Thoughts on General Surgery as a DO and AMA.

[DOVinciRobot]

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I am a long-time lurker of SDN and recently matched DO into General Surgery. I’ve wanted to make an account and do this thread for a while and to do it in the same vein as this thread on orthopedics and this thread on EM. There are a lot of incorrect rumors and statements I’ve seen on Reddit and SDN over the years about DO's applying to surgery and I hope that my experience can help future DO surgery applicants. This will be slanted towards matching MD programs, but I will comment on the DO side of things as well.

I don’t post my stats and invites to brag. I do so that people can compare and see what is possible for a DO General Surgery applicant and hopefully go on to have their own successful cycles. I like to think of myself as a pretty successful medical student but I am not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination. I did however, spend years constructing what I believe to be a very well rounded and targeted General Surgery application (this is key, more on that later).

So here goes:

Stats:

USMLE Step 1: 240-245
USMLE Step 2: 250-255
Comlex 1: 570-600
Comlex 2: 670-700
Comlex PE: Heh

GPA ~3.3
Rank: ~50/100
Publications: 9 (all original research, no case reports)
Presentations: 4
Letters: One from local PD, one from Vice Chair of my local program, one from an adjunct faculty attending at the local program, and one from my research PI.

Applications:
Number auditions: 1 (thanks Big Rona)
Number of DO programs applied to: 16
Number of MD programs applied to: 111

Interviews:
Number of DO interviews: 10 (cancelled 4)
Number of MD interviews: 15 (cancelled 2)
Total interviews attended: 19
Ranks: 19
Matched #1
I know people will ask, so the MD places I was invited to interview at were:

University of Nebraska
University of Kansas
University of Missouri-Columbia
East Carolina/Vidant
Western Michigan
Beaumont Royal Oak
UTH San Antonio
UTMB
Southern Illinois U
Medical College of Georgia
Mount Carmel Health
St. Elizabeth Youngstown
HCA Arlington
HCA Kingwood
Menorah Medical Center in KC

MD Stuff:

1. So when all was said and done I felt like my application cycle was really similar to the app cycles of the average applicants from low tier MD schools and I 100% attribute this to having a very well-rounded application. To put it simply, on paper my application looked like an MD app. I cannot stress enough how important I believe this to be for any DO applying surgery with aspirations of matching an MD program. The alternative is to absolutely murder boards. After you go on enough interviews you start to see the same people over and over, and I’ve come to find out the other DO’s I repeatedly saw on my interviews all had very high USMLE scores, far above mine. In another testament of the power of a well-rounded application, I know other DO GS applicants with below average USMLE scores who got similar number of interviews as I did and also got university level invites. The trick was their apps were also very well rounded with great letters, some research output, and having both a Step 1 and Step 2.


2. if you have any desire at all to be considered for MD surgery you need to take USMLE. Both Step 1 and Step 2. There are even former DO programs now that will not interview COMLEX only applicants. With USMLE S1 going P/F it is even more crucial, as it will now be extremely easy for PDs to filter out anyone without a Pass. In their eyes the only reason a DO wouldn’t take Step is because you didn’t think you’d pass. End of story. I’m sure someone will have some outlier anecdote, but this is the reality at this point in time. It’s also important to have a Step 2 score before apps go out. Some applicants this year got very few invites at first, and then once they uploaded their Step 2 score they started coming in. Some PD’s will straight up ask you why you haven’t taken Step 2 yet, and if you plan on taking it.

2b. USMLE scores do matter, but they aren’t the end of the world. If you can put out an average USMLE score, or even 5-8 points below average, you are still very much in the hunt for a GS position if you are smart with your apps. To give some concrete numbers, I would suggest aiming for 230+ on Step 1 (until P/F), and 240+ on Step 2, but if you are in the bin below each of those numbers I wouldn’t give up hope, I would just have a plan in place in case you don’t match (or you can apply to a non-competitive back up).

3. apply broadly. If you place yourself in geographic constraints you need to decide if you really want to be a surgeon or not. Because if you limit your apps then your risk of not matching increases significantly. I personally would not recommend applying to anything less than 80 programs for any DO GS applicant. Unfortunately, the DO bias is still there in surgery, and it can be difficult to predict which programs will give you an interview. I got invites to place I hadn’t thought anything about other than when I clicked the box in ERAS, and I got ghosted by programs I thought I was a shoe-in for. This year some very good applicants were sweating bullets come rank list time because they got cocky and only applied to 40-50 programs, and only ended up having 5ish ranks. Trust me, you don’t want to be in that position.

4. only do aways at MD places if you are really wanting a specific program or trying to get a letter out of the month. In MD General Surgery away rotations are NOT used in the same way as DO auditions. Only 1/33 GS applicants match to a program where they did an away, and it is very common for people to rotate somewhere and then get ghosted for an interview. This obviously changes if you are really gunning for somewhere specific. Then have at it and go try and wow the crap out of them. Letters can be a good reason to do an away, as an academic MD letter can go a long way at other academic programs.

5. research is important to MD programs. You don’t need to have a lot of actual publications, but if you can get even 1-2 actual pubs and then a bunch of posters and stuff that will go a long way. Pretty much every MD applicant has some crappy research output on their app, so if you are the DO with nothing it’s going to hurt you. Even people with solid scores were hurt this year because that’s all they had going for them on their apps. This goes back to point 1, you need to look well rounded. Research really helps.

6. the straightforward reality is that the DO bias in MD Surgery programs is still very much alive. Even the best applicants will have a ceiling on how high they can climb on the MD ladder. Mayo took 2 DO’s this year, Case Western took their first ever, UC Irvine, LSU-S, MUSC, Missouri, and Hennepin County are some of the more notable DO GS matches this year. Notice that pretty much none of those are considered top tier. Mayo is the most elite on paper, but has some aspects of their program that aren’t for everyone and are one of the only top tier programs that has ever taken a DO, UW has had 1 or 2 match with them in the last few years. There are some DO’s at some true powerhouses, but they did not match there and found their way in through a prelim and other long and difficult avenues. UTSW, Utah, and Emory are 3 that come to mind fitting this mold. Do not expect to be them. The other academic matches I’ve seen have all been to places that have some sort of history of considering DO’s, most often fairly regularly. The point is that it is totally fine to apply to these top places, but you need to realistically expect to not travel past the mid-tier level, even if you are a superstar. That’s ok, there are some really great surgery programs out there that will give you a fair shake and treat you well.

DO Stuff:

1. The merger has been very beneficial to the DO surgery programs. Unfortunately, the AOA allowed some programs to exist that honestly were pretty terrible all around. Now that they at least have to meet ACGME minimums the quality has increased. Some of the better DO programs are now pretty similar to community MD programs. Some programs still have a long-ways to go and barely hit ACGME minimums and struggle both with quantity and variety of case load. For comparison most MD programs far surpass ACGME minimums.

2. Stats for DO programs are hit and miss. Some DO programs are very board heavy and want COMLEX 600+ or something really close to it. Others straight up don’t care about them at all and will rank you based solely on the audition. Auditions are still king, even for the programs that are board heavy, and you will be expected to rotate for the DO programs to really give you serious consideration. It was actually really irritating this year as most DO programs still only truly considered auditioners, and with COVID restrictions a lot of applicants were turned off by that since it showed some programs don’t give a crap about applicants at all. Stuff like that made me wonder how some programs actually treat their residents if that’s how they treat applicants during a pandemic. Oh, and research doesn’t really matter for DO programs. Sure, it will be nice to have something, but auditions and boards will be by far the most important aspect.

Speaking of boards, it is important to really recognize that some programs are technically “former DO” programs but aren’t really DO programs. A rule of thumb is that if a program is newer, is HCA, or is largely run by MDs then they most likely will not favor a DO applicant. Now I don’t know of any former AOA program that completely ignores DO’s, but some programs like Sky Ridge and Swedish in Denver now functionally require USMLE of DO applicants and already have MDs in them. They will interview and take applicants who haven’t rotated just as fast as someone who has.





In closing, the knowledge I gained from reading and learning of the experiences from those ahead of me was absolutely critical in preparing for my own application cycle. I would not have had the success I had without it. I hope I can pass that on and my experiences help future DO GS applicants, because, well, surgery is the best specialty. My DMs are always open.

 

[Tragal Pointer]

how often were you asked about specific OMM techniques on interviews?

 

[DNC127]

Love this.

Congrats!!!

 

[DOVinciRobot]

how often were you asked about specific OMM techniques on interviews?

Galbraith’s came up in every interview.

 

[deleted898021]

I am a long-time lurker of SDN and recently matched DO into General Surgery. I’ve wanted to make an account and do this thread for a while and to do it in the same vein as this thread on orthopedics and this thread on EM. There are a lot of incorrect rumors and statements I’ve seen on Reddit and SDN over the years about DO's applying to surgery and I hope that my experience can help future DO surgery applicants. This will be slanted towards matching MD programs, but I will comment on the DO side of things as well.

I don’t post my stats and invites to brag. I do so that people can compare and see what is possible for a DO General Surgery applicant and hopefully go on to have their own successful cycles. I like to think of myself as a pretty successful medical student but I am not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination. I did however, spend years constructing what I believe to be a very well rounded and targeted General Surgery application (this is key, more on that later).

So here goes:

Stats:

USMLE Step 1: 240-245
USMLE Step 2: 250-255
Comlex 1: 570-600
Comlex 2: 670-700
Comlex PE: Heh

GPA ~3.3
Rank: ~50/100
Publications: 9 (all original research, no case reports)
Presentations: 4
Letters: One from local PD, one from Vice Chair of my local program, one from an adjunct faculty attending at the local program, and one from my research PI.

Applications:
Number auditions: 1 (thanks Big Rona)
Number of DO programs applied to: 16
Number of MD programs applied to: 111

Interviews:
Number of DO interviews: 10 (cancelled 4)
Number of MD interviews: 15 (cancelled 2)
Total interviews attended: 19
Ranks: 19
Matched #1
I know people will ask, so the MD places I was invited to interview at were:

University of Nebraska
University of Kansas
University of Missouri-Columbia
East Carolina/Vidant
Western Michigan
Beaumont Royal Oak
UTH San Antonio
UTMB
Southern Illinois U
Medical College of Georgia
Mount Carmel Health
St. Elizabeth Youngstown
HCA Arlington
HCA Kingwood
Menorah Medical Center in KC

MD Stuff:

1. So when all was said and done I felt like my application cycle was really similar to the app cycles of the average applicants from low tier MD schools and I 100% attribute this to having a very well-rounded application. To put it simply, on paper my application looked like an MD app. I cannot stress enough how important I believe this to be for any DO applying surgery with aspirations of matching an MD program. The alternative is to absolutely murder boards. After you go on enough interviews you start to see the same people over and over, and I’ve come to find out the other DO’s I repeatedly saw on my interviews all had very high USMLE scores, far above mine. In another testament of the power of a well-rounded application, I know other DO GS applicants with below average USMLE scores who got similar number of interviews as I did and also got university level invites. The trick was their apps were also very well rounded with great letters, some research output, and having both a Step 1 and Step 2.


2. if you have any desire at all to be considered for MD surgery you need to take USMLE. Both Step 1 and Step 2. There are even former DO programs now that will not interview COMLEX only applicants. With USMLE S1 going P/F it is even more crucial, as it will now be extremely easy for PDs to filter out anyone without a Pass. In their eyes the only reason a DO wouldn’t take Step is because you didn’t think you’d pass. End of story. I’m sure someone will have some outlier anecdote, but this is the reality at this point in time. It’s also important to have a Step 2 score before apps go out. Some applicants this year got very few invites at first, and then once they uploaded their Step 2 score they started coming in. Some PD’s will straight up ask you why you haven’t taken Step 2 yet, and if you plan on taking it.

2b. USMLE scores do matter, but they aren’t the end of the world. If you can put out an average USMLE score, or even 5-8 points below average, you are still very much in the hunt for a GS position if you are smart with your apps. To give some concrete numbers, I would suggest aiming for 230+ on Step 1 (until P/F), and 240+ on Step 2, but if you are in the bin below each of those numbers I wouldn’t give up hope, I would just have a plan in place in case you don’t match (or you can apply to a non-competitive back up).

3. apply broadly. If you place yourself in geographic constraints you need to decide if you really want to be a surgeon or not. Because if you limit your apps then your risk of not matching increases significantly. I personally would not recommend applying to anything less than 80 programs for any DO GS applicant. Unfortunately, the DO bias is still there in surgery, and it can be difficult to predict which programs will give you an interview. I got invites to place I hadn’t thought anything about other than when I clicked the box in ERAS, and I got ghosted by programs I thought I was a shoe-in for. This year some very good applicants were sweating bullets come rank list time because they got cocky and only applied to 40-50 programs, and only ended up having 5ish ranks. Trust me, you don’t want to be in that position.

4. only do aways at MD places if you are really wanting a specific program or trying to get a letter out of the month. In MD General Surgery away rotations are NOT used in the same way as DO auditions. Only 1/33 GS applicants match to a program where they did an away, and it is very common for people to rotate somewhere and then get ghosted for an interview. This obviously changes if you are really gunning for somewhere specific. Then have at it and go try and wow the crap out of them. Letters can be a good reason to do an away, as an academic MD letter can go a long way at other academic programs.

5. research is important to MD programs. You don’t need to have a lot of actual publications, but if you can get even 1-2 actual pubs and then a bunch of posters and stuff that will go a long way. Pretty much every MD applicant has some crappy research output on their app, so if you are the DO with nothing it’s going to hurt you. Even people with solid scores were hurt this year because that’s all they had going for them on their apps. This goes back to point 1, you need to look well rounded. Research really helps.

6. the straightforward reality is that the DO bias in MD Surgery programs is still very much alive. Even the best applicants will have a ceiling on how high they can climb on the MD ladder. Mayo took 2 DO’s this year, Case Western took their first ever, UC Irvine, LSU-S, MUSC, Missouri, and Hennepin County are some of the more notable DO GS matches this year. Notice that pretty much none of those are considered top tier. Mayo is the most elite on paper, but has some aspects of their program that aren’t for everyone and are one of the only top tier programs that has ever taken a DO, UW has had 1 or 2 match with them in the last few years. There are some DO’s at some true powerhouses, but they did not match there and found their way in through a prelim and other long and difficult avenues. UTSW, Utah, and Emory are 3 that come to mind fitting this mold. Do not expect to be them. The other academic matches I’ve seen have all been to places that have some sort of history of considering DO’s, most often fairly regularly. The point is that it is totally fine to apply to these top places, but you need to realistically expect to not travel past the mid-tier level, even if you are a superstar. That’s ok, there are some really great surgery programs out there that will give you a fair shake and treat you well.

DO Stuff:

1. The merger has been very beneficial to the DO surgery programs. Unfortunately, the AOA allowed some programs to exist that honestly were pretty terrible all around. Now that they at least have to meet ACGME minimums the quality has increased. Some of the better DO programs are now pretty similar to community MD programs. Some programs still have a long-ways to go and barely hit ACGME minimums and struggle both with quantity and variety of case load. For comparison most MD programs far surpass ACGME minimums.

2. Stats for DO programs are hit and miss. Some DO programs are very board heavy and want COMLEX 600+ or something really close to it. Others straight up don’t care about them at all and will rank you based solely on the audition. Auditions are still king, even for the programs that are board heavy, and you will be expected to rotate for the DO programs to really give you serious consideration. It was actually really irritating this year as most DO programs still only truly considered auditioners, and with COVID restrictions a lot of applicants were turned off by that since it showed some programs don’t give a crap about applicants at all. Stuff like that made me wonder how some programs actually treat their residents if that’s how they treat applicants during a pandemic. Oh, and research doesn’t really matter for DO programs. Sure, it will be nice to have something, but auditions and boards will be by far the most important aspect.

Speaking of boards, it is important to really recognize that some programs are technically “former DO” programs but aren’t really DO programs. A rule of thumb is that if a program is newer, is HCA, or is largely run by MDs then they most likely will not favor a DO applicant. Now I don’t know of any former AOA program that completely ignores DO’s, but some programs like Sky Ridge and Swedish in Denver now functionally require USMLE of DO applicants and already have MDs in them. They will interview and take applicants who haven’t rotated just as fast as someone who has.





In closing, the knowledge I gained from reading and learning of the experiences from those ahead of me was absolutely critical in preparing for my own application cycle. I would not have had the success I had without it. I hope I can pass that on and my experiences help future DO GS applicants, because, well, surgery is the best specialty. My DMs are always open.

This is actually very very encouraging, though there is bias, its a lot less than what it was before, with a less than 245 USMLE step 1 you had like 17 MD interview invites, many from mid tier programs.. same could not be said like 10-15 years ago for DO's...

 

[Cath Up]

Well done and thank you for the write-up. It has a lot of useful information.

How are HCA programs regarded?

Did you have any regional preference for your applications or does this reflect a country-wide net?

 

[DOVinciRobot]

This is actually very very encouraging, though there is bias, its a lot less than what it was before, with a less than 245 USMLE step 1 you had like 17 MD interview invites, many from mid tier programs.. same could not be said like 10-15 years ago for DO's...

From what I saw with myself and other applicants I don't think programs really differentiate between like say a 248 and a 241 like we sometimes think they do. I think we get put into score bins like the 240 bin, 250 bin, 230 bin, etc. Once you hit whatever predetermined number the program decides is their target everything else comes into play, although obviously if you have a score that really pops off the page that will impress people.

However, I saw some applicants who's apps consisted of ONLY high scores have a rough time getting high quality invites. Like I mention in the write up I really believe my success was from how well rounded my app was. Everything was commented on at one point or another in interviews from my scores, to my research, to hobbies, letters, etc.

But yes. Many of these programs would have never considered a DO 10-15 years ago. I think for DO's who look like MD's on paper the ceiling is rising. Places like WashU and Vandy may never take a DO, but there are many good programs out there who are more than willing to look at a qualified DO now.

 

[Sardonix]

r/medicalschool has high yield posts like this each year. This is the kind of stuff that SDN should be all about. Thanks for the explanation.

Galbraith’s came up in every interview.

... hol' up, for real? You s***ing me right?

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Well done and thank you for the write-up. It has a lot of useful information.

How are HCA programs regarded?

Did you have any regional preference for your applications or does this reflect a country-wide net?

HCA programs have a stigma since HCA is known to have the goal of opening residencies in order to lower physician compensation. People question how good the training is, although there are some established ones out there that are known to be decent. After interviewing at the ones I did I almost didn't rank them because of the bad taste I had in my mouth.

I didn't apply to any programs on the West Coast, Florida, New York or Chicago. I also didn't apply to very many 7 year research programs.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

... hol' up, for real? You s***ing me right?

I had to demonstrate it over Zoom at the start every time.

Lol jk. DO stuff only ever came up twice, basically just asking me what my core surgery rotation looked like. I think they wanted to make sure I wasn't just with some doc in the middle of nowhere doing only scopes all day.

 

[deleted952648]

Would you change your approach to the pre-clinical years now that Step 1 is P/F? Such as less emphasis on UFAPS and more on research?

 

[deleted966837]

How and when did you begin research? Really appreciate this post. Thank you.

 

[_DeBakey_]

I am a long-time lurker of SDN and recently matched DO into General Surgery. I’ve wanted to make an account and do this thread for a while and to do it in the same vein as this thread on orthopedics and this thread on EM. There are a lot of incorrect rumors and statements I’ve seen on Reddit and SDN over the years about DO's applying to surgery and I hope that my experience can help future DO surgery applicants. This will be slanted towards matching MD programs, but I will comment on the DO side of things as well.

I don’t post my stats and invites to brag. I do so that people can compare and see what is possible for a DO General Surgery applicant and hopefully go on to have their own successful cycles. I like to think of myself as a pretty successful medical student but I am not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination. I did however, spend years constructing what I believe to be a very well rounded and targeted General Surgery application (this is key, more on that later).

So here goes:

Stats:

USMLE Step 1: 240-245
USMLE Step 2: 250-255
Comlex 1: 570-600
Comlex 2: 670-700
Comlex PE: Heh

GPA ~3.3
Rank: ~50/100
Publications: 9 (all original research, no case reports)
Presentations: 4
Letters: One from local PD, one from Vice Chair of my local program, one from an adjunct faculty attending at the local program, and one from my research PI.

Applications:
Number auditions: 1 (thanks Big Rona)
Number of DO programs applied to: 16
Number of MD programs applied to: 111

Interviews:
Number of DO interviews: 10 (cancelled 4)
Number of MD interviews: 15 (cancelled 2)
Total interviews attended: 19
Ranks: 19
Matched #1
I know people will ask, so the MD places I was invited to interview at were:

University of Nebraska
University of Kansas
University of Missouri-Columbia
East Carolina/Vidant
Western Michigan
Beaumont Royal Oak
UTH San Antonio
UTMB
Southern Illinois U
Medical College of Georgia
Mount Carmel Health
St. Elizabeth Youngstown
HCA Arlington
HCA Kingwood
Menorah Medical Center in KC

MD Stuff:

1. So when all was said and done I felt like my application cycle was really similar to the app cycles of the average applicants from low tier MD schools and I 100% attribute this to having a very well-rounded application. To put it simply, on paper my application looked like an MD app. I cannot stress enough how important I believe this to be for any DO applying surgery with aspirations of matching an MD program. The alternative is to absolutely murder boards. After you go on enough interviews you start to see the same people over and over, and I’ve come to find out the other DO’s I repeatedly saw on my interviews all had very high USMLE scores, far above mine. In another testament of the power of a well-rounded application, I know other DO GS applicants with below average USMLE scores who got similar number of interviews as I did and also got university level invites. The trick was their apps were also very well rounded with great letters, some research output, and having both a Step 1 and Step 2.


2. if you have any desire at all to be considered for MD surgery you need to take USMLE. Both Step 1 and Step 2. There are even former DO programs now that will not interview COMLEX only applicants. With USMLE S1 going P/F it is even more crucial, as it will now be extremely easy for PDs to filter out anyone without a Pass. In their eyes the only reason a DO wouldn’t take Step is because you didn’t think you’d pass. End of story. I’m sure someone will have some outlier anecdote, but this is the reality at this point in time. It’s also important to have a Step 2 score before apps go out. Some applicants this year got very few invites at first, and then once they uploaded their Step 2 score they started coming in. Some PD’s will straight up ask you why you haven’t taken Step 2 yet, and if you plan on taking it.

2b. USMLE scores do matter, but they aren’t the end of the world. If you can put out an average USMLE score, or even 5-8 points below average, you are still very much in the hunt for a GS position if you are smart with your apps. To give some concrete numbers, I would suggest aiming for 230+ on Step 1 (until P/F), and 240+ on Step 2, but if you are in the bin below each of those numbers I wouldn’t give up hope, I would just have a plan in place in case you don’t match (or you can apply to a non-competitive back up).

3. apply broadly. If you place yourself in geographic constraints you need to decide if you really want to be a surgeon or not. Because if you limit your apps then your risk of not matching increases significantly. I personally would not recommend applying to anything less than 80 programs for any DO GS applicant. Unfortunately, the DO bias is still there in surgery, and it can be difficult to predict which programs will give you an interview. I got invites to place I hadn’t thought anything about other than when I clicked the box in ERAS, and I got ghosted by programs I thought I was a shoe-in for. This year some very good applicants were sweating bullets come rank list time because they got cocky and only applied to 40-50 programs, and only ended up having 5ish ranks. Trust me, you don’t want to be in that position.

4. only do aways at MD places if you are really wanting a specific program or trying to get a letter out of the month. In MD General Surgery away rotations are NOT used in the same way as DO auditions. Only 1/33 GS applicants match to a program where they did an away, and it is very common for people to rotate somewhere and then get ghosted for an interview. This obviously changes if you are really gunning for somewhere specific. Then have at it and go try and wow the crap out of them. Letters can be a good reason to do an away, as an academic MD letter can go a long way at other academic programs.

5. research is important to MD programs. You don’t need to have a lot of actual publications, but if you can get even 1-2 actual pubs and then a bunch of posters and stuff that will go a long way. Pretty much every MD applicant has some crappy research output on their app, so if you are the DO with nothing it’s going to hurt you. Even people with solid scores were hurt this year because that’s all they had going for them on their apps. This goes back to point 1, you need to look well rounded. Research really helps.

6. the straightforward reality is that the DO bias in MD Surgery programs is still very much alive. Even the best applicants will have a ceiling on how high they can climb on the MD ladder. Mayo took 2 DO’s this year, Case Western took their first ever, UC Irvine, LSU-S, MUSC, Missouri, and Hennepin County are some of the more notable DO GS matches this year. Notice that pretty much none of those are considered top tier. Mayo is the most elite on paper, but has some aspects of their program that aren’t for everyone and are one of the only top tier programs that has ever taken a DO, UW has had 1 or 2 match with them in the last few years. There are some DO’s at some true powerhouses, but they did not match there and found their way in through a prelim and other long and difficult avenues. UTSW, Utah, and Emory are 3 that come to mind fitting this mold. Do not expect to be them. The other academic matches I’ve seen have all been to places that have some sort of history of considering DO’s, most often fairly regularly. The point is that it is totally fine to apply to these top places, but you need to realistically expect to not travel past the mid-tier level, even if you are a superstar. That’s ok, there are some really great surgery programs out there that will give you a fair shake and treat you well.

DO Stuff:

1. The merger has been very beneficial to the DO surgery programs. Unfortunately, the AOA allowed some programs to exist that honestly were pretty terrible all around. Now that they at least have to meet ACGME minimums the quality has increased. Some of the better DO programs are now pretty similar to community MD programs. Some programs still have a long-ways to go and barely hit ACGME minimums and struggle both with quantity and variety of case load. For comparison most MD programs far surpass ACGME minimums.

2. Stats for DO programs are hit and miss. Some DO programs are very board heavy and want COMLEX 600+ or something really close to it. Others straight up don’t care about them at all and will rank you based solely on the audition. Auditions are still king, even for the programs that are board heavy, and you will be expected to rotate for the DO programs to really give you serious consideration. It was actually really irritating this year as most DO programs still only truly considered auditioners, and with COVID restrictions a lot of applicants were turned off by that since it showed some programs don’t give a crap about applicants at all. Stuff like that made me wonder how some programs actually treat their residents if that’s how they treat applicants during a pandemic. Oh, and research doesn’t really matter for DO programs. Sure, it will be nice to have something, but auditions and boards will be by far the most important aspect.

Speaking of boards, it is important to really recognize that some programs are technically “former DO” programs but aren’t really DO programs. A rule of thumb is that if a program is newer, is HCA, or is largely run by MDs then they most likely will not favor a DO applicant. Now I don’t know of any former AOA program that completely ignores DO’s, but some programs like Sky Ridge and Swedish in Denver now functionally require USMLE of DO applicants and already have MDs in them. They will interview and take applicants who haven’t rotated just as fast as someone who has.





In closing, the knowledge I gained from reading and learning of the experiences from those ahead of me was absolutely critical in preparing for my own application cycle. I would not have had the success I had without it. I hope I can pass that on and my experiences help future DO GS applicants, because, well, surgery is the best specialty. My DMs are always open.

Thanks for doing this and congrats! Are you able to comment on which former AOA programs were the most audition heavy???

 

[DOVinciRobot]

How and when did you begin research? Really appreciate this post. Thank you.

Around Thanksgiving of my first semester. I found a local PI that other students at my school had done research with in the past.

I consistently was working on a project throughout the first 3 years, and did dedicated research stuff between summer of MS1/2

 

[Kardio]

Around Thanksgiving of my first semester. I found a local PI that other students at my school had done research with in the past.

I consistently was working on a project throughout the first 3 years, and did dedicated research stuff between summer of MS1/2

Where did you fall in authorship?

What kind of research were you doing? 9 is a very high number for 0 case reports.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Thanks for doing this and congrats! Are you able to comment on which former AOA programs were the most audition heavy???

Most of the ones in Michigan. Ok State I’ve heard will only take auditioners no matter what. Doctors takes almost all auditioners, although they will take a non-rotator on rare occasion.

My gestalt of what ends up happening is that many DO programs will interview non-rotators but will ultimately rank them lower than the people who rotated, and occasionally will pick up someone who didn’t rotate if they drop that far on their list.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Where did you fall in authorship?

What kind of research were you doing? 9 is a very high number for 0 case reports.

Think systematic review, meta-analysis type papers. From what I’ve read of @DNC127 ‘s posts it’s fairly similar to the kind of stuff they did.

I had 1 first author, 3 second author, like 3 third, 1 5th, and 1 like 8th or something really low.

One paper was a basic science thing from UG, the rest were from med school and all of those were in surgical fields. My first author was a broad based surgery paper.

 

[Kardio]

Think systematic review, meta-analysis type papers. From what I’ve read of @DNC127 ‘s posts it’s fairly similar to the kind of stuff they did.

I had 1 first author, 3 second author, like 3 third, 1 5th, and 1 like 8th or something really low.

One paper was a basic science thing from UG, the rest were from med school and all of those were in surgical fields. My first author was a broad based surgery paper.

Thanks for elaborating. Figured it was something along those lines. Congratulations on matching your #1!

Oh, and welcome to SDN

 

[Banco]

Great post and congrats OP - those are some very good programs you interviewed at. To piggyback on one of those points, I do think the ceiling has gotten higher for DO's. During my GS interview trail I saw a few applicants interviewing at traditionally top tier places. They seemed to be super stars. Michigan CT surgery had a DO match too, pretty impressive.


That being said, I couldn't agree more - craft a well rounded application and apply broadly - better to have more interviews that you cancel than too few.

 

[Pwny]

I love your username, DOVinciRobot. Def chuckled to myself upon reading it.

Been curious what the process has been like for DOs vs. MDs especially with STEP 1 going P/F, so thanks so much for sharing!

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Great post and congrats OP - those are some very good programs you interviewed at. To piggyback on one of those points, I do think the ceiling has gotten higher for DO's. During my GS interview trail I saw a few applicants interviewing at traditionally top tier places. They seemed to be super stars. Michigan CT surgery had a DO match too, pretty impressive.


That being said, I couldn't agree more - craft a well rounded application and apply broadly - better to have more interviews that you cancel than too few.

Agreed, the ceiling is definitely slowly rising. Hopefully it continues to do that. If you feel comfortable sharing it might help other DO applicants to know which top programs invited DOs to interview.

The CT Michigan match is one of the strongest DO matches I’ve ever seen. I heard she was an excellent candidate and also got some excellent GS invites.

 

[Billroth_III]

Not sure if you mentioned this somewhere and I missed it, but was your research strictly "general surgery" related?

I ask because I have been doing research in general surgery subs (oncology, cardiac and thoracic) but not straight general surgery and don't want it to count against me lol.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Not sure if you mentioned this somewhere and I missed it, but was your research strictly "general surgery" related?

I ask because I have been doing research in general surgery subs (oncology, cardiac and thoracic) but not straight general surgery and don't want it to count against me lol.

1 General Surgery paper, with the rest in other surgical specialties. Got some questions about if I was interested in those other specialties at one time or another at some places, but my research was always brought up as a big positive.

 

[Billroth_III]

1 General Surgery paper, with the rest in other surgical specialties. Got some questions about if I was interested in those other specialties at one time or another at some places, but my research was always brought up as a big positive.

Is there a good way to answer that question without flat out lying lol? I might be interested in something beyond gen surg but at the same time I am aware no one likes to feel like means to an end or 2nd best.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Is there a good way to answer that question without flat out lying lol? I might be interested in something beyond gen surg but at the same time I am aware no one likes to feel like means to an end or 2nd best.

I don’t think having research in those fields will ever become a negative. They are GS adjacent fields. Just say that you are interested in those fields as possible landing spots but really want to get into GS residency and see what you enjoy doing the most.

80% of GS residents do a fellowship, so no one will bat an eye at having fellowship aspirations. I got asked what my career goals were and if I was interested in a fellowship every interview, and the vibe I got was they really were just curious and trying to learn about me and if I would be a good fit for their program.

 

[Banco]

Not sure if you mentioned this somewhere and I missed it, but was your research strictly "general surgery" related?

I ask because I have been doing research in general surgery subs (oncology, cardiac and thoracic) but not straight general surgery and don't want it to count against me lol.

Those fields are also "general surgery." I think you're overthinking it. The issue happens when all the research you have is ortho or cardiac related and you have the stink of "I6 Cardiac applicant" with gen surgery as a backup.

Agreed, the ceiling is definitely slowly rising. Hopefully it continues to do that. If you feel comfortable sharing it might help other DO applicants to know which top programs invited DOs to interview.

The CT Michigan match is one of the strongest DO matches I’ve ever seen. I heard she was an excellent candidate and also got some excellent GS invites.

I don't remember all so clearly so I don't want to lead anyone astray, but I know for sure there was one at UPenn.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am a long-time lurker of SDN and recently matched DO into General Surgery. I’ve wanted to make an account and do this thread for a while and to do it in the same vein as this thread on orthopedics and this thread on EM. There are a lot of incorrect rumors and statements I’ve seen on Reddit and SDN over the years about DO's applying to surgery and I hope that my experience can help future DO surgery applicants. This will be slanted towards matching MD programs, but I will comment on the DO side of things as well.

I don’t post my stats and invites to brag. I do so that people can compare and see what is possible for a DO General Surgery applicant and hopefully go on to have their own successful cycles. I like to think of myself as a pretty successful medical student but I am not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination. I did however, spend years constructing what I believe to be a very well rounded and targeted General Surgery application (this is key, more on that later).

So here goes:

Stats:

USMLE Step 1: 240-245
USMLE Step 2: 250-255
Comlex 1: 570-600
Comlex 2: 670-700
Comlex PE: Heh

GPA ~3.3
Rank: ~50/100
Publications: 9 (all original research, no case reports)
Presentations: 4
Letters: One from local PD, one from Vice Chair of my local program, one from an adjunct faculty attending at the local program, and one from my research PI.

Applications:
Number auditions: 1 (thanks Big Rona)
Number of DO programs applied to: 16
Number of MD programs applied to: 111

Interviews:
Number of DO interviews: 10 (cancelled 4)
Number of MD interviews: 15 (cancelled 2)
Total interviews attended: 19
Ranks: 19
Matched #1
I know people will ask, so the MD places I was invited to interview at were:

University of Nebraska
University of Kansas
University of Missouri-Columbia
East Carolina/Vidant
Western Michigan
Beaumont Royal Oak
UTH San Antonio
UTMB
Southern Illinois U
Medical College of Georgia
Mount Carmel Health
St. Elizabeth Youngstown
HCA Arlington
HCA Kingwood
Menorah Medical Center in KC

MD Stuff:

1. So when all was said and done I felt like my application cycle was really similar to the app cycles of the average applicants from low tier MD schools and I 100% attribute this to having a very well-rounded application. To put it simply, on paper my application looked like an MD app. I cannot stress enough how important I believe this to be for any DO applying surgery with aspirations of matching an MD program. The alternative is to absolutely murder boards. After you go on enough interviews you start to see the same people over and over, and I’ve come to find out the other DO’s I repeatedly saw on my interviews all had very high USMLE scores, far above mine. In another testament of the power of a well-rounded application, I know other DO GS applicants with below average USMLE scores who got similar number of interviews as I did and also got university level invites. The trick was their apps were also very well rounded with great letters, some research output, and having both a Step 1 and Step 2.


2. if you have any desire at all to be considered for MD surgery you need to take USMLE. Both Step 1 and Step 2. There are even former DO programs now that will not interview COMLEX only applicants. With USMLE S1 going P/F it is even more crucial, as it will now be extremely easy for PDs to filter out anyone without a Pass. In their eyes the only reason a DO wouldn’t take Step is because you didn’t think you’d pass. End of story. I’m sure someone will have some outlier anecdote, but this is the reality at this point in time. It’s also important to have a Step 2 score before apps go out. Some applicants this year got very few invites at first, and then once they uploaded their Step 2 score they started coming in. Some PD’s will straight up ask you why you haven’t taken Step 2 yet, and if you plan on taking it.

2b. USMLE scores do matter, but they aren’t the end of the world. If you can put out an average USMLE score, or even 5-8 points below average, you are still very much in the hunt for a GS position if you are smart with your apps. To give some concrete numbers, I would suggest aiming for 230+ on Step 1 (until P/F), and 240+ on Step 2, but if you are in the bin below each of those numbers I wouldn’t give up hope, I would just have a plan in place in case you don’t match (or you can apply to a non-competitive back up).

3. apply broadly. If you place yourself in geographic constraints you need to decide if you really want to be a surgeon or not. Because if you limit your apps then your risk of not matching increases significantly. I personally would not recommend applying to anything less than 80 programs for any DO GS applicant. Unfortunately, the DO bias is still there in surgery, and it can be difficult to predict which programs will give you an interview. I got invites to place I hadn’t thought anything about other than when I clicked the box in ERAS, and I got ghosted by programs I thought I was a shoe-in for. This year some very good applicants were sweating bullets come rank list time because they got cocky and only applied to 40-50 programs, and only ended up having 5ish ranks. Trust me, you don’t want to be in that position.

4. only do aways at MD places if you are really wanting a specific program or trying to get a letter out of the month. In MD General Surgery away rotations are NOT used in the same way as DO auditions. Only 1/33 GS applicants match to a program where they did an away, and it is very common for people to rotate somewhere and then get ghosted for an interview. This obviously changes if you are really gunning for somewhere specific. Then have at it and go try and wow the crap out of them. Letters can be a good reason to do an away, as an academic MD letter can go a long way at other academic programs.

5. research is important to MD programs. You don’t need to have a lot of actual publications, but if you can get even 1-2 actual pubs and then a bunch of posters and stuff that will go a long way. Pretty much every MD applicant has some crappy research output on their app, so if you are the DO with nothing it’s going to hurt you. Even people with solid scores were hurt this year because that’s all they had going for them on their apps. This goes back to point 1, you need to look well rounded. Research really helps.

6. the straightforward reality is that the DO bias in MD Surgery programs is still very much alive. Even the best applicants will have a ceiling on how high they can climb on the MD ladder. Mayo took 2 DO’s this year, Case Western took their first ever, UC Irvine, LSU-S, MUSC, Missouri, and Hennepin County are some of the more notable DO GS matches this year. Notice that pretty much none of those are considered top tier. Mayo is the most elite on paper, but has some aspects of their program that aren’t for everyone and are one of the only top tier programs that has ever taken a DO, UW has had 1 or 2 match with them in the last few years. There are some DO’s at some true powerhouses, but they did not match there and found their way in through a prelim and other long and difficult avenues. UTSW, Utah, and Emory are 3 that come to mind fitting this mold. Do not expect to be them. The other academic matches I’ve seen have all been to places that have some sort of history of considering DO’s, most often fairly regularly. The point is that it is totally fine to apply to these top places, but you need to realistically expect to not travel past the mid-tier level, even if you are a superstar. That’s ok, there are some really great surgery programs out there that will give you a fair shake and treat you well.

DO Stuff:

1. The merger has been very beneficial to the DO surgery programs. Unfortunately, the AOA allowed some programs to exist that honestly were pretty terrible all around. Now that they at least have to meet ACGME minimums the quality has increased. Some of the better DO programs are now pretty similar to community MD programs. Some programs still have a long-ways to go and barely hit ACGME minimums and struggle both with quantity and variety of case load. For comparison most MD programs far surpass ACGME minimums.

2. Stats for DO programs are hit and miss. Some DO programs are very board heavy and want COMLEX 600+ or something really close to it. Others straight up don’t care about them at all and will rank you based solely on the audition. Auditions are still king, even for the programs that are board heavy, and you will be expected to rotate for the DO programs to really give you serious consideration. It was actually really irritating this year as most DO programs still only truly considered auditioners, and with COVID restrictions a lot of applicants were turned off by that since it showed some programs don’t give a crap about applicants at all. Stuff like that made me wonder how some programs actually treat their residents if that’s how they treat applicants during a pandemic. Oh, and research doesn’t really matter for DO programs. Sure, it will be nice to have something, but auditions and boards will be by far the most important aspect.

Speaking of boards, it is important to really recognize that some programs are technically “former DO” programs but aren’t really DO programs. A rule of thumb is that if a program is newer, is HCA, or is largely run by MDs then they most likely will not favor a DO applicant. Now I don’t know of any former AOA program that completely ignores DO’s, but some programs like Sky Ridge and Swedish in Denver now functionally require USMLE of DO applicants and already have MDs in them. They will interview and take applicants who haven’t rotated just as fast as someone who has.





In closing, the knowledge I gained from reading and learning of the experiences from those ahead of me was absolutely critical in preparing for my own application cycle. I would not have had the success I had without it. I hope I can pass that on and my experiences help future DO GS applicants, because, well, surgery is the best specialty. My DMs are always open.

You using the same avatar as @SouthernSurgeon used to use is confusing the hell out of me

 

[deleted898021]

Those fields are also "general surgery." I think you're overthinking it. The issue happens when all the research you have is ortho or cardiac related and you have the stink of "I6 Cardiac applicant" with gen surgery as a backup.



I don't remember all so clearly so I don't want to lead anyone astray, but I know for sure there was one at UPenn.

There was a DO gen surgery match at UPenn??

 

[DOVinciRobot]

There was a DO gen surgery match at UPenn??

No, someone interviewed. Could very well have been the person who matched CT at Michigan

 

[Banco]

There was a DO gen surgery match at UPenn??

No an interviewee. Although there was a DO plastic surgery match at Penn a few years ago.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Think systematic review, meta-analysis type papers. From what I’ve read of @DNC127 ‘s posts it’s fairly similar to the kind of stuff they did.

I had 1 first author, 3 second author, like 3 third, 1 5th, and 1 like 8th or something really low.

One paper was a basic science thing from UG, the rest were from med school and all of those were in surgical fields. My first author was a broad based surgery paper.

We can use pubs from undergrad when applying for residency?

 

[DOVinciRobot]

We can use pubs from undergrad when applying for residency?

Yes. Research is one of those things that goes on your CV forever, pubs in particular.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Yes. Research is one of those things that goes on your CV forever, pubs in particular.

Good to know!

 

[bnedr431]

Thank you for this, very informative!

 

[kyoshiwarrior27]

Just to bump the thread a bit, for people applying to GS in the future. My friend from Med school(DO school) with stats and research simmilar to OP applied to only 40 programs and has only 5 IV's... he is banking on the military match since he is HPSP. Def apply broadly to 80++ programs especially with virtual interviews. Don't want to be sweating bullets come match day.

I love this thread, I’m a first year DO HPSP student that wants to go general to CT. This advice is great! Did he apply to civilian residencies as well?

 

[deleted898021]

I love this thread, I’m a first year DO HPSP student that wants to go general to CT. This advice is great! Did he apply to civilian residencies as well?

Yes he did but to only 40, i would definitely apply to atleast 80-100 in the civilian match as well

 

[Surgeon D.O.]

Not that I will allow this to change the number of programs I apply to but how expensive does it become when you apply to 100+?

Need to budget before applying where I can lol.

 

[BobbyKoch]

Not that I will allow this to change the number of programs I apply to but how expensive does it become when you apply to 100+?

Need to budget before applying where I can lol.

I reserve the right to be wrong about this, but I think if you did 100 GS programs it would be $99 for the first ten, then $26 each for the next 90, so like $2,440 (!)

oy, I knew I would mess this up. I think it would be: 10 programs=$99, next ten= $170, next ten= $210, then last 70*$26= $1820, for a total of $2,299

fee chart and fee calculator:

Fees for ERAS® Residency Applications

Overview of the fees for residency applicants. ERAS residency application fees are based on the number of programs applied to.

students-residents.aamc.org

 

[hhht]

Not that I will allow this to change the number of programs I apply to but how expensive does it become when you apply to 100+?

Need to budget before applying where I can lol.

I applied to 105 programs this cycle. Total was $2,589.00 ($2,429.00 application fee + $80 USMLE transcript + $80 COMLEX transcript). I probably applied to too many safeties though.

 

[MCAT-boy]

Thank you for your post. I read every letter and was very helpful. I followed your advice and found GS research at a nearby academic hospital. I also found a leadership position in a free clinic where I will be controling the clinic flow and taking ECGs on pts. Do you think this position will help for GS app? I really don’t feel like doing it and want to focus more on research and with extra time just chill or study for boards

Edit: I am OMS-1

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Thank you for your post. I read every letter and was very helpful. I followed your advice and found GS research at a nearby academic hospital. I also found a leadership position in a free clinic where I will be controling the clinic flow and taking ECGs on pts. Do you think this position will help for GS app? I really don’t feel like doing it and want to focus more on research and with extra time just chill or study for boards

Edit: I am OMS-1

Do it if you want to do it. Don’t do it if you’re goal is to make your app for surgery more competitive. This isn’t pre-med anymore. That kind of stuff doesn’t give you a boost over anyone else in the application pool.

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Congrats on your success, OP. I'm a current OMS-1 and am focused on doing well in the preclinical years, but I'm trying to obviously bolster my extracurriculars as early as I can, which brings me to this aspect of your post:

I did however, spend years constructing what I believe to be a very well rounded and targeted General Surgery application (this is key, more on that later).

I read your other reply describing the variety of your pubs. What was the chronological/methodical way you went about doing that? Were you kicking the tires on certain sub-fields, or were you just actively trying to hit as many gen surg corners as you could knowing that you were going to apply GS regardless? I ask because I got plugged in with the ortho interest group and through our hospital's ortho chief resident got a spot on a joint & ankle research project (that I expect to either be 1st or 2nd author on), however my interest in pursuing ortho has wained (largely due to how cardio fascinated me). I know there is the I6 path out there, but I also know that could be an extremely risky route to pursue and need to seriously consider going GS instead and, like you, need to spend these next few years constructing a very well rounded GS application. I've gotten a great plug in with a guy doing thoracic surgery research for this summer, but what your thoughts on how to tread that fine line between just making a well-rounded GS application (with say, >half associated with a particular sub-surg field, and the rest being scattered in other GS topics vs doing a buckshot of surgical research topics without any disproportionately represented sub-fields)?

I hope that inquiry makes sense. Thanks for your time and I appreciate your other posts on SDN as well!

 

[deleted898021]

I love this thread, I’m a first year DO HPSP student that wants to go general to CT. This advice is great! Did he apply to civilian residencies as well?

Update my friend got a pgy-1 only Gen surgery spot in the Air Force. Matching air force or military Gen surgery is very hard. There's very few programs and if you don't match categorical or get civilian deferred (he didn't get civilian deferred) your forced to do a pgy-1 only spot and there's very few categorical spots, it's hard to get civilian deferred as well. He applied to only 40 in the civilian and only had 5 IV's but he believes that the fact that he was military had a lot to do with that. You have to disclose that to programs, and they are obviously less likely to waste a spot on an applicant that isn't guaranteed civilian deferred and will be forced into a spot in the military. I would take this information into consideration before committing to HPSP if you really want surgery as there is a real possibility of doing a prelim year even if you have good stats(230+ step 1 and 240+ step2)

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Update my friend got a pgy-1 only Gen surgery spot in the Air Force. Matching air force or military Gen surgery is very hard. There's very few programs and if you don't match categorical or get civilian deferred (he didn't get civilian deferred) your forced to do a pgy-1 only spot and there's very few categorical spots, it's hard to get civilian deferred as well. He applied to only 40 in the civilian and only had 5 IV's but he believes that the fact that he was military had a lot to do with that. You have to disclose that to programs, and they are obviously less likely to waste a spot on an applicant that isn't guaranteed civilian deferred and will be forced into a spot in the military. I would take this information into consideration before committing to HPSP if you really want surgery as there is a real possibility of doing a prelim year even if you have good stats(230+ step 1 and 240+ step2)

I wouldn’t say it’s very hard to match general surgery in the military. It usually fills, but the difficulty depends on the branch and the year. Your step score are also less important than how you do on your subIs/audition rotations, which are basically required as the biggest area for points in the match come from a subjective rating of the applicant.

Doing a prelim in the military is also a lot different than in the civilian world. At least in the Navy.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

What was the chronological/methodical way you went about doing that?

Decent grades. Good board scores. Surgery relevant research (first author GS pub), electives and sub-is in general surgery, and a PS that articulated exactly why general surgery and not a different surgical field. All my LORs were from general surgeon faculty minus my PI letter. My app basically screamed “I’m all in on GS.”

Were you kicking the tires on certain sub-fields, or were you just actively trying to hit as many gen surg corners as you could knowing that you were going to apply GS regardless?

I kicked the ortho tire for a few months.

I've gotten a great plug in with a guy doing thoracic surgery research for this summer, but what your thoughts on how to tread that fine line between just making a well-rounded GS application (with say, >half associated with a particular sub-surg field, and the rest being scattered in other GS topics vs doing a buckshot of surgical research topics without any disproportionately represented sub-fields)?

Do the thoracic research. Honestly do the ortho stuff too if you can fit it in. My first author GS pub came up a lot at interviews, but all my other research came up as well. Even though it was only the one GS pub, all my research was something surgical (ortho, ENT, etc). It also helped me articulate why I wanted to do GS over those other fields.

 

[deleted898021]

I wouldn’t say it’s very hard to match general surgery in the military. It usually fills, but the difficulty depends on the branch and the year. Your step score are also less important than how you do on your subIs/audition rotations, which are basically required as the biggest area for points in the match come from a subjective rating of the applicant.

Doing a prelim in the military is also a lot different than in the civilian world. At least in the Navy.

Hence I said that it's harder imo... because you get 2 audtions/SUB-I's basically and if you don't perform up to par your pretty much stuck doing a prelim year since only a certain number of people can get civilian deferred spot.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Hence I said that it's harder imo... because you get 2 audtions/SUB-I's basically and if you don't perform up to par your pretty much stuck doing a prelim year since only a certain number of people can get civilian deferred spot.

Right. You said very hard. I wouldn’t say it’s very hard. More difficult to match into a military program, but HPSP folks are more likely to get civilian deferred and I’ve yet to meet anyone who didn’t match somewhere. The only people I know who only got prelim years were not very competitive even just by civilian standards.

The Navy is whole different beast since most of the spots are prelims and only about 1/3 are categorical intern spots. But that’s increasing each year now and will probably be up to 10 or so over the next few years. That doesn’t include civilian deferred which can also be categorical.

But I digress. We’re mostly saying the same things.

 

[deleted898021]

Right. You said very hard. I wouldn’t say it’s very hard. More difficult to match into a military program, but HPSP folks are more likely to get civilian deferred and I’ve yet to meet anyone who didn’t match somewhere. The only people I know who only got prelim years were not very competitive even just by civilian standards.

The Navy is whole different beast since most of the spots are prelims and only about 1/3 are categorical intern spots. But that’s increasing each year now and will probably be up to 10 or so over the next few years. That doesn’t include civilian deferred which can also be categorical.

But I digress. We’re mostly saying the same things.

I agree with everything you said expect I know my friend and his stats, he is stuck doing a prelim year through the Air Force. He has very good stats and research and his auditions went okay. He would have gotten a categorical spot as well as more interviews if he was a civilian candidate.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree with everything you said expect I know my friend and his stats, he is stuck doing a prelim year through the Air Force. He has very good stats and research and his auditions went okay. He would have gotten a categorical spot as well as more interviews if he was a civilian candidate.

The Air Force is a little unique in that it has the fewest military residency spots and sends a lot of people to civilian deferred. Not sure why he wasn’t able to get anything but a prelim. As a USUHS student I know lots of HPSP students who haven’t had issues getting civilian interviews. Sucks that he had that outcome.

 

[deleted898021]

The Air Force is a little unique in that it has the fewest military residency spots and sends a lot of people to civilian deferred. Not sure why he wasn’t able to get anything but a prelim. As a USUHS student I know lots of HPSP students who haven’t had issues getting civilian interviews. Sucks that he had that outcome.

No clue but Covid has changed the game I feel like. Granted he applied to only 40 civilian programs so that might have played a role. He said getting civilian deferred is like a luck of draw for the Air Force and a certain number get stuck doing the prelim year.