To med students thinking this is a dying field

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jcradonc

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I went to a meeting yesterday which was attended by a retired Rad Onc (~ 80 years old). He entered the field in the early 1960s and was told, "You are wasting your time. Chemo will replace radiation in five years."

Now, nearly half a century later . . . radiation is ever relevant but we are still hearing about the "magic bullet."
 
I have been hearing attendings mention this, but it now appears there is data:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/824536

So glad to be entering such a progressive and living field :highfive:

I honestly think that those attendings are just quite jealous of our field and they would've tried to get into radonc if they could go back.

I have heard from medical oncologists, neurosurgeons, general and thoracic surgeons that they would've gone into radonc if they could go back.
 
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total non sequitor but didn't antoni van leeuwenhoek invent the microscope? glad to see he's alive and kicking as well after all these years lol
 
AMAROS is a good study, and I foresee it's findings being incorporated into practice (once it's published).
 
I have my doubts. In the community, have you guys seen the ACOSOG Z-0011 results incorporated much?

Big time. Not only is Z11 heavily quoted, but at times it is used to inappropriately justify SLNB for mastectomy or after neo-adjuvant chemotherapy.

However, in patients who have one positive SLN, no breast surgeon is aggressively pushing for ALND anymore. With two positive SLNs, then the comfort level is lower and ALND is not out of the question.

In patients with 1-2 SLNs and no ALND, we generally treat with high tangents (just like the did in Z11, although it was against protocol guidelines).
 
Big time. Not only is Z11 heavily quoted, but at times it is used to inappropriately justify SLNB for mastectomy or after neo-adjuvant chemotherapy.

I guess it is specific to the community. In one area where I travel to, a local surgeon applied Z0011 to a patient presenting with palpable LAD. In the other, we are not seeing a lot of uptake of it.
 
Yes where I practice Z-11 is the way. AMAROS study methods show the way RT needs to be constructed to successfully make up for no ALND.
 
Re: GFunk's comment

Only study I've seen about treatment fields and QA on Z11 was the one recently presented in abstract form by Reshma Jagsi, et al. They only were able to get RT records on a subset of the patients, and even then, if was inconclusive. I know many think that the rad oncs treated with high tangents (if it were me, I probably wouldve in that study), but unsure if there's data to justify that they did. Unless you found something I haven't?
 
Re: GFunk's comment

Only study I've seen about treatment fields and QA on Z11 was the one recently presented in abstract form by Reshma Jagsi, et al. They only were able to get RT records on a subset of the patients, and even then, if was inconclusive. I know many think that the rad oncs treated with high tangents (if it were me, I probably wouldve in that study), but unsure if there's data to justify that they did. Unless you found something I haven't?

Our institution enrolled for Z11. There was no radiation quality control on that trial. The rad oncs here who treated on Z11 have since left the institution. The rad oncs used high tangents. One even sometimes used 3 fields to cover supraclav which was expressly forbidden by the protocol.

And I do see Z11 being misapplied. One positive sentinel LN in a simple mastectomy+SLND of a 40 year old pT2N1(sn) triple negative :eek:. Surgeons do not want XRT because of fears of lymphedema and unacceptable cosmetic outcome given the immediate reconstruction. Justify with Z11 and B04 :scared::wideyed:.
 
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I went to a meeting yesterday which was attended by a retired Rad Onc (~ 80 years old). He entered the field in the early 1960s and was told, "You are wasting your time. Chemo will replace radiation in five years."

Now, nearly half a century later . . . radiation is ever relevant but we are still hearing about the "magic bullet."
The point isn't that chemotherapy didn't replace radiation therapy. The bigger point here is that SOMETHING eventually will, whether it'll be 10, 20, or 30 years... we don't know. However, when that something does come, it won't be in the hands of rad onc. If it is a totally new treatment modality that isn't radiation or surgical in nature, then medical oncology will likely have control over it, because they control patient flow due to direct management of medical problems. This would be similar to how cardiology destroyed CT surgery at the advent of stenting. Seeing patient after patient in clinic and dealing with their many problems sucks, but it is one of the only things in medicine with perpetual intrinsic value.
 
I can see this coming in the form of systemic/targeting agents with radioisotopes. I think as radiation oncologists, we should be the ones to administer those.

I know there are some who feel this is nuc meds turf but I believe this is could be our future. I can see Med Onc trying to get into the game which some are already doing with drugs like Zevalin and Ra-223.
 
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The point isn't that chemotherapy didn't replace radiation therapy. The bigger point here is that SOMETHING eventually will, whether it'll be 10, 20, or 30 years... we don't know. However, when that something does come, it won't be in the hands of rad onc. If it is a totally new treatment modality that isn't radiation or surgical in nature, then medical oncology will likely have control over it, because they control patient flow due to direct management of medical problems. This would be similar to how cardiology destroyed CT surgery at the advent of stenting. Seeing patient after patient in clinic and dealing with their many problems sucks, but it is one of the only things in medicine with perpetual intrinsic value.

Speculation. I think xrt will always play some type of role.... with what we know and continue to discover about cancer, there is no real "magic" bullet..... it's a mirage. There are too many pathways we can't target or don't know about it and only xrt provides the local control necessary to destroy cancer, whether we are talking for cure or palliation
 
The point isn't that chemotherapy didn't replace radiation therapy. The bigger point here is that SOMETHING eventually will, whether it'll be 10, 20, or 30 years... we don't know..

I always wonder why people keep building houses in Seattle near Mount Rainier when we know it's a volcano and will eventually erupt, whether it will be 10, 20, 30, or 30 million years from now...we don't know.

Eventually all things change. But more importantly, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
 
Speculation. I think xrt will always play some type of role.... with what we know and continue to discover about cancer, there is no real "magic" bullet..... it's a mirage. There are too many pathways we can't target or don't know about it and only xrt provides the local control necessary to destroy cancer, whether we are talking for cure or palliation
Right. And we used to think that treatment for MIs was bedrest. Everything in medicine "will always play some type of role" - until it doesn't. The one thing that we can count on in medicine is that nothing is static, and things are only going to progress at a faster rate from here on out.
 
The point isn't that chemotherapy didn't replace radiation therapy. The bigger point here is that SOMETHING eventually will, whether it'll be 10, 20, or 30 years... we don't know. However, when that something does come, it won't be in the hands of rad onc. If it is a totally new treatment modality that isn't radiation or surgical in nature, then medical oncology will likely have control over it, because they control patient flow due to direct management of medical problems. This would be similar to how cardiology destroyed CT surgery at the advent of stenting. Seeing patient after patient in clinic and dealing with their many problems sucks, but it is one of the only things in medicine with perpetual intrinsic value.

I would counter the following:

1. The trend in medical procedures is towards minimally invasive and non-invasive approaches. You see signs of this all over: trauma surgeons are increasingly studying non-operative management, da Vinci robots and/or laparoscopic approaches are all the rage, a lot of biopsies are being farmed out to IR rather than being done openly, etc. Radiation Oncology is on the bleeding edge in this field. SBRT > lobectomies, SRS > craniotomies. Also, in many cancers, surgery has now been marginalized and/or eliminated (e.g. H&N, anal) and is heading that way in others (e.g. rectal).

2. Three trends in Radiation Oncology that are gaining steam are hypofractionation (shorter treatment duration), better IGRT (more accurate), and higher MUs/no flattening filter (shorter treatment length). This will make getting radiation safer and more convenient for patients.

Finally, cancer is an incredibly heterogeneous disease. Not only is each site different, but each individual cancer is markedly different (e.g. an adenocarcinoma which is not EGFR/Alk mutated has a much worse prognosis than an adenocarcinoma with such mutations). Therefore, there will never be a universal cancer cure (barring the introduction of micromachine nanobot assassins, which will put all procedure based specialties out of business). Furthermore, cancer is a micro-evolutionary process and is ever adapting to therapy. The sure fire ways to "kill cancer" to obtain a cure are to surgically remove it or irradiate the bejesus out of it. In 99% of cases where Medical Oncologists have touted a chemo or small molecule "cure" the cancers come back as more resistant. Case in point is imatinib.

We area always hearing about sexy new therapies but what are among the mainstays of the Medical Oncology arsenal?

Cisplatin (FDA approved in 1978)
Cyclophosphamide (FDA approved in 1959)
Adriamycin (FDA approved in 1960s)
Bleomycin (FDA approved in 1978)
Vincristine (FDA approved in 1963)
Paclitaxel (FDA approved in 1992)

These are not some obscure chemotherapy agents that are used in exotic diseases - they are currently the primary agents used in a variety of common malignancies (breast, lymphoma, gyn, H&N).
 
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Right. And we used to think that treatment for MIs was bedrest. Everything in medicine "will always play some type of role" - until it doesn't. The one thing that we can count on in medicine is that nothing is static, and things are only going to progress at a faster rate from here on out.

One thing I don't see posted around here is how LONG it would take for a targeted therapy to replace radiation after FDA approval. All these drugs are approved in the metastatic setting, then they would have to show value in the early stage/locally advanced setting, and only then would researchers pit the targeted therapy against radiation in an RCT. In order to show OS benefits we would be talking decades from FDA approval to publication of at least one RCT showing superiority over radiation. Multiply that by every cancer that radiation is used for and the fact that we don't know which targeted therapy will be "the one". I think it's clear that radiation will be relevant for at least our working lifetimes. Of course, this is all assuming that radiation technologies don't advance at all, and that the $100,000+ price tags of targeted therapies won't matter at all going forward...
 
Im going to try to play nice but I can't help but feel anyone that things any single modality in cancer treatment is going away entirely has a very poor understanding of biology and the delivery of cancer therapy. There are a small number of cancers cured by surgery alone. An even smaller amount of cancers cured by RT or chemo alone. Why? Because they all accomplish something very different. I don't know what else to say to that.
 
My argument is not for local control... That's where we shine, my argument is for our role in systemic disease and I believe radioimmunotherapy could be our bridge into that arena.
 
My argument is not for local control... That's where we shine, my argument is for our role in systemic disease and I believe radioimmunotherapy could be our bridge into that arena.

^This. Radioimmunotherapy is the wave of the future. XRT has the distinct advantage of Tumor Antigen dumping which provides an opportunity to exploit this. It extends way beyond PD-1, CTLA. CD28 and CD47 are other interesting targets and this is just the beginning. Abscopal effect once better understood and harnessed should revolutionize cancer therapy.
 
^This. Radioimmunotherapy is the wave of the future. XRT has the distinct advantage of Tumor Antigen dumping which provides an opportunity to exploit this. It extends way beyond PD-1, CTLA. CD28 and CD47 are other interesting targets and this is just the beginning. Abscopal effect once better understood and harnessed should revolutionize cancer therapy.

I completely agree that targeting agents conjugated with radioisotopes will have an impact in cancer care in the future. How does a resident get adequate training with this treatment approach when their residency does not seem to emphasize this or there are conflicts in who is the 'guardian' of this method?
 
I completely agree that targeting agents conjugated with radioisotopes will have an impact in cancer care in the future. How does a resident get adequate training with this treatment approach when their residency does not seem to emphasize this or there are conflicts in who is the 'guardian' of this method?

I'd love to hear a resident or attending's take on how to get training with RIT as well.
 
^This. Radioimmunotherapy is the wave of the future.

I would have to disagree. RIT suffers from the same fundamental problem as any molecule or cytotoxic given intravenously - vascular access to the tumor. As we all know, cancers tend to grow fast, outstrip their blood supply and have necrotic centers.

Also RIT is expensive and has poor evidence supporting it outside of a very narrow and specific range of malignancies.
 
I don't believe we are necessarily talking about the same techniques. No special training really necessary.
I agree that radioimmunoconjugates will fall short. I'm talking about EBRT in combo with immunomodulatory therapy (anti-CD28, CD47, gp96) to ramp up endogenous immune response. -- Ramped up Abscopal Effects
 
Im going to try to play nice but I can't help but feel anyone that things any single modality in cancer treatment is going away entirely has a very poor understanding of biology and the delivery of cancer therapy. There are a small number of cancers cured by surgery alone. An even smaller amount of cancers cured by RT or chemo alone. Why? Because they all accomplish something very different. I don't know what else to say to that.

Agreed. Cancer treatments are multidisciplinary and complementary in many cases
 
If I'm not mistaking, wasn't there a time when hypofractionation was frowned upon? I'm not saying we're at the stage right now for RIT but shouldn't we at least be the one's utilizing it. My fear is that we might miss an opportunity to diversify our role in the field. We came a long way in regards to delivering conformal radiation. Hands down SBRT or SABR now a days is great... IMRT wonderful, but as we continue to improve with local therapy, we are getting pushed out when it comes to systemic options.

I'm not claming a magic bullet, I'm just asking for a bigger gun.
 
I'm not saying we're at the stage right now for RIT but shouldn't we at least be the one's utilizing it.

I think many of us are. Xofigo (Ra-223) is a good option for painful metastatic prostate CA to bone and has the added benefit of an OS advantage similar to taxotere (despite many pts actually have received that chemo during the randomized study in the Xofigo arm). Outside of that and Zevalin/Bexxar, what else are people using?
 
There's a lot going on (pre clinical) with targeting agents utilizing radioisotopes. Back in the days, we could only use proteins like albumin, but now we can attach alpha emitters to a zinc finger! There are agents being used to make more specific PET agents (I know not therapeutic).

I get the reasoning against these things, I know RIT was something looked into back in the 1950's but wouldn't you agree that we have come a long way in terms of having better more suitable targeting agents (monoclonal antibodies, TKI's, etc)?

All it takes is one break through, such as Xofigo and these things may take off fast. All I am saying is that if we (rad onc) don't make some sort of claim now, we might miss a golden opportunity.

As I stated, I'm not claiming these hold the answers, I'm not a psychic, (if I was I would be rich gambling) but as leaders in the field of radiation therapy, we should at least have the first and final say before the Med Oncs?
 
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RadOncDoc21, I hear what you are saying but I honestly think that ship has already sailed. Unsealed sources have already been recognized as something Nuc Meds and the like can handle. The precedence is already there, I think at best we will share systemic radiation treatments. I'm not sure it matters though. It will be an exceedingly long time before these are useful outside of the metastatic setting and potentially curative. Our role in local treatment will likely always be our most effective treatment and we won't have to share that market.

As for the Abscopal effect, I see many ways of trying to enhance this without systemic radioactive drugs. But it will never work without targeted local radiation.
 
Exactly. Abscopal effects will be drastically enhanced with utilization of immunomodulatory agents not so much with systemic radioactive isotope conjugates. Targeted locoregional EBRT will be the cornerstone of all such regimens -- this is where the tumor antigen dump will come from.
 
One thing is for sure, I do love this field. It's not just all about the technology and science but how we are trained to interpret and analyze data. The future is bright to all of the med students out there wondering what to do next.
 
RadOncDoc21, I hear what you are saying but I honestly think that ship has already sailed. Unsealed sources have already been recognized as something Nuc Meds and the like can handle. The precedence is already there, I think at best we will share systemic radiation treatments. I'm not sure it matters though..

It doesn't. Rad onc owns unsealed sources in many parts of the country. I don't care much for radioactive iodine but we do it because there are no nuc meds around.

Keep in mind, pure nucs is pretty much confined to university and academic settings, and they really don't offer enough in the community to be hired by radiology practices.

Med oncs don't have the licensing, know how or properly trained personnel to administer radioisotope therapy
 
Thus far my training in radioisotopes (Iodine) has been watching a patient take a pill and going over the consent form with them. If I do what- 5 procedures, I'm done with that part of my training. Med Oncs don't have the licensing, but the know how isn't much to learn.
 
Thus far my training in radioisotopes (Iodine) has been watching a patient take a pill and going over the consent form with them. If I do what- 5 procedures, I'm done with that part of my training. Med Oncs don't have the licensing, but the know how isn't much to learn.

I might be mistaken, but isn't the Nuclear Regulatory Commission the huge barrier to medical oncologists ever being able to administer RIT?
 
No you're not mistaking, I was just commenting on the procedure... most of the handling was done by the Nuc Med tech.
 
Keep in mind, pure nucs is pretty much confined to university and academic settings, and they really don't offer enough in the community to be hired by radiology practices.

Med oncs don't have the licensing, know how or properly trained personnel to administer radioisotope therapy

Sounds like a fair point. I have virtually no private/community experience and can only speak to a couple large academic centers with a lot of Nuc Med presence. I am still skepticle that unsealed sources will end up being more than a very small part of what we do in any setting in the foreseeable future.
 
I truly believe that xrt will play a crucial role in the success of immunotherapy in the future with xrt serving as an in situ method of tumor antigen vaccination. Glad to see it being discussed here.
 
Thus far my training in radioisotopes (Iodine) has been watching a patient take a pill and going over the consent form with them. If I do what- 5 procedures, I'm done with that part of my training. Med Oncs don't have the licensing, but the know how isn't much to learn.

And giving Xofigo is pretty much a prepared syringe from the company you inject into a patient's IV. You have to check blood work before and after. Not really hard, but again, med oncs don't have physicists and RSOs checking things like that after the dose of RIT is given.

I am still skepticle that unsealed sources will end up being more than a very small part of what we do in any setting in the foreseeable future.

I am equally skeptical. RIT will be another niche tool in our arsenal, like brachy, SRS etc. The bread and butter will continue to be standard EBRT for most of us.
 
There's a lot going on (pre clinical) with targeting agents utilizing radioisotopes. Back in the days, we could only use proteins like albumin, but now we can attach alpha emitters to a zinc finger! There are agents being used to make more specific PET agents (I know not therapeutic).

I get the reasoning against these things, I know RIT was something looked into back in the 1950's but wouldn't you agree that we have come a long way in terms of having better more suitable targeting agents (monoclonal antibodies, TKI's, etc)?

All it takes is one break through, such as Xofigo and these things may take off fast. All I am saying is that if we (rad onc) don't make some sort of claim now, we might miss a golden opportunity.

As I stated, I'm not claiming these hold the answers, I'm not a psychic, (if I was I would be rich gambling) but as leaders in the field of radiation therapy, we should at least have the first and final say before the Med Oncs?

So, I am getting ready to start my rad onc residency and this topic keeps coming back to my thoughts. Excuse my naivety, but I am hoping to learn from those in the field about my late night pondering:

In regards to monoclonal antibody (mAb) use, why does rad onc not get involved in this? I understand that if an isotope is attached to the mAb it makes it more "radiation friendly" and then there is turf wars between nuc med and rad onc. But there are several other specialties (not oncology) out there that prescribe mAbs w/o conjugates for treatment? Is there some special certification that you need to get to administer these? It is not technically chemotherapy, it is a biologic. Also, even if it did not have an isotope attached, but rather had a synergistic effect w/ radiation during treatment (i.e pharmacodynamics coincides w/ XRT), why could radonc not handle this? Is the field not wanting to manage "mild-moderate" toxicities that are seen with the majority of biologics? I ask this, because I have a background in cancer research and I have been exposed to too many med oncs that prescribe the hottest new mAb to a patient and don't have a freaking clue what it is actually targeting! So, as a newcomer into the field, what is the hold up? Other specialties prescribe mAbs, why not us, after all we are ONCOLOGIST. Yes, these are expensive, but they are getting pumped out from pharma like crazy b/c you actually have a "target" and are not blindly swinging at cancer cells w/ non-specific chemo. Does the debate really stop at radonc=local/oligomet and medonc=systemic?
 
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