Tirade on Personal Statements

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punkedoutriffs said:
I disagree, because it's furthered my own personal insight, and judging from some of the responses, others' as well. I don't consider that pointless.
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pointless is too strong a term, so i'll rephrase as 'lacking a practical purpose.' one of the many reasons med school in the us is a graduate school is, imo, to allow this kind of reflection and growth. some people aren't going to get around to it, but there is very little you or i can do about it.

also, based on some other responses here, i'm sorry if the tl;dr picture offended you in any way, but considering i actually did read your post i think you took it as the joke that it was.
 
surftheiop said:
Its like a tag team, massively long post with tons of quotes cage-match in there.

I read like one page and just :boom:
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yep. the epic multiquote posts are impossible to follow
 
bleargh said:
pointless is too strong a term, so i'll rephrase as 'lacking a practical purpose.' one of the many reasons med school in the us is a graduate school is, imo, to allow this kind of reflection and growth. some people aren't going to get around to it, but there is very little you or i can do about it.

also, based on some other responses here, i'm sorry if the tl;dr picture offended you in any way, but considering i actually did read your post i think you took it as the joke that it was.
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I'll be honest, I wasn't expecting the pictures. They were a little amusing. Here's the thing bleargh, should people in fact jump on the med school rollercoaster before they've done this reflection and growth? I feel like with debts as high as they are, that's not a very wise decision.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
I'll be honest, I wasn't expecting the pictures. They were a little amusing. Here's the thing bleargh, should people in fact jump on the med school rollercoaster before they've done this reflection and growth? I feel like with debts as high as they are, that's not a very wise decision.
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that's why there's a personal statement to demonstrate these qualities, which is why it's confusing that this is supposed to a 'tirade'
 
My friends,

A little reminder:

" users who are aware of another user’s personal information (including name and location) must respect that user’s privacy and not reveal his or her personal information on the boards. For more information, please read the Student Doctor Network Privacy Policy."
 
Jeez what the hell. Following this Robinson character's thought process it would seem that no one, not just premeds, choose a career without being influenced by some external factor. Well, no **** sherlocks. Isn't that the reason that people are told to go shadow a doctor or volunteer in the hospital to see what being a doctor truly entails? You can want to be a surgeon but once you know that surgical interns have ****ty hours and lives for 5 years you may not want to go into that field. Yes, there's always those pressured into medicine but the interview, rigors of med school and intern years tend to weed out the less dedicated.

Finally, the personal statement is part of the process just like the MCATs and just like the interview. I hated the MCATs and I'll curse it until I die but it's not going to change so why not stop bitching about the PS and just do it.
 
I am now coming to the realization that the long and rambling essay by the OP was not a PS but was a tirade against the requirement that the applicant write a PS.

I stand by my statement that a good writer can construct a sentence without using the third person singular to denote any single person of either gender.
 
LizzyM said:
" users who are aware of another user’s personal information (including name and location) must respect that user’s privacy and not reveal his or her personal information on the boards. For more information, please read the Student Doctor Network Privacy Policy."
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This. Revealing or trying to uncover another user's personal information is against the Terms of Service. Please don't do it.
 
LizzyM said:
I am now coming to the realization that the long and rambling essay by the OP was not a PS but was a tirade against the requirement that the applicant write a PS.

I stand by my statement that a good writer can construct a sentence without using the third person singular to denote any single person of either gender.
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Agreed. That was negligence on my part.
 
LizzyM said:
I stand by my statement that a good writer can construct a sentence without using the third person singular to denote any single person of either gender.
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Seeing as we are on the topic, what do you all think about using "They" for a third person neutered pronoun?

Ie. "I talked to my friend yesterday and they said <blank>."

I had a linguistics professor who felt its completely acceptable to use "they" in that manner. She has been in linguistics for several decades and seems to think that its about time for the old-school English grammar people to stop complaining about it.
 
surftheiop said:
Seeing as we are on the topic, what do you all think about using "They" for a third person neutered pronoun?

Ie. "I talked to my friend yesterday and they said <blank>."

I had a linguistics professor who felt its completely acceptable to use "they" in that manner. She has been in linguistics for several decades and seems to think that its about time for the old-school English grammar people to stop complaining about it.
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I think it's still frowned upon in most of academia.
 
mdschlmyb said:
just out of curiosity, how WOULD you rephrase a sentence to avoid using "he/she" or "him or her" or some other derivative of that?
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Usually, you recompose the sentence so that you're not forced to use a pronoun in that regard. Or, you can substitute "one" or "the individual."
 
I liked the essay! It's hardly ground-breaking, but definitely a viable concern in regards to PS writing and interviewing.
The illusion of the virgin-birthed *calling* has been long pushed by the admissions process, and I'm not entirely sure why, except for the fact that contributing factors are rarely selfless and romantic. Heaven forbid physicians be subject to the forces of development like every other person on the planet!

But if there are two viewpoints on the workings of life (psychologically speaking, I suppose they would be intuitives vs. Sensors), those who naturally look for motivations are at a disadvantage because really *showing who you are* in an honest way is virtually impossible unless you've sponge-bathed dying infants in Africa.
 
surftheiop said:
Seeing as we are on the topic, what do you all think about using "They" for a third person neutered pronoun?

Ie. "I talked to my friend yesterday and they said <blank>."

I had a linguistics professor who felt its completely acceptable to use "they" in that manner. She has been in linguistics for several decades and seems to think that its about time for the old-school English grammar people to stop complaining about it.
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I hear the same thing from my English professor friend who argues that they as a third person singular for a non-specific person of either gender was widely used in some century long ago (I don't recall the specifics.)
 
mdschlmyb said:
just out of curiosity, how WOULD you rephrase a sentence to avoid using "he/she" or "him or her" or some other derivative of that?
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"I talked to my dog yesterday. He said that if I buy better dog food, he will live longer."

vs

"Yesterday I had a conversation with my dog, who hinted that feeding pets high quality dog food improves longevity."

Easy to do. The real question is: does anybody care? I know I don't.
 
JJMrK said:
"I talked to my dog yesterday. He said that if I buy better dog food, he will live longer."

vs

"Yesterday I had a conversation with my dog, who hinted that feeding pets high quality dog food improves longevity."

Easy to do. The real question is: does anybody care? I know I don't.
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A child will cry if you tease him/her.

A child will cry if teased.

It isn't complicated.
 
LOL @ Megaspectacular!!

I remember when I was 4 years old and I told my mom, "I would like to go into Radiation Oncology, sub-specializing in vascular and interventional radiology." She slapped my ass and said it was cute, after putting on my Pull-Ups.[/QUOTE]

LOL...you made your point very effectively with this post...wink wink. I think more than anything, what Girlofgrace has is a 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. I don't think the OP put forth this argument to exhaustively qualify every pre-meds personal circumstance. However, I must say that Skinnerism applied in this manner illustrates the relative superficiality of people's understanding of their own motivations and intentions as it relates to an actualized life.
 
ResIpsaLoquitur said:
I must say that Skinnerism applied in this manner illustrates the relative superficiality of people's understanding of their own motivations and intentions as it relates to an actualized life.
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This person gets it.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
This is my first post on this site, and it's a long one, but if anyone of you has the time, I'd appreciate it if you'd read it and lend me your thoughts.

Yet, at the time of application, the medical school candidate cannot or is unwilling to face or disclose the fact that they are not in fact the school’s ideal poster-student of passion, commitment, compassion, understanding, and zeal, that they haven’t lived a life conducive to shaping them in that way, and that there’s no readily available remedy for such a “deficiency” in their qualifications.
.
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Very insightful. I found this post very useful in my general mullings of the human condition as it relates to medicine. Do not be dissuaded by the naysayers who want to discredit the essence of what you state in this post. I am inclined to believe it has likely 'struck a nerve' judging by where the strongest opposition is coming from. Keep it up. I walk with you on this!!
 
MegaSpectacular said:
gratuitous introspection is so so very dull IMHO.
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one of my MCAT verbal passages claimed that's what makes a good writer.

skiddoc said:
Does the prompt say we're not allowed to use he/she? Got dammit, I have to start over 🙁
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why not write s/he? shorter, faster, easier (that's what she said)

punkedoutriffs said:
Usually, you recompose the sentence so that you're not forced to use a pronoun in that regard. Or, you can substitute "one" or "the individual."
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ughhhh i hate those essays that have a million references to "one" or "the individual".

LizzyM said:
A child will cry if you tease him/her.

A child will cry if teased.

It isn't complicated.
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exactly, however if attempting to make the tone less formal, the first example works better, imo. but i'm also a strong proponent of NOT using s/he. just use male or female and keep in consistant.
 
OP, I believe that a lot of the flak you're taking is due to the self-congratulatory tone of this thread. No one likes a show-off.

In the course of our college careers, we have all written similar pieces. In this thread, it sounds like you're fishing for compliments on an essay that you are proud of.

It's not a bad thing to take pride in your writing. However, you should know that most of the world does not care. It matters not how smart you are, past a certain minimal threshold of functioning.

Please learn from this thread and refrain from making embarassing posts/statements in the future. I have a feeling that it will improve your relationships with the people around you.

Bottom line, there are appropriate places for recieving feedback on writing assignments, but this forum is not one. You're an intelligent person, but you need some socialization.

That said, good luck in your classes and beyond.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
This becomes very controversial in some fields (humanities) penetrated by feminist ideals.
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...*unspoken twss moment*

i usually use the male as default, however sometimes i switch it up. (i also use female if referring to boat, car, etc...). never had a problem. then again, i don't use it excessively. LizzyM is right in that you shouldn't have to use it so that it's noticeable. the reader should not notice the author's writing while reading. the reader should be engrossed with excellent writing to the point that they come away with the story/feeling/tone rather than an opinion of the writer's ability. it's only when asked to analyze does one look at things like that.


(yes, i used "one" there^^, but i was kind of trying to sound pretentious so you guys would over look my twss joke at the beginning)
 
Dial71 said:
OP, I believe that a lot of the flak you're taking is due to the self-congratulatory tone of this thread. No one likes a show-off.

In the course of our college careers, we have all written similar pieces. In this thread, it sounds like you're fishing for compliments on an essay that you are proud of.

It's not a bad thing to take pride in your writing. However, you should know that most of the world does not care. It matters not how smart you are, past a certain minimal threshold of functioning.

Please learn from this thread and refrain from making embarassing posts/statements in the future. I have a feeling that it will improve your relationships with the people around you.

Bottom line, there are appropriate places for recieving feedback on writing assignments, but this forum is not one. You're an intelligent person, but you need some socialization.

That said, good luck in your classes and beyond.
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What you say is true, and I appreciate the advice. I will work on my "showoff" tendencies. At the same time, the very heart of the essay has, I believe, elicited valid and intelligent responses and reactions. It's also something I'm genuinely struggling with, and it is a genuine solicitation for advice/connection.
 
As for the original argument, I believe that attempting to assign a cause to biographical events is a doomed endeavour for the reasons you explained.

However, the PS is not about your history. Instead, it is an expression of who you are today. It explains your current character and motivation to study medicine. These traits exist in the present. Any disscussion of your past should be reserved for illuminating your present self.

In this regard, I believe that arguments of free-will are completely beside the point.

Med schools don't want biographies; instead, they want personal statements. These are two very different documents.
 
Dial71 said:
Med schools don't want biographies; instead, they want personal statements. These are two very different documents.
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Well, I know what they want, but the problem comes when one questions the nature of one's motives and find that they're not characteristic of the ideal. This may be fine if one is content with that fact, but personally, I find it uncomfortable. I think that once I've gotten a hold of this knowledge, to then go through with writing a PS that "adcoms want" but is not reflective of my pure intentions does ME a disservice, and arguably does my future patients a disservice as well.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
Well, I know what they want, but the problem comes when one questions the nature of one's motives and find that they're not characteristic of the ideal. This may be fine if one is content with that fact, but personally, I find it uncomfortable. I think that once I've gotten a hold of this knowledge, to then go through with writing a PS that "adcoms want" but is not reflective of my pure intentions does ME a disservice, and arguably does my future patients a disservice as well.
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@ Dial 71
It is the disconnect between the biography, and the personal statement that this post alludes to. The tactical application of Skinnerism is meant to highlight the schism between the reality(i.e. biographical aptitude/inaptitude) and the utility of the benchmark used to evalute that biographical aptitude/inaptitude(i.e. overwhelmingly euphemized experiences preached/romanticized in a PS). For anyone guided by honest introspection, biography should merge seamlessly with the PS in qualifying one's conscious desire for medicine (or anything similar in profundity). However, for a great many on the other end of the spectrum, there exists a fundamental discord between experience and aspiration. The OP succinctly paints a truer picture of this deficit, and the disillusionment that fuels it!!

I hope that helps some🙂
 
punkedoutriffs said:
Well, I know what they want, but the problem comes when one questions the nature of one's motives and find that they're not characteristic of the ideal. This may be fine if one is content with that fact, but personally, I find it uncomfortable. I think that once I've gotten a hold of this knowledge, to then go through with writing a PS that "adcoms want" but is not reflective of my pure intentions does ME a disservice, and arguably does my future patients a disservice as well.
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i don't think this "ideal" is real (teehee) i think a lot of your issues has to do with a misunderstanding of the process. LizzyM herself has stated many times they are looking for a mature, well-tested interested in medicine
 
ResIpsaLoquitur said:
@ Dial 71
It is the disconnect between the biography, and the personal statement that this post alludes to. The tactical application of Skinnerism is meant to highlight the schism between the reality(i.e. biographical aptitude/inaptitude) and the utility of the benchmark used to evalute that biographical aptitude/inaptitude(i.e. overwhelmingly euphemized experiences preached/romanticized in a PS). For anyone guided by honest introspection, biography should merge seamlessly with the PS in qualifying one's conscious desire for medicine (or anything similar in profundity). However, for a great many on the other end of the spectrum, there exists a fundamental discord between experience and aspiration. The OP succinctly paints a truer picture of this deficit, and the disillusionment that fuels it!!

I hope that helps some🙂
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If you are a girl, I want to buy you dinner.
 
I dislike when people use he/she or insist that a group of mixed gender must be referred to as "guys and girls." I understand the "feminist" thought behind this--both genders must be recognized equally. However, I believe this goes back to the Latin, (I'm not sure about the Germanic roots), in which a question or mixing of gender would either use a genderless ending (rare) or automatically convert to a male suffix (common). I.e. "guys" = multiple men or a group of men and women in the Latin (and in English, except when talking to politically correct people).

At least, that's what I remember from my two years of Middle-School Latin.
 
FlowRate said:
I dislike when people use he/she or insist that a group of mixed gender must be referred to as "guys and girls." I understand the "feminist" thought behind this--both genders must be recognized equally. However, I believe this goes back to the Latin, (I'm not sure about the Germanic roots), in which a question or mixing of gender would either use a genderless ending (rare) or automatically convert to a male suffix (common). I.e. "guys" = multiple men or a group of men and women in the Latin (and in English, except when talking to politically correct people).

At least, that's what I remember from my two years of Middle-School Latin.
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hahahaaha flowrate. ydm
 
surftheiop said:
Seeing as we are on the topic, what do you all think about using "They" for a third person neutered pronoun?

Ie. "I talked to my friend yesterday and they said <blank>."

I had a linguistics professor who felt its completely acceptable to use "they" in that manner. She has been in linguistics for several decades and seems to think that its about time for the old-school English grammar people to stop complaining about it.
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I hate it -- but it was good enough for Jane Austen.

The whining about avoiding the third-person singular is hilarious. Someone needs to get her underwear unknotted.
 
bleargh said:
i don't think this "ideal" is real (teehee)
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I have been lurking around this board for some time and there are a good number of practicing docs who appear to defy this statement.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
Well, I know what they want, but the problem comes when one questions the nature of one's motives and find that they're not characteristic of the ideal. This may be fine if one is content with that fact, but personally, I find it uncomfortable. I think that once I've gotten a hold of this knowledge, to then go through with writing a PS that "adcoms want" but is not reflective of my pure intentions does ME a disservice, and arguably does my future patients a disservice as well.
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I interpreted this to mean "I'm in it for the money but I know that adcoms don't want to hear that but I'm also honest enough that I don't want to lie & tell them what they want to hear. Being in it for the money also does a disservice to those who would be my patients."

Is that what you mean?

Seriously, tell us what you have done to test your interest in medicine as a career. If you entertained the possibility of another career, you can mention how you tested that interest and why you found it lacking. The focus should be on adulthood (18 and older) although considerations at ages 16/17 might be legit.
 
LizzyM said:
Seriously, tell us what you have done to test your interest in medicine as a career. If you entertained the possibility of another career, you can mention how you tested that interest and why you found it lacking. The focus should be on adulthood (18 and older) although considerations at ages 16/17 might be legit.
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I have done ~2 years of hospital volunteering. 1 research publication. No shadowing, except for occasionally tagging along on rounds, which I don't know counts. I'm 21 years old. I have not seriously considered another career besides medicine, though I have casually entertained many.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
I have done ~2 years of hospital volunteering. 1 research publication. No shadowing, except for occasionally tagging along on rounds, which I don't know counts. I'm 21 years old. I have not seriously considered another career besides medicine, though I have casually entertained many.
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Tagging around on rounds counts. Now go write that into your PS.
 
LizzyM said:
Tagging around on rounds counts. Now go write that into your PS.
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I think you're missing the point. It's not that I don't know how to frame a personal statement or narrative to please the adcoms and get me in. I can do that just fine. But I'd only be cheating myself in the long run. I want to live consciously and honestly, not go through the motions.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
I think you're missing the point. It's not that I don't know how to frame a personal statement or narrative to please the adcoms and get me in. I can do that just fine. But I'd only be cheating myself in the long run. I want to live consciously and honestly, not go through the motions.
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Sorry, punked, but you are the one missing the point. LizzyM intends to lecture you on the appropriate way to write your PS. You are to accept her generous help without further comment. Period. What's that, you say? You aren't lookng for help with your PS? Keep it to yourself. LizzyM hath spoken.

Come on. Get it right.
 
LizzyM said:
Do what you want. Good night.
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How can you be so flippant? Especially as a school administrator? Here I am, asking for your guidance on how to be the best candidate possible not just on paper, but in my whole person, and you just write me off.

If even school administrators are not willing to take the time or effort to help cultivate prospective students into realizing pure sentiments and motivations, then I think there's something seriously broken with the system. Either that or you are a special case.
 
You can only be so well educated about any "complex" career without having actually done that career. Medicine is nice in that aspect (at least in my admittedly uninformed eyes, in the sense that I haven't actually been a doctor) in that there are numerous very different routes you can pursue in the end. From pathology to pediatric primary care, you've got a pretty broad spectrum.
 
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