Thoughts on 9413? To node or not to node...

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Sheldor

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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(18)30528-X/fulltext

Looks like this was published recently. What are everyone's thoughts on nodal coverage in Intermediate/high risk given this new data?

I feel like although I was trained to cover nodes, that perhaps it may be time to not after all.

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The discussion is really twisting the results to keep pushing WPRT + NHT. PORT and AHT did just fine. This whole concept of 'synergy between WPRT and NHT' where it's better than either one alone would make sense if it outperformed PORT and AHT. The fact it doesn't means it's nonsense, IMO. If PORT and AHT is equal to WPRT and NHT, why not just do the former?

Logistically PORT + AHT is easier to do as well. See prostate cancer, treat prostate cancer. Not send off for hormones for 3-4 months and make sure they don't get lost to follow-up and that med-onc doesn't refer them to surg to get it cut out, and that med-onc doesn't arbitrarily throw on random stuff that delays initiation of radiation.

Too many times I've seen a patient go "well with 3-4 months of hormones my PSA went to 0 so clearly I don't need RT anymore!" and the resulting time required to explain why that isn't the case is a time sink.

I wouldn't plan to electively cover nodes in definitive prostate except in the absolute highest risk patients. Roach formula for lymph node involvement is laughably antiquated.
 
As long as Mack Roach draws breath, the board answer I'd go with is Neoadjuvant Hormones + Pelvis. It's how most examiners (likely) trained, and is defensible by saying 9413.

In practice, I see the machinations through which the data has been wrung to keep this trial "positive" and therefore relevant/publishable. It's not. It's a frankly negative trial. Worthless in all regards, like so many RTOG trials trying to answer too many questions with too many arms.

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What about the above data gives you this conclusion????

"In this cohort of patients with intermediate-risk and high-risk localised prostate cancer, NHT plus WPRT improved progression-free survival compared with NHT plus PORT and WPRT plus AHT at long-term follow-up albeit increased risk of grade 3 or worse intestinal toxicity. Interactions between radiotherapy and hormonal therapy suggests that WPRT should be avoided without NHT."

Umm... okay. But what about the arm that actually did better than the one you focused on? Not the second place arm, no the one above it, the best arm? Why don't we mention that at all? Because looking at those curves, I can tell you which one I'd want. Oh, and it's less toxic too? You don't say. Oh, and it's cheaper because you don't need two plans? Wow! But yes. Ignore that.

I guess when you see your career's chief contribution to the field go poof in front of your eyes, you may ignore some data points. But, ignoring the least toxic, most efficacious, AND cheapest option? Really? Ignore that? Come on man.

Feel free to moderately hypofractionate without pelvis.
 
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We are all subject to the biases of our training. I was trained by Roach so I cover nodes in any patient that I treated with androgen deprivation. That basically means unfavorable-intermediate risk and high-risk. The GI toxicity of 9413 is a relic of older 3D based techniques which is rarer with IMRT/VMAT.

RTOG 0924 (Protocol Table) may eventually answer this question but by the time the results are published we will either be treating patients with anti-matter or Radiation Oncology as a field will be completely defunct due to systemic therapy or because of over-training - I can't figure out which . . . ;)
 
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We are all subject to the biases of our training. I was trained by Roach so I cover nodes in any patient that I treated with androgen deprivation. That basically means unfavorable-intermediate risk and high-risk. The GI toxicity of 9413 is a relic of older 3D based techniques which is rarer with IMRT/VMAT.
I mean, I guess, but the data is what it is. It's posted above. It does take an astronomical amount of bias to reach the conclusion quoted from the abstract. Conclusions about the data should be based at least partly on.... the data. How this passed peer review is beyond me, and quite honestly speaks to the quality and focus of the Journal.

Also, I anecdotally see next to no GI toxicity when treating prostate with IMRT/VMAT. Add internals and externals to 4500 cGy? I'm expecting to be recommending Imodium and avoidance of trigger foods for some period. Maybe not forever, but a while.. Obviously, not terrible toxicity, but why?
 
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I mean, I guess, but the data is what it is. It's posted above. It does take an astronomical amount of bias to reach the conclusion quoted from the abstract. Conclusions about the data should be based at least partly on.... the data. How this passed peer review is beyond me, and quite honestly speaks to the quality and focus of the Journal.

Also, I anecdotally see next to no GI toxicity when treating prostate with IMRT/VMAT. Add internals and externals to 4500 cGy? I'm expecting to be recommending Imodium and avoidance of trigger foods for some period. Maybe not forever, but a while.. Obviously, not terrible toxicity, but why?
Indeed, unless you are at a proton center, modern image guided prostate- only radiation has negligible acute/late gi toxicity.
 
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Probably needs its own thread
Based on Ronald Chen's SEER Analysis and recent publications like this, I really think preponderance of evidence is that protons are worse. How often do you need to give pts suppositories or send them for laser coagulation? I have treated at least two hundred prostate pts over the last 8 years, with IGRT/IMRT to 79 Gy with 5 mm margins, and cant recall a case, certainly not 21% (8% lazered). And kudos to UW for not lying or suppressing data.

(192 pts ) mostly pencil beam scanning

Early toxicity and patient reported quality-of-life in patients receiving proton therapy for localized prostate cancer: a single institutional review of prospectively recorded outcomes

"Gastrointestinal (GI) toxicity
One patient experienced late GR3 toxicity, which was managed with admission for transfusion and resolved after argon plasma coagulation. There were no GR 4 or 5 events. In the acute window, 5 patients reported transient GR2 bowel toxicity, mostly in the form of diarrhea and urgency. Late GR2+ bowel toxicity was seen in 34 patients with an actuarial two-year rate of 21.3% (95% CI: 13.9–28.0%) (Fig. 2). Most observed bowel toxicity was in the form of transient rectal bleeding (32/39 patients) treated with enemas/suppositories or laser coagulation, with the remaining 7 events were due to isolated rectal discomfort or diarrhea. Of the 32 patients who experienced GR2+ rectal bleeding, all events occurred in the late window. Seventeen received medical management with enemas or suppositories, while 15 underwent argon photocoagulation or electrocautery. Bowel toxicity was associated with anticoagulation use (HR = 3.45, p = 0.002 without adjustment for repeated testing)."
 
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This trial has always been, and inexplicably is continuing to be allowed to be, complete and utter nonsense. With the amount of patients that we have enrolled on RTOG trials, breast and prostate cancer radiotherapy should not be this controversial; the "correct" answers should have been elucidated long ago. Ah well, at least we'll have the answers from the "new" NRG trial sometime in the 2030's... maybe at some point we can get back to reproving that post-mastectomy radiotherapy is beneficial for patients with 1-3 positive nodes. Kind of like they did in the 1980's....
 
Probably needs its own thread
Based on Ronald Chen's SEER Analysis and recent publications like this, I really think preponderance of evidence is that protons are worse. How often do you need to give pts suppositories or send them for laser coagulation? I have treated at least two hundred prostate pts over the last 8 years, with IGRT/IMRT to 79 Gy with 5 mm margins, and cant recall a case, certainly not 21% (8% lazered). And kudos to UW for not lying or suppressing data.

(192 pts ) mostly pencil beam scanning

Early toxicity and patient reported quality-of-life in patients receiving proton therapy for localized prostate cancer: a single institutional review of prospectively recorded outcomes

"Gastrointestinal (GI) toxicity
One patient experienced late GR3 toxicity, which was managed with admission for transfusion and resolved after argon plasma coagulation. There were no GR 4 or 5 events. In the acute window, 5 patients reported transient GR2 bowel toxicity, mostly in the form of diarrhea and urgency. Late GR2+ bowel toxicity was seen in 34 patients with an actuarial two-year rate of 21.3% (95% CI: 13.9–28.0%) (Fig. 2). Most observed bowel toxicity was in the form of transient rectal bleeding (32/39 patients) treated with enemas/suppositories or laser coagulation, with the remaining 7 events were due to isolated rectal discomfort or diarrhea. Of the 32 patients who experienced GR2+ rectal bleeding, all events occurred in the late window. Seventeen received medical management with enemas or suppositories, while 15 underwent argon photocoagulation or electrocautery. Bowel toxicity was associated with anticoagulation use (HR = 3.45, p = 0.002 without adjustment for repeated testing)."
Clearly red journal reviewers were shocked that the investigators were not utilizing space oar and rectal balloons and banished it to a European Journal.
edit: turns out they did use rectal balloons
 
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I really think preponderance of evidence is that protons are worse.
Of course

As long as Mack Roach draws breath, the board answer I'd go with is Neoadjuvant Hormones + Pelvis.
This guy. He's almost quixotic at this point. Remember what he said ~15 years ago?

"The preliminary results of RTOG 94-13 show the superiority of WPRT over prostate-only radiotherapy (PORT) in high-risk prostate cancer patients receiving hormonal therapy. For most other solid tumors, the regional lymph nodes are routinely treated by some modality, so it is not surprising that WPRT might benefit a subset of high-risk patients."

So treat nodal subclinical nodal mets to improve outcomes, but treat prostate-only in the setting of distant mets to improve survival. Talk about surprises, Dr. Roach! I wonder how he'll come down on WPRT vs PORT in the setting of extra-nodal Stage IV CaP... probably "Do the WPRT."
 
Of course


This guy. He's almost quixotic at this point. Remember what he said ~15 years ago?

"The preliminary results of RTOG 94-13 show the superiority of WPRT over prostate-only radiotherapy (PORT) in high-risk prostate cancer patients receiving hormonal therapy. For most other solid tumors, the regional lymph nodes are routinely treated by some modality, so it is not surprising that WPRT might benefit a subset of high-risk patients."

So treat nodal subclinical nodal mets to improve outcomes, but treat prostate-only in the setting of distant mets to improve survival. Talk about surprises, Dr. Roach! I wonder how he'll come down on WPRT vs PORT in the setting of extra-nodal Stage IV CaP... probably "Do the WPRT."

Both the Widmark and the Warde trials did WPRT for high-risk subsets of patients and some of those patients were probably metastatic judging by the mean PSA and GS in both trials.
 
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"At five years following treatment, freedom-from-progression (FFP) rates in the interim analysis group were 71.7 percent for PBRT alone, 82.7 percent for PBRT+ADT and 89.1 percent for PLNRT+PBRT+ADT. The FFP rate was highest for the arm combining all three treatments (p<0.0001). Freedom from progression was defined as a PSA nadir of +2, clinical failure or death from any cause, and was nearly identical for across study groups.

Rates of cancer spread were also significantly different between treatment arms. In all eligible patients followed for up to eight years, distant metastases were found in 45 patients in the PBRT-only arm, 38 patients in the PBRT+ADT arm and 25 patients in the PLNRT+PBRT+ADT arm. Distant metastasis rates were significantly lower following the three-treatment approach compared to PBRT alone (Hazard Ratio 0.52, 95% CI: 0.32-0.85) and compared to PBRT+ADT (HR 0.64, 95% CI: 0.39-1.06)."​
 
"At five years following treatment, freedom-from-progression (FFP) rates in the interim analysis group were 71.7 percent for PBRT alone, 82.7 percent for PBRT+ADT and 89.1 percent for PLNRT+PBRT+ADT. The FFP rate was highest for the arm combining all three treatments (p<0.0001). Freedom from progression was defined as a PSA nadir of +2, clinical failure or death from any cause, and was nearly identical for across study groups.

Rates of cancer spread were also significantly different between treatment arms. In all eligible patients followed for up to eight years, distant metastases were found in 45 patients in the PBRT-only arm, 38 patients in the PBRT+ADT arm and 25 patients in the PLNRT+PBRT+ADT arm. Distant metastasis rates were significantly lower following the three-treatment approach compared to PBRT alone (Hazard Ratio 0.52, 95% CI: 0.32-0.85) and compared to PBRT+ADT (HR 0.64, 95% CI: 0.39-1.06)."​

That PBRT/ADT vs pelvicENI/ADT FFP comparison at 82.7% vs 89.1% respectively (a difference of 6.4%. p=0.0063) was not less than p=0.005 so I still call BS on pelvic ENI in prostate cancer and won't change my practice :)
 
With respect to the SPPORT trial (NRG/RTOG 0534). It is not surprising that a maximalist treatment approach leads to increased PFS. I await the manuscript but it would take more meaningful endpoints like distant metastases or prostate cancer death to change my practice. 0534 reported with median FU of 6.4 years and the population was more favorable (fewer expected events) than RTOG 9601 and it took 20 years from accrual (median FU of 13 years) to observe a survival advantage in 9601. Check back in 2025.
 
With respect to the SPPORT trial (NRG/RTOG 0534). It is not surprising that a maximalist treatment approach leads to increased PFS. I await the manuscript but it would take more meaningful endpoints like distant metastases or prostate cancer death to change my practice. 0534 reported with median FU of 6.4 years and the population was more favorable (fewer expected events) than RTOG 9601 and it took 20 years from accrual (median FU of 13 years) to observe a survival advantage in 9601. Check back in 2025.

Yes, we could all wait until 2025 to see the final report showing a survival advantage. Or we could start offering pelvic RT right now, based on an early and clear difference in FFP and evidence of decreased rates of metastases. We already offer dose escalated IMRT or brachy boost (per ASCENDE-RT) for intact prostate based on a FFP benefit without a clear survival benefit, which everyone seems to accept as standard of care. I would argue that there is greater toxicity increase in escalating the prostate dose to 79.2 or adding brachy boost than there is in treating pelvic nodes. The rate of grade 3+ late GI toxicity on 0534 (which presumably would be the main added toxicity from including pelvic nodes) was 1.1%, with grade 3+ late GU toxicity of 6%, similar to the other arms. Compare that to the 19% rate of grade 3+ late GU toxicity seen on ASCENDE-RT. This will definitely change my practice, at least in the salvage setting.
 
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Other than some occasionally loose stools, what kind of toxicity is everyone so concerned with pelvic node imrt.... unless you're doing a 4 field box, I haven't seen any major toxicity with it
 
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Other than some occasionally loose stools, what kind of toxicity is everyone so concerned with pelvic node imrt.... unless you're doing a 4 field box, I haven't seen any major toxicity with it
Back in the "old days" I saw a few sacral fractures years after RT. Mostly in GYN and rectal cancer patients though and with 3D.
 
Marked, sustained drop in bowel-related QOL (10 year PORTEC 1 data). It appears to be the same for IMRT (RTOG 1203 results).

Other than some occasionally loose stools, what kind of toxicity is everyone so concerned with pelvic node imrt.... unless you're doing a 4 field box, I haven't seen any major toxicity with it
 
I do try to individualize treatments in these pts. For example a pt with low volume G (3+4) and positive margin and axumin scan 2 years later showing activity in the prostate bed- does he really need nodal radiation when everything points to a bed failure.
 
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I do try to individualize treatments in these pts. For example a pt with low volume G (3+4) and positive margin and axumin scan 2 years later showing activity in the prostate bed- does he really need nodal radiation when everything points to a bed failure.
I agree, I'm just saying I don't think it's quite the toxic thing that some are making it out to be with modern imrt/igrt
 
With respect to the SPPORT trial (NRG/RTOG 0534). It is not surprising that a maximalist treatment approach leads to increased PFS. I await the manuscript but it would take more meaningful endpoints like distant metastases or prostate cancer death to change my practice. 0534 reported with median FU of 6.4 years and the population was more favorable (fewer expected events) than RTOG 9601 and it took 20 years from accrual (median FU of 13 years) to observe a survival advantage in 9601. Check back in 2025.

Mostly disagree. SPPORT had relatively low-risk patients at initial diagnosis. Mostly gleason 7, minimal Gleason 8 or higher. 3+4 equal or slightly more common than 4+3. 50% had positive surgical margins which argues against benefit of adding nodal RT.
Despite all that, they showed PFS benefits to both, and DMFS benefits compared to fossa alone (without ADT, which for PSAs < 0.2, isn't commonly given at my institution).

The main subset analysis I'll be interested in is whether the 33ish% of patients that didn't have a lymph node dissection at time of surgery are driving the curves in the paper.

I think outside of patients at extremely low-risk for nodal failure (G3+3, maybe G3+4=7, +Margin, ECE) as their driver of biochemical recurrence, I will likely cover the nodes. Definitely covering nodes if no up front lymph node dissection (dependent on results of paper).

As a radonc, you either support things for a bPFS benefit or you don't. I support BT Boost for high-risk disease per ASCENDE-RT, so I support nodal RT in the salvage setting.
 
I have no problem with DM as a meaningful endpoint but a PSA based endpoint is always problematic because it doesn't always related to DM, PCSM and OS.

ASCENDE-RT is perfect example. Large difference in PSA recurrence but NO DIFFERENCE at all in DM. Competing comorbidity is a big problem.

To provide context consider the ASTRO 2010 abstract of 9601. At that time there was a 5% absolute difference in DM at 7 years which would eventually lead to an absolute difference of 5% in OS at 12 years with the addition of 24 months of bicalutamide.

In the recent report of 0534 the absolute difference between arm 2 and 3 (the LN question) was 0.8% at 5 years. It could be that LN treatment would increase long-term OS but the magnitude of the benefit is likely to be small and the NNT approaches 100 which means that 99 out of 100 men don't benefit.

The newer imaging tests will likely make 0534 irrelevant very soon as we find these patients with previously undetected metastatic disease...

BTW I recommend ADT for most men in the postoperative setting just having a harder time getting excited about LN irradiation.
 
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Non randomized comparison of two different prostate doses?

BED assuming alpha-beta of 2 for prostate cancer-

46 Gy/23 fractions- BED 92 Gy
37.5 Gy/15 fractions- BED 84 Gy

The difference observed can easily be explained by different prostate dose. Occam's razor

PSA endpoint..meh
 
"This was not a randomised comparison and therefore subject to bias and the findings are therefore hypothesis generating but not conclusive."

Agreed with the authors.

Come talk to me when 37.5/15 is an acceptable EBRT dose to be used as part of a definitive regimen.

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Whole Pelvis also got longer ADT the vast majority of the time, more-so than what was driven by a difference between intermediate and high-risk staging.

ADT improves 5-year bPFS in all cohorts.

A blip on the radar IMO.
 
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Until NRG 0924 is published, we can probably debate WPRT vs PORT until we are blue in the face. Both are valid approaches with data supporting them, in my opinion.

But then that will be equivocal and then we'll have to run the equivalent of RTOG 2435 (15 years between two of essentially the same trial), so we won't know until 2040 whether WPRT is still necessary.

I do wish we still used RTOG naming schema so posterity could understand how ridiculously old the data people are treating by was.
Like we talk about RTOG 85xx and it's like LOL whatever nobody does that. RTOG 97-98xx is generally considered outdated.

Posterity is not going to have that same ease of remembering how old a trial is with the new NRG numbering system.
 
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Come talk to me when 37.5/15 is an acceptable EBRT dose to be used as part of a definitive regimen.

FWIW, NCCN considers this acceptable as part of a definitive regimen, and there is good data on this regimen combined with HDR. Not that I dispute any of the shade being thrown on this study.

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Hopefully @Palex80 can provide some guidance onto what seems (to me, an uneducated American) an inane method of numbering your trials.
I believe the EORTC have also changed they name their protocols in the past years. Protocol numbers are now shorter with the first two digits addressing the activation year. The long number we had in the past, seem to have disease-specific, which is no longer the case with the new numbers.
 
I usually do SBRT for intermediate risk so never really target the nodes. For high risk i get a lot of patients who are referred for brachy boost. It never made sense to me if we're doing brachy boost treatments to not treat the pelvis (why not just do brachy mono then). Anyway there are some data to treat pelvis if doing brachy boost https://www.europeanurology.com/article/S0302-2838(19)30208-8/fulltext. If i'm not doing brachy boost, I just do conventional fractionation. I don't always treat the nodes and kind of play it by ear (despite the linked paper I still try to for Gleason 9 and for SVI).

I think the toxicity is minor with IMRT
 
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