors I have spoken to have not worried about. I am a coauthor on 12 papers published over the last 2.5 years, half of those in high impact journals. The research revolved around better characterizing and detailing the immune response when patients with hematologic malignancies undergo bone marrow transplants.

The idea to pursue an MPH was borne out of a suggestion to bolster the clinical research aspect of my application. Prior to working as a medical assistant, I had virtually zero clinical experience, due to the fact that I was not interested in medical school until after graduating.

 

[Dral]

I am on the other side of this, but I did it differently. I did a PhD first, then went to medical school. I did a 1 year MPH during medical school.

I'll tell you that unless you have a very mathematical mind and work at it, I find it hard to believe that most people could expect to get proficient at stats from doing an MPH. Granted I only had a year of it, but at the end, I understood the concepts but would have a hard time applying it myself except in the most simplest of analyses. I don't even remember most of the deeper concepts anymore due to knowledge decay. However, not impossible as I have first hand experience of someone who became very proficient after an MPH and with working at it.

I'm not sure the MPH is the best way to go about this. If you truly want to do it, don't let us stand in your way, but I think post bacc classes, ideally while still doing research, is the way to go.

I understand you are non-trad, but research in a lab with good grades and scores is what gets people into MD/PhD programs, not going through an MPH. Med schools want to see that you can handle a lot of hard science (physiology, biochem, molecular genetics, and stats I guess) material so they are more confident you will handle the med school curriculum. A semester of Bio Stat I, public planning, environmental health, survey methods, epidemiology, etc. does not prove that.

Your GPA is not up to MD/PhD material (at least MSTP program), and unless things changed recently, a 4.0 in an MPH program will not change that. These are super competitive programs. My colleague in the next office over has a son who got in on his second try, but he took a lot of post bacc courses (and had a 99%tile MCAT and around a 3.9 GPA).

Also think a lot about what you want in your career. MDs are perfectly capable of getting research programs off the ground if they are so inclined. The MD/PhD tuition break is really nice though I must say (something I couldn't get since I was pre-MD PhD..or as a resident when I was in med school told me "You did it the PhDumb way").

If your goals are to do public health related things, then an MPH could be helpful. I still use some of the concepts and apply things that I learned in the softer science MPH courses I took.

However, I bet most MD schools that have an MD/PhD option would have a one year MPH offering that they would be ok with you fitting in somewhere. If you are dead set on that, but only get accepted to an MD program (still even a little of an uphill climb with your GPA), you could then also still do a combined MD/MPH, while shaving off a year of training (only having to do a year for the MPH). That would be my advice if you truly think an MPH will facilitate your career goals.

 

[Dayyou]

I'm not sure the MPH is the best way to go about this. If you truly want to do it, don't let us stand in your way, but I think post bacc classes, ideally while still doing research, is the way to go.

I'm definitely interested in the skills obtained by completing an MPH, but my ultimate goal is the MD-PhD. The only reason I haven't really considered doing a post-bacc since graduation is because it seemed to me like it was education just for the sake of increasing GPA. I elected to apply to MPH programs because, at least to me, it seemed like that would be a good segue into medical school while still moving forward professionally.

Your GPA is not up to MD/PhD material (at least MSTP program), and unless things changed recently, a 4.0 in an MPH program will not change that. These are super competitive programs. My colleague in the next office over has a son who got in on his second try, but he took a lot of post bacc courses (and had a 99%tile MCAT and around a 3.9 GPA).

This is ultimately what worries me most, and why I posted this thread in the first place. I have had conflicting opinions over the usefulness an MPH is to an MD-PhD application. I have had a few say that "demonstrating excellence" in the program definitely will offset a poor undergrad GPA, while others (like yourself) have said that the MPH will do very little since the admissions committees are far more interested in undergrad grades and research experience. Since the MD-PhD candidate pool is already so small to begin with, it has been difficult weighing which opinions have backing and which ones do not.

 

[Dral]

It's a tough call for sure.

As I understand it, you can apply MSTP and have the option for MD acceptance only. You can always do them separately as I did, but your time frame might get messed up. Once you start medical training, you typically don't take a non-clinical hiatus for things that take something like 4 years (people worry about skill/knowledge degradation). Like if you finished med school, then did a PhD, then tried to apply for residency, I'd suspect you would have a hard time (not as bad if applying to something less competitive like FM or peds I suppose).

It really ultimately depends on what you want. You could try going for a PhD now and then apply MD (as I did) if the PhD is really important to you. You could apply MSTP, and if you don't get in, then do the PhD and try for MD later.

If you just want to become a physician regardless, you should put in for some DO schools as well (due to your GPA), depending on what happens with your MCAT retake. But just don't apply if you don't totally accept the idea of attending DO now. What can happen is that you get a waitlist at an MD school, and a DO acceptance and have to figure out what you're going to do. It seems easy up front, but people can get creeping feelings like "Well, I got an MD waitlist, so I'll turn down the DO and try again". That's fine, but then you have another year down the drain so to speak.

Not easy decisions at all. The best thing you can do is find a really good premed advisor who understands the way MSTP works and the current situation with MD acceptances, research, and so forth.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I think we're all in agreement regarding MPH and competitiveness of an MD-PhD app. I will add though that I am on the camp that an MPH in itself won't help anyone's app unless it ties into their reason to go into medicine, most easily demonstrated by a consistent theme of public health work/interest. It isn't hard to get into an MPH program, I think they're becoming like degree mills and cash cows for universities. It seems like your reasons are that it will make you seem more appealing because it will show that you know clinical research (which in my opinion isn't big for basic-science heavy MSTPs unless your field is public health) or it will offset your other academic performance holes (which I don't think it will do because of grade inflation in these masters programs).

Do it if you're interested in it for sure, but I wouldn't do it for the application.

Good luck.

 

[Dayyou]

From what I'm gleaning from this discussion, I'm going to go ahead and set up an advising appointment with one of the med school advisors at Columbia. Perhaps it may be more prudent to drop out from the MPH program and just go ahead with the Post-Bacc...

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Instead of a postbac which is usually for career changers, you should look into SMPs for GPA repair. These are usually for people who have done all the prereqs and want rigorous classes to programs to adcoms that they're low GPA was a one off.

If you get a high GPA in a rigorous SMP (like close to 4.0) and score 98th percentile on your mcat you have a decent chance.

 

[Dral]

You may be able to get something out of this.

Getting a Graduate Degree Before Medical School

Only pursue a graduate's degree if it is specifically designed for pre-med students. Other degrees won't help your medical school application or interview.

www.prospectivedoctor.com

 

[Dayyou]

Instead of a postbac which is usually for career changers, you should look into SMPs for GPA repair.

What's an SMP? This is the first time I've ever seen this acronym.

 

[Dayyou]

You may be able to get something out of this.

It was a good read, thank you!! Though reading it muddled the waters a bit more for me haha - I truly am interested in public health policy in the long term (one of the physician-scientists at the cancer center I worked at was also a director of the department; in one of my talks with him, he mentioned that his MPH was helpful as his career progressed away from the lab and into the role as a director).

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

What's an SMP? This is the first time I've ever seen this acronym.

Special Masters Programs (SMPs): Are They Worth It? — Shemmassian Academic Consulting.

It was a good read, thank you!! Though reading it muddled the waters a bit more for me haha - I truly am interested in public health policy in the long term (one of the physician-scientists at the cancer center I worked at was also a director of the department; in one of my talks with him, he mentioned that his MPH was helpful as his career progressed away from the lab and into the role as a director).

Right, I don't think anyone's saying you shouldn't do an MPH at all, just if you really want to get into an MD-PhD program there are better ways to make your app look competitive. MPH programs can always be done later, even in residency where some programs will pay tuition for you.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I also note we have a lot of MSTP folks in the Research Scientists forum, so go there as well.

I fall into the group that doesn't recommend an MPH if you are headed specifically to a research or MD-PHD direction.