Tips on avoiding the gunner stigma

[Nidor]

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[dyspareunia]

Well, it's just to say it is a descent medical school. Rankings (national and international) are seldom objective let alone applicable to real life. However it is equally silly to assume a student from the lowest ranked US school is automatically better trained then a student from Oxford, Beijing or Leiden university.

Likewise, it's silly to assume that the degree of necessary butt-kissing in Europe is the same as it is in the US, which was the premise of your post.

I don't disagree that playing well with others is important, but the true definition of a gunner is someone who can sabotage and manipulate others while being viewed highly by the adults in the room. A real gunner knows how to play the game.

 

[Nidor]

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[Venko]

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I cannot see your original post so I will just answer based on the topic question.

Gunner means different things to different students and school cultures. Some places it refers to someone who will actively work to sabotage a classmate to get ahead (I believe this is the original use), and in many places it is used to refer to someone who is trying to get the best grades in the class even if they are not sabotaging a classmate to get it. There are in between uses that include those who are showy with their grades etc.

Okay, so I can't tell you how to avoid being called a gunner because that's dependent upon the ways others perceive you which dependent upon not only your behavior but their experiences and worries.

What I can say is that for me...I tried to find ways to make sure I could sleep at night with my behaviors. This meant pushing myself for success and supporting my colleagues by being fair and helpful to them.

Maybe this isn't enough for you but it was enough for me.

To this end, I studied hard and pushed myself to learn the material so that I could earn the best grades I possibly could. This may mean long hours, frequent questions via email or professors open hours, and some during class. It may mean that I did every possible learning experience offered to me. After all, it's what I was paying for with lots of money and sacrifice.

I worked to share what I had learned or created with the class, especially those who I knew were working hard and were equally helpful with their knowledge.

When it comes to clinicals....this got slightly more challenging. On a rotation, if you work hard by pulling research, knowing all the labs tests etc for all the patients, and such and your colleague does not, this will negatively affect their standing. Te balance I found was to unleash myself on the shelf exam and the patients we had on the service. I felt that anything I did related to these two content areas was fair game (at least as I saw it) and so I knew everything I could about our patients and the shelf content. I never sabotaged a colleague so if they wanted to work equally hard it was open to them and I would have loved it.

If someone wants to coast through school and still be rewarded with great grades they are living in a fantasy world. I won't be the one to indulge them by sitting back and drinking whatever kool aid they are drinking.

I was occasionally called a gunner but I'm okay with it. I helped everyone who asked for reasonable help, I never actively undermined a colleague, and I did my best to learn my craft at each stage of my ability. I gave every ounce of energy and thought i had to the matter.

Why do I feel strongly about earning the best grades possible? It is te only self assessment I had at the time to judge my content understanding and my application. I used it as a marker for my effort and dedication to my task at hand. Now as someone who had spent a few years assisting in ranking students and being in practice for a few years I can say I am always surprised by how much I do remember from those days. Also, every rank list committee I have supported held to the adage that past performance is the best predictor of future performance. Certainly everyone knows a person who struggled with exams or something and scored low (I've had my share) and then went on to be a fantastic clinician, and people know the top of the class graduate who went on to be a terrible clinician, but looking as a whole, past performance is the best predictor of future success.

Remember many people will call you gunner because your effort makes them feel bad about the lack of effort they have exerted or the lack of interest they have in learning the subject. Certainly if you work to hinder your classmates then you have earned the title. You have gunned them down...after all that's how the term started I'm told.

Anyways, I sleep very well everyday🙂

 

[alpinism]

Here is the google cache of the original post:

"So I was fortunate enough to be accepted at my top choice school very early during the cycle and I've been spending most of my gap year traveling/working. I had a lot of down time though so, against the SDN consensus, I did a fair amount of 'pre-studying'. The thing is, I'm realizing that I'm a gunner. I've already read several textbooks and I'm familiar with ~75% of FA and know at least a third of it cold (mostly the organ-based systems).

Yes, I have First Aid. Yes, I have both the 2013 and 2014 editions. Yes, I'm aware that I'm [insert demeaning adjective here].

I've come across a lot of MS1+2 students in the past few months through my research gig and eavesdropped on them as they get pimped during shadowing sessions and I'm already looking down on them because I feel like I've learned more clinically relevant/testable material in a few months of self-study than they have in 2 years of med school.

So basically, I'm turning into an enormous prick and I don't know what to do about it. I like being an over-achiever, but I'm obviously worried about how my future classmates/professors/doctors will see me if I'm perceived as a gunner. As stupid as this sounds, does anyone have any tips on how I can avoid the stigma of gunner-ism without compromising my natural sense of competitiveness/intellectual curiousity? What are the specific behaviors of gunners that people dislike the most?
TL,DR: I'm a pre-MS1 gunner and I don't think my personality is going to change. What can I do so people won't hate me?"

Internet skills win.

OP, If you were a real gunner you would have memorized 100% of Robbins prior to M1.

Also, what is this 75% BS? Are you only going to treat 75% of your patient's diseases?

Somewhere out there one of your classmates has already memorized all of Robbins and he is looking down on you.

 

[alpinism]

Obviously this is a troll thread. But do people actually act like this in med school?

I never hung out with pre meds so I didn't get first hand experience of gunners in the wild.

Unfortunately there's always a few in every class.

 

[lymphohystiocytosis]

Lol at all the guys criticizing the original gunner and feeling all high and mighty, then turning around and mocking the guy who goes to school in Belgium.

 

[Chrissisissi]

Oh I can help you out with this:
1) Don't ask questions just to hear the sound of your own voice. (This refers to those people that ask a long winded fancy question that they definitely already
know the answer to just to get noticed by the lecturer.)
2)Don't ask people about test grades. (Mind your business. This refers to those people that ask everyone what they got on everything to assure themselves that they did better than everyone else. This is especially infuriating in a P/F setting. )
3)Related don't talk about your super high MCAT grade and/or don't announce your super high test grades through the hall. (It's cool that you got an awesome MCAT grade but we're in med school now. We DO NOT CARE 🙂 Just try not to be arrogant. Be sensitive to the fact that not everyone may be "crushing it". Be Modest.
4)Don't be condescending. As a woman who has a somewhat high voice and as someone who jokes around a lot and who is "bubbly" I guess you could say, before people get to know me, sometimes they assume I am stupid. I'm okay with that as long as they don't talk to me like I am stupid. If someone asks a question don't answer them like they are 5. Everyone in medical school is there for a reason. They are all intelligent people and you should treat them as such.

In conclusion, just try to be a nice person. Be aware of how others are reacting to you. HOLD ON to your social skills.
Hope that helps 🙂

 

[Venko]

Oh I can help you out with this:
1) Don't ask questions just to hear the sound of your own voice. (This refers to those people that ask a long winded fancy question that they definitely already
know the answer to just to get noticed by the lecturer.)
2)Don't ask people about test grades. (Mind your business. This refers to those people that ask everyone what they got on everything to assure themselves that they did better than everyone else. This is especially infuriating in a P/F setting. )
3)Related don't talk about your super high MCAT grade and/or don't announce your super high test grades through the hall. (It's cool that you got an awesome MCAT grade but we're in med school now. We DO NOT CARE 🙂 Just try not to be arrogant. Be sensitive to the fact that not everyone may be "crushing it". Be Modest.
4)Don't be condescending. As a woman who has a somewhat high voice and as someone who jokes around a lot and who is "bubbly" I guess you could say, before people get to know me, sometimes they assume I am stupid. I'm okay with that as long as they don't talk to me like I am stupid. If someone asks a question don't answer them like they are 5. Everyone in medical school is there for a reason. They are all intelligent people and you should treat them as such.

In conclusion, just try to be a nice person. Be aware of how others are reacting to you. HOLD ON to your social skills.
Hope that helps 🙂

I agree with almost all of this an especially the bottom line of being a kind person.

With that said, if someone achieves highly on a very difficult exam, it's important that they be allowed to celebrate their success for the sake of positive reinforcement. If they are not saying it for te purpose f putting others down but rather to celebrate their achievements.

I feel like others need to have stronger senses of self to know that one persons success is not a way of diminishing another persons self worth. Just announcing your grade is not wrong...again unless you are trying to hurt others.

Michael phelps has a right to pump his fists and celebrate his accomplishments.

 

[Anastomoses]

With that said, if someone achieves highly on a very difficult exam, it's important that they be allowed to celebrate their success for the sake of positive reinforcement. If they are not saying it for te purpose f putting others down but rather to celebrate their achievements.

I feel like others need to have stronger senses of self to know that one persons success is not a way of diminishing another persons self worth. Just announcing your grade is not wrong...again unless you are trying to hurt others.

Michael phelps has a right to pump his fists and celebrate his accomplishments.

Totally this. I never understand the idea that we shouldn't share in the success of those who do well. You outscored me? You're a badass! I might even tease you by getting you a treat or putting a sticker on your paper. I think we need to start squashing the "hater culture".

You did just okay or not so good? Smile politely and go to your room to sulk for two days, regroup, make a better plan for next time.

 

[dyspareunia]

I agree with almost all of this an especially the bottom line of being a kind person.

With that said, if someone achieves highly on a very difficult exam, it's important that they be allowed to celebrate their success for the sake of positive reinforcement. If they are not saying it for te purpose f putting others down but rather to celebrate their achievements.

I feel like others need to have stronger senses of self to know that one persons success is not a way of diminishing another persons self worth. Just announcing your grade is not wrong...again unless you are trying to hurt others.

Michael phelps has a right to pump his fists and celebrate his accomplishments.

Speaking from experience, I'm less likely to outwardly celebrate (i.e. smile publicly) a high score on a difficult exam. For one, I don't want people to think I'm an dingus, but I mainly don't want to make other people feel bad about their test score.

Someone who gets a 70 likely won't tell people because they are embarrassed. Someone who gets a 100 likely won't tell people because they don't want to embarrass their classmates. I've never gotten a 100, or a 70 for that matter, but I think these are generally true statements.

 

[DocVapor]

I agree with almost all of this an especially the bottom line of being a kind person.

With that said, if someone achieves highly on a very difficult exam, it's important that they be allowed to celebrate their success for the sake of positive reinforcement. If they are not saying it for te purpose f putting others down but rather to celebrate their achievements.

I feel like others need to have stronger senses of self to know that one persons success is not a way of diminishing another persons self worth. Just announcing your grade is not wrong...again unless you are trying to hurt others.

Michael phelps has a right to pump his fists and celebrate his accomplishments.

Agree about people getting a thicker skin. However it's a pretty thin line between celebrating and being classy about it, and celebrating and being an ass about it.

Also, I'm not big on the Michael Phelps analogy. He won in direct competition against the other participants. Medical school isn't as much of a direct competition because not everyone is swimming for the same finish line.

 

[Venko]

Agree about people getting a thicker skin. However it's a pretty thin line between celebrating and being classy about it, and celebrating and being an ass about it.

Also, I'm not big on the Michael Phelps analogy. He won in direct competition against the other participants. Medical school isn't as much of a direct competition because not everyone is swimming for the same finish line.

Fair enough...how about this...

I am terrible at fixing things or building things. When I replaced the bathroom fixtures and lighting features, I told everyone about it. I didn't tell them because they need to bow in my presence but because I was so proud of overcoming an obstacle I found challenging.

If two people aren't competing...there should be no hurt feelings about celebrating a success

If they are competing, then the phelps analogy works.

This is kind of like the idea that every kid should get a trophy so no one walks away hurt...just on a bigger scale.

Lets face it...if you can't stand someone celebrating who worked fairly and achieved a higher grade than you...there is an element of being a poor sport on your part.

Think about it...if it feels bad that you got a 70%...it's because you feel as though that grade isn't reflective of the effort you put in or the outcome you know you can achieve...work to fix it. I can honestly say it can be fixed... This is not magic or chance or voodoo....this is knowing the answer when the question is posed in any format.

Be humble in defeat and ask for guidance and if you achieved and are in a position to offer guidance do so.

It's really unfair and unhelpful to make those who succeed not show it. After all, when the person who gets 70's finally gets the 100...shouldn't they be able to cheer for their success? It's stupid to tell them to walk away like nothing happened. That score usually reflects a lot of sacrifice and effort. Cheer for yourself!

 

[DermViser]

Agree about people getting a thicker skin. However it's a pretty thin line between celebrating and being classy about it, and celebrating and being an ass about it.

Also, I'm not big on the Michael Phelps analogy. He won in direct competition against the other participants. Medical school isn't as much of a direct competition because not everyone is swimming for the same finish line.

Depends on if you're going for a competitive specialty or not. Everyone is swimming for the same barrier to entry, to enter a residency position, an MD, as evidenced by a diploma. It's what's behind that MD which is what is different.

 

[Flamen04]

My tip: If you're gonna gun:

1. Have big guns
2. Gun hard
3. Make sure you kill the other person so they don't live to tell stories about your gunning
4. Profit

 

[dyspareunia]

My tip: If you're gonna gun:

1. Have big guns
2. Gun hard
3. Make sure you kill the other person so they don't live to tell stories about your gunning
4. Profit

I lold pretty hard.

 

[DermViser]

Totally this. I never understand the idea that we shouldn't share in the success of those who do well. You outscored me? You're a badass! I might even tease you by getting you a treat or putting a sticker on your paper. I think we need to start squashing the "hater culture".

You did just okay or not so good? Smile politely and go to your room to sulk for two days, regroup, make a better plan for next time.

Part of med school is being flexible and not cracking at the first sign of adversity. This applies to med school, residency, life as an attending, and life in general. It's a life skill.

 

[PL198]

I'm not an M3, but I feel like your outward appearance is about 10x more important towards your grade than your actual body of knowledge. If they feel you work hard, go out of your way to help people around you, never complain, always try to be positive, then I don't really see someone getting poor marks.

 

[DermViser]

I'm not an M3, but I feel like your outward appearance is about 10x more important towards your grade than your actual body of knowledge. If they feel you work hard, go out of your way to help people around you, never complain, always try to be positive, then I don't really see someone getting poor marks.

Those things you mention are hardly outward appearance. They're very criticial to being a doctor and being taken seriously. A physician is more than just being able to regurgitate facts on a multiple choice exam.

 

[PL198]

Those things you mention are hardly outward appearance. They're very criticial to being a doctor and being taken seriously. A physician is more than just being able to regurgitate facts on a multiple choice exam.

Yeah, I just meant that one's qualities besides knowledge seem much more important.

 

[dyspareunia]

Yeah, I just meant that one's qualities besides knowledge seem much more important.

Knowledge is the most important quality though, is it not? Perhaps not the type of knowledge necessary for picking the one best answer, but I would take House over Mary Poppins 10 times out of 10.

 

[PL198]

Knowledge is the most important quality though, is it not? Perhaps not the type of knowledge necessary for picking the one best answer, but I would take House over Mary Poppins 10 times out of 10.

I don't think so. Maybe you would take house if it was life-threatening but house is a TV show and not representative of the average patient. It's way better to have 80 percent of the knowledge and be able to express it effectively, versus 100 percent of the knowledge and not. This isn't to say that someone couldn't be both, but I certainly wouldn't say knowledge is the most important quality.

 

[dyspareunia]

I don't think so. Maybe you would take house if it was life-threatening but house is a TV show and not representative of the average patient. It's way better to have 80 percent of the knowledge and be able to express it effectively, versus 100 percent of the knowledge and not. This isn't to say that someone couldn't be both, but I certainly wouldn't say knowledge is the most important quality.

I'd still choose a smart jerk over a dumb sweetheart.

 

[PL198]

Fair enough...how about this...

I am terrible at fixing things or building things. When I replaced the bathroom fixtures and lighting features, I told everyone about it. I didn't tell them because they need to bow in my presence but because I was so proud of overcoming an obstacle I found challenging.

If two people aren't competing...there should be no hurt feelings about celebrating a success

If they are competing, then the phelps analogy works.

This is kind of like the idea that every kid should get a trophy so no one walks away hurt...just on a bigger scale.

Lets face it...if you can't stand someone celebrating who worked fairly and achieved a higher grade than you...there is an element of being a poor sport on your part.

Think about it...if it feels bad that you got a 70%...it's because you feel as though that grade isn't reflective of the effort you put in or the outcome you know you can achieve...work to fix it. I can honestly say it can be fixed... This is not magic or chance or voodoo....this is knowing the answer when the question is posed in any format.

Be humble in defeat and ask for guidance and if you achieved and are in a position to offer guidance do so.

It's really unfair and unhelpful to make those who succeed not show it. After all, when the person who gets 70's finally gets the 100...shouldn't they be able to cheer for their success? It's stupid to tell them to walk away like nothing happened. That score usually reflects a lot of sacrifice and effort. Cheer for yourself!

I disagree with the whole telling other people things. The only reason you wanted to tell them was for recognition of your action. If you had simply wanted to be proud of yourself for yourself, you have no reason to tell anyone else. You are seeking their approval by telling them. Being proud doesn't require you to proclaim your achievements. It's definitely possible to be proud and not feel the need to share your accomplishment with others. Based on what you said throughout your journey, it seems like most outsiders couldn't appreciate what you went through, and thus would be unable to truly appreciate your accomplishments. Therefore this would make it silly to share with them.

Just my take.

 

[PL198]

I'd still choose a smart jerk over a dumb sweetheart.

If someone is a doctor or medical student, they aren't going to be dumb 99/100. Most likely the comparison is a small amount of intelligence difference and a huge amount of personality difference. If we are talking patient care, it is my belief that the small amount of intelligence difference would definitely not provide a superior gain vs the huge amount of personablity.

 

[Wordead]

I'd still choose a smart jerk over a dumb sweetheart.

As a patient, I would agree with you. However, if you were picking someone to WORK with, I'm going to pick the 80% + nice over 100% + dingus.

 

[Wordead]

Patients don't seem to agree with that either. Apparently it's the docs with less bedside manner that are sued more frequently than the ones w/more of it.

Most patients are *****s and it's a shame how much patient satisfaction rules medicine. But I was just speaking for what I would want in a physician. I dont need a handjob with my healthcare.

 

[dyspareunia]

If someone is a doctor or medical student, they aren't going to be dumb 99/100. Most likely the comparison is a small amount of intelligence difference and a huge amount of personality difference. If we are talking patient care, it is my belief that the small amount of intelligence difference would definitely not provide a superior gain vs the huge amount of personablity.

Dumb relative to the other doctors.

 

[PL198]

Most patients are *****s and it's a shame how much patient satisfaction rules medicine. But I was just speaking for what I would want in a physician. I dont need a handjob with my healthcare.

I mean they're always nice, but I see what you mean. I think that healthcare professionals when they try to play the patient role tend to undervalue the emotional side due to it being their field of study. I feel like this is true of any profession when they put themselves in the shoes of their customer. (Gasp I said it, patients are customers of docs)

 

[PL198]

Dumb relative to the other doctors.

But that's like taking a crappy NBA player, they're still a god at it compared to the average person. And the difference among those players is marginal, which still results in a ton of stratification. Medicine is the same way IMO. There's very little actual intelligence difference among physicians.

 

[dyspareunia]

But that's like taking a crappy NBA player, they're still a god at it compared to the average person. And the difference among those players is marginal, which still results in a ton of stratification. Medicine is the same way IMO. There's very little actual intelligence difference among physicians.

Wow, are you really making such a nit picky argument right now? Let me spell it out for you since you're clearly of the lower stratification.

All doctors are intelligent. All doctors can diagnose simple things. Doctor A is a total dingus, but never misses a diagnosis even if it's a rare disease that often goes unnoticed until it's too late. Doctor B is super nice and gives me stickers and lollipops every visit, but has to refer patients if they have anything more than the flu.

I'm picking Doctor A every single time.

I don't care how smart or skilled my doctor is compared to a lay person because that's absolutely irrelevant. The NBA doesn't look at players and think "wow, this guy can play better than the YMCA league, let's sign them!" And, if you think the difference between NBA players is "marginal" then you must not know a single thing about sports.

 

[PL198]

Wow, are you really making such a nit picky argument right now? Let me spell it out for you since you're clearly of the lower stratification.

All doctors are intelligent. All doctors can diagnose simple things. Doctor A is a total dingus, but never misses a diagnosis even if it's a rare disease that often goes unnoticed until it's too late. Doctor B is super nice and gives me stickers and lollipops every visit, but has to refer patients if they have anything more than the flu.

I'm picking Doctor A every single time.

I don't care how smart or skilled my doctor is compared to a lay person because that's absolutely irrelevant. The NBA doesn't look at players and think "wow, this guy can play better than the YMCA league, let's sign them!"

It's not nitpicky, its just that your comparison is unrealistic.

 

[girlofgrace7]

Wow, are you really making such a nit picky argument right now? Let me spell it out for you since you're clearly of the lower stratification.

All doctors are intelligent. All doctors can diagnose simple things. Doctor A is a total dingus, but never misses a diagnosis even if it's a rare disease that often goes unnoticed until it's too late. Doctor B is super nice and gives me stickers and lollipops every visit, but has to refer patients if they have anything more than the flu.

I'm picking Doctor A every single time.

I don't care how smart or skilled my doctor is compared to a lay person because that's absolutely irrelevant. The NBA doesn't look at players and think "wow, this guy can play better than the YMCA league, let's sign them!" And, if you think the difference between NBA players is "marginal" then you must not know a single thing about sports.

I find that most doctors who are intelligent but complete jerks are often clouded by their perception of their own intelligence. I know incredibly intelligent doctors who are well published and respected in their field with zero bedside manner, but they often get diagnoses wrong because they haven't taken the time to actually listen to the patient (or the patient is so intimidated by the doctor's poor bedside manner that they won't share pertinent details... I've seen it happen time and time again, and I've been one of those patients). Some of these intelligent jerks go so far as to refuse to review patients' charts because they have already jumped to a conclusion about a diagnosis and plan when they don't have full information about their patient. The practice of medicine is about so much more than book knowledge. I don't care if you've memorized every word in Robbins/First Aid/every book in your given field and can answer clinical vignettes. If you can't get a patient to trust you enough to share vital information, are not humble enough to take your time and properly examine (or reexamine) your diagnoses, or can not persuade patients to go along with a given plan (whether that's surgery, medication, or a lifestyle change), all the intelligence in the world won't make you a good doctor. Also, doctor A and B are not fair comparisons. There are tons of doctors out there with both intelligence and decent bedside manner... I'm not dealing with a doctor who is a jerk no matter how "intelligent" he may be.

 

[Venko]

Hi gang, I'm not really sure what is being argued...

Most physicians are neither all intelligence or all bedside manner. We are all learning and improving and have days and patients with whom we have better interactions and others where we are accurate in our care and te inverse is true too.

The OP I think was talking about gunnership...lets refocus on that if we can. Being a jerk is not synonymous with being a gunner and not being a gunner doesn't mean you have great bedside manner.

Academic knowledge and bedside manner are two completely different traits that aren't connected. It stands out when a physician has all of one and none of the other but that's not usually the case. Usually people are in the middle on both counts and even varies by the moment and day within a small range.

So...being a gunner has no direct relation to your bedside manner. It is more of a description of your sportsmanship so to speak when competing in medical school. Some people will use it as an adjective for anyone who works hard, but who cares about that use...we should all desire to be called that kind of gunner.