Thoughts on my situation

[Iamnotme]

So I wanted to ask others on what they think about my situation. I'm a PGY-2 in a competitive specialty and wanting to switch into a less competitive specialty. Various reasons why, and I submitted my app. early, I have a letter from the specialty I want to switch into, research and rotations, yet I am not getting interviews yet. I am a US grad, went to a pretty decent school, have a compelling PS.

Just got off the phone with one program and the coordinator telling me that SHE is pretty much done inviting people for IVs and that I'm not invited because they are a categorical program. She also asks me what I have been doing since graduating med school which is easy to see from my application had it been read. I sort of pan applied to increase my chances.

Can anyone tell me if they think my chances are less because I'm trying to switch or something? Is this common that programs won't/don't want to take people from other specialties?

It seems like my application is not been reviewed either. Thoughts?!

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[VisionaryTics]

So I wanted to ask others on what they think about my situation. I'm a PGY-2 in a competitive specialty and wanting to switch into a less competitive specialty. Various reasons why, and I submitted my app. early, I have a letter from the specialty I want to switch into, research and rotations, yet I am not getting interviews yet. I am a US grad, went to a pretty decent school, have a compelling PS.

Just got off the phone with one program and the coordinator telling me that SHE is pretty much done inviting people for IVs and that I'm not invited because they are a categorical program. She also asks me what I have been doing since graduating med school which is easy to see from my application had it been read. I sort of pan applied to increase my chances.

Can anyone tell me if they think my chances are less because I'm trying to switch or something? Is this common that programs won't/don't want to take people from other specialties?

It seems like my application is not been reviewed either. Thoughts?!

Do you have a letter from the program director of your current residency?

 

[Iamnotme]

What do you mean?

 

[Stellar Clouds]

There certainly could be some hesitancy on the program's side...who's to say that you wouldn't switch out of this new specialty after a year or two?

 

[Iamnotme]

People sometimes change residencies.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Well, you've been vague here but very clear in this other thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=1033949

You're a radiology resident, and you're applying to PM&R, and a single program when you called told you that all of their IV spots were gone.

Thoughts:

1. Programs might decide to interview only fresh grads. That's their choice. Most will be more flexible.
2. Sounds like the PA you spoke to had no idea what they were doing. Not all programs will be like that.
3. If you're currently a prelim who has advanced matched into Rads, then you have a BIG problem. It's against the rules for any program to consider/interview you until you obtain a match waiver from your rads match. Getting one is easy -- you simply request it, state that you've changed your mind about specialty, and you'll get it. Will take 2-3 weeks at a minimum.

What you CANT do is keep your rads spot, try to get a PM&R spot, and then give up the rads spot afterwards.

 

[Iamnotme]

Darn, I opened the other post about my previous thread and answered it there.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Darn, I opened the other post about my previous thread and answered it there. *sigh*

But to reiterate, no violation as I'm currently in my rads spot, and I'm mostly concerned that programs will follow LSU's poor example of not actually looking at the WHOLE app. but rather say hey this applicatn graduated x number of years ago without continuing to read oh and the applicant has been in a competitive residency since then! Big difference if I'm in residency vs. if I've just been eating cheetos at home or something.

They have every right to do that.

Most programs will look at your whole app.

 

[Iamnotme]

I'm getting more and more frustrated.

 

[Doctor Bob]

What could possibly be the problem?

Lots of things. If it were me, I'd be wondering why you want to jump specialties all of a sudden. And unless there's a good and convincing answer in your application packet, then I'd set it aside until later in the interview season. If I go through all of the other applicants and don't fill my interview spots then I'd extend an offer to you. If I fill all of my spots before coming back around to your application then, well, I got what I wanted... people who haven't burned any federal funding yet and people who have less of a chance of jumping ship later on.

 

[Iamnotme]

Fair enough

 

[Smurfette]

Most people I know who have changed specialties from one categorical program to another did so within their same institution, or back to where they went to med school. In other words, they used their own connections rather than blindly going thru the match. Sure, some people get interviews through the match....but I don't know many people who ended up somewhere where they didn't know someone, or where one of their LOR writers knew someone and made a call on their behalf. I believe PDs can filter out people based on year of graduation and such as well; you might be getting filtered based on that without any other aspects of your app being reviewed. And I surmise most PDs screen people out BEFORE reading your PS based on filter criteria such as step I/II scores, class rank, year of graduation, FMG status, etc.

 

[Shikima]

I think that anyone who reads my personal statement will clearly know why I want to switch specialties, and I never understand why people say that - if you are suggesting that people never switch specialties, that seems silly. I know of a few people that have switched, one to Wash U and one to Tufts, from completely different specialties. So let's not be silly. And I have more than enough funding per se given that I matched into a longer specialty training.

Your syntax brings up some question with frustration and intolerance.

Could your statement or other parts of your application also convey this?

 

[VisionaryTics]

Your syntax brings up some question with frustration and intolerance.

Could your statement or other parts of your application also convey this?

Noticed that as well. No one is asking unreasonable questions, but OP has been snippy and defensive.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Smurfette may be on to the easy answer: programs may very well filter out for year of graduation and anyone, regardless of whether or not they are in residency or have a good reason to change specialties (ie, the PS isn't getting read), isn't being reviewed during the first pass. It has also been my experience that most who switch specialties do so with connections and often end up in the same hospital or an affiliated one.

 

[Shikima]

Smurfette may be on to the easy answer: programs may very well filter out for year of graduation and anyone, regardless of whether or not they are in residency or have a good reason to change specialties (ie, the PS isn't getting read), isn't being reviewed during the first pass. It has also been my experience that most who switch specialties do so with connections and often end up in the same hospital or an affiliated one.

 

[Iamnotme]

Smurfette may be on to the easy answer: programs may very well filter out for year of graduation and anyone, regardless of whether or not they are in residency or have a good reason to change specialties (ie, the PS isn't getting read), isn't being reviewed during the first pass. It has also been my experience that most who switch specialties do so with connections and often end up in the same hospital or an affiliated one.

You know the only person who has been able to provide neutral non attacking comments have been aPD and smurfette. Their comments are appreciated. Judgments that don't contribute to anything good are pointless. Lastly I decided to use my time wisely and simply call programs 90 percent of which have not reviewed my app yet bc it was not entirely done til a few days ago or bc they are not reviewing until mspe.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I've not seen a single person in this thread "attack" you.

 

[HomeSkool]

You know the only person who has been able to provide neutral non attacking comments have been aPD and smurfette. Their comments are appreciated. Judgments that don't contribute to anything good are pointless. Lastly I decided to use my time wisely and simply call programs 90 percent of which have not reviewed my app yet bc it was not entirely done til a few days ago or bc they are not reviewing until mspe.

Actually, what I thought as I read the thread is that you were getting remarkably snippy with people who seemed only to want to help you.

We know you're under a lot of stress right now. Take a deep breath, step back for a moment, and don't let your frustration with your situation color your perception of people's intentions. People here are trying to help, not attack.

 

[Doctor Bob]

So let's not be silly.

Stop.

You are on an internet forum asking for opinions on your situation from people who don't know you. So what you are going to get are snap first impressions because that's all we can give.

Coincidentially, often times the snap first impressions that PDs and APDs have when they review applications can make the difference between getting an interview and getting rejected. So don't get upset when we give you our first impressions.

Now, I'm not sure why you thought my response was "silly". Because it's one of the criteria I use when I'm reviewing applications. I was giving you a straight response to your question.

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And what is perhaps more important for you to keep in mind...
While this is an anonymous internet forum, you are free to say whatever you like. But keep your interaction professional. (I can't think of how to say this that it doesn't sound threatening, but trust me it's not... it is strictly well intentioned advice). You are talking with a bunch of academic attendings; we all know people in other areas. And if we start talking with our PM&R PD friends about this radiology resident who wants to switch to PM&R but is being a real a** online, then it will only get your application reviewed and filtered faster.

The majority of people on here are genuinely trying to be helpful. But medicine is a small world and if you start to irritate people (even in an anonymous forum) it can come back to bite you.

 

[Iamnotme]

Stop.

You are on an internet forum asking for opinions on your situation from people who don't know you. So what you are going to get are snap first impressions because that's all we can give.

Coincidentially, often times the snap first impressions that PDs and APDs have when they review applications can make the difference between getting an interview and getting rejected. So don't get upset when we give you our first impressions.

Now, I'm not sure why you thought my response was "silly". Because it's one of the criteria I use when I'm reviewing applications. I was giving you a straight response to your question.

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And what is perhaps more important for you to keep in mind...
While this is an anonymous internet forum, you are free to say whatever you like. But keep your interaction professional. (I can't think of how to say this that it doesn't sound threatening, but trust me it's not... it is strictly well intentioned advice). You are talking with a bunch of academic attendings; we all know people in other areas. And if we start talking with our PM&R PD friends about this radiology resident who wants to switch to PM&R but is being a real a** online, then it will only get your application reviewed and filtered faster.

The majority of people on here are genuinely trying to be helpful. But medicine is a small world and if you start to irritate people (even in an anonymous forum) it can come back to bite you.

I don't exactly know what you are referring to. I have not been "snippy" or rude or anything of the sort. It's one thing for people to give neutral advice. You know if I apply to a program and they tell me well your scores are not what our residents typically score in. Fine, I can accept that. Or if they wanted years of research and they said well you don't have enough publications. Fine. That's totally fine. But what you are suggesting is something rather petty.

Suggesting that you will trash an application because someone wants to switch into a different field, and that somehow that person is "less" or "jumping ship" is pretty demeaning in my opinion. You are free, welcome and encouraged to make any objective comments, I certainly am glad to listen to them. But suggesting that somehow there is some negative intent, or lack of worthwhileness (I realize that's not a word) in a person's application because they want to switch to a different field does not seem right.

You take a completely different field, for example, such as Anesthesia, Rad onc, etc. and they frequently accept residents from other fields. So clearly it's not that atypical or wrong or inappropriate to want to switch.

 

[Makati2008]

I don't exactly know what you are referring to. I have not been "snippy" or rude or anything of the sort. It's one thing for people to give neutral advice. You know if I apply to a program and they tell me well your scores are not what our residents typically score in. Fine, I can accept that. Or if they wanted years of research and they said well you don't have enough publications. Fine. That's totally fine. But what you are suggesting is something rather petty.

Suggesting that you will trash an application because someone wants to switch into a different field, and that somehow that person is "less" or "jumping ship" is pretty demeaning in my opinion. You are free, welcome and encouraged to make any objective comments, I certainly am glad to listen to them. But suggesting that somehow there is some negative intent, or lack of worthwhileness (I realize that's not a word) in a person's application because they want to switch to a different field does not seem right.

You take a completely different field, for example, such as Anesthesia, Rad onc, etc. and they frequently accept residents from other fields. So clearly it's not that atypical or wrong or inappropriate to want to switch.

You need to take time to do some self realization. You are coming off a tad arrogant when these attendings are trying to he helpful.

If I were you, I would say thank you for the advice because again medicine is SUCH a small world(even sdn) and your temperament is not helping your cause. It seems like you feel entitled to a PMR spot but I hope I am wrong.

 

[gutonc]

I don't exactly know what you are referring to. I have not been "snippy" or rude or anything of the sort. It's one thing for people to give neutral advice. You know if I apply to a program and they tell me well your scores are not what our residents typically score in. Fine, I can accept that. Or if they wanted years of research and they said well you don't have enough publications. Fine. That's totally fine. But what you are suggesting is something rather petty.

Suggesting that you will trash an application because someone wants to switch into a different field, and that somehow that person is "less" or "jumping ship" is pretty demeaning in my opinion. You are free, welcome and encouraged to make any objective comments, I certainly am glad to listen to them. But suggesting that somehow there is some negative intent, or lack of worthwhileness (I realize that's not a word) in a person's application because they want to switch to a different field does not seem right.

You take a completely different field, for example, such as Anesthesia, Rad onc, etc. and they frequently accept residents from other fields. So clearly it's not that atypical or wrong or inappropriate to want to switch.

I think you're missing the point. Nobody is suggesting that it's wrong or inappropriate to want to switch specialties (although I think that people who do switch greatly overestimate how common it is...based on the folks I know, I'd put it at 2-4% at the most, but I'm admittedly pulling that number out of my ass).

What we are suggesting is that it's totally reasonable (and well within their rights) for PDs to prefer applicants that aren't switching specialties to those that are. The reasons for this range from trivial to serious. Maybe YOG is an issue (2 years out is better than 5, but not as good as a fresh grad).

You may think that prior training is a good thing, but more often than not it's a negative (or neutral) to PDs. Maybe they've been burned before by people who switched into/out of their program and don't want to take the chance. Maybe they just don't like people from your med school. Who knows? You're basing your entire argument on one experience/interaction. I doubt every PMR program you've applied to has sent out all their interviews at this point.

Relax...seriously. You've done what you can to this point (including having rotations and LORs from your new proposed specialty). It will probably work out for you in the end but may not.

PS...Snippy and rude is pretty much all you've been when people have answered your questions. Consider a serious attitude adjustment before interview time.

 

[Iamnotme]

We disagree.

 

[johhnybgood]

Iamnotme,

It's ok to be wrong sometimes. The more you defend, point fingers and defer blame, the worse the picture you paint of yourself. I'm sure you'll do fine but leave the sensitivity at the door.

Good luck on all your interviews!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I think you're running into three problems.

First, you're probably panicking needlessly. Chances are, you'll get a bunch of interviews. One of the problems with SDN is you start to see people posting about IV's, and you panic. Sans SDN, you wouldn't even know, and would probably assume they were still processing your application

Second, sounds like your app wasn't complete. That may explain a bunch. We don't look at applications until they are complete.

Third, your application is atypical. Most programs probably have a system -- if someone fits a certain profile (new grad, good USMLE, nice letter, etc) they may get put in a "Yes" pile and then the PD quickly looks through them, and they get interviewed. Your application ends up in the Atypical pile, and it takes longer to review it and decide what to do.

 

[Iamnotme]

I think you are right!

 

[dragonfly99]

I think you are a little nuts to switch from rads to PM and R, but good luck.
I also agree w/the post of smurfette and aPD. If they have OK programs, then consider your med school's PM and R program, or the one where you are doing your radiology residency, if they also have PM and R. Also, use personal connections of people who wrote your LOR's, if necessary. You can ask them (nicely, and in a nonpanicky way) if they could maybe put a good word in for you at "x" program, where they trained or know people.

 

[Iamnotme]

That's not nice.

 

[rokshana]

Well I am not nuts, and as mentioned given that rads is far more competitive than PMR I think it would be clear that there must be a good reason for me to switch, so you'd think most programs would give me a chance. Unfortunately my residency program does not have PMR and my med school has just about every possible specialty except PMR ironically enough.

I have thought about asking one of my letter writers to put in a good word for me but this place happens to be one of the most competitive programs in the country so while it would be great if he went to bat for me, I do see that I'm sure this program in particular has awsome applicants, so it's a little hard. The other program I rotated at, while I guess it's better to go there vs. not matching, is certainly far far far down the list of program's I'd like to go to. And given taht I"m switching from rads, I would like to end up at a good program.

I think that part of the program is that some programs may be confused, I think what I did -writing the PD and explaining briefly what I wanted, and having my application being pointed out to them- is what does the trick. Having talked to a number of programs as well there seems to be less number of applicants than spots. I believe the most # of applicants I have heard about is slightly under 300, with most programs having about 200 applications, which will leave a large # of spots unfilled. But I think programs will do what they want, and will end up having people cancel post MSPE when the better programs give out IVS, and will default on those that they have not interviewed yet.

A few progams have said that no decision has been made but I have not been rejected - that to me says, hey we don't think you have a bad app, we just think we can get the handful of recent grad, AOA, PhD applicants.

IMHO, you need to adjust you attitude a bit...while as a US senior, you were a competitive enough applicant to get a radiology position, you are now not at the top of the heap...you have baggage (ie a red flag) that makes you a weaker candidate...your "competitiveness" in getting rads, has very little bearing on getting a PM&R spot now (if you had applied as a 4th yeat, then maybe you would have gotten into one of the better PM&R programs)...if you want PM&R , then you are going to have to be willing to go to A program and let go being so picky...you don't have that luxury anymore...

 

[Iamnotme]

I very much disagree.

 

[Makati2008]

I very much disagree. I still am very much competitive. Only in your mind would someone who is already in a residency, a competitive one at that, would not be competitive. A red flag is a NEGATIVE thing - failures, being a foreign grad, no rotations, etc and even then you can match into something like this. Having a residency is no such thing. And given that this past week late in the week I was given interviews from some top notch programs, you are dead wrong. Perhaps if I had actual "red flags"you would be right.

As I said to others, if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say don't say anything.

You can emulate aPD, smurfette or even dragonfly who have posted well thought out, intelligent helpful posts.

All I can say is smh and wow

 

[imer]

I very much disagree. I still am very much competitive. Only in your mind would someone who is already in a residency, a competitive one at that, would not be competitive. A red flag is a NEGATIVE thing - failures, being a foreign grad, no rotations, etc and even then you can match into something like this. Having a residency is no such thing. And given that this past week late in the week I was given interviews from some top notch programs, you are dead wrong. Perhaps if I had actual "red flags"you would be right.

As I said to others, if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say don't say anything.

You can emulate aPD, smurfette or even dragonfly who have posted well thought out, intelligent helpful posts.

It goes both ways...

Why do you respond to every little perceived slight? Your situation is only what you make it to be - you want to change so be positive and move forward. You got a lot more thoughtful responses than your attitude deserved. Play nice next time.

 

[VisionaryTics]

I very much disagree. I still am very much competitive. Only in your mind would someone who is already in a residency, a competitive one at that, would not be competitive. A red flag is a NEGATIVE thing - failures, being a foreign grad, no rotations, etc and even then you can match into something like this. Having a residency is no such thing. And given that this past week late in the week I was given interviews from some top notch programs, you are dead wrong. Perhaps if I had actual "red flags"you would be right.

As I said to others, if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say don't say anything.

You can emulate aPD, smurfette or even dragonfly who have posted well thought out, intelligent helpful posts.

You mean like an applicant who screwed his current residency out of a spot?

 

[rokshana]

I very much disagree. I still am very much competitive. Only in your mind would someone who is already in a residency, a competitive one at that, would not be competitive. A red flag is a NEGATIVE thing - failures, being a foreign grad, no rotations, etc and even then you can match into something like this. Having a residency is no such thing. And given that this past week late in the week I was given interviews from some top notch programs, you are dead wrong. Perhaps if I had actual "red flags"you would be right.

As I said to others, if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say don't say anything.

You can emulate aPD, smurfette or even dragonfly who have posted well thought out, intelligent helpful posts.

well, i guess we will see come match day...

curious though isn't PM&R an advanced position as well? if you do manage to match, won't it be for 2015...what are you planning on doing next year?

and sorry, guy, you put your personal business out on sdn and ask for advice, you are going to get everything...my post is meant to be constructive...you (or your ego) just didn't like the the advice...

 

[rokshana]

You mean like an applicant who screwed his current residency out of a spot?

lol, don't worry...i would imagine filling an unexpected radiology spot is not going to be all that difficult...

 

[Shikima]

I very much disagree. I still am very much competitive. Only in your mind would someone who is already in a residency, a competitive one at that, would not be competitive. A red flag is a NEGATIVE thing - failures, being a foreign grad, no rotations, etc and even then you can match into something like this. Having a residency is no such thing. And given that this past week late in the week I was given interviews from some top notch programs, you are dead wrong. Perhaps if I had actual "red flags"you would be right.

As I said to others, if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say don't say anything.

You can emulate aPD, smurfette or even dragonfly who have posted well thought out, intelligent helpful posts.

 

[NRAI2001]

The PD said she was done giving out interviews??? The few PDs I spoke with are just barely downloading applications this week.

 

[Raryn]

I very much disagree. I still am very much competitive. Only in your mind would someone who is already in a residency, a competitive one at that, would not be competitive. A red flag is a NEGATIVE thing - failures, being a foreign grad, no rotations, etc and even then you can match into something like this. Having a residency is no such thing. And given that this past week late in the week I was given interviews from some top notch programs, you are dead wrong. Perhaps if I had actual "red flags"you would be right.

As I said to others, if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say don't say anything.

You can emulate aPD, smurfette or even dragonfly who have posted well thought out, intelligent helpful posts.

Being a reapplicant *is* a negative thing.

 

[Iamnotme]

Not really.

 

[Iamnotme]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Doctor Bob]

A reapplicant is a *negative* thing when they have not matched.

Being a reapplicant (if they matched before) can be a negative thing but it's somewhat specialty dependent.

Different specialties spend the first year or two teaching their residents to think a certain way. So for example, an internal medicine resident trying to switch to emergency medicine is going to have trouble because we know that we have to retrain their entire way of approaching a patient. And often, with the number of applicants we get, it's not worth doing. I'd rather take a person who is a tabula rasa than have to untrain someone's way of thinking.

Now... going from radiology to PM&R? No, probably not a negative. The general approach to a patient isn't going to require a big retraining. So in your situation it's probably not a negative.

 

[NRAI2001]

I have no idea what you are talking about for one, and for two, you must realize that different programs and different specialties are different. I would hope you are aware of that.

When I spoke to LSU 3-4 days after ERAS opened, probably on the 18th or 19th, they said they were pretty much *done* giving out IVS, which seemed pretty absurd to me. They also only have like 3-4 IV days which again seems very odd to me.

There is a handful of other PMR programs who have given out a large # of their IVs. The vast majority of PMR programs have at this point, except for a handful, downloaded and been reviewing apps for some time, and yes many programs do certainly still have IVS available but not all.

I have no idea what specialty you are in or what programs you applied to. Some may be done, many are likely not. Some specialties take their sweet old time in giving out IVs some throw out IVS early on - it's very dependent.

I m applying to IM... Most of the programs I spoke with are just barely downloading apps this week since the Deans letters were released this week..

 

[Iamnotme]

IM may be different, since there are literally thousands of spots. But even in IM, programs are already giving out IVs.

 

[NRAI2001]

IM may be different, since there are literally thousands of spots. But even in IM, programs are already giving out IVs.

Many programs don't need to see dean's letters or only care about dean's letters if on the fence. if a program feels a candidate is strong enough typically thy will send out pre-dean's letter IVs.

Yea I think IM programs have been sending out a few invites (I dont know theircriteria, maybe students that rotate there... who knows) but I think a lot more will start going out soon.

 

[Ronin786]

Not really. Clearly by the # of interviews I have gotten at this point and the quality of the programs, you are clearly wrong.

Not sure why you would try to dump on me? It really makes no sense.

A reapplicant is a *negative* thing when they have not matched.

Clearly you should know this but whatever, it's pretty clear that some of you don't have accurate knowledge of certain things.

The one who was pretty much spot on is aPD.

For someone who came in here looking for advice you sure seem to think you have all the answers.

 

[NRAI2001]

For someone who came in here looking for advice you sure seem to think you have all the answers.

Agreed.. And most of his answers are off the mark

 

[Shikima]

For someone who came in here looking for advice you sure seem to think you have all the answers.

 

[Iamnotme]

I came here looking for advice.

 

[Rendar5]

I came here looking for advice from people who have well thought out, knowledgeable things to say, not from random comments from random people.

Yours is a great example. When you write something think - is what I'm saying/writing worthwhile, meaningful, and helpful? If so, continue. If not, you should really not do anything.

Your post adds nothing of value, other than an attempt to bully someone. Perhaps you should think more carefully before you post something.

wow...since you only like uplifting advice, I'll say this: don't act like a dick at your interviews and I'm sure you'll do fine.