Thoughts on the tone here/people feeling attacked

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by Sanman, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. attitudelikeasunrise

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    This makes sense to me. Do you literally remain silent/not comment when people go down the virtue signaling path etc. or do you overtly state that you don't believe in what they are saying and therefore aren't going to engage in conversation with them? I understand the futility of debating with people like this, though I wonder if there is any benefit to explicitly voicing that you disagree with them so they at least know that not everyone is aligned with their agenda?
     
  2. Jon Snow

    Jon Snow Senior Member
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    It’s not like it’s all wrong or all bad. Certainly, don’t debate politics. I think there’s no point in voicing disagreement.

    It is socially acceptable to express extreme left wing views in academia/psychology. I do think that there is a political ideology overlap with this issue. Anything Center or center right will be approached with substantially increased scrutiny and is likely to be misinterpreted to your detriment and there is nothing to gain.
     
    #102 Jon Snow, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  3. WisNeuro

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    :rofl:

    Well, when someone accused @AcronymAllergy of mocking, this thread has officially jumped the shark. We are officially in some sort of Kafkaesque world where truth is subjective. Truly idiotic.
     
  4. cara susanna

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    I do actually enjoy how this is a space where I can discuss mental health and psychology without having to worry about Leftbook sorts of things (e.g. using words like "neurotypical," trigger/content warnings, getting called sadistic for promoting exposure therapy, etc). I don't think that this means we have to be entirely on the other side, though. There is a happy medium.
     
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  5. NeuroWise

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    I don't regularly come to the forum, but when I do, my favorite thing is to read through these long-ass threads and track the progressive decline into the absurd. It's inevitable too. So fun.
     
  6. OP
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    Sanman

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    Seriously on the bolded part? Wow.
     
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  7. GradStudent2020

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    I’ve seen that but only on social media/forums where the participants have zero formal training in the field.
     
  8. cara susanna

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    Yup. Although I should specify that these aren't professional groups or anything. Also, for some reason, EMDR is just fine--not only fine, but the only treatment anyone should ever do. And you wouldn't believe the number of people who say that they're diagnosed with complex PTSD (SDNers probably all know my thoughts on that particular diagnosis)...
     
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  9. OP
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    Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
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    I work at the VA, who doesn't have that dx?
     
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  10. cara susanna

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    I work in the VA too, and I've only ever seen it listed a few times as the actual diagnosis.
     
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  11. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    AA can certainly be a cyberbully. I'm pretty sure when not moderating here, AA is pretty busy trolling comments sections on youtube.
     
  12. WisNeuro

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    I saw him kick a puppy once, right after slapping a baby.
     
  13. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist, Centene Corp
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    1. As evidenced by today's posts: I have, and will continue to watch my "tone."

    2. Most don't know this, but @AcronymAllergy is actually...

     
  14. PSYDNEUROGUY

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    It's been a while since I've posted, but I saw the topic and wanted to contribute.

    I've probably visited this site intermittently over the years, especially before I entered into my doctoral program. It feels like its been months since I've been on, but I tend to avoid coming on here. I know when I was looking for doctoral programs, I looked to SDN as a resource and it was not the most pleasant of experiences to say the least. The other option is to just stay away; unfortunately, that means others who come on here with similar questions or pursuits may not get the most representative opinions depending on the topic as there tends to be a cluster of folks who tend to provide personal opinions regarding a myriad of topics while others with differing perspectives and experiences feel compelled to leave or avoid the forum. It's interesting too how we might say "let's be respectful and professional in how we speak to each other," yet some might respond with "I'm not their therapist or supervisor, etc." Yet...some of the comments from some of these users are "this guy comes on here thinking he is right about everything and someone like me who has X amount of years of experience doesn't know anything..." Which is it? Do you project a purely personal approach to online conversations and advisement or a professional one? It can seem confusing.

    I would say I am glad that I stuck to my instincts overall; sure there have been some things I wish could be better, but based on who I am, what I want, what my goals are and the overall context of my life, my decisions have more or less played out the way I wanted them to. This I can attribute to the fact that not all opinions on here are going to be "right" for you and knowing that is very important to keep in mind when people are making very important career-related decisions. So, regarding the OP's comments on "tone," I absolutely think it's important to keep that in check (not saying I've been an angel in the past). I've gone to some conferences recently where...there are actual licensed professionals who have some personality styles that are an acquired taste to put it nicely.
     
    #114 PSYDNEUROGUY, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  15. OP
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    Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
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    I heard AA was Keyser Soze...
     
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  16. GradStudent2020

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    @LadyHalcyon, you tried and I appreciate it. I have spoken to some other students that are more “lurkers”, and this convo was warranted. It’s too bad that it wasn’t taken seriously.

    I agree with your comments about feedback/self-reflection being a two way street. Sadly, I don’t think it’s going to happen on SDN.
     
  17. WisNeuro

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    Oh, the irony with some of these comments
     
  18. ClinicalABA

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    While the optics of the recent posts (e.g., joking) are a little bad given the subject matter of the OP, I know that many of us take these concerns seriously. I do want to emphasize that- even with the snarky, jerky, or rude posters- the information they provide regarding training programs/risks/etc. is pretty accurate, even if delivered with a "tone" and in a manner that you (and me, at times) do not feel is warranted. Hopefully some of the "old timers" will be a little more cognizant of the effects of how they say things (though I wouldn't count on it from some!). Whatever- it's free advice from a stranger on the internet. Taking it personally is probably not a good idea.

    On another note, I'd encourage to re-read the Alliant thread that prompted this one. The original poster in that thread, imho, did a very good job job of responding to the message rather than the way it was delivered. I think that's a great strategy for users of online forums such as this.
     
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  19. GradStudent2020

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    There is definitely some good information shared on the forum. I’m just not sure it’s worth weeding through the negativity and flat-out inaccurate information often presented as fact.

    This forum in particular highlights the importance of forming and maintaining real-life support in the field, with colleagues and mentors.

    I’ve appreciated several of your comments on this thread, @ClinicalABA, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
     
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  20. MCParent

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    Poisoning the Well
     
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  21. WisNeuro

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  22. PSYDR

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  23. ClinicalABA

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    I'd suggest some caution with this position- While factual innaccuracies do pop up, they are usually corrected quickly. I do, however, think that some times people are pointing out trends or statistical likelihoods (e.g., such as those related to published outcome data from certain FSPSs) and this is interpreted (and responded to) as if it were an absolute rule. For example, saying that "enrolling in a program like Alliant is a a crapshoot, with high percentages of students not able to complete their training adequately" is not incompatible with "many Alliant grads have decent jobs at places like Kaiser." Other times I think people just don't get the response they want and thus argue that the facts are opinions.
     
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  24. GradStudent2020

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    Anyone in this field would be well served by being able to understand the statistics and numbers made available by various programs.

    I’ve seen posters completely misrepresent statistics to make their point (ex. Comparing statistics from a 10 year span on one program vs 1 year of all APA schools). I’ve also seen outright lies (ex. Fielding students do not have access to research labs). Verifiable lies if you know where to look.

    These are just two recent examples, and no, they are not usually corrected. The posters most often misrepresenting information to prove their point are also the ones with “tone” issues that will immediately attack anyone that points out these innaccuracies. Many (most?) posters on this forum are not going to subject themselves to that.

    In case I’ve been misunderstood, there are absolutely concerns with some of these programs that should be shared and discussed with potential students. However, the fact that the legitimate concerns are mixed with inaccurate information, “tone” issues, snark, etc.... makes it hard to take many of these posters seriously.
     
  25. MCParent

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    Which threads were those in?
     
  26. GradStudent2020

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    The first example is in the thread titled “Fielding Graduate University”. The second one may be also, I don’t have time to dig for/confirm right now.
     
  27. GradStudent2020

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    It may have been in the “help me decide” mega thread.
     
  28. WisNeuro

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    I don't recall anyone providing inaccurate numbers of match rates in that thread. Could you point it out?
     
  29. Therapist4Chnge

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    I posted this comparison, and the data were not substantially different. I couldn’t find an updated 10yr data analysis, so I used the most recent data point provided by APPIC; I wrote as much in the follow up post(s).

    I believe this was in regard to Fielding’s trash match %’s for APA-acred in the post-internship imbalance era of APPIC match. Looking at their match rates for APA-acred internship over the past 10 years and their ridiculously high attrition rate, I stand by my comments that it is a malignant program that preys on students, leaving many saddled w debt and nothing to show for it. I’m not going to apologize for my opinion; the data are not substantially different, and in that thread I explained where I got the data.

    I’m not sure if this is also directed at me, but I won’t apologize for my tone. Compared to other areas of SDN, posters in this forum wear kid gloves. Go check out pre-Allo and tell me the Clinical Psych forum is bad for SDN, let alone the Internet. Sometimes posters want an echo-chamber to validate their opinions. When data are presented in contrary to what they wanted to hear, the response is often (but does not always) about tone. Data are data.

    I post on here bc it has helped dozens (more?) students over the past decade. I have less patience for things in recent years bc I have seen how malignant programs damaged my/our profession, but that doesn’t invalidate the data I present in addition to my opinions. Posters are welcome to ignore me and others, but it is at their own peril, as there are plenty of programs willing to saddle prospective students with $200k-$400k in debt. There are “consultants” that charge hundreds of dollars an hour for what the licensed posters on here share for free. I used to lecture on information I give away on here bc I want to help the field.

    I speak the same way in person and i’ve had dozens of students I helped successfully complete training, get licensed, and thank me years later. I’m not going to sugar coat the message bc that can obscure the data bc the student often wants to hear what they want to hear. Not all of the time, but those who have been around for 3-5+ years often comment on the pattern.

    Feel free to block me if you don’t want to read my posts, but i’m not going to ignore predatory programs that harm the field.
     
  30. GradStudent2020

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    Yes, when I mentioned in that particular thread that those comparisons did not make sense you responded that you couldn’t find similar time frames in the moment. I don’t think that actually excuses a poor comparison to beef up your argument. There are plenty of factual ways to point out concern with these programs.
     
  31. WisNeuro

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    Ah, I did find it, also where you clearly state the numbers that you were using. I fail to see what the misrepresentation is when you clearly stated what numbers you were using and where you pulled them from.
     
  32. GradStudent2020

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    I don’t recall anyone asserting someone had provided innacurate numbers of match rates. Could you point that out?
     
  33. WisNeuro

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    Ok, to be more accurate, where is the misrepresentation? As all stats were clearly articulated as to where they came from?
     
  34. GradStudent2020

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    Comparing a 10-year time frame to a 1-year time frame is misleading. The poster “explained” why this was done only after it was pointed out.
     
  35. Therapist4Chnge

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    Were the data substantially different? The point was pointing out how bad the Fielding outcome data were compared to ALL match programs.
     
  36. WisNeuro

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    Yet, you claim that these things are not pointed out/corrected. The post was pretty clear about what it was doing. But, I guess misrepresenting things works better for your arguments about misrepresenting things. It's like an Inception of misrepresentation.
     
  37. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    And, in response to the "tone" issue, I thought T4C acknowledged that you (GradStudent, not Wis) made a good point. What a tone-insensitive jerk for doing that!

    Fielding Graduate University
     
  38. GradStudent2020

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    The tone comments were not directed at Therapist4Change. No need to imply they were. I used his fast math as an example because it is a recent one that came to mind. It was corrected explained because I commented on it. No one else challenged the innacuracy and here you are arguing that it shouldn’t have been challenged because it proved a point you agree with.

    Thank you for illustrating my concerns in real-time.
     
  39. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    I wasn't even a part of that thread - I'm confused?

    I was just looking at what you were saying was a negative tone towards you. The data were presented accurately. You didn't like that it was a 10 year timeframe for the program and a 1 year timeframe for the aggregate, and T4C acknowledged that this was a fair point.

    How is this a problem? Sure maybe T4C could have looked up just past year data (and 59% isn't good anyhow), but perhaps they were getting at trends anyways. Wasn't that one of the points of discussion, that it had improved in recent years? Also, where did I ever say that a point shouldn't be challenged? That's the cool things about data, you can present data and then you can talk about it and challenge inferences made based upon it.

    Still confused about why someone throwing around data is a problem. They never mischaracterized what the data were.
     
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  40. MCParent

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    Is cbt or clinical hypnosis recommended for severe burns?
     
  41. Pragma

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    Am I missing something here?
     
  42. memedoctor

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    Ah- perhaps the real debate here should be about whether it is to tap into the fabric of the universe and access objective truth without our mental models of the world getting all muddied by those dirty dirty feelings!! :cigar:
     
  43. psych.meout

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    For everyone complaining about "tone" and civility, I present this example from a recently closed thread, presented in its entirety (bolding is mine):
    The last sentence really is the best.
     
  44. GradStudent2020

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    That entire thread is very illustrative of the tone and civility issues. The OP may have gone off the rails there at the end, but this was after multiple posts (some now deleted) where direct criticism of their personal choices was poorly disguised as “advice” for other students.

    This rant is also a great example where the tone and word choice makes it hard to take the poster seriously, but taken in context there are some valid concerns shared.
     
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  45. OP
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    Sanman

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    Tempers get inflamed and that is what happens. I'm curious as to why we are not allowed to criticize other people's choices? In this particular case, the OP came on here to criticize his/her own program. People can have strong opinions, I know I have some. Getting frustrated and throwing around personal attacks is not appropriate, IMO
     
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  46. psych.meout

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    Their argument was not that people were criticizing their personal choices, but rather that posters were saying that anyone attending Argosy and kinds of programs shouldn't be in graduate school at all. I politely disagreed with them, after which they launched into a diatribe filled with insults directed at me. My point in posting it was that it is illustrative of where the tone and civility problems, if any, actually lie.

    Regardless, there is absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing someone's choices, especially if those choices are contrary to quantifiable facts, are leading other impressionable applicants and students astray, and/or are the reasons that posters come here for advice, help, or to vent. That poster in particular dropped out of their program and kept posting threads about Argosy only to delete them. Their choices led to their situation, which is something people here discuss nearly every day, but somehow we're not supposed to point this out and help other people avoid this situation?
     
  47. memedoctor

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    In the original thread, I made the observation that some people were making insulting and myopic characterizations of student loan borrowers and how much responsibility they bear for the student loan debt problem and the larger impact that it has on society and "taxpayers." These posts were reflective of the kinds of attitudes that put the onus of responsibility on the very same individuals who are getting most screwed by the system, tossing stigma and blame onto the pile of bull**** they're already having to deal with. Some of the characterizations of borrowers being financially illiterate, irresponsible, or just plain stupid were not just insulting, it's reductionistic. It atomizes the problem by rendering it a "behavioral issue" as opposed to an economic or policy issue -- which is admittedly a pretty understandable fall-back for psychologists considering the focus of our training. Those systemic issues were eventually acknowledged and better fleshed out, but they were not the first things criticized. I think we need to be better as a field about not falling into that trap, and pay the hell attention to the much bigger sources of responsibility for the way our society is organized, and not add to the general mental health problems of the populations most affected by these predatory systems.

    So I see where that poster was coming from and I don't think you were being hostile or deserved to be berated; but I also think you were not acknowledging the legitimate frustration that the original poster was expressing and so you got the brunt of it.
     
    #147 memedoctor, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:41 PM
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019 at 10:50 PM
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  48. GradStudent2020

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    Did someone say you are not allowed to criticize personal choices? I’m interested in what (in your opinion) is the difference between criticizing other people’s choices and personal attacks. One you are *for*, and one you feel is not appropriate.
     
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  49. GradStudent2020

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    I read the now deleted threads in their entirety. I’m not faulting anyone for people discussing the issues with problematic grad programs. I do think that the way certain posters discuss the the issues is problematic. I think those threads are particularly illustrative of the “tone” and “snark” issues. You can agree to disagree, but my comments are not a personal attack or even critique of your interactions with that OP.
     
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  50. memedoctor

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    Honestly, while I'm not opposed to the use of snark, my big concern here was the frankly pretty arrogant and myopic analysis that ends up distributing too much attention to the wrong parts of the problem, especially when the quality of attention is more unhelpful than not. I guess you could argue that it's worth saying screw you to the large chunk of people out there straddled with student loan debt right now and setting them up as examples for who not to be, but I think that's pretty bad practice, personally.
     
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