Thoughts on nurses turned MD?

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NursingStudent16 said:
I had considered acute care nurse practitioner. They just don't get near as much knowledge that med school gets you, less autonomy, and always getting put down my MDs for not being as smart as them
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Lol wut. I work ICU with 3 ACNP's and have never seen a physician ever show any disrespect.
 
olivarynucleus said:
95% of nurse though, they would never make it in med school. If you took all the meds students out of med school and put them in nursing school, pass rate would be about 100%, If you took all the nursing students out of nursing school and put the in med school, pass rate would be about, 5% and that's being generous.
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That's conjecture. I'm not debating that medical school isn't infinitely more difficult. But what's your point? Where'd you get 95% ? Why am I eve replying to this?
 
FCMike11 said:
Lol wut. I work ICU with 3 ACNP's and have never seen a physician ever show any disrespect.
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The disrespect must just come from some of the forums I've seen on here then. I haven't actually seen an ACNP in practice yet.
 
NursingStudent16 said:
The disrespect must just come from some of the forums I've seen on here then. I haven't actually seen an ACNP in practice yet.
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The disrespect is part of a downward spiral from both sides. Nurses don't like those that "outrank" them because...who does really?...so they start to claim they are equivalent in skills/knowledge. This leads to physicians feeling the need to point out how definitely not equal they are in skills/training. Then feelings get hurt. Then everything repeats. Notice there aren't a ton of threads about physicians pointing out they know more than electricians or chefs.
 
sb247 said:
The disrespect is part of a downward spiral from both sides. Nurses don't like those that "outrank" them because...who does really?...so they start to claim they are equivalent in skills/knowledge. This leads to physicians feeling the need to point out how definitely not equal they are in skills/training. Then feelings get hurt. Then everything repeats. Notice there aren't a ton of threads about physicians pointing out they know more than electricians or chefs.
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Very true, unfortunately
 
NursingStudent16 said:
Of course nurses wouldn't make it without the required pre reqs...you put ALMOST anyone in med school without those classes, they will suffer. But I would love to see the studies from which you are getting these percentages.
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Well for one, in numerous schools, nurses take separate science classes like "Microbiology for Nursing", "Biology for Nursing". Care to explain that?
 
sb247 said:
The disrespect is part of a downward spiral from both sides. Nurses don't like those that "outrank" them because...who does really?...so they start to claim they are equivalent in skills/knowledge. This leads to physicians feeling the need to point out how definitely not equal they are in skills/training. Then feelings get hurt. Then everything repeats. Notice there aren't a ton of threads about physicians pointing out they know more than electricians or chefs.
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it's like being from new york vs from boston

boston people can talk your head off about how boston has all these cool things and is better than new york city. new yorkers don't even think about comparing to boston. but if they start talking smack they are going to get shut down. people from houston aren't obsessed with comparing themselves to new york city
 
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@FCMike11 These are two different set of cohort--I mean very different! I attended nursing school and I can honestly say that the overwhelming majority of my classmates in nursing school would not get into med school (US med school). Heck! I probably was in the top 10% of my class while working 40 hrs/wk. On the other hand, med school has not been too kind to me and I study a lot more in med school than I studied in nursing school... I may be dumber now, who knows!😉
 
W19 said:
@FCMike11 These are two different set of cohort--I mean very different! I attended nursing school and I can honestly say that the overwhelming majority of my classmates in nursing school would not get into med school (US med school). Heck! I probably was in the top 10% of my class while working 40 hrs/wk. On the other hand, med school has not been too kind to me and I study a lot more in med school than I studied in nursing school... I may be dumber now, who knows!😉
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If you worked 40hrs a week, while partying every weekend like you said, and still were in the top 10% in nursing school, you were really selling yourself short.
 
@olivarynucleus I did not do my research about scope of practice, and I also wanted to make some quick money... I spent time in a couple third wold countries and nurses have more latitude in what they can do in these countries and I thought it would be the same here. Boy I was wrong! I did not do any shadowing; therefore, I did not know what I was getting myself into.
 
Since I haven't seen it mentioned yet, I'd say that the amount of clinical experience the nurses get is more valuable than the education in terms of doing well in med school. There are a few people at my school that were nurses for 5+ years and they tend to excel in the clinically related courses and patient interviews. However, the same goes for the people who were paramedics. In terms of the general lecture classes I'd guess it varies significantly from person to person as others have stated.
 
acceptmeplease said:
My nursing GPA was lower than my medical school GPA. Nursing tests were inherently evil. Even my most difficult exams in medical school which have required critical thinking applied to clinical vignettes still haven't been as bad as my nursing exams.

Sure. Medical school has more information, but nursing school at a good program wouldn't be as easy to many medical students as you think it would be.
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I severely, severely doubt this.
 
Stagg737 said:
Since I haven't seen it mentioned yet, I'd say that the amount of clinical experience the nurses get is more valuable than the education in terms of doing well in med school. There are a few people at my school that were nurses for 5+ years and they tend to excel in the clinically related courses and patient interviews. However, the same goes for the people who were paramedics. In terms of the general lecture classes I'd guess it varies significantly from person to person as others have stated.
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Absolutely true. Personally, my 1.5yr clinical experience before school helped me out in our professionalism/H&P/ethics course in the preclinical years & has made the transition to MS3 fairly easy, but it didn't do much for basic sciences other than recognition of drug names.
 
I believe those who have been on both sides of the fence have legitimate insights as to how difficult/easy it is to transition from nursing school to medical school. I do want to include that my nursing school experience wasn't too shabby, some struggle and some went through the program with a breeze. We've had a few nursing students who graduated with Bachelors from UC's with exceptional grades who struggled on tests and skills lab, because they couldn't grasp the concept of exams and skills well enough. I agree with some of those who have walked in the shoe as a nursing student. The course materials weren't too hard and will most definitely never be on par with medical school curriculum. What makes the program difficult for some are the testing styles laid out for students. It's very common to have test questions which includes select all that apply and questions that require you to pick and plot answers in their corrective order. Many students hated this.
 
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anaesthetic said:
My friends and I used to study together with a few of the nursing students during the first two years of med school. Their physiology material was pretty basic (e.g., metabolic/respiratory acidosis/alkalosis without learning about compensation or calculating anion gap). Not sure what the "care plans" and stuff like that were all about, but the basic sciences material definitely wasn't any more difficult than that of med school. I did skim through a few of the chapters in their nursing physiology book and was pretty surprised at how much detail there was, although from what I remember, they weren't really responsible for knowing all of the material. They had detailed outlines/guidelines for what they were supposed to learn. My experience in medical school was that you had to know as much as possible and hope you knew enough by exam time.
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they were for sure not responsible for knowing all of the material
for example, in renal phys we learned about all of the cell types and what ion channels they have and how they are changed by diuretics and how gittelman, bartters syndrome works
theirs were more like "loop diuretics lead to hyponatremia, hypokalemia, hypocalcemia while thiazides lead to hypercalcemia"

nursing care plans were a huge waste of time, not sure who invented them
 
Psai said:
nursing care plans were a huge waste of time, not sure who invented them
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Pretty sure they were invented by the same people who push nursing autonomy. They're just one more thing for the nurse to do that they either have no business doing, most don't want to do, or does not create a net benefit for patient care.
 
Psai said:
they were for sure not responsible for knowing all of the material
for example, in renal phys we learned about all of the cell types and what ion channels they have and how they are changed by diuretics and how gittelman, bartters syndrome works
theirs were more like "loop diuretics lead to hyponatremia, hypokalemia, hypocalcemia while thiazides lead to hypercalcemia"

nursing care plans were a huge waste of time, not sure who invented them
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That sentence implies you attended nursing school. Nursing diagnosis🙄! Yes care plans were a waste of time. I usually copied them from a book and made my tweak if necessary.
 
W19 said:
That sentence implies you attended nursing school. Nursing diagnosis🙄! Yes care plans were a waste of time. I usually copied them from a book and made my tweak if necessary.
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ive taken some nursing classes but did not go to nursing school
i helped with making nursing care plans so i have an idea of what they entail
nursing diagnoses are the stupidest things i ever heard of. why even play a word game with not diagnosing the patient when you have nurse practitioners who diagnose patients? makes no sense to me
 
FCMike11 said:
Lol wut. I work ICU with 3 ACNP's and have never seen a physician ever show any disrespect.
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Could be because professional training includes brig courteous...but in the right time and with the right people an opinion may be shared contrary to what courteous professionalism might be assumed to imply
 
JustaDO said:
Well for one, in numerous schools, nurses take separate science classes like "Microbiology for Nursing", "Biology for Nursing". Care to explain that?
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True, a lot of schools do that. Just because they think will benefit them with their profession of choice, I'm assuming. My pre reqs weren't like that. I took regular micro and biology; the chemistry class however was a different story. It was a mixture of general and inorganic chem that didn't go into too much depth, just kind of scraped the surfaces of each; which I didn't like.
 
anaesthetic said:
My friends and I used to study together with a few of the nursing students during the first two years of med school. Their physiology material was pretty basic (e.g., metabolic/respiratory acidosis/alkalosis without learning about compensation or calculating anion gap). Not sure what the "care plans" and stuff like that were all about, but the basic sciences material definitely wasn't any more difficult than that of med school. I did skim through a few of the chapters in their nursing physiology book and was pretty surprised at how much detail there was, although from what I remember, they weren't really responsible for knowing all of the material. They had detailed outlines/guidelines for what they were supposed to learn. My experience in medical school was that you had to know as much as possible and hope you knew enough by exam time.
Click to expand...
I agree some of my books are pretty in depth (patho, med/surg, psych, and genetics surprisingly). But the professors only make us learn specific points about each chapter. It upsets me because I want more knowledge.
 
anaesthetic said:
My friends and I used to study together with a few of the nursing students during the first two years of med school. Their physiology material was pretty basic (e.g., metabolic/respiratory acidosis/alkalosis without learning about compensation or calculating anion gap). Not sure what the "care plans" and stuff like that were all about, but the basic sciences material definitely wasn't any more difficult than that of med school. I did skim through a few of the chapters in their nursing physiology book and was pretty surprised at how much detail there was, although from what I remember, they weren't really responsible for knowing all of the material. They had detailed outlines/guidelines for what they were supposed to learn. My experience in medical school was that you had to know as much as possible and hope you knew enough by exam time.
Click to expand...
I agree some of my books are pretty in depth (patho, med/surg, psych, and genetics surprisingly). But the professors only make us learn specific points about each chapter. It upsets me because I want more knowledge.
 
acceptmeplease said:
Pretty sure they were invented by the same people who push nursing autonomy. They're just one more thing for the nurse to do that they either have no business doing, most don't want to do, or does not create a net benefit for patient care.
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Care plans are definitely not that helpful with patient care. I think the main point of them is for the students who can't quite grasp concepts and what goes into each category of the nursing process. Having the student write out the material over and over on various patient conditions helps it to stick a little bit better. They are just for student's learning benefit, I think.
 
Psai said:
ive taken some nursing classes but did not go to nursing school
i helped with making nursing care plans so i have an idea of what they entail
nursing diagnoses are the stupidest things i ever heard of. why even play a word game with not diagnosing the patient when you have nurse practitioners who diagnose patients? makes no sense to me
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I absolutely hate nursing diagnoses..the nursing process includes assessment, diagnosis, planning, implementation, and evaluation. Diagnosis should definitely be taken out.
 
NursingStudent16 said:
I absolutely hate nursing diagnoses..the nursing process includes assessment, diagnosis, planning, implementation, and evaluation. Diagnosis should definitely be taken out.
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The fact is, this whole nursing diagnosis and process is useless in the real world. As nurses, our only job is to follow and carryout physician's orders and go accordingly to their plan of care. Plain and simple.
 
NoTownPreMed said:
The fact is, this whole nursing diagnosis and process is useless in the real world. As nurses, our only job is to follow and carryout physician's orders and go accordingly to their plan of care. Plain and simple.
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I agree somewhat. Assessment, implementation, and evaluation are important aspects in nursing. Assess need for pain medication, get doctor's order, implement that order, and evaluate the effectiveness of the medication. Simple, but important.
 
NursingStudent16 said:
True, a lot of schools do that. Just because they think will benefit them with their profession of choice, I'm assuming. My pre reqs weren't like that. I took regular micro and biology; the chemistry class however was a different story. It was a mixture of general and inorganic chem that didn't go into too much depth, just kind of scraped the surfaces of each; which I didn't like.
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In a lot of curriculums, the "for nursing" suffix meant that the class inherently is not as in depth as the "for science majors" option. I personally think that there should only be one type of Bio, Chem etc, and that to have a "easier" class does no one favors.
 
JustaDO said:
In a lot of curriculums, the "for nursing" suffix meant that the class inherently is not as in depth as the "for science majors" option. I personally think that there should only be one type of Bio, Chem etc, and that to have a "easier" class does no one favors.
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I agree that it does no one favors, and I hate it. I just want more knowledge in the subject matters. The only pre req course I took that wasn't an in depth class for science majors was the chem class. I plan to take my gen and orgo chem classes after I graduate, along with physics.
 
JustaDO said:
In a lot of curriculums, the "for nursing" suffix meant that the class inherently is not as in depth as the "for science majors" option. I personally think that there should only be one type of Bio, Chem etc, and that to have a "easier" class does no one favors.
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Disagree completely. Learning about a bunch of different plants and crap in biology 101, learning how to balance a redox equation in chem 101, etc. Wasting time learning things you don't need to does no one favors. Nursing is a vocational track, as is medicine. Shouldn't waste time learning a bunch of irrelevant crap
 
NursingStudent16 said:
Of course nurses wouldn't make it without the required pre reqs...you put ALMOST anyone in med school without those classes, they will suffer. But I would love to see the studies from which you are getting these percentages.
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You think college undergrad classes help you in medical school? No... They don't. Maybe if you took anatomy/physiology and had a good teacher it would help a little bit, but the rest of undergrad is a joke and not needed. Hell, you didn't even have to take anatomy at my school as a pre-req to get in and having that small anatomy background was the only thing that helped me even a little bit.
 
Kapooya said:
You think college undergrad classes help you in medical school? No... They don't. Maybe if you took anatomy/physiology and had a good teacher it would help a little bit, but the rest of undergrad is a joke and not needed. Hell, you didn't even have to take anatomy at my school as a pre-req to get in and having that small anatomy background was the only thing that helped me even a little bit.
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Several of my undergrad courses helped me. Cell bio, cancer bio, immunology, and biochem are examples.
 
anaesthetic said:
I don't necessarily remember the exact sequences of the tRNA loops or the Nernst equation, but a lot of those types of classes from undergrad helped me understand the principles behind a lot of the stuff we learn (i.e., memorize) in medical school.
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exactly what i wanted to say. i'm not pushing electrons on paper tests or calculating fluid dynamics in blood vessels or solving quantum equations but i think that the process of learning and the principles that you pick up are valuable. if you want a vocational tract where you just learn what you need to know to practice then be a pa or an np
 
Kapooya said:
You think college undergrad classes help you in medical school? No... They don't. Maybe if you took anatomy/physiology and had a good teacher it would help a little bit, but the rest of undergrad is a joke and not needed. Hell, you didn't even have to take anatomy at my school as a pre-req to get in and having that small anatomy background was the only thing that helped me even a little bit.
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I agree that they don't necessarily help you in medical school....but you need them to get a good MCAT score to get into medical school, so regardless you need them anyways.
 
NursingStudent16 said:
I agree that they don't necessarily help you in medical school....but you need them to get a good MCAT score to get into medical school, so regardless you need them anyways.
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No, Khan academy and a review book can very quickly teach you what you need to know. The biggest bare essential reason for taking the courses is that many schools require them before you can apply there.

Even surface level exposure to concepts before medical school is great. It's a lot easier to build a house on a solid foundation, and that's probably why schools have prerequisite requirements.
 
anaesthetic said:
I don't necessarily remember the exact sequences of the tRNA loops or the Nernst equation, but a lot of those types of classes from undergrad helped me understand the principles behind a lot of the stuff we learn (i.e., memorize) in medical school.
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It may or may not help people, but I knew very, very little anatomy, physiology, neuro, micro, etc. before med school. I honored every class. It all depends on the person.
 
I will admit that I was probably being more ignorant than needed with my first post. Having that background of cell bio, immuno, micro, A/P, etc most certainly does not hurt. However, I guess I was more riled up because I thought that NursingStudent16 meant that the reason a nursing student wouldn't succeed in medical school is because they don't have that background. I just do not think that is the case. At my school we still covered the basics I learned in undergrad, we just did it at a much quicker pace. However, stepping back and thinking about it I would say that my undergraduate education most certainly helped me very much, particularly in first year. BUT I do think I would have been just fine without having had taken those classes before. I guess that was what my point was. I can see how the original post came off the wrong way though. You could argue that physics and organic make you a better thinker/problem solver too I guess... I just don't think that taking extra undergrad classes is what makes you a good medical student, but it would be ignorant to say having that background does not help at all.

Edit--And I am not saying anything bad about nurses. I have tons of nurses in my family and a lot of my friends are nurses. I just get irritated with them because they think they have it just as bad and feel the need to tell me that all the time without me saying anything. None the less, having just started 3rd year I am very nice to all of the nurses on the floor 🙂. They certainly know a ton more than I do at this point.
 
Kapooya said:
I will admit that I was probably being more ignorant than needed with my first post. Having that background of cell bio, immuno, micro, A/P, etc most certainly does not hurt. However, I guess I was more riled up because I thought that NursingStudent16 meant that the reason a nursing student wouldn't succeed in medical school is because they don't have that background. I just do not think that is the case. At my school we still covered the basics I learned in undergrad, we just did it at a much quicker pace. However, stepping back and thinking about it I would say that my undergraduate education most certainly helped me very much, particularly in first year. BUT I do think I would have been just fine without having had taken those classes before. I guess that was what my point was. I can see how the original post came off the wrong way though. You could argue that physics and organic make you a better thinker/problem solver too I guess... I just don't think that taking extra undergrad classes is what makes you a good medical student, but it would be ignorant to say having that background does not help at all.

Edit--And I am not saying anything bad about nurses. I have tons of nurses in my family and a lot of my friends are nurses. I just get irritated with them because they think they have it just as bad and feel the need to tell me that all the time without me saying anything. None the less, having just started 3rd year I am very nice to all of the nurses on the floor 🙂. They certainly know a ton more than I do at this point.
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I am glad you are nice to the nurses. They will be one of your biggest assets!
 
acceptmeplease said:
No, Khan academy and a review book can very quickly teach you what you need to know. The biggest bare essential reason for taking the courses is that many schools require them before you can apply there.

Even surface level exposure to concepts before medical school is great. It's a lot easier to build a house on a solid foundation, and that's probably why schools have prerequisite requirements.
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There are a few med schools that actually don't require you to take any pre req courses. But I think it depends on the person. I can't really just read a book and try to teach myself, unless I have a while to do it. I feel better actually having a professor to teach, and having someone there to ask questions.
 
An MD, RN is in a unique position to be able to compare the content and philosophies of nursing and medical education
 
BurghStudent said:
An MD, RN is in a unique position to be able to compare the content and philosophies of nursing and medical education
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I agree; and as someone who actually went to nursing school and is in medical school, I think it's funny that people "seriously, seriously doubt" what I have to say because, heaven forbid, certain aspects of nursing school may be harder than medical school.
 
acceptmeplease said:
I agree; and as someone who actually went to nursing school and is in medical school, I think it's funny that people "seriously, seriously doubt" what I have to say because, heaven forbid, certain aspects of nursing school may be harder than medical school.
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your preceptor being mean to you?
 
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