Thoughts on BIDMC

[ExtraCrispy]

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Hey guys,

For those of you who interviewed at, or otherwise have experience with, Beth Israel Deaconess, could you please share your thoughts? I loved the program on my interview day, but since that time I've heard a smattering of negative comments about it: it's malignant, the chairman is an "intense" individual who lashes out at residents and has fired them in the past, the residents work 120 hours/week and lie about their hours to comply with Bell Commission regulations, etc.

Anyone have any insight as to the veracity of these statements?

Thanks so much, Happy New Year!

 

[Ergo]

Hey guys,

For those of you who interviewed at, or otherwise have experience with, Beth Israel Deaconess, could you please share your thoughts? I loved the program on my interview day, but since that time I've heard a smattering of negative comments about it: it's malignant, the chairman is an "intense" individual who lashes out at residents and has fired them in the past, the residents work 120 hours/week and lie about their hours to comply with Bell Commission regulations, etc.

Anyone have any insight as to the veracity of these statements?

Thanks so much, Happy New Year!

The Chair personally told me that he fires people as often as necesary, which still isnt often enough. The day I was interviewing there he was going to fire a 4th year who he said kept getting promoted to that point despite some faculty concerns. There were still some who said he'd get straightened out.

A guy I know who finished BIDMC said the chair is very malignant but that you dont interact with him much until chief year. I found him to be very direct but engaging and conversant.
Then again, the chair of UW Seattle fired a Chief this year, so noone is really safe.

 

[happy puppet]

The Chair personally told me that he fires people as often as necesary, which still isnt often enough. The day I was interviewing there he was going to fire a 4th year who he said kept getting promoted to that point despite some faculty concerns. There were still some who said he'd get straightened out.

A guy I know who finished BIDMC said the chair is very malignant but that you dont interact with him much until chief year. I found him to be very direct but engaging and conversant.
Then again, the chair of UW Seattle fired a Chief this year, so noone is really safe.

You can also check out my interview experience I just posted yesterday.

 

[mass50]

Hi guys,

I'm currently a resident at the BID, so I may be able to provide some insight. 1) Work hours are generally within the rules. Occasionally on a busy service, workhours may run over, but this is more the exception than the rule. The administrators routinely audit the hours to make sure services are not going over, and if they are, adjustments are made in manpower. As an example, Transplant Surgery is high volume/high acuity, so Dr. Fischer hired a PA and an NP to staff the service to bring down work hours and create more time to go to the OR. Interns are especially protected as there are multiple interns on a service or teams where interns help with both services, depending upon how busy either service is. A previous post in the Interview Experiences thread described a q2-q3 call. This may happen occasionally if someone is on vacation, but it will only last for the week the team member is away. Normally, call is q3-q4, and you go home post call early in the morning after rounds, not at noon. You will also have a full weekend (leave Friday, return Monday) and a semi weekend (leave Saturday AM and return Monday) each month (you can ask the Surgical Education office for a call schedule to confirm this). Remember, it is in the best interest of the program to keep within duty hours - no program wants to risk losing accreditation. Many people have opinions about Dr. Fischer, and he is more demanding than most attendings. But remember, he is world famous and Archives of Surgery named him as one of the 50 most influential surgeons of the 20th century (Archives of Surgery, June or July, 1999). Working with him is a great opportunity and opens a lot of doors. We get to interact with him at all levels. For example, when he does a case, several residents will scrub in including interns, he gives a lecture conference on Thursdays for the residents, and listens to case presentations on Fridays. He does get upset if things are not as he likes, but this passes quickly and things return to normal -it's a rite of passage. Regarding the firing of residents, this also is not a common occurence, but it has happened. Although I do not know the details, there are generally documented reasons for the non-renewal of contract. As applicants to categorical General Surgery, confidence is crucial, and you should have the confidence that you will be a strong resident and surgeon, and not worry about the few stories of residents who have been let go. The vast majority of the residents obtain outstanding training and place in great fellowships. As with any large university program, there is some attrition rate, but ours is no different than many other academic programs. Of the residents who do leave, a majority do so because they realize surgery is not their passion, and they pursue training in other specialties or in business. It is rare for a resident to leave the program for another surgical program. I hope this post is helpful and best of luck with interviewing and the match.

 

[PACU]

Thanks for giving us the real deal 😎 .

1) "Work hours are generally within the rules. Occasionally on a busy service, workhours may run over"

Buzz words used to defend non-compliant programs. If you have PAs and NPs around why is there ANY reason to run over.

2) "A previous post in the Interview Experiences thread described a q2-q3 call. This may happen occasionally if someone is on vacation, but it will only last for the week the team member is away."

Lots of occasions at BIDMC, going q3-q4 all the time and occasionally q2 sounds interesting if the work place is fun. 🙁

3) "Remember, it is in the best interest of the program to keep within duty hours - no program wants to risk losing accreditation. "


Oh right, I see TONS of residents lined up to report their over-time hours.
There is NO pressure what-so-ever to always put 75-76-77-78-79-80. 😀


4) "... about Dr. Fischer, and he is more demanding than most attendings. But remember, he is world famous and Archives of Surgery named him as one of the 50 most influential surgeons of the 20th century (Archives of Surgery, June or July, 1999). Working with him is a great opportunity and opens a lot of doors."


I think you forgot to place hights on specific words...just helping you out. I hope you didn't forget to bow your head as you typed the sacred name 😡


5) "We get to interact with him at all levels. For example, when he does a case, several residents will scrub in including interns"

Wow, sounds like very individualized attention. That's very efficient, you can have 4-5 residents watching and logging in the same case.


6) "He does get upset if things are not as he likes, but this passes quickly and things return to normal -it's a rite of passage."


Exactly "rite of passage", we are with you all the way 👍


7) "Regarding the firing of residents, this also is not a common occurence 😉 , but it has happened. As applicants to categorical General Surgery, confidence is crucial, and you should have the confidence that you will be a strong resident and surgeon, and not worry about the few stories of residents who have been let go.


This is tooo funny, it's almost too good. I have stomach craps from laughing so hard. You got me. This whole time I thought you were really serious about your "feelings" until I got to this part and realized that you just dropped in for a quick tongue-in-cheek posting.

I can't go on. Please no more! I might get a hernia from laughing so hard.

 

[RetractorFellow]

.

 

[mass50]

PACU,

If you interviewed at BID and didn't like the program, there is no need for you to rank it. My original post is an honest personal assesment of the program, and I am happy at the BID. I don't see how your sarcastic analysis really helps anyone with the tough decision of where they would like to train. To the rest of the applicants, good luck.

 

[SurgRes619]

So I'm a resident at BIDMC so let me tell you all how it really is. I can probably count on one hand the number of weeks this year I have gone over 80 hours. Post call you leave at about 7:30-8:00 usually. I have NEVER been Q2 and can't recall ever being Q3 call. I generally have about 7 calls per month. I have had 2 weekends off probably every month - this is maligant??? They are very clear that we must accurately report our hours as well. NPs and PAs are on the busy services and will be on almost all the services next year to help out with the non-operative duties. BIDMC was my top choice, and my list included MGH, Columbia, and Penn as the next choices. No one has been fired nor will anyone be fired. Dr. Fischer gives his residents a lot of attention. He has a Professors hour every Thursday and there is a case presentation for him every Friday. How many chairman stay on Friday afternoons to teach their residents? He is definitely not malignant either to the residents as someone said earlier. People gets lots of OR time - even interns.

Some of the rumors are ridiculous and it is obvious that some of them are just made up. Its a great program and I am very happy. The administration is very responsive. Research is great - and although encouraged not mandatory (about half the chiefs did it) - #3 hosp in NIH funding, prob about #5 or 6 dept of surgery in NIH funding, top CT funded lab in the country, longest funded NIH surgery lab (vascular) - and that's just the hospital, not including the resources of Harvard. You also rotate at Children's for ped surg (#1 or #2 peds hosp in country depending on year) and Mount Auburn which is a strong community hops where all you do is operate. Plus you have the opportunity to work with a world renowned chairman - and every division has top well known people. people match into great fellowships (ways have at least one ped surg person). The hospital also is going to make about 40 million in profit this year which is puts back into the hospital. MOST IMPORTANTLY Residents all get along and they all help each other out, and people are happy here.

So my point is make sure you don't believe everything you hear. You don't know who is posting - a lot of people have their own agendas. If you have anymore questions feel free to send me a message.

 

[avgjoe]

PACU,

If you interviewed at BID and didn't like the program, there is no need for you to rank it. My original post is an honest personal assesment of the program, and I am happy at the BID. I don't see how your sarcastic analysis really helps anyone with the tough decision of where they would like to train. To the rest of the applicants, good luck.

mass50, thanks for what came across to me as a sincere, well-written post.
I am curious about that annals of surgery article you mentioned (the top 50 most influential surgeons). Could you please send us the citation if you have it? thanks.

 

[mmmmdonuts]

this thread is a classic example of residency coordinators trying to masquerade as random posters. read the posts again and you can see how stilted and formal these "residents" sound. a little like people who are too used to firing out memos? suckahs you can believe them if you want. for some reason all of the rumors are untrue and its a paradise and thse pds are great. 😍 😍

edot: seriously read the posts from the "current residents" Sound a lot like interview day? yah

 

[mmmmdonuts]

I am happy at the BID.

in his position as program director

 

[Krazykritter]

I could be wrong but doesn't Beth Israel have the INN (Institute for Neurology and Neurosurgery)? I just finished reading a book about some of the advances in Neurosurgery that were made by Fred Epstein at the INN.

 

[mass50]

mass50, thanks for what came across to me as a sincere, well-written post.
I am curious about that annals of surgery article you mentioned (the top 50 most influential surgeons). Could you please send us the citation if you have it? thanks.

Hi avgjoe,

I mispoke/wrote earlier, the list is of the 24 outstanding surgeons of the century. It is on the cover of Archives of Surgery and on page 697 of the issue which is Volume 134, July 1999.

 

[PACU]

PACU,

If you interviewed at BID and didn't like the program, there is no need for you to rank it. My original post is an honest personal assesment of the program, and I am happy at the BID. I don't see how your sarcastic analysis really helps anyone with the tough decision of where they would like to train. To the rest of the applicants, good luck.

Hey Mass,

although I don't usually post I have learned a lot from others who do post on this forum. I wanted to provide some balance to your misleading propaganda.

The point of my orignial post is to help other students. The fact that your attending is famous and that you are associated with Harvard is a FACT. But the negative environment and resident turn-over is also a fact that you are trying to hide.
From my point of view, some students get blinded by a famous attending and the word H.A.R.V.A.R.D. But in reality, BIDMC IS the poor step-child of Harvard. Top candidates will stop in to interview at MGH or Brigham but not BIDMC. There are other programs out there with the same level of research, much better training and supportive attendings.

Say what you may but there is a reason why many people avoid BIDMC.

 

[SurgRes619]

PACU you have no idea what you are talking about. I love when people just sign up a generic name on a message board to trash a program. Keep in mind usually it comes out that these people have other motivations - either they didn't get an interview, didn't match in previous years, or were a prelim who didn't get a spot. Our rate of poeple leaving the program is quite low. Keep in mind we have 9 categoricals - most programs have 5 or so with some bigger ones having 8. If you look at our percentages they are no different if no lower than others prgrams with resident retention. Out of the approx 60 categorical residents we have (if you include lab) - ZERO are leaing this year. SO get your facts straight. Last year two categoricals left - one left after her first day saying she wanted to do Pathology and another left medicine altogether and has no future plans to enter another surgery program. As far as top candiates interviewing here, I interviewed at Brigham and MGH, as did my the rest of my class, and ranked BID higher because we felt it was the superior program. We are not hiding any kind of negative environment and if anyone was any questions please PM me and I will answer whatever you want completely honestly. Don't let some guy who signs up a name on the message board purely to trash a program disuade you.

 

[Blade28]

You should ask Vincristine - she's an intern there.

 

[SteadyEddy]

As with any academic program, BIDMC deserves respect! And they are affiliated with Harvard, and that demands some attention. I am a little offended that someone that is probably not even in residency wants to make these comments about a well known surgical training program. Are you even in a surgical residency??? If not, then you likely have very little insight into what it takes to get in...let alone how good a program is etc. I honestly don't even know why people (like me and others) are even responding to your ranting.

Hey Mass,

although I don't usually post I have learned a lot from others who do post on this forum. I wanted to provide some balance to your misleading propaganda.

The point of my orignial post is to help other students. The fact that your attending is famous and that you are associated with Harvard is a FACT. But the negative environment and resident turn-over is also a fact that you are trying to hide.
From my point of view, some students get blinded by a famous attending and the word H.A.R.V.A.R.D. But in reality, BIDMC IS the poor step-child of Harvard. Top candidates will stop in to interview at MGH or Brigham but not BIDMC. There are other programs out there with the same level of research, much better training and supportive attendings.

Say what you may but there is a reason why many people avoid BIDMC.

 

[entropy2]

can't we all just get along?

 

[PACU]

oops!

sorry about the double posts guys and gals- computer issues

 

[PACU]

PACU you have no idea what you are talking about. I love when people just sign up a generic name on a message board to trash a program. Keep in mind usually it comes out that these people have other motivations - either they didn't get an interview, didn't match in previous years, or were a prelim who didn't get a spot. Our rate of poeple leaving the program is quite low.

Sorry Mass, no to all your points, I'm applying this year in ortho. That's how I found out about BIDMC. Harvard's COMBINED program rocks by the way BECAUSE it's a great program and not because it's H.A.R.V.A.R.D. I'm in an IVY already and I understand people's fascination with that stuff. Some narrow-minded people tend to think that you are somehow better than the rest of the world or that you are a jerk just because you are associated with an Ivy-that stuff is crap.

I will play along. This year looks like no one is leaving (we still have 6 months to go), last year 2 left. So how many left the year before last? Dropping out of an ortho program is pretty rare so maybe general surgery is different but from my understanding dropping out of any TOP surgerical program is rare.

SteadyEddy: I have nothing against you and have learned a lot from your advice. But your comments only prove my point that a lot of people get caught up in the name game. You saw the words Harvard and quickly jumped to support Mass. If you have personal experience with BIDMC and want to add it to the forum, that would be more helpful.

I have nothing to gain and no hidden motives behind my posting since I'm not applying into general surgery or work for any company or hospital that is in competition/law-suite/battle with BIDMC. We live in the U.S. and people ARE allowed to disagree in this country. You can't get mad just because some one else gives a different view on the same issue-it's childish.

Anyway, now people have both your view and mine--I believe that they are intelligent enough to make up their own minds and will hopefully have some extra questions to ask during their interview!

 

[mmmmdonuts]

I love when people just sign up a generic name on a message board to trash a program. Keep in mind usually it comes out that these people have other motivations - either they didn't get an interview, didn't match in previous years, or were a prelim who didn't get a spot. Our rate of poeple leaving the program is quite low. Keep in mind we have 9 categoricals - most programs have 5 or so with some bigger ones having 8. If you look at our percentages they are no different if no lower than others prgrams with resident retention. Out of the approx 60 categorical residents we have (if you include lab) - ZERO are leaing this year. SO get your facts straight. Last year two categoricals left - one left after her first day saying she wanted to do Pathology and another left medicine altogether and has no future plans to enter another surgery program. As far as top candiates interviewing here, I interviewed at Brigham and MGH, as did my the rest of my class, and ranked BID higher because we felt it was the superior program. We are not hiding any kind of negative environment and if anyone was any questions please PM me and I will answer whatever you want completely honestly. Don't let some guy who signs up a name on the message board purely to trash a program disuade you.

its funny how this guy has two posts total and hes rippin on people who sign up on generic accounts. also, look at how this guy whips out stats and talks about 'retention'. like i said you suck at pretending your not in administration, dude. give up already also we enjoyed the story on how u get interviewed everywhere and still ranked BID higher just like everyone else there.

 

[Selznick]

in his position as program director

👍


I'd say, if the tone of the "resident" posts defending Deconess are anything to go by then the culture there would definately seem to be a tad malignant.


Chill out a little, guys. 😉

 

[entropy2]

for all those idiots that are mesmorized by the harvard name, most of the time all these harvard training programs are overrated anyways....

and also, ultimately the only true harvard is the one in undergrad...

everyone else is a wanabe

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

and also, ultimately the only true harvard is the one in undergrad...

everyone else is a wanabe

Harvard undergrad means nothing. There's a bunch of Harvard undergrads at my medschool. They're a fairly average bunch, ranging from the middle to the low end of the class. The do have impressively snotty attitudes though. 😛

 

[newmember]

In response to the post that said it is "rare for a resident to leave the program for another surgical program."

If you go to a high profile institution or program, be sure you can finish it.
If you "leave" or (get fired,) your career in surgery is over (and maybe it should be.) Think what the first program will say about the resident. Someone must be blamed.

Of course all the residents who ranked BIDMC highly thought "this will not happen to me."

NOT EVERY case is like this, but it does happen.
I don't know if it happens at BID.