Thoughts on associate scheduling

[ABRVET]

Hello! I'm here to hopefully gain some outside perspective on my work schedule. Even if you don't read my post at all, it would be awesome if you could post your work schedule and let me know if you feel that it allows for a good work-life balance or what you would change if not.

As for my story - I work at a two doctor practice (just me and the owner). When I was initially hired for my job almost 2 years ago, I was told that my schedule would be M-F, 8 hour shifts each day and I would never work weekends. Around 6 months into working there, my schedule was changed to M-Th with two 10 hour days and two 8 hour days. Around 3 months later, my schedule was again changed to M-Th (two 8 hour days, two 10 hour days) AND Saturday for 4 hours for a total of 40 hours.

Up until a month ago, I had worked every Saturday for an entire year. Not working Saturdays was what drew me to this job as I really like to have two days off in a row and don't work well with triple booked appts like we usually have on Saturdays. Aside from this, I had some changes in my personal life and I asked for Saturdays off again. The owner compromised and gave me every other Saturday off, so I alternate between working 4 hours on Friday or 4 hours on Saturday every other week.

I have recently began to feel burned out because the practice is getting very busy and I'm fully booked most days with no time to interpret lab work or make phone calls to clients let alone work on CE like reading journals or practice ultrasounds. Working Saturdays and some 10 hour days has also contributed to this burnout. Because of how I've been feeling, I asked the owner if I could either drop my hours or not work Saturdays anymore and apply those 4 hours to other days throughout the week. She would not agree to this and said she doesn't think that will help my burnout but also said that I need to decide what will make me happy - whether that's just working as a relief vet, going back and doing a residency, leaving the practice, etc. She told me to come up with a few ideas of what would make me happy and we are going to discuss it again in a few weeks. During our discussion she also told me that she is FURTHER reducing her hours and will go from working 18 hours to working 12 hours, which will pile more appointments on me.

I have many schedule ideas that would possibly lessen the burnout I'm experiencing, including:
- Have the owner working the closing "shift" 1-2 times per week. It would be great if I could get off early a few days each week while she closes the clinic (we're open till 6). I want to participate in afternoon activities a few times a week and cannot because I do not get out of work until 615-630. Not having time to engage in activities outside of work definitely contributes to burnout.
- Go back to my original schedule of M-F 8 hour shifts (which is why I took the job)
- Hire a part time vet to cover the hours she is giving up as well as Saturdays
- Allow me to come in one hour earlier 1-2 times per week so I can leave 1 hour early those days

What I'm wondering is - are these options too much to ask (not all of them at the same time but are any of them out of line)? Am I being unrealistic? Are vets just doomed to have a horrible work-life balance and only have free time 2 days a week when not working? Is asking for 2 days off in a row unrealistic? Do you have any other suggestions?

Thank you!

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[WhtsThFrequency]

I mean this in the most gentle way possible....

As sympathetic as I am to having to work on Saturdays, and as sympathetic I am to the notion that it sucks to not have two days off in a row.....

If you have horrible work-life balance and are getting "burned out" with 40 hour work weeks....I have to wonder if it isn't more of an issue with you and your expectations rather than the schedule per se. 40hrs a week is not "horrible work-life balance". Only having "free time 2 days a week" is not terrible. Getting out at 6:15/6:30 pm is pretty darn good and should leave you plenty of "me" time. In fact, that's pretty comfy. Better than a lot of people.

A better compromise with the boss may be a reduction in double and triple booking appointments. Now that I can see being an impediment and a contribution to feeling burned out, feeling rushed with labwork, etc.

 

[ABRVET]

I mean this in the most gentle way possible....

As sympathetic as I am to having to work on Saturdays, and as sympathetic I am to the notion that it sucks to not have two days off in a row.....

If you have horrible work-life balance and are getting "burned out" with 40 hour work weeks....I have to wonder if it isn't more of an issue with you and your expectations rather than the schedule per se. 40hrs a week is not "horrible work-life balance". Only having "free time 2 days a week" is not terrible. Getting out at 6:15/6:30 pm is pretty darn good and should leave you plenty of "me" time. In fact, that's pretty comfy. Better than a lot of people.

A better compromise with the boss may be a reduction in double and triple booking appointments. Now that I can see being an impediment and a contribution to feeling burned out, feeling rushed with labwork, etc.

I appreciate your reply because part of me wonders if I'm being ridiculous or "spoiled". But it's not necessarily the working 40 hours that burns me out - it's the way the hours are structured and the fact that when we're booked solid I have no time for stuff outside of appointments and often get out of work late. I had no problem working 10-6 M-F, I felt that I had a great work-life balance then. So I know that it's the structure of the hours that I'm not happy with. Sometimes I don't get home until 7 or later. But in addition to this, as I stated above, there are things I would like to participate in after work and I can't because they start at 530 or 6 and I'm still working at that point. Maybe it's normal for people to not do anything on weekday evenings? I always look at my friends who get out at 5 with envy because they have plenty of time for activities outside of work.

 

[Angelo84]

I work ER so schedules are not comparable-- Longer shifts/ overnights but less days a week. I also have one consistent day off whether I am on days or nights which helps in planning life. It is unclear how your day is scheduled. Do you have any block offs for same day emergencies so that cases aren't getting double booked? This would mean routine care would end up booking out farther but might help the day to day scramble. Can the last appointment of the morning/ evening be recheck only to give you a buffer for call backs. Can you delegate calls to techs-- i.e. Negative fecal or hw results, normal screening bloodwork. As far as overall scheduling it sounds like longer hours fewer days would let you create a "weekend" even if it's not sat/ Sunday. So if you are working mon-Thursday 9 hr shifts and Saturday 4 hours week one you get Monday off the next week but work longer shift (10 hr) tues-Friday off sat/Sunday then repeat. Another option would be to stack the weeks i.e. Work 45 hours three weeks a month and 25 hours one week a month for a Mini vacation. All that is assuming 40 hr work week.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

 

[DVMDream]

I mean this in the most gentle way possible....

As sympathetic as I am to having to work on Saturdays, and as sympathetic I am to the notion that it sucks to not have two days off in a row.....

If you have horrible work-life balance and are getting "burned out" with 40 hour work weeks....I have to wonder if it isn't more of an issue with you and your expectations rather than the schedule per se. 40hrs a week is not "horrible work-life balance". Only having "free time 2 days a week" is not terrible. Getting out at 6:15/6:30 pm is pretty darn good and should leave you plenty of "me" time. In fact, that's pretty comfy. Better than a lot of people.

A better compromise with the boss may be a reduction in double and triple booking appointments. Now that I can see being an impediment and a contribution to feeling burned out, feeling rushed with labwork, etc.

I disagree to some extent.

40 hours a week over 5 days DOES burn me out.
40 hours a week over 4 days DOESN'T burn me out.

I can feel myself dissolve apart after about day 3/heading into day 4. I can make it through day 4, but put me on day 5 and I want to murder everyone and everything.

I do think there is a difference between a 5 day 40 hour work week and a 4 day 40 hour work week.

Then, my first job was an alternating 4-5 day work week with easily no less than 45 hours per week and typically 50-60 hours a week, which is why I no longer work there.

However, if you close at 6 and you are leaving at 6:15-6:30 every night, that is fairly awesome. My first clinic was open until 7 and I was lucky to see my car by 8:30.

So when I went looking for my second job and one of the clinics wasn't providing any weeks with two days off in a row, I noped out of there so fast. I can't do it. I need that occasional 2 or more days off together, otherwise I am not pleasant to deal with. One day isn't enough for me to recover from the type of clients I have to deal with. It just isn't. 2 days is better and usually the most I ever outwardly ask for. 3 days is best but I understand if that can't happen.

For me, a perfect schedule would be 4 10 hour shifts in a row either M-Th or T-Fr. I don't believe GP clinics should be open on weekends (sorry, I think vet med needs to take some benefit like MD's do, if I am taking less pay for GP work, then I should have similar hours to a human GP). However, you probably won't get any clinic owner to agree to this. So, you might have to suck it up and work some Saturdays.

If a clinic is open on the weekend, weekend hours should be split as evenly as possible. I got super burned out working 3 weekends a month for over a year straight. Sorry, I don't care when someone graduated, or if they are "lower" on the totem pole, they still deserve to have some time off on weekends when most of their friends/family will be available to hang out.


Honestly, I am now super spoiled with my relief gig, but I don't have a regular schedule, it changes weekly, but now I regularly get 3-5 days off in a row. It is so amazing. I can't complain. I will probably never return to associate work.

 

[DVMDream]

Also, trying to get staff to not overbook is a huge help. I tried to tell the OM at the place I was at tonight that the schedule was not ok... double booked at 5, 5:30 and 6 closing at 7. She was all "it is fine".... nope, wasn't. The "recheck" turned into more issues. The "vaccines" turned into dying cat. Thankfully 3 of those cancelled, if they hadn't I would have been there until 8:30 or later.

The clinic I was solo doctor at, I started putting in a 30 minute block for callbacks, it helped a little, but sometimes still wasn't enough. Especially since one callback can sometimes take 30 minutes but it allowed for a slow point in the schedule, worked until corporate decided we can't do that... (grrr).

Also, same day appointments are life savers. I can't tell you how many clinics I have recommended this to who give me so much push back on it and then finally implement it and thank me. Block off 3-4 appointments for the day for "same day" slots, these can ONLY be filled on that day by people with sick pets. This way you are spreading out your wellness appointments and you aren't overbooking with wellness visits and then having to "squeeze in" or double book to get in those sick pets in. Also, don't allow the last hour to be work ups. If something is super sick an hour before close, it needs to go to ER, otherwise you will never be getting out on time, though, that doesn't seem to be a current issue for you. Hour before lunch and hour before close should only have wellness or the more "simple" things... ears, skin, "check lump", etc.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I disagree to some extent.

40 hours a week over 5 days DOES burn me out.
40 hours a week over 4 days DOESN'T burn me out.

I can feel myself dissolve apart after about day 3/heading into day 4. I can make it through day 4, but put me on day 5 and I want to murder everyone and everything.

I do think there is a difference between a 5 day 40 hour work week and a 4 day 40 hour work week.

Then, my first job was an alternating 4-5 day work week with easily no less than 45 hours per week and typically 50-60 hours a week, which is why I no longer work there.

However, if you close at 6 and you are leaving at 6:15-6:30 every night, that is fairly awesome. My first clinic was open until 7 and I was lucky to see my car by 8:30.

So when I went looking for my second job and one of the clinics wasn't providing any weeks with two days off in a row, I noped out of there so fast. I can't do it. I need that occasional 2 or more days off together, otherwise I am not pleasant to deal with. One day isn't enough for me to recover from the type of clients I have to deal with. It just isn't. 2 days is better and usually the most I ever outwardly ask for. 3 days is best but I understand if that can't happen.

For me, a perfect schedule would be 4 10 hour shifts in a row either M-Th or T-Fr. I don't believe GP clinics should be open on weekends (sorry, I think vet med needs to take some benefit like MD's do, if I am taking less pay for GP work, then I should have similar hours to a human GP). However, you probably won't get any clinic owner to agree to this. So, you might have to suck it up and work some Saturdays.

If a clinic is open on the weekend, weekend hours should be split as evenly as possible. I got super burned out working 3 weekends a month for over a year straight. Sorry, I don't care when someone graduated, or if they are "lower" on the totem pole, they still deserve to have some time off on weekends when most of their friends/family will be available to hang out.


Honestly, I am now super spoiled with my relief gig, but I don't have a regular schedule, it changes weekly, but now I regularly get 3-5 days off in a row. It is so amazing. I can't complain. I will probably never return to associate work.

Fair enough. Perhaps I'm a bit biased because of what my schedule is like and has always been like. If I get off at 5pm I'm pretty ecstatic and I would kill for a 40 hour work week, whatever the days.

I interpreted the OP's current schedule as

Week one: 40 hours a week, Friday and Sunday off
Week two: 40 hours a week, Saturday and Sunday off
Repeat

Which I still maintain is not a "horrible work-life balance" unless the job itself is a miserable environment during those 40 hours. In terms of simply hours, that is plenty of "off" time to take care of life stuff. I hate the whole "suffer because I suffered" culture as much as the next person, but when someone complains about a schedule like that....it's really hard to curtail my reaction to tell them to suck it up.

Definitely with you on the overbooking, though. That makes a reasonable schedule in terms of hours into an annoying experience.

However.....if OP can't handle this type of schedule, there is no way they should consider going back to do a residency of any sort as the OP mentioned as a potential alternative. A 40hr/week residency is a fairy tale.

 

[VIN-Foundation]

There's nothing magic about 40 hours/week. Some veterinarians work twice that and are happy and others want less. So other people's schedules aren't important. It's a matter of you and your boss trying to agree on a schedule you can both live with. Since it sounds like you don't have a contract specifying a schedule, everything is open to negotiation.

So what I would do is sort out what's most important to you. Having 2 days in a row off? Getting out earlier on some days? Not triple booking appointments? Try to offer something else of value to your employer in exchange for what's most important to you.

Hopefully you can work this out. If so, I would suggest getting the agreement in writing, that is, a contract. If you can't work it out, then your options are live with it, live with it while looking for a better option, or leave and hope you can find a better option.

And oh yeah, the term "resident" is based on "residing in the hospital." So forget about a 40 hour/week residency ... well OK maybe derm.

William Thomas

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hopefully you can work this out. If so, I would suggest getting the agreement in writing, that is, a contract. If you can't work it out, then your options are live with it, live with it while looking for a better option, or leave and hope you can find a better option.

And oh yeah, the term "resident" is based on "residing in the hospital." So forget about a 40 hour/week residency ... well OK maybe derm.

William Thomas

This, this THIS.

Always get EVERYTHING in writing.

(take it from the paranoid academic)

 

[DVMDream]

However.....if OP can't handle this type of schedule, there is no way they should consider going back to do a residency of any sort as the OP mentioned as a potential alternative. A 40hr/week residency is a fairy tale.

Truth. And why I'm in GP, didn't want the schedule of an intern/resident.

 

[twelvetigers]

Not much else from me, since I work part time now so it’s all a bit moot - but I work Saturdays. The way we do it is I work 3 Saturdays a month. If there are four, the bossman takes the other one, and if there are five, he takes two. I rarely do 4 in a row, because it’s usually split up a bit better than that.

I find I need a free weekend to look forward to, esp when I was full time.

 

[DVMDream]

Not much else from me, since I work part time now so it’s all a bit moot - but I work Saturdays. The way we do it is I work 3 Saturdays a month. If there are four, the bossman takes the other one, and if there are five, he takes two. I rarely do 4 in a row, because it’s usually split up a bit better than that.

I find I need a free weekend to look forward to, esp when I was full time.

I couldn't do the 3 a month but I was working both Saturday and Sunday so maybe that is why. By the time I did get to that weekend off, I was dead to the world and didn't want to do anything.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Super agree with finding out what's important for you and focusing on that.

For me, a four day work week that is the same every week is non negotiable. And 4 weeks vacation at this point is a must, due to having most of my family overseas in different countries. And I won't take a job where my pay would be penalized for days off (i.e. Negative accrual). At least one of those work days must be a surgery day, a full day, and no one dictates how many procedures I should have to squeeze in (sorry... there is no hurrying a dental). Otherwise I don't care. I don't mind closing shifts, and if anything I prefer to work every Saturday. So currently I'm scheduled for 36 hrs including lunch over 4 days where if I wanted to, I could have a 4 day weekend by taking a Saturday off. I actually work a lot more than that because I've decided to take on managerial duties/mentoring, but that's by choice. I'm a crazy workaholic that likes to work all the time. But it has to be on my own terms. It can't be because boss is overworking me (unmanageable appt/sx schedule, awful hours, etc...). I don't like to turn any clients away if at all possible, but I try to get my staff home on time. In order to accomplish those goals, I have authority to put in same day sick slots and blocks in the schedule, and that helps a lot. It's hard for lay staff to understand that filling all appts with wellnesses and non urgent rechecks until you're fully booked is a bad idea. I beef up a lot of same day sicks on Mon, Fri, evening hrs, Saturdays. The day after a holiday is essentially mostly reserved for same day sicks. Staff are not allowed to refuse clients until they've spoken to a doctor, and that allows me to figure out what I can handle and at what times those fit ins can be put in. Also, can your boss not hire a part time Dr to cover the hours she wants reduced off her schedule?

 

[CalliopeDVM]

As for my story - I work at a two doctor practice (just me and the owner). When I was initially hired for my job almost 2 years ago, I was told that my schedule would be M-F, 8 hour shifts each day and I would never work weekends. Around 6 months into working there, my schedule was changed to M-Th with two 10 hour days and two 8 hour days. Around 3 months later, my schedule was again changed to M-Th (two 8 hour days, two 10 hour days) AND Saturday for 4 hours for a total of 40 hours.

Up until a month ago, I had worked every Saturday for an entire year. Not working Saturdays was what drew me to this job as I really like to have two days off in a row and don't work well with triple booked appts like we usually have on Saturdays.

So........this has been changing, it's been over a year, and now you expect the boss to make some changes for you? Why didn't you say something then (like "hey, by the way, this isn't what we agreed to")? Or why are you expecting your boss to be on-board with changing now, when you've shown your boss that you've been OK with it up until now?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't suggest a change because you're exhausted and unhappy, but don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction. But maybe you're that valuable and other candidates are rare enough -- but I do think you should have not waited until now.

And, really, if you think getting out of work 15 or 20 minutes after closing is a hardship, you really might be in the wrong profession. This isn't a business that ends when the last client leaves, and I think getting out of work 15 minutes after closing is pretty great. That doesn't mean you shouldn't want to work an earlier shift (either at that clinic or another clinic), but the issue isn't getting out after closing, it's with working the closing shift. If you worked 8-4, you probably still wouldn't get out the door until 4:15 by the time you've wrapped up with a last file or passed on patient information to the late shift doctor.

 

[Caia]

I would like a 40hr work week where I get out on time pls.

 

[DVMDream]

I would like a 40hr work week where I get out on time pls.

Relief work.

 

[Teepster87]

I would like a 40hr work week where I get out on time pls.

Or come work for the government.

 

[Caia]

Relief work.

Or come work for the government.

I was mostly being snarky. My "37.5" hr job is really 55 hrs currently. Some component is being a slow new grad but overall, don't know of anyone at my practice currently that doesn't spend at least 1-2 hrs writing files after work.

 

[DVMDream]

I was mostly being snarky. My "37.5" hr job is really 55 hrs currently. Some component is being a slow new grad but overall, don't know of anyone at my practice currently that doesn't spend at least 1-2 hrs writing files after work.

No, but seriously, relief work. I am pulling around 30 to maybe 40 hours a week (including picking up ER shifts, for example this upcoming week I have a scheduled 37 hours including the ER shift, usually only get caught late on ER by about 2 hours, so probably won't hit 40 even with that) and making more than I ever did as an associate. I rarely get stuck late, usually only on the ER shifts I pick up. They don't want me to stay late because then staff has to stay late with me since I don't have means to lock up and they don't want staff to get overtime. I can regularly get 3-4 day weekends, unless I elect not to. I had 5 days this weekend, next weekend will only be 2, but because I chose to add on an ER shift the end of the week.

I write charts as I go, have learned to just make clients wait a little, I can get most charts done in 2-5 minutes (for routine stuff, so they aren't waiting long) and very occasionally have the 30 minute chart for a complex case or the psycho that I know will try to sue me so I put in long paragraphs of exact things that were said instead of just a simple "CE: dog training, appropriate behavior" . I used to think that I had to jump and go the instant a room was ready, but nope, I don't, I can take a few moments to type up my thoughts on the last case. I rarely leave my GP gigs late as relief and often leave a few minutes early. Latest I have been is 45 minutes.

I can also say I am appreciated 100x more than I ever was as an associate.

Overall, I work less hours, get paid more money, and am appreciated much more than I was as an associate. I wish I had done this a year ago.

 

[chickenlittle]

No, but seriously, relief work. I am pulling around 30 to maybe 40 hours a week (including picking up ER shifts, for example this upcoming week I have a scheduled 37 hours including the ER shift, usually only get caught late on ER by about 2 hours, so probably won't hit 40 even with that) and making more than I ever did as an associate. I rarely get stuck late, usually only on the ER shifts I pick up. They don't want me to stay late because then staff has to stay late with me since I don't have means to lock up and they don't want staff to get overtime. I can regularly get 3-4 day weekends, unless I elect not to. I had 5 days this weekend, next weekend will only be 2, but because I chose to add on an ER shift the end of the week.

I write charts as I go, have learned to just make clients wait a little, I can get most charts done in 2-5 minutes (for routine stuff, so they aren't waiting long) and very occasionally have the 30 minute chart for a complex case or the psycho that I know will try to sue me so I put in long paragraphs of exact things that were said instead of just a simple "CE: dog training, appropriate behavior" . I used to think that I had to jump and go the instant a room was ready, but nope, I don't, I can take a few moments to type up my thoughts on the last case. I rarely leave my GP gigs late as relief and often leave a few minutes early. Latest I have been is 45 minutes.

I can also say I am appreciated 100x more than I ever was as an associate.

Overall, I work less hours, get paid more money, and am appreciated much more than I was as an associate. I wish I had done this a year ago.

So happy to hear this, @DVMDream! I'm having a similar experience. Currently working part-time for Banfield (9-5:30 2 days/wk), plus doing relief work for a couple of clinics. I LOVE relief. I've never felt so appreciated, so well-paid, so in control of my own life.... love it!!

 

[DVMDream]

So happy to hear this, @DVMDream! I'm having a similar experience. Currently working part-time for Banfield (9-5:30 2 days/wk), plus doing relief work for a couple of clinics. I LOVE relief. I've never felt so appreciated, so well-paid, so in control of my own life.... love it!!

Glad to hear you are doing well!

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I've been doing only relief work for over 15 years -- it's not for everyone, because you have to be comfortable with new situations and some income insecurity, but the pros far outweighed the cons for me.

 

[dyachei]

I mean, I offer (4 day) 40 hrs a week with a 4 day weekend every other weekend to my associate - it's doable.

Perhaps if 2 days off in a row are important to you, you can ask for every other saturday off and when you have to work saturdays, having monday off instead. If the hours are more important, then I think you need to figure out a good way to meet those hours that work for both of you.

 

[psilovethomas]

I would like a 40hr work week where I get out on time pls.

Come work for me. 3 days on, 4 days off then 4 days on, 3 days off. All 8 hour shifts. Day time only. 6 figure salary. Low cost of living in a big city. You are rarely the solo dvm. Not joking.

 

[Caia]

Come work for me. 3 days on, 4 days off then 4 days on, 3 days off. All 8 hour shifts. Day time only. 6 figure salary. Low cost of living in a big city. You are rarely the solo dvm. Not joking.

 

[TXvet]

Try ER work-I work 3 days a week, yes they are long shifts but I would rather have more time off. Holiday time is not fun but have learned to live with it. I could never work 5 days a week, I would kill someone.

 

[ukrainiandude]

have learned to just make clients wait a little, I can get most charts done in 2-5 minutes (for routine stuff, so they aren't waiting long) and very occasionally have the 30 minute chart

I had an appointment with human doctor three weeks in advance, appointment was at 12:15 pm I got in at around 12:50 pm
I waited.
I told MD, I was scheduled for 12:15, she was was like “oh shoot.”
My point is, if humans wait over half an hour, then their pets can wait too.