Three years removed from school.

[RCatalyticalChemist]

Hey guys, first time poster. I’m posting here since I’m technically a nontraditional student, but if you guys feel otherwise I’ll post in premed forum.

I was wondering how strong of a candidate I am for medical schools, primarily MD with a few top DO's (MSU, in particular). Also, what schools would I have the best chances of gaining admission? And do I have to retake the MCAT? I am 24 years old, 25 in August.

I graduated three years ago (2012) from a decent University in California, with a 4.0 sGPA, 3.91 cGPA as Summa Cum Laude. I earned my B.S. in Biochemistry and Physics, and I took the MCAT in 2011, with a score of 38Q. I also worked as a scribe in the ER my sophomore to senior years, conducted research all fours years, and I have a variety of volunteer hours and have shadowed multiple doctors in different specialties, both MD and DO.

Now, my whole life I have worked toward becoming a doctor, but during my senior year, my younger brother died in an auto collision, and I was completely devastated. My plan was to apply to medical schools after graduation, and use my gap year to travel, but because of the incident, I fell into a deep depression for about 6 months. After realizing that life essentially goes on (and that I should have applied to medical schools despite the hardship), I decided to travel on the limited budget I had.

My travel time was intended for only about 6 months, just in time to prepare and submit applications during the summer 2013 cycle, but my family received a large settlement from the incident, and my travel time got longer…and longer…and now, I’m here. I essentially got so caught up with seeing the world, that I left my whole life on hold.

Since my graduation, I haven’t really done anything altruistic. I did participate in two volunteer abroad programs (Costa Rica, March 2013, and New Zealand, May 2014), but other than that, everything that I’ve done has been primarily self-serving.

I would like to apply this upcoming cycle, but I want to know if I would be better off waiting another year to pick up where I left off. My MCAT scores are from 2011, and I will be volunteering in Africa for 3 weeks in August. I was also offered my scribe job back, and have been working as a Research Assistant with an old mentor's Phd student for about a month now. Here’s my statistical breakdown:

High school (2004-2008): 3.8 GPA, 2200 SAT, 500 volunteer hours, Young Physician Program at local Level 1 Center, Summer Biomedical research program, Honors Jazz Band (Guitar/T. Sax), Senior Class VP, and Multiple Varsity Letter holder for 3 years. AAA hockey club all fours years. EMT certification the Summer after graduation.

Freshman year (2008-09): 4.0 GPA, Psychology research Fall/Winter/Spring, 1 poster presentation, Shadowed family practice MD and DO (20 hrs each), Volunteered at Big Brother/Sister Program (100 hours), Chemistry research Spring/Summer, premed club, assistant captain of sports club. Academic Research Associate Program at local hospital in Summer.

Sophomore year (2009-10): 4.0 GPA, Chemistry research Fall/Winter/Spring, 2 poster presentations, 1 publication (Chem), shadowed ER Physician (40 hrs) and Psychiatrist (40 hrs), Volunteered at Psych hospital (no patient contact, mostly bed cleaning/janitorial, 100 hours), hired as ER Scribe Winter (~20 hrs/wk), ARA Program Fall/Winter/Spring, Treasurer of premed club, captain/president of sports club team. Study Abroad at Oxford (England) Summer 2010, 1 publication (Psych).

Junior year (2010-11): 4.0 GPA, Biochemical research Fall/Winter/Spring, 2 poster presentations, shadowed Orthopedic surgeon (40 hrs) and Radiologist (40 hrs), Volunteered at homeless shelter (50 hrs) and local health care drive (100 hrs), ER scribe 20 hrs/wk (promoted to chief scribe Spring 11), TA for Physics Fall/Winter/Summer, President of premed club, took MCAT (38Q), renewed EMT certification.

Senior year (2011-12): 4.0 GPA (Fall), 3.5 GPA (Winter), 2.9 GPA (Spring), Biochemical research Fall/Winter, 1 poster presentation, 1 publication (Biochem), shadowed Cardiologist (40 hrs), ENT Surgeon (20 hrs), Pharmacist at hospital (20 hrs, mid-college crisis), and Plastic surgeon lol (8 hrs), volunteered at nursing home (50 hrs), Chief ER scribe 20 hrs/wk, premed club.

Summary: 3.91 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA, Summa Cum Laude, 38Q MCAT, multiple clubs, multiple leadership positions, 400+ hrs volunteer, multiple doctors shadowed, research in psych/chem/biochem/ER, 6 poster presentations, 3 publications, Chief ER scribe, Physics TA, NREMT, Studied Abroad, Academic Research Associate.

Postgrad (2012-2015): Did absolutely nothing until December (Saw therapist/surfed/guitar gigs for cash). 2013: Traveled across the continental U.S for a few months, then volunteered abroad in Costa Rica March 2013. Traveled in U.S again from mid-April to July, then Canada/Alaska from August to October. Beach Bum in Cali for a few months. 2014 Hawaii for about a month, then Australia from March-April, and New Zealand volunteer in May 2014. Traveled to Europe July-December. 2015 Recently got back from a trip in Japan/China that started in Jan.

Strengths: Academics, Research (currently employed in lab right now), Leadership (possible chief scribe position upcoming, however may let an up-and-comer take the position if offered), Networking (know a decent amount of docs from shadowing/scribing as well as professors from uni), Balance (hobbies outside of school)

Weaknesses: Emotional stability (parents currently going through separation, but I'm never home), Suffered from Depression/Anxiety after loss (I have a firm grasp on it now, considering my long therapeutic period), Late applicant, Old MCAT.

I am working as a Research Assistant for Biochemical Engineering (Started April 2015, 28-40 hrs/wk) and will start scribing within the next month (16-20 hrs/wk).

Should I apply to medical schools this year, despite the old MCAT score and travel plans, or should I wait until next cycle (and retake the New MCAT, sigh)? What schools would I have the highest chances of getting an acceptance? Should I do anything else this next year, besides working and volunteering? Perhaps maybe Post-bacc or Masters?

Also, financials are in check. No debt, and will be living with my parents for the next year (if I can handle it). I have a decent savings, so I can apply to as many schools as needed, and waiting another year or two will not hurt me financially. And no, it will not bother me if I am "missing out on $250k by delaying a year"; not interested in money. Geographical area not a big deal either, but I do prefer large, metropolitan areas (patient population), and I want to venture away from SoCal.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I am very sorry to hear about your brother. I think your response to his untimely death was reasonable, and not something that would be too much of a red flag to admissions committees. There's nothing wrong with taking some time to explore the world and do what you want to do... heck, I think it's a smart idea to do things for yourself for a while.

You will have to retake the MCAT pretty much regardless since it will be 4+ years old. FYI, most schools will only take scores that are 2-3 years old. However, your numbers and experiences sound very competitive, and I expect you should be able to get plenty of excellent MD acceptances with another strong MCAT performance and good interviews.

What would you expect to get out of a post-bacc or master's? You are clearly a capable student and have good research experience, so I do not think that either one would demonstrate anything beyond your current application.

I also took three years off and am at MSU-COM, so feel free to let me know if you have any specific questions about that route.

 

[RCatalyticalChemist]

I am very sorry to hear about your brother. I think your response to his untimely death was reasonable, and not something that would be too much of a red flag to admissions committees. There's nothing wrong with taking some time to explore the world and do what you want to do... heck, I think it's a smart idea to do things for yourself for a while.

You will have to retake the MCAT pretty much regardless since it will be 4+ years old. FYI, most schools will only take scores that are 2-3 years old. However, your numbers and experiences sound very competitive, and I expect you should be able to get plenty of excellent MD acceptances with another strong MCAT performance and good interviews.

What would you expect to get out of a post-bacc or master's? You are clearly a capable student and have good research experience, so I do not think that either one would demonstrate anything beyond your current application.

I also took three years off and am at MSU-COM, so feel free to let me know if you have any specific questions about that route.

Thanks for the response, johnamo. I was looking at a post-bacc/masters to mainly demonstrate that I'm still capable of what I accomplished 3 years ago, but I think a high MCAT score will suffice.

As for the MCAT, I already knew the answer, but I suppose I was looking for that glimmer of hope stating otherwise. It's really a disappointment that I have to take the MCAT again (I worked ridiculously hard for that score).

And I do have a few questions about MSU-COM.

1. What is the interaction like, if any, between the DO and MD students at MSU? Is it a supportive-type atmosphere? The opposite? I'm particularly interested because I've heard nothing but great praise of MSU-COM, and so-so (correct me if I'm wrong) reviews of their MD program, and I'm curious as to how the outside perception affects the inner circle (that being the medical students).

2. I must ask, do you have any information as to why the OOS tuition is the highest I've seen for any schools? Besides the reason of trying to keep spots open for Michigan residents. Also, I have family ties in Ann Arbor (went their from 6th-8th grade, lived with grandparents). Any possibility I can claim in-state status?

Thank you in advanced.

 

[tdubst]

I took 3 years off after graduation and sat for the 2011 MCAT as well. I was fortunate that this was the last cycle that 2011 would be valid and was accepted (starting med school at 28).

Considering your strong academics and successful completion of pre-reqs during undergrad, post-bacc and masters would be unnecessary. I would suggest that you review the new MCAT since you will have to take it if you decide to resume you where you left off. If you can produce a strong MCAT score, you will be very competitive.

Since you are financially stable, I would make sure that your personal life is stable as well (family). There is definitely no need to rush in your case.

Btw, I enjoyed a trip to Japan/Italy this past Nov. -- It is time to get things back into gear.

 

[RCatalyticalChemist]

I took 3 years off after graduation and sat for the 2011 MCAT as well. I was fortunate that this was the last cycle that 2011 would be valid and was accepted (starting med school at 28).

Considering your strong academics and successful completion of pre-reqs during undergrad, post-bacc and masters would be unnecessary. I would suggest that you review the new MCAT since you will have to take it if you decide to resume you where you left off. If you can produce a strong MCAT score, you will be very competitive.

Since you are financially stable, I would make sure that your personal life is stable as well (family). There is definitely no need to rush in your case.

Btw, I enjoyed a trip to Japan/Italy this past Nov. -- It is time to get things back into gear.

Thank you. I definitely think that traveling was the best thing I've ever done. I live in large city, and so I thought that it doesn't get much diverse than this. But after traveling, it opened my eyes to just how diverse and complex the world is. The socioeconomic disparities are enormous, and even our lowest income population is nothing compared to some of the stuff I've witnessed. And speaking of Japan, although most of my time was spent at the night scene in Tokyo, I found peace in the rural countrysides. Absolutely beautiful.

I was actually saving up, preparing for my gap year since high school, but I suppose I took it a bit overboard. And yes, looks like it's definitely time to get back on track.

 

[Cawolf]

I think you would be a great applicant pending a new MCAT. Nearly every US school will require a more recent score.

As far as applying this cycle. . . that would be challenging with needing a new MCAT. Even schools that take 3+ year old MCAT scores will be asking for scores from 2012 or later this cycle. It's possible if you scour each admissions website that you may find a handful of schools willing to accept your score, but that would severely limit your application strategy.

 

[mspeedwagon]

First, sorry for your loss! I think your response is acceptable and won't be of much concern.

Also, I cannot stress this enough, but don't waste money on classes or a masters. You are not an academic liability to med school. No school in the country is going to look at your record and think you are at risk to fail the USMLE/COMLEX, which is pretty much what schools seem to care most about.

Finally, I would NOT go to MSU-COM if you're out of state. The tuition is insane and it is very much to keep it as a Michigan school. PCOM, Nova, ATSU. KCUMB to name a few schools or all better bang for the buck. That said, with your record, I'd personally not enough consider DO (unless you are dying to learn OMM). You should have no problem getting into a reputable MD school.

Good luck!

Thanks for the response, johnamo. I was looking at a post-bacc/masters to mainly demonstrate that I'm still capable of what I accomplished 3 years ago, but I think a high MCAT score will suffice.

2. I must ask, do you have any information as to why the OOS tuition is the highest I've seen for any schools? Besides the reason of trying to keep spots open for Michigan residents. Also, I have family ties in Ann Arbor (went their from 6th-8th grade, lived with grandparents). Any possibility I can claim in-state status?

Thank you in advanced.

 

[packersfans]

You seem to understand yourself very well, props for that. Sorry for your loss.

I think you are an insanely competitive applicant. I believe you'll need to take the new MCAT as many schools are no longer accepting the old format. Your a strong student so I'm sure you can study and do well again. Only suggestion I can think of is to maybe do something medically relevant running up and through app season to have something recent on your app. When I applied I was like you 3 years out of school, with tons of activities in undergrad but nothing other than working since then. Did some medically relevant volunteering and community activities and was well received at interviews.

You'll do well. Good luck!

 

[RCatalyticalChemist]

Hey thanks for the input everyone.

After speaking with both my old Scribe Doc and Research mentor last night, I've set my sights on an August MCAT. During the upcoming months, my hours as a RA will be reduced, and I won't be taking the Chief Scribe position, so my responsibility within the hospital won't be too demanding. Actually, a freshman I mentored for Physics will now be the Chief Scribe, so I'm very excited about that (time flies by quick!).

Everything seems to be falling into place again. I haven't even started studying for the MCAT (start Monday), but I'm excited that I have goals in place.

Also, as far as schools go, I've been looking into a few:

University of Michigan (Ann Arbor ties)
UCSF, Boston U, Harvard, Tufts, University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins (Large Metropolitan area)
University of Nevada, Reno and University of Washington (Location)

I do admit, the list was made quite superficially based on previous knowledge and location, so it's in no way finalized. I also feel that research is in my blood, so I know it would be in my best interested looking at research heavy schools (although, I do not want to do MD/Phd).

Also, I can't stress how appreciative I am of the online support. I was always weary of joining the forum back in undergrad due to mixed reactions from fellow premeds, but I was misinformed; SDN is a valuable resource, with a very supportive environment!

 

[Cawolf]

UW can likely be cut unless you are from a WWAMI state.

So you did decide to apply this cycle with an August MCAT?

 

[RCatalyticalChemist]

UW can likely be cut unless you are from a WWAMI state.

So you did decide to apply this cycle with an August MCAT?

In all honesty, no. There's a part of me that says I can swing it, and get into a choice school. However, the realistic part of me knows that I have to devote all my time to the MCAT before I even think of applying. Plus, I'm not sure if there are schools that will even take my previous scores (haven't researched yet).

I suppose I will have my final decision Sunday night, once I have my MCAT study plan scheduled.

 

[Cawolf]

I mean you have obviously shown an aptitude for the MCAT, but you were more in-tune with the material as a college junior. I have no doubt you could do it again, but the lateness of your application will work against you.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Hey again -- sorry for the delay. Pretty busy end to the week! As to your questions:

1. What is the interaction like, if any, between the DO and MD students at MSU? Is it a supportive-type atmosphere? The opposite? I'm particularly interested because I've heard nothing but great praise of MSU-COM, and so-so (correct me if I'm wrong) reviews of their MD program, and I'm curious as to how the outside perception affects the inner circle (that being the medical students).
We have very little interaction with the MD students. The majority of them are no longer in East Lansing now that they built a new school in Grand Rapids. However, I do research with a few MD students and we work together just fine. It's a good atmosphere. We also have many of the same professors teaching our classes. You're correct that the DO school is generally thought of as being... how should I say this... better in its class. We are generally ranked in the top 10 nationally for primary care, while the MD school is pretty mediocre as far as rankings and stats (for MD schools). Of course I'm not saying that it's a bad school -- it's an excellent school. But MSUCOM is, arguably, the best DO school.

2. I must ask, do you have any information as to why the OOS tuition is the highest I've seen for any schools? Besides the reason of trying to keep spots open for Michigan residents. Also, I have family ties in Ann Arbor (went their from 6th-8th grade, lived with grandparents). Any possibility I can claim in-state status?
I'm not exactly sure why the OOS tuition is so astronomical... whether someone randomly decreed that OOS tuition would be double in-state or whether it's founded on something else... I couldn't say. Even with the very high tuition, they turn away thousands of very well-qualified out-of-state students because I believe they have a quota of in-state students they have to reach. It is indeed possible that you could claim in-state status... I believe it's determined on a school-by-school basis and you might be able to use your grandparents' address. However, I don't think your few years spent in Ann Arbor would technically qualify you. However, if you spent one year in Michigan before enrolling you could indeed then qualify for in-state status.

Best of luck!

 

[mspeedwagon]

Every DO student that goes to an established school is going to tell you it's arguably the best. When I interviewed at Nova they talked about how they were the best. Then at PCOM, they said they were the best. Then on to ATSU and they said they were the oldest (can't dispute that, they are) and the best. It's not a one size fits all. I'd be miserably at MSUCOM with the high tuition and cold weather. Rankings in the DO world are worthless. If you look t the match lists, you'll notice that a few things. DO schools tend to have strong ties in their local areas (MSUCOM is likely great for a MI residency, PCOM for Philly, Nova for FL and so forth) and that even people from the relatively newer schools (like Touro-NV) are matching to Mayo. It comes down to COMLEX and USMLE scores.

Be careful with the second point. Yes, you'll qualify, but many schools ask to explain your ties. I moved to NY a year before for the very reason to be in-state, but couldn't get a SUNY interview for the life of me. I did get other MD interviews in NY, but I can only guess it was because of an inability to explain my strong ties to this state.

All that said, go to an MD school. If you keep CA residency and have close to a 4.0 and 38 (or whatever the new equivalent is), you'll do well. If you have to be in Michigan, focus on the University of Michigan.

Hey again -- sorry for the delay. Pretty busy end to the week! As to your questions:

MSUCOM is, arguably, the best DO school.

If you spent one year in Michigan before enrolling you could indeed then qualify for in-state status.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Every DO student that goes to an established school is going to tell you it's arguably the best. When I interviewed at Nova they talked about how they were the best. Then at PCOM, they said they were the best. Then on to ATSU and they said they were the oldest (can't dispute that, they are) and the best. It's not a one size fits all. I'd be miserably at MSUCOM with the high tuition and cold weather. Rankings in the DO world are worthless. If you look t the match lists, you'll notice that a few things. DO schools tend to have strong ties in their local areas (MSUCOM is likely great for a MI residency, PCOM for Philly, Nova for FL and so forth) and that even people from the relatively newer schools (like Touro-NV) are matching to Mayo. It comes down to COMLEX and USMLE scores.

Be careful with the second point. Yes, you'll qualify, but many schools ask to explain your ties. I moved to NY a year before for the very reason to be in-state, but couldn't get a SUNY interview for the life of me. I did get other MD interviews in NY, but I can only guess it was because of an inability to explain my strong ties to this state.

All that said, go to an MD school. If you keep CA residency and have close to a 4.0 and 38 (or whatever the new equivalent is), you'll do well. If you have to be in Michigan, focus on the University of Michigan.

Well, there are a few reasons I could argue MSU is the best DO school.
1) It's well-established.
2) It's affiliated with a Big-10 university and has excellent resources/faculty/research/etc.
3) It gets the most research funding of any DO school.
4) It is the only DO school ranked anywhere near the top of US News rankings.
5) It has a huge proportion (approximately 1/3 - 1/2?) of all AOA residencies in its network of hospitals. So a good connection to Michigan residencies means a good connection to the vast majority of AOA specialty positions.

Of course it's a personal decision. But my arguments (notice I said "arguably") as to why I would put it as "the best" are above.

And there is no issue with being a resident for one year prior to starting classes. Sorry you had a bad experience in New York, but, as I said, residency is decided on a school-by-school basis and the "resident for a year" works for MSU. You just need to not be enrolled in a college during that time (e.g., working for a year is fine). I have several classmates who did this to get in-state status.

Anyhow, I agree that the OP could and should attend a MD school.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I think we are in agreement as long as you stick to "arguably." I can counter almost all your points EXCEPT 3. It does get the most funding (although not much more than some of the other public schools). There are other established DO schools, some have resources equivalent to those found in a Big-10, several other DO schools actually do appear in US News rankings (UNECOM is in there as well as several others: http://www.une.edu/news/2014/une-programs-recognized-us-news-world-report’s-2015-best-graduate-schools-guide) and many other schools send a lot of the class to in-network AOA residencies (NSU sends a lot within their system).

I had a bad experience with NY (ironically, moved out of CA to find a less competitive state school system). I am just cautioning the OP it's a possibility that moving exclusively for the opportunity to go in-state may or may not work out.

But, we are both in agreement as far as the OP is concerned. Go to an MD school. Also, OP, your list is terrible. It needs to be much longer and a lot more diverse. UCSF, Harvard, U-Chicago and Hopkins are insanely competitive. University of Washington only takes kids from certain states. University of Nevada-Reno hugely favors in-state residents as does University of Michigan.

I would recommend adding a large variation of tiers. Your list should comprise of: ALL in-state schools, a handful of reaches (read: Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins and the link), a large number of middle tier (BU, Tufts, Loyola, Georgetown), a few public schools that are friendly to out of staters and a few lower tier schools (Albany Med, NYMC, George Washington). You should be applying to at least 25 schools across the mix.

OP's list from above for reference:
University of Michigan (Ann Arbor ties)
UCSF, Boston U, Harvard, Tufts, University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins (Large Metropolitan area)
University of Nevada, Reno and University of Washington (Location)

Well, there are a few reasons I could argue MSU is the best DO school.
1) It's well-established.
2) It's affiliated with a Big-10 university and has excellent resources/faculty/research/etc.
3) It gets the most research funding of any DO school.
4) It is the only DO school ranked anywhere near the top of US News rankings.
5) It has a huge proportion (approximately 1/3 - 1/2?) of all AOA residencies in its network of hospitals. So a good connection to Michigan residencies means a good connection to the vast majority of AOA specialty positions.

Of course it's a personal decision. But my arguments (notice I said "arguably") as to why I would put it as "the best" are above.

And there is no issue with being a resident for one year prior to starting classes. Sorry you had a bad experience in New York, but, as I said, residency is decided on a school-by-school basis and the "resident for a year" works for MSU. You just need to not be enrolled in a college during that time (e.g., working for a year is fine). I have several classmates who did this to get in-state status.

Anyhow, I agree that the OP could and should attend a MD school.

 

[Cawolf]

a few public schools that are friendly to out of staters

For reference can you provide some good examples?

 

[mspeedwagon]

Sure. SUNY schools, OHSU, Colorado, Maryland, Colorado all come to mind. When you are applying, get an a copy of the MSAR and it'll be pretty obvious which schools take OOS applicants.

For reference can you provide some good examples?