To all DO anesthesiologists who are AOA board certified

[Spartyon]

Hello everyone I am a DO student strongly considering anesthesiology and would like to know specifically the experiences of anesthesiologists out there who are AOA board certified through an osteopathic anesthesiology residency. I know the differences between the ABA vs AOCA and how the ABA is the "gold standard" for training but a few of the AOA programs look promising based on my research. My main concern is when I graduate residency from a DO program what struggles might I face in the job market with recognition and ability to land a position in a hospital/group. I want to attempt both allopathic and osteopathic residency matches. Any advice, tips, experiences, or knowledge about DO anesthesiologists in the job market would be of great help. Thank you all and happy new years.

P.S. I've tried to search this topic and did not find many posts so any links with this information would be appreciated.

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[Spartyon]

bump

 

[ssmallz]

I know nothing about the osteopathic boards so take this w/a grain of salt....

I'm a DO, I did an allo residencey specifically because ABA is the gold standard. Can you get a job w/out it? Sure there are plenty of old timers out there who get jobs w/out being board certified. Will you get a good job? Unlikely. Employers who get multiple applicants will look for ways to separate out the who they want to hire and who they don't. By not being ABA bored you are already giving yourself a black mark on your resume. You might be able to make up for it if you do a fellowship but why would you want to start behind the 8 ball? Just go to a residency that allows you to sit for ABA boards

 

[PeepsLove]

I'm in a DO residency now and the graduates form our system haven't had any difficulties obtaining good jobs in good locations (last 2 are now in LA and Vegas). After speaking with a lot of attendings they have informed me that the DO residencies do a terrific job of teaching how to be a proficient provider since our case load is high (our facility each resident does about 1200 cases a year). In general we train at smaller community hospitals where turnover is key so we learn to be fast and efficient to allow the day to continue at a solid pace. We're able to run our rooms without needing to set up multiple drips and lines (unless the case deems that necessary). From what I've heard from highering practices, they like DO residents because they can handle thier own and they don't slow anybody down with turnover. That being said, we don't get a lot of the fancier more dramatic cases that you'll see at a large university facility, but then again, you'll have to work a facility like that post-grad to see those cases again. I'd say if you want to do anesthesia at a facility other than at a level 1-2 trauma center DO is just fine. If you want to do transplants and larger more risky, rare procedures than MD is the way to go. Personal story, my bro is a DO trained at Case Western. His group just highered an MD from Mayo who struggles with lap chole cases. Why,she didn't see a lot of that in residency. Give her a liver transplant and she kills it. Things to consider. Either way DOs have boards too and its not like those count for nothing. Board certified is board certified.

 

[btbam]

I find it hard to believe that someone who "kills" liver transplants struggles with running a lap chole. What could be difficult about that case? Abdominal insufflation?

 

[Idiopathic]

Hello everyone I am a DO student strongly considering anesthesiology and would like to know specifically the experiences of anesthesiologists out there who are AOA board certified through an osteopathic anesthesiology residency. I know the differences between the ABA vs AOCA and how the ABA is the "gold standard" for training but a few of the AOA programs look promising based on my research. My main concern is when I graduate residency from a DO program what struggles might I face in the job market with recognition and ability to land a position in a hospital/group. I want to attempt both allopathic and osteopathic residency matches. Any advice, tips, experiences, or knowledge about DO anesthesiologists in the job market would be of great help. Thank you all and happy new years.

P.S. I've tried to search this topic and did not find many posts so any links with this information would be appreciated.

ABA certification is preferrable. No way around it.

 

[somedumbDO]

I'm in a DO residency now and the graduates form our system haven't had any difficulties obtaining good jobs in good locations (last 2 are now in LA and Vegas). After speaking with a lot of attendings they have informed me that the DO residencies do a terrific job of teaching how to be a proficient provider since our case load is high (our facility each resident does about 1200 cases a year). In general we train at smaller community hospitals where turnover is key so we learn to be fast and efficient to allow the day to continue at a solid pace. We're able to run our rooms without needing to set up multiple drips and lines (unless the case deems that necessary). From what I've heard from highering practices, they like DO residents because they can handle thier own and they don't slow anybody down with turnover. That being said, we don't get a lot of the fancier more dramatic cases that you'll see at a large university facility, but then again, you'll have to work a facility like that post-grad to see those cases again. I'd say if you want to do anesthesia at a facility other than at a level 1-2 trauma center DO is just fine. If you want to do transplants and larger more risky, rare procedures than MD is the way to go. Personal story, my bro is a DO trained at Case Western. His group just highered an MD from Mayo who struggles with lap chole cases. Why,she didn't see a lot of that in residency. Give her a liver transplant and she kills it. Things to consider. Either way DOs have boards too and its not like those count for nothing. Board certified is board certified.

Any real residency will teach you all of that. Hello, outpatient rotation?? Right now you want to go to small communities ANYONE can find a job. You wanna bust into a desirable market w/ just the DO and no board certification IE: Chicago, NY, ect good luck. Most groups to become partner REQUIRE you to be board certified w/in 5 yrs or tough... your gone! BTW anyone that can do liver tx will not struggle at a lap chole. Your story is far fetched.

 

[leaverus]

Son, PLEASE. Any CA-1 can do a lap chole.

 

[DO Anes]

The ACGME is a much higher standard of accreditation than the AOA, which is a joke. That being said, the AOA board examination may be a better test of one's ability as an anesthesiologist than the ABA, but that is a small point. Allo/ACGME>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DO/AOA residency, especially in this competitive era.
Anyone can do those lap choles and quick turnover, especially CRNA's, AA's etc. Physician consultant anesthesiologists are expected to have done and understand the liver transplants, pedi hearts, etc. Residency is not the time to take it easy and learn to do simple cases really fast.

 

[OB1🤙]

I'd higher you. You're skills sound hire than most. I don't want my new highers doing livers or taking care of sick patients anyway, those cases are too fancy. You can turn a room over? Done. Highered.

 

[ssmallz]

I'm in a DO residency now and the graduates form our system haven't had any difficulties obtaining good jobs in good locations (last 2 are now in LA and Vegas). After speaking with a lot of attendings they have informed me that the DO residencies do a terrific job of teaching how to be a proficient provider since our case load is high (our facility each resident does about 1200 cases a year). In general we train at smaller community hospitals where turnover is key so we learn to be fast and efficient to allow the day to continue at a solid pace. We're able to run our rooms without needing to set up multiple drips and lines (unless the case deems that necessary). From what I've heard from highering practices, they like DO residents because they can handle thier own and they don't slow anybody down with turnover. That being said, we don't get a lot of the fancier more dramatic cases that you'll see at a large university facility, but then again, you'll have to work a facility like that post-grad to see those cases again. I'd say if you want to do anesthesia at a facility other than at a level 1-2 trauma center DO is just fine. If you want to do transplants and larger more risky, rare procedures than MD is the way to go. Personal story, my bro is a DO trained at Case Western. His group just highered an MD from Mayo who struggles with lap chole cases. Why,she didn't see a lot of that in residency. Give her a liver transplant and she kills it. Things to consider. Either way DOs have boards too and its not like those count for nothing. Board certified is board certified.

Sorry to tell you but the "skills" you are referring to (quick turnover, running your own room, no slowing down the surgeon) can be learned in a week if you can't figure them out as a resident. Doing a liver tx or other difficult case? That takes years to learn........I work in a smaller community hospital and we get sick pts so you better know how to take care of em. The fact that DO residencey's are at "smaller community hosptials" should tell you everything you need to know about them. Don't apply, go to a level 1 trauma center that sees a ton of path. It's better to do cases as a resident that you will never do as an attending than to be an attending and see a case you've never seen as a resident.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I'd higher you. You're skills sound hire than most. I don't want my new highers doing livers or taking care of sick patients anyway, those cases are too fancy. You can turn a room over? Done. Highered.

 

[FutureDoc79]

I am a DO, attended a DO residency, am certified by the AOCA/AOA. I am currently a partner in the group where I trained and have worked here since completion of residency (2.5 yrs) Graduates from our program have not had issues with finding employment/partnership tracks in California, Florida, New York and of course, here in Michigan...those are off the top of my head. For a period of 15 months, the hospital chose to contract a large national anesthesia management company to "manage" our group and we became employees. During this time I served as the site medical director and had many interactions with other regional/national medical directors all ABA certified. Never once did my board certification even get mentioned, nor did I feel inferior in any way. As of the 1st, we have our contract back and are a private group, but I did learn quite a bit while in that role.
There is some truth in what the previous poster had said. Those that are well trained in the complicated cases can struggle in the "bread and butter" world...we have seen it here. We are a level 2 trauma center in a community hospital setting. Our residents work hard and get a ton of experience. Sure we have our weaknesses, but every training program does.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I am a DO, attended a DO residency, am certified by the AOCA/AOA. I am currently a partner in the group where I trained and have worked here since completion of residency (2.5 yrs) Graduates from our program have not had issues with finding employment/partnership tracks in California, Florida, New York and of course, here in Michigan...those are off the top of my head. For a period of 15 months, the hospital chose to contract a large national anesthesia management company to "manage" our group and we became employees. During this time I served as the site medical director and had many interactions with other regional/national medical directors all ABA certified. Never once did my board certification even get mentioned, nor did I feel inferior in any way. As of the 1st, we have our contract back and are a private group, but I did learn quite a bit while in that role.
There is some truth in what the previous poster had said. Those that are well trained in the complicated cases can struggle in the "bread and butter" world...we have seen it here. We are a level 2 trauma center in a community hospital setting. Our residents work hard and get a ton of experience. Sure we have our weaknesses, but every training program does.

Do you have DO residents? Are you a DO training site? How many DO Residents graduate every year from DO Residencies?

An important point to remember is the Job market is tightening once again. Just because you did well in life doesn't mean the newly minted CA-1 DO in a DO residency will have the same opportunities.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I have seen a handful of hospitals that are almost all DO's and the anesthesia group is similar. I think these types of hospitals are exceedingly rare.
My hunch is that you will not have nearly the same opportunities as you would have as an allopathic residency grad. The poster discussing the lap chole advantage of DO residencies has a pretty weak argument in my opinion. They may have a slight advantage on the bread and butter cases for the first couple of weeks if the allopathic grad came from an inefficient program that does not adequately prepare the resident for the fast pace of the real world. That will be resolved within a couple weeks, if not sooner. The deficits that exist because the resident has never taken care of the really sick patient will never be recoverable.

Blade's point above is also valid. Everyone did well in the job market for several years. Only now are we seeing the market tighten up. I can tell you that most groups in my area would not consider AOA and ABA equivalent and will only hire ABA eligible or certified candidates. I have seen one case where an older practitioner that is AOA certified was retained because he was a known entity. He will not be joined by others with similar credentials, no matter how well they can take care of ASA I & II lap choles.

 

[drccw]

ABA board certification will allow you to work in many many more hospitals than AOA certification. Plain and simple. When the time comes to look for a job, you want to be able to fish in as big a pond as possible.

My group of 30 anesthesiologists has 1 DO in it. He trained in an ABA/ACGME program

drccw

 

[inmyslumber]

The only folks I know who went for AOA boards were those DOs who could not get ABA certified. Osteo boards seem to be less demanding. *understatement*

If you think you can pass the ABA Boards GO FOR IT! Less explaining to future employers who may care.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

The only folks I know who went for AOA boards were those DOs who could not get ABA certified. Osteo boards seem to be less demanding. *understatement*

If you think you can pass the ABA Boards GO FOR IT! Less explaining to future employers who may care.

So you can take the AOA boards if you can't get through the ABA? That seems crazy to me.

It is impossible to take the ABA boards unless you finished an ACGME residency.

 

[FutureDoc79]

I do have DO residents, we have 2 spots per year. From reading the replies to this thread it seems as though there is quite a bit of misinformation out there.
1. One can not choose which set of certifying exams to take. If you complete an AOA residency, you can only be certified by the AOBA (American Osteopathic Board of Anesthesia) and the AOA. If you complete an ACGME program, you take the ABA boards. Period.
2. Although I have never taken the ABA exam, to automatically assume that it is more challenging is somewhat troubling. We have yearly inservice exams, just as ACGME. We become eligible to take the written exam after our CA2 year, as I did. The oral exam is taken about a year later and is structured completely different than the ABA exam. Our exam consists of 10 exam stations with 2 examiners each. There is a paragraph describing the case and a set of stem questions to follow. I believe each station is 2 minutes for reading/collecting your thoughts and 10 minutes to answer the questions given by the examiners. During this time, they give no feedback and only take notes on your answers. We as DO's also have a clinical portion taken about 1 year after the oral exam. A series of detailed original case studies are submitted to the board, after they approve them, an examiner is sent to your hospital to observe you do both a regional and general anesthetic along with reviewing about 30 of your charts.....these must be cases you performed yourself, not supervising a CRNA. Following this you get a letter in the mail a few weeks later saying you are certified. I am not saying either is more challenging, but to assume the DO exam is easy is not acceptable either.
3. Blade, I have been a member of this site for 10 years, since I started med school. I have never really actively participated in discussions, but I have learned a great deal from you and this forum. You are correct, my residents starting out this year will face a different market in a few years compared to when I finished only 2.5 years ago. I honestly do not know if they will be at a disadvantage, but we will continue to work hard and train them the best we can.
4. DO residencies as a whole were dealt a huge blow by the ACGME recently. There is now a rule that beginning in 2014, ACGME fellowships are limited to graduates of ACGME residencies only. This rule was intended to decrease the influx of FMGs into fellowships, but also excludes DOs. I know that the AOA is working with ACGME to work out a compromise. However, I feel for my residents who now may be limited as a result of going AOA.
That's all I have for now.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

1. One can not choose which set of certifying exams to take. If you complete an AOA residency, you can only be certified by the AOBA (American Osteopathic Board of Anesthesia) and the AOA. If you complete an ACGME program, you take the ABA boards. Period.

Although I don't have a source document to verify this statement, this is my understanding as well.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Board certified is board certified.

Disagree 100%. With AOA certification I don't think you can work as faculty at an ACGME program (may not be important to you). In addition, as recently as several years ago, I was aware of hospital systems that would not credential you if you trained in any AOA program. As a DO, I have encountered what I felt was very subtle job discrimination because I was a DO (and I trained at an ACGME program) - and different types of discrimination (fair or not) exist everywhere in society. As Blade pointed out, in today's market every advantage helps when it comes down to it. You may not have a problem getting a "bread and butter" job at a community hospital but then again I know guys at practices in the boondocks that wouldn't even look at an AOA trained physician. Just because cases are in a community setting doesn't mean that the patients aren't sick as stink sometimes.

I don't buy the whole thing about room turnover either. Unless you sit your own cases you don't turn your room over. Lots of guys take a bit to adapt to staffing 4 rooms at a time (sometimes more). Sometimes you hit the ground running but everyone needs time to adjust a bit and I think ti is a natural progression. Some of the cases in residency you may see very rarely thereafter in your career so it helps to know what to do based on your own experience.

BTW thanks to the AOA trained guys who are commenting on this thread. Many DO's are on this forum (though many lurk) and this is a good discussion for all. Although my view is very biased I for one appreciate you coming here to answer these sort of questions since there is a dearth of information on this forum about AOA training.

 

[inmyslumber]

So you can take the AOA boards if you can't get through the ABA? That seems crazy to me.

It is impossible to take the ABA boards unless you finished an ACGME residency.

I was unclear in my post. The DOs that I refer to completed ACGME residency then took ABA Boards. After not passing ABA Boards, they then registered for AOA Boards.

 

[DO Anes]

If you complete an ACGME program, you take the ABA boards. Period.
2. Although I have never taken the ABA exam, to automatically assume that it is more challenging is somewhat troubling. I honestly do not know if they will be at a disadvantage, but we will continue to work hard and train them the best we can.

I have know several DO's who completed an ACGME anesthesiology residency and could not pass the ABA exams. They then sat for and passed (easily) the AOA exams. It is just a matter of obtaining approval of the program from the AOA.
The AOA exam is definitely less challenging and subject to greater variability. As far as opportunities, I am going to hire the grad of a a large ACGME program who is ABA certified long before the grad of an AOA program who is AOA certified. Come on, 2 residents per year in BFE community medical center vs the typical ACGME of 12 per year in a major university teaching hospital? No contest.
AOA residency may be an option for those who absolutely can't go ACGME, but to believe there is any sort of equivalence or that it is not a substantial disadvantage is whistling past the grave yard. Given the changes in ACGME requirements for fellowship and intennship, I suspect AOA residency in anesthesiology (and most other fields) is on its way to extinction.

 

[Idiopathic]

I'd higher you. You're skills sound hire than most. I don't want my new highers doing livers or taking care of sick patients anyway, those cases are too fancy. You can turn a room over? Done. Highered.

 

[Per4mer8]

Haha. The Heath Ledger Joker clap gif is better though.

 

[FutureDoc79]

I have know several DO's who completed an ACGME anesthesiology residency and could not pass the ABA exams. They then sat for and passed (easily) the AOA exams. It is just a matter of obtaining approval of the program from the AOA.
The AOA exam is definitely less challenging and subject to greater variability. As far as opportunities, I am going to hire the grad of a a large ACGME program who is ABA certified long before the grad of an AOA program who is AOA certified. Come on, 2 residents per year in BFE community medical center vs the typical ACGME of 12 per year in a major university teaching hospital? No contest.
AOA residency may be an option for those who absolutely can't go ACGME, but to believe there is any sort of equivalence or that it is not a substantial disadvantage is whistling past the grave yard. Given the changes in ACGME requirements for fellowship and intennship, I suspect AOA residency in anesthesiology (and most other fields) is on its way to extinction.

We are not a BFE community medical center...we are a level 2 trauma center sitting in the middle of one of the one of the economically depressed areas of the country. We see a great variety of pathology. Our program is small in size, but our residents do get great hands on training.. Just this past holiday weekend my resident and I did a gsw to belly, gsw to chest, 18yo with acute head bleed, and 55 yo vasculopath asa4 with acute arterial thrombus of LE who waited to long to come to hospital and was in renal failure, chf, and had acute ekg changes. I mention this only to make the point that my residents are not sitting there doing lap choles and knee scopes all day. During their cardiac anesthesia rotation, which is out of house, they do between 50-60 hearts, which I know is equal to, if not more than their ACGME counterparts 30 miles away in Detroit. One of last years graduates is doing a cardiothoracic fellowship at Loyola this year.
Whatever your stance is about AOA certification, you may be doing your group and hospital a disservice by overlooking them for employment. Just because they went to a large ACGME program does not mean they are competent and a top tier doc. Just as going AOA doesn't mean they are subpar physicians. Maybe it's because I only applied for jobs in Michigan for family reasons, but I have never experienced any of this bias that seems to exist elsewhere

 

[BobBarker]

DO residency graduates can be faculty at ACGME programs. We have at least two at our program.

 

[DO Anes]

...we are a level 2 trauma center Our program is small in size, but our residents do get great hands on training.. During their cardiac anesthesia rotation, which is out of house,

Like I said, no contest. You could probably take someone off the street and train them to administer anesthesia, given enough hands on experience. That does not make a consultant anesthesiologist.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

DO residency graduates can be faculty at ACGME programs. We have at least two at our program.

Interesting, I stand corrected although I was not 100% sure of this. I don't think you can be PD though (which doubtful matters to much anyone).

 

[Arch Guillotti]

1. One can not choose which set of certifying exams to take. If you complete an AOA residency, you can only be certified by the AOBA (American Osteopathic Board of Anesthesia) and the AOA. If you complete an ACGME program, you take the ABA boards. Period.

I have know several DO's who completed an ACGME anesthesiology residency and could not pass the ABA exams. They then sat for and passed (easily) the AOA exams. It is just a matter of obtaining approval of the program from the AOA.

I must be missing something because these 2 statements seem at odds with each other.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

From the AOCA website:

Rules and Regulations - Article VII - Requirements for Certification

Viewing this information indicates acceptance of the Requirements for Certification Disclaimer

Section 1.
The minimum requirements to be eligible to receive certification from the AOA through the American Osteopathic Board of Anesthesiology are as follows:

A. The applicant must be a graduate of an AOA accredited college of osteopathic medicine.

B. The applicant must be licensed to practice in the state or territory where the practice is conducted.

C. The applicant must be able to show evidence of conformity to the standards set forth in the Code of Ethics of the American Osteopathic Association.

D. General certification is ten (10) year time-limited.

E. The applicant must have been a member in good standing of the American Osteopathic Association or the Canadian Osteopathic Association for the two (2) years immediately prior to the date of certification.

F. The applicant must have satisfactory completed an internship of at least one (1) year in a hospital approved for intern training by the American Osteopathic Association.

G.
1. If residency training was completed after July 1, 1986, the applicant must have satisfactorily completed a minimum of three (3) years of an AOA-approved formal training program in anesthesiology after the required AOA-approved internship. (B-10/95)

2. If residency training was completed prior to July 1, 1986, the applicant must have satisfactorily completed a minimum of two (2) years of AOA-approved formal training in anesthesiology after the required AOA-approved internship. In addition, the applicant must have two (2) years of recognized specialty practice in lieu of the third year of formal training. (B-10/95)

3. Training is not considered complete until al required documentation is teceived by and approved by the AOCA/COPT and the AOBA.

H. It shall be the policy of the Board to accept subspecialty training in anesthesiology taken in hospitals or institutions other than those approved for such training by the American Osteopathic Association as meeting the requirements of formal training subsequent to internship, providing at least two (2) years of formal training in anesthesiology has been taken in a hospital approved for such training by the American Osteopathic Association, and the balance of the training program has been approved by the the Committee on Postdoctoral Training of the American Osteopathic College of Anesthesiologists and the American Osteopathic Association. (B 3/87)

I. Subsequent to the completion of the required minimum of three (3) years of formal training, and prior to April first of the year in which the application is submitted, the applicant for the clinical examination shall have practiced as a specialist in anesthesiology. (B 3/87)

J. Following satisfactory compliance with the prescribed requirements for examination, the applicant is required to pass appropriate examinations planned to evaluate an understanding of the scientific bases of the problems involved in anesthesiology, familiarity with the current advances in anesthesiology, possession of sound judgment and a high degree of skill in diagnostic and therapeutic procedures involved in the practice of anesthesiology.

1) Written, oral and clinical examinations are conducted and required in the case of each applicant.

2) The members of this Board shall review, if not perform, the grading of each written and oral examination. The conduct of the clinical examination shall be delegated to an osteopathic physician certified in anesthesiology by the American Osteopathic Association.

3) A full description of the method of conducting the examination is formulated in this Board's Regulations and Requirements, and provision for reexamination is made.

4) Applicants desiring examination for certification are required to file an application which shall set forth the applicant's qualifications for examination as stated in paragraphs A. through G. in Section 1. of this article. The procedure for filing applications is set forth in the Regulations and Requirements.

 

[DO Anes]

The approval of an ACGME residency by the AOA is fairly simple and routinely done, under a process similar to the approval of internships under Resolution 42. This is usually only sought after when the candidate cannot pass the ABA and would like to sit for the AOBA or, much more rarely, when someone desires to be AOBA certified in order to become an AOA Dean or DME (I personally know of only one such individual in the US).

 

[FutureDoc79]

I stand corrected, I was not aware that the AOA would do this for a physician that could not pass the ABA. That is a horrible decision by the AOA and only hurts the DO profession. When preparing for exams, I have followed the advice of many on these boards, read the same books, followed some of the suggested study regimens posted here in the last 5 years....I feel I would have been just as prepared as any ACGME resident for the ABA exam, and have the same chance at passing. Just curious, can an AOA trained doc petition the ABA to enter the certification process??

 

[Gern Blansten]

The approval of an ACGME residency by the AOA is fairly simple and routinely done, under a process similar to the approval of internships under Resolution 42. This is usually only sought after when the candidate cannot pass the ABA and would like to sit for the AOBA or, much more rarely, when someone desires to be AOBA certified in order to become an AOA Dean or DME (I personally know of only one such individual in the US).

I know of one such individual who is a DO who trained at an ACGME residency and did a pain fellowship at a prestigious ACGME program. After 3 tries at the ABA exam, he switched over to the AOA exam and is now certified through for anesthesiology and pain. He is actually a very bright individual and I would trust him to care for me or my family. He just couldn't get past the written exam process. I suspect he did not struggle with the AOA since he passed his first try and went on to pass the orals and the pain exam as well on the first try.
Like I said, outstanding physician, but really struggled with the ABA process. Does not seem to have limited him as he has an active practice in pain and seems to be doing well.

 

[DO Anes]

I stand corrected, I was not aware that the AOA would do this for a physician that could not pass the ABA. That is a horrible decision by the AOA and only hurts the DO profession. When preparing for exams, I have followed the advice of many on these boards, read the same books, followed some of the suggested study regimens posted here in the last 5 years....I feel I would have been just as prepared as any ACGME resident for the ABA exam, and have the same chance at passing. Just curious, can an AOA trained doc petition the ABA to enter the certification process??

Nope. The ABA and ACGME accreditation process are hand-in-glove. You cannot become ABA eligible with completing an ACGME accredited residency. This accreditation is a major undertaking consuming tens of thousands dollars and man-hours to complete and maintain. Certain IMG's with outstanding records of research, external funding and publication are occasionally allowed to become ABA eligible only after a rigorous application/review process and only after working for 4 years as faculty in an ACGME-accredited program judged capable of mentoring such individuals.
The difference in residency accreditation standards between the ACGME and AOA is so vast, it is practically an apples to oranges comparison. The exam is just one of the evaluation tools of a prospective consultant anesthesiologist; milestones during training are others and this system is only becoming more complicated.
Given enough effort, anyone can probably pass any exam (LECOM's home-study proves that), but an exam does not a consultant (or physician) make.

 

[DO Anes]

After 3 tries at the ABA exam, he switched over to the AOA exam and is now certified through for anesthesiology and pain. He just couldn't get past the written exam process. I suspect he did not struggle with the AOA since he passed his first try and went on to pass the orals and the pain exam as well on the first try.

That is a practice of anesthesiology issue. 90+% of the time everything is fine, happy and sunny and almost anyone looks like a competent physician. That other small percentage of the time is why we have those huge salaries. The ABA exams are looking at the detailed knowledge found in that small, seldom used percentage. I would not be so quick to have an anesthetic administered to my family by someone who could not get past even the written part of the exam.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I wasn't overly impressed by the AOA programs I looked into, honestly.

Glad I did the ACGME route.

 

[kazuma]

OP, I'd shoot for ACGME if you have the stats to make it happen. If AOCA is your only option, I'd strongly consider Grandview in Dayton, OH. It's a good program, they see a lot of sick pt's (obviously no transplants), their residents score the highest on the the ITE's and their grads land solid jobs. Out of the 4 DO programs I rotated at, it was the one that seemed to be the closest to the ACGME program I rotated at.

Do you have DO residents? Are you a DO training site? How many DO Residents graduate every year from DO Residencies?

An important point to remember is the Job market is tightening once again. Just because you did well in life doesn't mean the newly minted CA-1 DO in a DO residency will have the same opportunities.

IIRC there are ~11 DO residencies graduating roughly ~30-33 anesthesiologists per year.

That is a practice of anesthesiology issue. 90+% of the time everything is fine, happy and sunny and almost anyone looks like a competent physician. That other small percentage of the time is why we have those huge salaries. The ABA exams are looking at the detailed knowledge found in that small, seldom used percentage. I would not be so quick to have an anesthetic administered to my family by someone who could not get past even the written part of the exam.

How are the independent nurses going to deal with the 10%? 😱 I have had several of my family members including my wife undergo an anesthetic performed by independent nurses, fortunately only for routine cases.

 

[bluewater]

To the OP-- one other thing to consider is the geographic region in which you plan to practice. I am a DO with ACGME training (residency and fellowship) and ABA certification. The hospital in which I practice does not recognize AOA certification. I am in the southeast at a moderate sized facility. Hospital by-laws will affect where you can and cannot practice. This is not uncommon.

 

[Spartyon]

I appreciate everyones insight about this topic. Based on what I have seen in this post I will apply to as many allopathic programs as possible and see what happens. If AOA certification is not as well recognized especially in the tightening job market it may not be the best option since my stats are par with anesthesia programs based on charting the outcomes in the match. I plan to setup rotations for fourth year soon and may just rotate at the different places that I may apply to. Keep the opinions and info coming along with personal experiences about the job market in anesthesiology. Thanks.

 

[IlDestriero]

Haha. The Heath Ledger Joker clap gif is better though.

I like it as well because as it's looped he's subtly shaking his head.

 

[PeepsLove]

Any real residency will teach you all of that. Hello, outpatient rotation?? Right now you want to go to small communities ANYONE can find a job. You wanna bust into a desirable market w/ just the DO and no board certification IE: Chicago, NY, ect good luck. Most groups to become partner REQUIRE you to be board certified w/in 5 yrs or tough... your gone! BTW anyone that can do liver tx will not struggle at a lap chole. Your story is far fetched.

believe it or not that story is true (she also makes the call schedule hell since the backup needs to come in frequently to help). Now that could reflect her inability as a provider or the residency that she went to but either way that was an example and by no means the norm. Its is similar to other providers that I know who aren't comfortable with other items that seem basic merely becuase they haven't done enough of them to be confident. That doesn't mean that they can't handle it, it just means that over they need more of the those cases. Hopefully residents will realize their short comings before they graduate so that they can make weaknesses stronger.

To the OP, if you plan on the MD match as your primary then don't take DO rotations from other student wh genuinely want to explore the DO route. Good luck to you.

 

[Spandex]

Hasn't Grandview's program been without a residency director for years?

For the record. I'm AOA anesthesia trained and doing an ACGME fellowship. Just starting to look for jobs, so we'll see how it goes. However, from what I can tell, it will be more difficult than if I were ABA board eligible. Here's to hoping my fellowship gives me some leeway...

 

[kazuma]

Hasn't Grandview's program been without a residency director for years?

For the record. I'm AOA anesthesia trained and doing an ACGME fellowship. Just starting to look for jobs, so we'll see how it goes. However, from what I can tell, it will be more difficult than if I were ABA board eligible. Here's to hoping my fellowship gives me some leeway...

That's great you were able to land an ACGME fellowship, best of luck with the job search. It looks like ACGME fellowships will no longer be an option for AOA trained grads after 7/2015. Something the OP may want to consider.

Grandview has had a PD, but he's an MD. He's seemed like a good PD and the residents seemed happy with him. However, IIRC AOCA requires that the PD is a DO. I've heard that they have an alumni that is going to take over as PD in the near future.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

To the OP-- one other thing to consider is the geographic region in which you plan to practice. I am a DO with ACGME training (residency and fellowship) and ABA certification. The hospital in which I practice does not recognize AOA certification. I am in the southeast at a moderate sized facility. Hospital by-laws will affect where you can and cannot practice. This is not uncommon.

Yeah that's a catch that some folks may not realize. Training and board certification don't mean a thing when they are not recognized.

 

[Spartyon]

Bump

 

[TeamZissou]

Anyone on here match in the AOA match this year?

 

[Navyanesdoc]

I thought it was crazy when the AOA evaluator came to the OR to watch my colleague to ensure he had his eye protection on, wore gloves, and didnt reuse needles...

 

[hawthorne]

Now that the new changes have been announced I was wondering about new opinions on this chat about AOA anesthesia residency inferiority. If all of them will be ACGME accredited how will this change things? They will have to meet the same numbers and will be eligible to take the same board exams? Will that change the job market for those graduating from the osteo residencies? I am especially curious to here from futuredoc since I live in MI and my husband would really like to stay here so I have considered your program alot. Thanks everyone!

I do have DO residents, we have 2 spots per year. From reading the replies to this thread it seems as though there is quite a bit of misinformation out there.
1. One can not choose which set of certifying exams to take. If you complete an AOA residency, you can only be certified by the AOBA (American Osteopathic Board of Anesthesia) and the AOA. If you complete an ACGME program, you take the ABA boards. Period.
2. Although I have never taken the ABA exam, to automatically assume that it is more challenging is somewhat troubling. We have yearly inservice exams, just as ACGME. We become eligible to take the written exam after our CA2 year, as I did. The oral exam is taken about a year later and is structured completely different than the ABA exam. Our exam consists of 10 exam stations with 2 examiners each. There is a paragraph describing the case and a set of stem questions to follow. I believe each station is 2 minutes for reading/collecting your thoughts and 10 minutes to answer the questions given by the examiners. During this time, they give no feedback and only take notes on your answers. We as DO's also have a clinical portion taken about 1 year after the oral exam. A series of detailed original case studies are submitted to the board, after they approve them, an examiner is sent to your hospital to observe you do both a regional and general anesthetic along with reviewing about 30 of your charts.....these must be cases you performed yourself, not supervising a CRNA. Following this you get a letter in the mail a few weeks later saying you are certified. I am not saying either is more challenging, but to assume the DO exam is easy is not acceptable either.
3. Blade, I have been a member of this site for 10 years, since I started med school. I have never really actively participated in discussions, but I have learned a great deal from you and this forum. You are correct, my residents starting out this year will face a different market in a few years compared to when I finished only 2.5 years ago. I honestly do not know if they will be at a disadvantage, but we will continue to work hard and train them the best we can.
4. DO residencies as a whole were dealt a huge blow by the ACGME recently. There is now a rule that beginning in 2014, ACGME fellowships are limited to graduates of ACGME residencies only. This rule was intended to decrease the influx of FMGs into fellowships, but also excludes DOs. I know that the AOA is working with ACGME to work out a compromise. However, I feel for my residents who now may be limited as a result of going AOA.
That's all I have for now.

 

[hawthorne]

Any new thoughts......???