thoughts on my app

[hoping I can]

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I'll try to be brief:

2 degrees:

BA-Liberal Arts. University of Toledo, 1998. GPA: 3.2

Horrific transcript. 10 withdrawls, a few F's, etc. Very sporratic.


BS-Zoology. University of Cincinnati, 2006. GPA: 4.0 MCAT:31


zero medical experience/volunteer work. Strong letters of rec.(3) from professors. No research.


Any shot at any US med schools?


Thanks so much for your time.

 

[Phenol312]

I'd say your MCAT is about average and you'd have to work on your extracurriculars.

then again I have the same total MCAT as you and same lack of clinical exposure. You should start an MDapp and post it here so people can see more detailed stats...also you become part of the database and you're experiences might give hope to others.

By the way...why does your profile say your predental and yet you're posting in pre-allo? just curious

 

[hoping I can]

I'd say your MCAT is about average and you'd have to work on your extracurriculars.

then again I have the same total MCAT as you and same lack of clinical exposure. You should start an MDapp and post it here so people can see more detailed stats...also you become part of the database and you're experiences might give hope to others.

By the way...why does your profile say your predental and yet you're posting in pre-allo? just curious

thanks for the quick response! The pre-dental thing was a mistake on my part. I'll fix it. I'll be sure to give a more detailed listing of my app as you suggested as well. Thanks again.

How do people generally gain relevant exposure without any previous experience? I can't imagine cold calling MD's and begging to shadow has a high success rate. Ha.

 

[speedyk]

Applying next year?

 

[hoping I can]

Applying next year?

thinking about it.

 

[Phenol312]

thanks for the quick response! The pre-dental thing was a mistake on my part. I'll fix it. I'll be sure to give a more detailed listing of my app as you suggested as well. Thanks again.

How do people generally gain relevant exposure without any previous experience? I can't imagine cold calling MD's and begging to shadow has a high success rate. Ha.

Actually, i think most of the people who get the shadowing gigs have connections. Sure you can go through regular volunteer channels but at least in the local hospitals around me its general menial work and not really anything where youre exposed to patients. Thankfully I managed to run into a nurse who has set up several students before and shes gonna swing something for me in january.

as for your GPA of 4.0 it won't hold you back a bit and neither will your MCAT. As for your prior history i dont think that would affect things too much but im not sure. The only thing that could hurt your right now is the lack of clinical exposure and volunteer work get those and nothing should stand in your way.

 

[hoping I can]

Actually, i think most of the people who get the shadowing gigs have connections. Sure you can go through regular volunteer channels but at least in the local hospitals around me its general menial work and not really anything where youre exposed to patients. Thankfully I managed to run into a nurse who has set up several students before and shes gonna swing something for me in january.

as for your GPA of 4.0 it won't hold you back a bit and neither will your MCAT. As for your prior history i dont think that would affect things too much but im not sure. The only thing that could hurt your right now is the lack of clinical exposure and volunteer work get those and nothing should stand in your way.

awesome. I really have no valid "excuse" or convenient explanation for my previous academic inconsistency; just lazy.🙂


Thanks again. I'm glad you don't think it will bite me in the ass.

 

[Phenol312]

awesome. I really have no valid "excuse" or convenient explanation for my previous academic inconsistency; just lazy.🙂


Thanks again. I'm glad you don't think it will bite me in the ass.

yeah im just one voice though so please take me with a grain of salt. perhaps some other people will care to give their input as well and we can get a more general opinion of how you fit into the grand scheme of things.

 

[The Nigal]

Actually, your old grades might hurt you. Its great that you have a very positive upward trend and a decent MCAT. However, the way AMCAS calculates your GPA could be very, very different from how your colleges view it. Schools wills often ignore Fs if you retake a class, but med schools will not. Also, you're two GPA will be averaged into one undergraduate GPA. On the plus side, your BCPM (science) GPA should be quite high considering that most of your early classes will not be considered here.

I don't want to discourage you, it looks like you have a pretty good start. In the meantime, find a volunteer job, figure out what your GPA might be, and make sure your applications get turned in early. I'm sure you'll be fine.

 

[custard]

Minimal chance unless you get some clinical exposure.

Volunteer in a clinical setting. Arrange shadowing (I sent e-mails to a lot of docs at my local teaching hospital...the teaching hospital part is key I think - anyway this worked. I shadowed three docs). You don't need prior experience to start!!!!

Without clinical experience the med schools will wonder how you could know you wish to enter this profession.

 

[Phenol312]

Minimal chance unless you get some clinical exposure.

Volunteer in a clinical setting. Arrange shadowing (I sent e-mails to a lot of docs at my local teaching hospital...the teaching hospital part is key I think - anyway this worked. I shadowed three docs). You don't need prior experience to start!!!!

Without clinical experience the med schools will wonder how you could know you wish to enter this profession.

Isn't that what the personal statement is for?

Not everyone can get clinical exposure...i think its a bit overrated. The main purpose of your EC's is to show that you have the ability to get into something and be passionate and stick with it. Yes, shadowing fills this requirement but you don't really "do" anything. At least thats not what I've heard. Would you rather have an applicant with just shadowing experience or one who spent several years in a volunteer activity thats not medically related?

 

[Myuu]

Actually, i think most of the people who get the shadowing gigs have connections. Sure you can go through regular volunteer channels but at least in the local hospitals around me its general menial work and not really anything where youre exposed to patients. Thankfully I managed to run into a nurse who has set up several students before and shes gonna swing something for me in january.
<snip!>

I do lots of menial things, but get a ton of patient interaction as a volunteer. Most of that is because I transport a lot and end up waiting for people's vehicles. Hooray for anesthesia!


Ditto that bit about the GPA being potentially harmful. I'm sitting on two years worth of 3.something and 2.9 in a previous major. Dunno how that'll go over. C'moooooooon upward trend effect! :/

 

[Phenol312]

I do lots of menial things, but get a ton of patient interaction as a volunteer. Most of that is because I transport a lot and end up waiting for people's vehicles. Hooray for anesthesia!


Ditto that bit about the GPA being potentially harmful. I'm sitting on two years worth of 3.something and 2.9 in a previous major. Dunno how that'll go over. C'moooooooon upward trend effect! :/

haha i like how you included the snip on my quote. I have a few friends who have volunteered at hospitals and they've said it wasn't very fruitful so i guess i have a bias from what they've told me

Apparently they just do the stuff anyone can do and they didn't learn anything or spend time with the doctors. Kinda like they were just bodies filling space to do the simple tasks. For me, that would be kinda frustrating because I would want to get something out of it which is why shadowing is more appealing. As for my friends they've since been accepted ... rawr.

 

[custard]

Isn't that what the personal statement is for?

Not everyone can get clinical exposure...i think its a bit overrated. The main purpose of your EC's is to show that you have the ability to get into something and be passionate and stick with it. Yes, shadowing fills this requirement but you don't really "do" anything. At least thats not what I've heard. Would you rather have an applicant with just shadowing experience or one who spent several years in a volunteer activity thats not medically related?

Well the PS certainly explains "why medicine" but I think they look at your ECs to see if your thoughts and feelings are based on concrete experiences (experiences that have "tested" your desire to be a doc). It seems to me that they want to see if you've had some kind of experiences in medicine so that you have a realistic view of what medicine is like. I agree with your point about ECs to an extent... non-clinical ECs are also important because they can show dedication and commitment to an interest outside of medicine.

 

[hoping I can]

I wonder if I could just "forget" to mention my previous degree...

 

[Phenol312]

I wonder if I could just "forget" to mention my previous degree...

If they do a background check and it comes up i think that would qualify as some kind of falsification. Damn if this kind of thing holds you back i have lost all faith in the justice governing the application system.

it seems to me that there is no " golden combination " for getting in...its just one big crap shoot. 😀

 

[Myuu]

haha i like how you included the snip on my quote. I have a few friends who have volunteered at hospitals and they've said it wasn't very fruitful so i guess i have a bias from what they've told me

Apparently they just do the stuff anyone can do and they didn't learn anything or spend time with the doctors. Kinda like they were just bodies filling space to do the simple tasks. For me, that would be kinda frustrating because I would want to get something out of it which is why shadowing is more appealing. As for my friends they've since been accepted ... rawr.

Oh, well, anyone could do it if anyone had the time. 😛 We're very, very busy most days (endoscopy and pre/post-op all in one spot). You do get to see all kinds of stuff though!

Now, in emergency, I didn't get to _see_ much of anything. There are people around, including doctors _and patients_, who will talk to you at length if they're not busy.


Saw a MRSA case last week, actually. Granted they don't let us in there, but the patient looked pretty human to me. 😛

 

[Phenol312]

Oh, well, anyone could do it if anyone had the time. 😛 We're very, very busy most days (endoscopy and pre/post-op all in one spot). You do get to see all kinds of stuff though!

Now, in emergency, I didn't get to _see_ much of anything. There are people around, including doctors _and patients_, who will talk to you at length if they're not busy.


Saw a MRSA case last week, actually. Granted they don't let us in there, but the patient looked pretty human to me. 😛

yeah i have to work to pay the bills so for me shadowing seems like it would be the most effective since i already have racked up a ton of volunteering hours even though they're not health related.

I'm looking forward to spending some time with this pathologist I cant wait hehe.

 

[drizzt3117]

Phenol, the fact that your friends that have clinical experience have acceptances and you being w/o interviews is not helping your argument that clinical exp is overrated.

 

[Myuu]

yeah i have to work to pay the bills so for me shadowing seems like it would be the most effective since i already have racked up a ton of volunteering hours even though they're not health related.

I'm looking forward to spending some time with this pathologist I cant wait hehe.

Ahh, bills. Money. That's what the bookselling's for, though it pays at about 2.5 gallons of gas and a bag of chips per hour.

 

[howdy2u]

I'll try to be brief:

2 degrees:

BA-Liberal Arts. University of Toledo, 1998. GPA: 3.2

Horrific transcript. 10 withdrawls, a few F's, etc. Very sporratic.


BS-Zoology. University of Cincinnati, 2006. GPA: 4.0 MCAT:31


zero medical experience/volunteer work. Strong letters of rec.(3) from professors. No research.


Any shot at any US med schools?


Thanks so much for your time.

How do you know that you want to become a doctor if you haven't had any medically-related experiences (clinical work, volunteering, shadowing, research)?

You're numbers aren't terrible since you've showed an upward trend...and you pulled off an okay MCAT score. You should devote this year to gaining a great deal of clinical/medical exposure to allow an adcom (and yourself) to know that you really should become a physician.

good luck

 

[Phenol312]

Phenol, the fact that your friends that have clinical experience have acceptances and you being w/o interviews is not helping your argument that clinical exp is overrated.

yes they have the clinical experience but they weren't enthusiastic at all...i think a decent adcom would be able to sniff that out in a second, don't you?

Unless my friends are really good BS artists in which case if you can BS an adcom i've lost all faith in the system.

Also, plenty of people who have clinical exposure in spades don't get interviews either but they probably have other weaknesses in their application. I know the only weakness in my application is my EC's and im working to fix that. I just find it hard to believe that something like not having clinical exposure would bar you for getting any interviews at all.

 

[drizzt3117]

yes they have the clinical experience but they weren't enthusiastic at all...i think a decent adcom would be able to sniff that out in a second, don't you?

I doubt it. Do you really think they are going to tell someone at an interview that they're not enthusiastic about volunteering?

Unless my friends are really good BS artists in which case if you can BS an adcom i've lost all faith in the system.

Actions speak louder than words.

Also, plenty of people who have clinical exposure in spades don't get interviews either but they probably have other weaknesses in their application.

Having clinical experience generally won't get you an interview in and of itself, but it can certainly prevent you from getting one. Most premeds have clinical experience, so if you don't, you'll stand out in a negative way.

I know the only weakness in my application is my EC's and im working to fix that. I just find it hard to believe that something like not having clinical exposure would bar you for getting any interviews at all.

Honestly, that's not true. Your GPA is ~0.3 below the average of matriculants and your MCAT is right at the average. Throw in lack of clinical experience and you can probably see why you don't have any interviews. I told you this a month ago, as well, and it's as true now as it was then. The clinical experience part is relatively easy to fix but the GPA is likely not. That said, any improvement in GPA can only help you.

I guess the easiest way to look at it is this:

The average matriculant has 3.65 GPA, 31 MCAT, and significant clinical experience. You only have one of the three, so...

I'm not trying to bash you but you did mention in another thread that you'd like realistic advice. I would advise you work on your ECs and GPA if possible.

 

[Ginzo]

To the OP, your question is impossible to answer without knowing what your AMCAS BCMP and AMCAS Overall GPAs work out to.

You need to get the little worksheet they have, follow the rules, and figure out what those GPAs work out to. A low GPA in either category can sink you. And those Fs are *really* going to hurt. My guess is that you're going to be much closer to 3.0 than 4.0.

You want to get your GPA as close to the average for matriculants as possible. Some additional coursework might help, but this could be really hard considering that you probably have a ton of hours already with your two degrees.

An uptrend in grades is good, but an uptrend does not make up for an unacceptably low GPA. When you apply the schools are going to look at your numbers, see if you have the requisite ECs, and skim your personal statement. Pre-meds on here like to ask all kinds of psychotic questions that assume a level of detail that adcoms just don't have time for. They're just looking for obvious holes in your app.

If you don't have research experience, you should probably get that in addition to clinical exposure. Ideally, your research will lead to publication, with primary authorship being best.

Oh, and be ready to explain your previous poor performance in your interviews. I'm in a similar situation to you, and in both of my interviews so far the interviewer has gone into great detail about coursework that I did 10 years ago. The advantage of this, however, is that it gives them less time to ask those nagging ethical questions.

Good luck!

 

[drizzt3117]

To the OP, your question is impossible to answer without knowing what your AMCAS BCMP and AMCAS Overall GPAs work out to.

You need to get the little worksheet they have, follow the rules, and figure out what those GPAs work out to. A low GPA in either category can sink you. And those Fs are *really* going to hurt. My guess is that you're going to be much closer to 3.0 than 4.0.

You want to get your GPA as close to the average for matriculants as possible. Some additional coursework might help, but this could be really hard considering that you probably have a ton of hours already with your two degrees.

An uptrend in grades is good, but an uptrend does not make up for an unacceptably low GPA. When you apply the schools are going to look at your numbers, see if you have the requisite ECs, and skim your personal statement. Pre-meds on here like to ask all kinds of psychotic questions that assume a level of detail that adcoms just don't have time for. They're just looking for obvious holes in your app.

If you don't have research experience, you should probably get that in addition to clinical exposure. Ideally, your research will lead to publication, with primary authorship being best.

Oh, and be ready to explain your previous poor performance in your interviews. I'm in a similar situation to you, and in both of my interviews so far the interviewer has gone into great detail about coursework that I did 10 years ago. The advantage of this, however, is that it gives them less time to ask those nagging ethical questions.

Good luck!

I'd agree with this and echo that calculating your AMCAS GPA is going to help you make decisions. That said, if the GPA is really close to what the poster listed, I don't think it'd be that much of an obstacle.

 

[Bacchus]

In regards to volunteering. It doesn't have to be clinical but you must somehow get clinical exposure. It is too much of a risk for school X, Y, or Z to take you in to find out 2 years down the road, when you're about to start rotations, that medicine just isn't for you. Clinical volunteering kills two birds with one stone but can sometimes be boring at best. Shadowing usually is about connections but everyone has one of these connections. Its called the FP that you're going to currently. That's the easiest place to look and he or she may be able to get you into another office or hospital based on connections. Additionally, hospital volunteer departments, especially teaching, will usually run both a structured volunteer progam and an additional shadowing program. You need to check out which is possible through your local (teaching) hospital.

OP, its great to see you got your act together. Zoology, with its upper level sciences (and a 4.0 GPA) will help you out immensely I feel. However, besides the 4.0 you're "average." That MCAT score is good, and will help you out a lot but its along the lines of 3.5/30 that everyone is talking about. That being said, you need something else to "differentiate" you from the pack and that would most likely be research in this sense, but do not fail to get the volunteer/clinical experience that all schools are looking for. I have talked with Admissions Directors and they have told me for certain schools you will not be considered if there is no volunteer or clinical exposure work on your application. Apply 2009 and start volunteering as soon as possible in a hospital/clinic. If you're lucky enough to be an EMT then use that as exposure and experience.

 

[0Complications]

I wonder if I could just "forget" to mention my previous degree...

I wouldn't recommend this.

How does you're GPA come out when you calculate your total GPA? I think this is going to be pretty important. So, I agree with previous posts. Although, I also think that your new GPA, assuming your pass the initial screen (which it seems like you will), will help you tremendously. You're new GPA shows that you are not only a good student, but that you can excel in science classes.

I also agree with the consensus about your volunteer/research experience. You should definitely at least try to volunteer or shadow a few specialists, because this not only shows that you are at least somewhat familiar with the profession, but that you are still interested in it. Just being able to have a general idea as to what medicine is like in a hospital setting is an invaluable experience.

Have you been working through school?

 

[diosa428]

I know the only weakness in my application is my EC's and im working to fix that. I just find it hard to believe that something like not having clinical exposure would bar you for getting any interviews at all.

I agree with drizz, your GPA is really not good at all. A lot of schools will screen you out just based on your GPA alone. And most candidates have SOME type of clinical exposure, whether it's volunteering at a hospital, shadowing, working, whatever. How, exactly, did you answer the question "why medicine?" without having any exposure to the field? Medical schools don't want to accept people that don't know what they're getting into.

 

[Just Joshin]

Also, plenty of people who have clinical exposure in spades don't get interviews either but they probably have other weaknesses in their application. I know the only weakness in my application is my EC's and im working to fix that. I just find it hard to believe that something like not having clinical exposure would bar you for getting any interviews at all.

I think you're missing the point of clinical experience. How can you truly know you want to be a physician without having some contact with sick people (and I'm not talking family)? What's going to happen when you ace the first two years of med school to get to day one of year three when a stranger in the emergency room vomits on you? What's going to happen when you see your first gunshot victim with his brain blown out? What about your first patient who dies? How are you going to deal with cranky patients who don't like hospitals and absolutely hate you and everything about you? Can you still be compassionate and understanding or will you decide that sick people suck?

You can sit here now and say "well, I'll deal with it. No biggie," but you won't convince an adcom until you put yourself in a clinical setting and at least experience *some* of that. Schools don't want to take a chance on someone who might possibly get to third year and decide medicine just isn't for him and that he hates sick people.

 

[Just Joshin]

I wonder if I could just "forget" to mention my previous degree...

Some schools do background checks and it will no doubt come up. You'll also be subjected to background checks before third year rotations and after graduation before residency. If it comes out before your acceptance, you'll be blackballed from ever getting in. If it comes out after you're already accepted, you'll be kicked out. If it comes out after you graduate, they can revoke your degree and the medical board can deny your license.

Report it. It was your mistake. Own up to it like a big boy.

 

[st0w]

Some schools do background checks and it will no doubt come up. You'll also be subjected to background checks before third year rotations and after graduation before residency. If it comes out before your acceptance, you'll be blackballed from ever getting in. If it comes out after you're already accepted, you'll be kicked out. If it comes out after you graduate, they can revoke your degree and the medical board can deny your license.

Report it. It was your mistake. Own up to it like a big boy.

Absolutely correct. There are even services that focus specifically on academic verification - degrees, programs, etc. If they find out you lied about any of this on your application, it can be cause for immediate revocation of acceptance/degree.

On the plus side, you can spin it positively if you can show you've learned and grown from it. I had a particularly bad year my third year in undergrad, and it has come up in most every interview I've had. But since I put time into thinking about it and realizing how that bad year has made me stronger, I've been able to convincingly discuss it with interviewers without any apology or remorse. And most have them have said it's clear how far I've come from that year. A bad period on your history isn't quite the permanent disqualification that some on SDN might have you believe, as long as you can explain it clearly and thoughtfully.

In addition to what everybody else has said, clinical experience IS critical. You might not need ten years of intense experience, but you need to have some experience dealing with patients and being around sick people. As LizzyM says, a clinical experience is one in which "you are close enough to smell patients." And I've definitely been asked what my clinical experiences have meant to me and taught me about patient care in numerous interviews. It really is true that if you don't have it, adcoms can't be confident that you know what you're getting yourself into.

And BTW, I've spent a good amount of time as an ER volunteer and I can tell you that if you actually make yourself useful to the staff and show your interest, they'll let you watch and observe when the really cool stuff happens. But it requires initiative on your part, otherwise they're too busy to make it happen for you.