Thoughts on the APA?

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But my point was that, for better or worse, the APA is devoted to supporting a wide range of psychologists. When they promote psychological research, and recomend changes based on it, that's exactly what they are doing. We can't really say that they should be focusing on supporting one subset of dues paying members, while ignoring another.

But your right, they probably are much less effective because they are such a jack of all trades organizations. I don't see that changing anytime soon though, given the diverse membership.


Fair point, but there are other organizations (including some APA divisions) that do exactly what you're saying much better because they are more focused on that as a primary purpose.

For example, I'm a member of AUCD, which advocates for research and policy change related to individuals with disabilities (health care reform, special education laws, community inclusion, etc., etc). That's their sole purpose, and they are really, really good at There are other organizations that do the same thing for GLBT research and policy--they are hyperfocused and really good at what they do because they are 100% dedicated to that.The AMA is an effective lobbying group for physicians in part because that's what they do as an organization.

APA can't be a jack of all trades and do it all effectively, IMO.

I have zero issue with gay marriage or psychologists publicly discussing the research in favor of it. I think it's great, really. I just side-eye APA being a political activism organization/a policy organization/an accrediting body/a professional organization for practitioners/a professional organization for researchers/a book publisher/ a journal publisher/an ethics board/etc. It can't be all things to all people and do that well.
 
Meanwhile the frontpage of the AMA website is an endorsement of the decision upholding Obamacare...

They seem to be the same kind of jack-of-all-trades organization you say the APA is.


Except Obamacare is directly revelant to the practice of medicine--and psychology, for that matter.

Same sex marriage, while something I support and a hugely important social issue, isn't.
 
Aw man, I'm sorry I brought up politics. Can we get back to good ol'-fashioned bashing on APA for not addressing scope creep and the internship crisis?
 
Something about the attitude "Let's all show APA and quit!!" reminds me of Occupy Wall St's plan to effect political change by not voting. Many occupiers prefer to smugly stay above it all and wait around for the revolution they think is inevitable. Granted sometimes big events propel big change, but if something like this massive defrauding/APAPO scandal doesn't bring down APA, what is likely to? And even if you want to wait for some massive change to upend APA, is your inaction doing anything at all to advance that? I do get it when people say they vote with their feet, but curiously that also seems to be the course of 'action' that requires doing the least amount of work.

It's not the time yet to quit APA in anger and frustration. Primarily because there's no alternative. We have no other recognized accrediting body, and it'll be at least a decade before APS is in a place to really compete.

But I'll say it again--there is no "the APA." No etherial being presides over the profession and determines our fates. It's just a bunch of committees (which people can get on and then not shut up about the problems and push to actually change things) and psychologists (who can be replaced by more effective leaders).

APAGS subcommittees will be up for new members shortly after convention. http://www.apa.org/apags/governance/index.aspx Most divisions have turnover at that time, too I think. Get in at that level. Scream about the problems and help to fix the policies.
 
Except Obamacare is directly revelant to the practice of medicine--and psychology, for that matter.

Same sex marriage, while something I support and a hugely important social issue, isn't.

If you peruse the decision striking down Prop 8 you might change your mind. Psychologists are quoted and cited numerous times. True this is the scholarly side but the APA does represent the scientists too?
 
It's not the time yet to quit APA in anger and frustration. Primarily because there's no alternative. We have no other recognized accrediting body, and it'll be at least a decade before APS is in a place to really compete.

But I'll say it again--there is no "the APA." No etherial being presides over the profession and determines our fates. It's just a bunch of committees (which people can get on and then not shut up about the problems and push to actually change things) and psychologists (who can be replaced by more effective leaders).

APAGS subcommittees will be up for new members shortly after convention. http://www.apa.org/apags/governance/index.aspx Most divisions have turnover at that time, too I think. Get in at that level. Scream about the problems and help to fix the policies.


I think this is excellent point. Thanks, MCParent.
 
If you peruse the decision striking down Prop 8 you might change your mind. Psychologists are quoted and cited numerous times. True this is the scholarly side but the APA does represent the scientists too?

I have zero issue with psychological research informing policy (in fact, I think it very much should--my one research has been cited in a congressional testimony and I'm very proud of that fact). But psychological research impacts a ton of vital social issues--domestic violence, child abuse, bullying, education, discrimination, same sex marriage, divorce, community inclusion, standardized testing, poverty, etc, etc. APA realistically doesn't issue a policy statement on all of them because they can't. Individual divisions and focused orgs should use psychological research to do just that and they can a really great job of it.

I'm in no way arguing against psychological research in policy; I'm just saying that APA can't address every major social issue that psychological research affects and that divisions and other orgs do that very well.

But very, very few orgs exist to advocate for psychologists as profession--be it in practice or academia. So when huge issues like the internship imbalance comes up, APA really needs to address those, because they are the only ones that well. If APA was doingvthat, I'd probably be fine with their broader, jack of all trades scope.
 
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I have zero issue with psychological research informing policy (in fact, I think it very much should--my one research has been cited in a congressional testimony and I'm very proud of that fact). But psychological research impacts a ton of vital social issues--domestic violence, child abuse, bullying, education, discrimination, same sex marriage, divorce, community inclusion, standardized testing, poverty, etc, etc. APA realistically doesn't issue a policy statement on all of them because they can't. Individual divisions and focused orgs should use psychological research to do just that and they can a really great job of it.

I'm in no way arguing against psychological research in policy; I'm just saying that APA can't address every major social issue that psychological research affects and that divisions and other orgs do that very well.

But very, very few orgs exist to advocate for psychologists as profession--be it in practice or academia. So when huge issues like the internship imbalance comes up, APA really needs to address those, because they are the only ones that well. If APA was doingvthat, I'd probably be fine with their broader, jack of all trades scope.

Perhaps we are splitting hairs. I agree that the APA can't function as the primary advocacy organization for each topic, but who but the APA can represent the distillation of psychology's take on each issue? Let's remember that the original "offense" was a press release on gay marriage. And I paraphrase, "Gay relationships are not inherently deviant; gays don't damage children" Massive resources wasted?

I clicked a few times and found similar press releases on nearly every issue you just listed. There are APA policy statements on 324 different topics. This is part of the dissemination mission of a scientific profession. The point I was making with the AMA was that each guild does spend a portion of its public facing self on dissemination of knowledge. 'Gay is OK' can and should be part of our profession's message to the public. I agree with you that divisions do a lot of this important work, but if the division and its APA members come up with a policy position and it just requires some higher up APA functionary to approve it and slap it on the website, the average member of the public isn't going to know or care about differences between the divisions and the association. For all we know the offending press release was written by the LGBT division and just given the stamp of approval.
 
http://www.apa.org/about/apa/chart.aspx

It just seems kinda silly that some think all the other APA sections should stop working until the accreditation folks (for both internships & programs) and whatever executives need to sign off on the changes adequately address the internship crisis.

People focus on whatever they don't particularly care for the APA to do and zero in on that and say "Why be doing this when we have an internship crisis??" Should the employee who writes press releases be shuttled away to fix the internship crisis, asap? Is anyone offended that American Psychologist continues to be printed while we have a serious internship crisis?

And I don't take the crisis lightly, afaik I was the only one in my program pushing students and faculty to sign MCParent's petition and become more informed. I just see displaced anger.
 
'Gay is OK' can and should be part of our profession's message to the public. I agree with you that divisions do a lot of this important work, but if the division and its APA members come up with a policy position and it just requires some higher up APA functionary to approve it and slap it on the website, the average member of the public isn't going to know or care about differences between the divisions and the association. For all we know the offending press release was written by the LGBT division and just given the stamp of approval.

If that is roughly what happened (experts on the topic used the research to write a relevant policy statement and APA put their logo on it on request), I'd have no issue. 🙂
 
If that is roughly what happened (experts on the topic used the research to write a relevant policy statement and APA put their logo on it on request), I'd have no issue. 🙂

Just to clarify I was speculating based on the fact that the policy statement looks like it was written by a group of experts in that division/field(it has 81 references)--it's then given the stamp of approval at the yearly meeting. It's also an assumption that they have press interns writing releases based on existing policy statements, but I think it's a reasonable one 🙂
 
http://www.apa.org/about/apa/chart.aspx

It just seems kinda silly that some think all the other APA sections should stop working until the accreditation folks (for both internships & programs) and whatever executives need to sign off on the changes adequately address the internship crisis.

People focus on whatever they don't particularly care for the APA to do and zero in on that and say "Why be doing this when we have an internship crisis??" Should the employee who writes press releases be shuttled away to fix the internship crisis, asap? Is anyone offended that American Psychologist continues to be printed while we have a serious internship crisis?

And I don't take the crisis lightly, afaik I was the only one in my program pushing students and faculty to sign MCParent's petition and become more informed. I just see displaced anger.

Well, active people work to change whatever they care a lot about. No one said everyone needs to focus on the internship crisis, but it is a major problem in the field and affects nearly everything else in clinical and counseling psych, eventually (and accreditation-at-all-levels even more so, and that's tied in close with the internship crisis).

The Hyatt boycott and torture policies were largely advocated for at the division level. It would benefit the entire organization if active and empowered people took positions in APA, APAGS, and divisions, rather than the current musical chairs of committee memberships.
 
'Gay is OK' can and should be part of our profession's message to the public. I agree with you that divisions do a lot of this important work, but if the division and its APA members come up with a policy position and it just requires some higher up APA functionary to approve it and slap it on the website, the average member of the public isn't going to know or care about differences between the divisions and the association. For all we know the offending press release was written by the LGBT division and just given the stamp of approval.

Heh. After the Hyatt boycott Div 44 and APA (which both tried to avoid having people engage in the boycott) touted the success of social justice. It was fun to see the memory hole in action.
 
Well, active people work to change whatever they care a lot about. No one said everyone needs to focus on the internship crisis, but it is a major problem in the field and affects nearly everything else in clinical and counseling psych, eventually (and accreditation-at-all-levels even more so, and that's tied in close with the internship crisis).

The Hyatt boycott and torture policies were largely advocated for at the division level. It would benefit the entire organization if active and empowered people took positions in APA, APAGS, and divisions, rather than the current musical chairs of committee memberships.

I agree, if people really think the APA shouldn't issue policy statements or disseminate relevant research findings or even if they just disagree with APA's position on a social issue that's fine and more people should join to advocate, I just think it requires a bit of contorting to claim that the work of the press office could be disassembled and reassembled elsewhere to put to work at fixing the internship issues.
 
It's not the time yet to quit APA in anger and frustration. Primarily because there's no alternative. We have no other recognized accrediting body, and it'll be at least a decade before APS is in a place to really compete.

But I'll say it again--there is no "the APA." No etherial being presides over the profession and determines our fates. It's just a bunch of committees (which people can get on and then not shut up about the problems and push to actually change things) and psychologists (who can be replaced by more effective leaders).

APAGS subcommittees will be up for new members shortly after convention. http://www.apa.org/apags/governance/index.aspx Most divisions have turnover at that time, too I think. Get in at that level. Scream about the problems and help to fix the policies.

Hmm, I see it a bit differently.

APA is run by a board of directors with an immense amount of control. If you disagree, consider when they gave a multi-million-dollar retirement package to the former CEO and no one in APA including the Council even knew about it ... that information came out when it was revealed in a newspaper column about retirement packages. Also, I have heard many complain that the staff is extremely influential in leading elected officials in deciding policy and that many elected officials complain that they have little influence.

The practice assessment scandal could be more evidence of highly centralized power in APA. For 10 years APA deceived the entire membership into believing the assessment was required for membership when it is only a voluntary donation to APAPO. Among the vast majority defrauded by APA were many people who had served in elected positions at the division level, for example. In fact, a poll of council members showed that 48 percent of the council believed it was mandatory!

Some years ago the self-styled "dirty dozen" changed APA's political system to tilt the organization heavily towards "practice". They created the Practice Directorate, which has much more funding and influence than the Science Directorate. They also increased the size of the council, which actually makes it weaker as it is less decisive and more dependent on staff to lead them. Also in that expansion, they gave state organizations a large voting bloc on the council. At last count 60 of the 162 votes on the council were from state organizations. This is significant for a couple of reasons: The state organizations are very heavily tilted towards practice. They are also subsidiaries of the APA Practice Organization (the state list-serves are owned by the practice organization and the annual "leadership conference" is conducted by APAPO, which then uses the state leaders as lobbyists to spread their political policies. The states receive grants from APAPO.) Finally, the state organizations are very homogenous. The interests of Oklahoma and Arkansas are almost identical, for example. The divisions are diverse, so that Military Psychology would have different priorities than, say, Health Psychology.

The APAPO's governing board is not chosen by those who pay the APAPO dues, but by the council, which is run mostly by the state organizations which receive money from APAPO, a sort of strange circular power structure. BUT ... that board does not have the final say over APAPO, instead it's the APA board of directors.

Therefore, it seems that there is an argument that there IS a THE APA, a core of staff members who remain long after elected officials move on, and who guide and direct policy, and also a core of politicians who serve in multiple elected roles. The council is heavily tilted toward practice and is weak because of its size so it depends on the staff and the board.
 
I agree! There is the figurehead APA president and various public faces of APA we see in the Monitor and then there are the more shadowy people behind the scenes who actually hold power in APA. Decoding what is happening within the APA reminds me of the "Kremlinology" from the cold war days where experts on the Soviet Union would scrutinize the body language of the politburo members standing on top Lenin's tomb.
 
Well, sure there are tighter and tighter groups of musical chairs as you go up. But think about those examples; APAPO depended on the ignorance and complacency of membership, and was wrecked shortly after the story and lawsuit broke (if not retroactively). The Dirty Dozen maneuvered to be elected to boards, committees, and ultimately APA presidency--hard, and it took decades, but those positions aren't exactly backroom; they can be run for by members (if you look at the current slate and check out their web sites, you don't even have to be especially sensible in your policy plans, in all cases....). Torture was brought down against vested APA interests by divisions, members, and outside pressure. Even the Hyatt boycott success, again against APA wishes, was due almost entirely to James Cantor alone breaking most of the story and folks getting on board with him and the San Diego organizers.

So, sure, there are backroom deals and smaller groups of musical chairs. Their problem is that, for the most part, they're as inept as the rest of APA, and those boards and committees can be restocked.
 
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